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Shifting standards for belief

StreetLogician
Posts: 54
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1/1/2013 3:40:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
In these forums I see similar themes being repeated by theists that I see at many other sites. They will insist that every last detail be provided for how every feature of an organism evolved. They, however, never provide any details of how God did it, let alone of why there must be a personal God. This thread is to turn the tables. I want the theists to explain in detail how God did it. How did God create the Universe? How did he create the diversity of life? I want details. It was magic is not details. I will be holding theists to the same standards they hold atheists. Why must there be a personal God? I want details. Why must a prime mover have a personality? Let's hear it.
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
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1/1/2013 3:44:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 3:40:55 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
In these forums I see similar themes being repeated by theists that I see at many other sites. They will insist that every last detail be provided for how every feature of an organism evolved. They, however, never provide any details of how God did it, let alone of why there must be a personal God. This thread is to turn the tables. I want the theists to explain in detail how God did it. How did God create the Universe? How did he create the diversity of life? I want details. It was magic is not details. I will be holding theists to the same standards they hold atheists. Why must there be a personal God? I want details. Why must a prime mover have a personality? Let's hear it.

It's easy for theist. An old guy with super powers can just spawn the creatures easily. I don't think any religion says God has done it in a complex process. Other questions I will leave to theists.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
StreetLogician
Posts: 54
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1/1/2013 3:48:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 3:44:51 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:40:55 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
In these forums I see similar themes being repeated by theists that I see at many other sites. They will insist that every last detail be provided for how every feature of an organism evolved. They, however, never provide any details of how God did it, let alone of why there must be a personal God. This thread is to turn the tables. I want the theists to explain in detail how God did it. How did God create the Universe? How did he create the diversity of life? I want details. It was magic is not details. I will be holding theists to the same standards they hold atheists. Why must there be a personal God? I want details. Why must a prime mover have a personality? Let's hear it.

It's easy for theist. An old guy with super powers can just spawn the creatures easily. I don't think any religion says God has done it in a complex process. Other questions I will leave to theists.

How does he spawn them? We are applying the same standards theists insist on from everyone else.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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1/1/2013 3:49:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 3:44:51 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
It's easy for theist. An old guy with super powers can just spawn the creatures easily. I don't think any religion says God has done it in a complex process.
Define "complex process."
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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1/1/2013 3:49:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The problem with some theists is their disability to say "I don't know". That's why they insert God or religious phenomena into all their gaps in knowledge about the universe. That gives them all the answers so that the atheist view seems ignorant and incomplete in contrast to theirs.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
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1/1/2013 3:49:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 3:48:33 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:44:51 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:40:55 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
In these forums I see similar themes being repeated by theists that I see at many other sites. They will insist that every last detail be provided for how every feature of an organism evolved. They, however, never provide any details of how God did it, let alone of why there must be a personal God. This thread is to turn the tables. I want the theists to explain in detail how God did it. How did God create the Universe? How did he create the diversity of life? I want details. It was magic is not details. I will be holding theists to the same standards they hold atheists. Why must there be a personal God? I want details. Why must a prime mover have a personality? Let's hear it.

It's easy for theist. An old guy with super powers can just spawn the creatures easily. I don't think any religion says God has done it in a complex process. Other questions I will leave to theists.

How does he spawn them? We are applying the same standards theists insist on from everyone else.

Theists have a simple answer. He can do whatever he wants, so he creates them out of thin air. No need for more explanation.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
StreetLogician
Posts: 54
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1/1/2013 3:52:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 3:49:37 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:48:33 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:44:51 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:40:55 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
In these forums I see similar themes being repeated by theists that I see at many other sites. They will insist that every last detail be provided for how every feature of an organism evolved. They, however, never provide any details of how God did it, let alone of why there must be a personal God. This thread is to turn the tables. I want the theists to explain in detail how God did it. How did God create the Universe? How did he create the diversity of life? I want details. It was magic is not details. I will be holding theists to the same standards they hold atheists. Why must there be a personal God? I want details. Why must a prime mover have a personality? Let's hear it.

It's easy for theist. An old guy with super powers can just spawn the creatures easily. I don't think any religion says God has done it in a complex process. Other questions I will leave to theists.

How does he spawn them? We are applying the same standards theists insist on from everyone else.

Theists have a simple answer. He can do whatever he wants, so he creates them out of thin air. No need for more explanation.

How is it that he can do anything? I am looking forward to the details.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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1/1/2013 3:52:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 3:49:03 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:44:51 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
It's easy for theist. An old guy with super powers can just spawn the creatures easily. I don't think any religion says God has done it in a complex process.
Define "complex process."
Yes please.
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
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1/1/2013 3:55:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 3:52:46 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:49:03 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:44:51 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
It's easy for theist. An old guy with super powers can just spawn the creatures easily. I don't think any religion says God has done it in a complex process.
Define "complex process."
Yes please.

What I meant to say is that I doubt any holy book or similar explains how God created organisms, if he's done it in a lot of steps. Like, create certain parts first or such. I'm not talking about the order of creating different organisms, but the order of creating organisms themselves.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
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1/1/2013 3:57:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 3:52:04 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:49:37 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:48:33 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:44:51 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:40:55 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
In these forums I see similar themes being repeated by theists that I see at many other sites. They will insist that every last detail be provided for how every feature of an organism evolved. They, however, never provide any details of how God did it, let alone of why there must be a personal God. This thread is to turn the tables. I want the theists to explain in detail how God did it. How did God create the Universe? How did he create the diversity of life? I want details. It was magic is not details. I will be holding theists to the same standards they hold atheists. Why must there be a personal God? I want details. Why must a prime mover have a personality? Let's hear it.

It's easy for theist. An old guy with super powers can just spawn the creatures easily. I don't think any religion says God has done it in a complex process. Other questions I will leave to theists.

How does he spawn them? We are applying the same standards theists insist on from everyone else.

Theists have a simple answer. He can do whatever he wants, so he creates them out of thin air. No need for more explanation.

How is it that he can do anything? I am looking forward to the details.

It's in God's nature. Not much explanation, again. That'd be like saying how is it red paint is red, it's in red paint's nature (lazy explanation). Theists need to set up the definition of God so you can argue against it. The definition includes omnipotent most of the time. If you wanna discuss the origin of definition, mot would resort to their holy book.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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1/1/2013 3:58:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 3:55:14 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:52:46 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:49:03 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:44:51 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
It's easy for theist. An old guy with super powers can just spawn the creatures easily. I don't think any religion says God has done it in a complex process.
Define "complex process."
Yes please.

What I meant to say is that I doubt any holy book or similar explains how God created organisms, if he's done it in a lot of steps. Like, create certain parts first or such. I'm not talking about the order of creating different organisms, but the order of creating organisms themselves.
No, they don't get into such specific details. There was no universal language used to describe complex processes. The holy books would be waste.
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
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1/1/2013 4:00:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 3:58:40 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:55:14 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:52:46 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:49:03 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:44:51 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
It's easy for theist. An old guy with super powers can just spawn the creatures easily. I don't think any religion says God has done it in a complex process.
Define "complex process."
Yes please.

What I meant to say is that I doubt any holy book or similar explains how God created organisms, if he's done it in a lot of steps. Like, create certain parts first or such. I'm not talking about the order of creating different organisms, but the order of creating organisms themselves.
No, they don't get into such specific details. There was no universal language used to describe complex processes. The holy books would be waste.

I don"t understand what you're trying to say. Complex is subjective, after all. What's complex to a 5 year old can seem obvious to a 10 year old.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
StreetLogician
Posts: 54
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1/1/2013 4:02:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 3:57:35 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:52:04 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:49:37 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:48:33 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:44:51 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:40:55 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
In these forums I see similar themes being repeated by theists that I see at many other sites. They will insist that every last detail be provided for how every feature of an organism evolved. They, however, never provide any details of how God did it, let alone of why there must be a personal God. This thread is to turn the tables. I want the theists to explain in detail how God did it. How did God create the Universe? How did he create the diversity of life? I want details. It was magic is not details. I will be holding theists to the same standards they hold atheists. Why must there be a personal God? I want details. Why must a prime mover have a personality? Let's hear it.

It's easy for theist. An old guy with super powers can just spawn the creatures easily. I don't think any religion says God has done it in a complex process. Other questions I will leave to theists.

How does he spawn them? We are applying the same standards theists insist on from everyone else.

Theists have a simple answer. He can do whatever he wants, so he creates them out of thin air. No need for more explanation.

How is it that he can do anything? I am looking forward to the details.

It's in God's nature. Not much explanation, again. That'd be like saying how is it red paint is red, it's in red paint's nature (lazy explanation). Theists need to set up the definition of God so you can argue against it. The definition includes omnipotent most of the time. If you wanna discuss the origin of definition, mot would resort to their holy book.

How is it in God's nature? A word can have a definition without there being anything that that definition applies to. I want theist to explain with close reasoning how their god has these powers.
StreetLogician
Posts: 54
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1/1/2013 4:06:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 3:55:14 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:52:46 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:49:03 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:44:51 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
It's easy for theist. An old guy with super powers can just spawn the creatures easily. I don't think any religion says God has done it in a complex process.
Define "complex process."
Yes please.

What I meant to say is that I doubt any holy book or similar explains how God created organisms, if he's done it in a lot of steps. Like, create certain parts first or such. I'm not talking about the order of creating different organisms, but the order of creating organisms themselves.

Theists have high standards for others surely they have high standards for themselves. If a partially incomplete explanation of evolution is unacceptable, surely a totally incomplete explanation of god is unacceptable.
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
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1/1/2013 4:10:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 4:02:13 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:57:35 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:52:04 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:49:37 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:48:33 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:44:51 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:40:55 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
In these forums I see similar themes being repeated by theists that I see at many other sites. They will insist that every last detail be provided for how every feature of an organism evolved. They, however, never provide any details of how God did it, let alone of why there must be a personal God. This thread is to turn the tables. I want the theists to explain in detail how God did it. How did God create the Universe? How did he create the diversity of life? I want details. It was magic is not details. I will be holding theists to the same standards they hold atheists. Why must there be a personal God? I want details. Why must a prime mover have a personality? Let's hear it.

It's easy for theist. An old guy with super powers can just spawn the creatures easily. I don't think any religion says God has done it in a complex process. Other questions I will leave to theists.

How does he spawn them? We are applying the same standards theists insist on from everyone else.

Theists have a simple answer. He can do whatever he wants, so he creates them out of thin air. No need for more explanation.

How is it that he can do anything? I am looking forward to the details.

It's in God's nature. Not much explanation, again. That'd be like saying how is it red paint is red, it's in red paint's nature (lazy explanation). Theists need to set up the definition of God so you can argue against it. The definition includes omnipotent most of the time. If you wanna discuss the origin of definition, mot would resort to their holy book.

How is it in God's nature? A word can have a definition without there being anything that that definition applies to. I want theist to explain with close reasoning how their god has these powers.

You cannot ask questions like that, because you don't have anything simpler to refer to. It's in the definition. Again, they get their definition from their holy book.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
StreetLogician
Posts: 54
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1/1/2013 4:33:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 4:10:58 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 4:02:13 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:57:35 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:52:04 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:49:37 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:48:33 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:44:51 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:40:55 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
In these forums I see similar themes being repeated by theists that I see at many other sites. They will insist that every last detail be provided for how every feature of an organism evolved. They, however, never provide any details of how God did it, let alone of why there must be a personal God. This thread is to turn the tables. I want the theists to explain in detail how God did it. How did God create the Universe? How did he create the diversity of life? I want details. It was magic is not details. I will be holding theists to the same standards they hold atheists. Why must there be a personal God? I want details. Why must a prime mover have a personality? Let's hear it.

It's easy for theist. An old guy with super powers can just spawn the creatures easily. I don't think any religion says God has done it in a complex process. Other questions I will leave to theists.

How does he spawn them? We are applying the same standards theists insist on from everyone else.

Theists have a simple answer. He can do whatever he wants, so he creates them out of thin air. No need for more explanation.

How is it that he can do anything? I am looking forward to the details.

It's in God's nature. Not much explanation, again. That'd be like saying how is it red paint is red, it's in red paint's nature (lazy explanation). Theists need to set up the definition of God so you can argue against it. The definition includes omnipotent most of the time. If you wanna discuss the origin of definition, mot would resort to their holy book.

How is it in God's nature? A word can have a definition without there being anything that that definition applies to. I want theist to explain with close reasoning how their god has these powers.

You cannot ask questions like that, because you don't have anything simpler to refer to. It's in the definition. Again, they get their definition from their holy book.

Elaborate on "you don't have anything simpler to refer to". And you do realize that having a definition does not mean there is anything that that definition applies to, right? Definitions are also not explanations. If they want people to believe what they spout than they should be able to defend what they say better than the competition. They have been getting away without explaining anything for so long they think it is a birth right.
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
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1/1/2013 4:40:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 4:33:22 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 4:10:58 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 4:02:13 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:57:35 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:52:04 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:49:37 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:48:33 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:44:51 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:40:55 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
In these forums I see similar themes being repeated by theists that I see at many other sites. They will insist that every last detail be provided for how every feature of an organism evolved. They, however, never provide any details of how God did it, let alone of why there must be a personal God. This thread is to turn the tables. I want the theists to explain in detail how God did it. How did God create the Universe? How did he create the diversity of life? I want details. It was magic is not details. I will be holding theists to the same standards they hold atheists. Why must there be a personal God? I want details. Why must a prime mover have a personality? Let's hear it.

It's easy for theist. An old guy with super powers can just spawn the creatures easily. I don't think any religion says God has done it in a complex process. Other questions I will leave to theists.

How does he spawn them? We are applying the same standards theists insist on from everyone else.

Theists have a simple answer. He can do whatever he wants, so he creates them out of thin air. No need for more explanation.

How is it that he can do anything? I am looking forward to the details.

It's in God's nature. Not much explanation, again. That'd be like saying how is it red paint is red, it's in red paint's nature (lazy explanation). Theists need to set up the definition of God so you can argue against it. The definition includes omnipotent most of the time. If you wanna discuss the origin of definition, mot would resort to their holy book.

How is it in God's nature? A word can have a definition without there being anything that that definition applies to. I want theist to explain with close reasoning how their god has these powers.

You cannot ask questions like that, because you don't have anything simpler to refer to. It's in the definition. Again, they get their definition from their holy book.

Elaborate on "you don't have anything simpler to refer to". And you do realize that having a definition does not mean there is anything that that definition applies to, right? Definitions are also not explanations. If they want people to believe what they spout than they should be able to defend what they say better than the competition. They have been getting away without explaining anything for so long they think it is a birth right.

Theist obviously debates for the God with the definition they've given. I don't see why'd you ask for an explanation of the definition, when they are arguing for the existence of the guy under that definition. Why would they have to explain why they're arguing for what they're arguing? I don't see your point, lol.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
StreetLogician
Posts: 54
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1/1/2013 4:48:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 4:40:25 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 4:33:22 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 4:10:58 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 4:02:13 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:57:35 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:52:04 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:49:37 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:48:33 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:44:51 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:40:55 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
In these forums I see similar themes being repeated by theists that I see at many other sites. They will insist that every last detail be provided for how every feature of an organism evolved. They, however, never provide any details of how God did it, let alone of why there must be a personal God. This thread is to turn the tables. I want the theists to explain in detail how God did it. How did God create the Universe? How did he create the diversity of life? I want details. It was magic is not details. I will be holding theists to the same standards they hold atheists. Why must there be a personal God? I want details. Why must a prime mover have a personality? Let's hear it.

It's easy for theist. An old guy with super powers can just spawn the creatures easily. I don't think any religion says God has done it in a complex process. Other questions I will leave to theists.

How does he spawn them? We are applying the same standards theists insist on from everyone else.

Theists have a simple answer. He can do whatever he wants, so he creates them out of thin air. No need for more explanation.

How is it that he can do anything? I am looking forward to the details.

It's in God's nature. Not much explanation, again. That'd be like saying how is it red paint is red, it's in red paint's nature (lazy explanation). Theists need to set up the definition of God so you can argue against it. The definition includes omnipotent most of the time. If you wanna discuss the origin of definition, mot would resort to their holy book.

How is it in God's nature? A word can have a definition without there being anything that that definition applies to. I want theist to explain with close reasoning how their god has these powers.

You cannot ask questions like that, because you don't have anything simpler to refer to. It's in the definition. Again, they get their definition from their holy book.

Elaborate on "you don't have anything simpler to refer to". And you do realize that having a definition does not mean there is anything that that definition applies to, right? Definitions are also not explanations. If they want people to believe what they spout than they should be able to defend what they say better than the competition. They have been getting away without explaining anything for so long they think it is a birth right.


Theist obviously debates for the God with the definition they've given. I don't see why'd you ask for an explanation of the definition, when they are arguing for the existence of the guy under that definition. Why would they have to explain why they're arguing for what they're arguing? I don't see your point, lol.

I am not asking for an explanation of their definition. I am asking for an explanation of how they know something meets the criteria.
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
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1/1/2013 5:03:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 4:48:44 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 4:40:25 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 4:33:22 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 4:10:58 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 4:02:13 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:57:35 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:52:04 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:49:37 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:48:33 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:44:51 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 1/1/2013 3:40:55 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
In these forums I see similar themes being repeated by theists that I see at many other sites. They will insist that every last detail be provided for how every feature of an organism evolved. They, however, never provide any details of how God did it, let alone of why there must be a personal God. This thread is to turn the tables. I want the theists to explain in detail how God did it. How did God create the Universe? How did he create the diversity of life? I want details. It was magic is not details. I will be holding theists to the same standards they hold atheists. Why must there be a personal God? I want details. Why must a prime mover have a personality? Let's hear it.

It's easy for theist. An old guy with super powers can just spawn the creatures easily. I don't think any religion says God has done it in a complex process. Other questions I will leave to theists.

How does he spawn them? We are applying the same standards theists insist on from everyone else.

Theists have a simple answer. He can do whatever he wants, so he creates them out of thin air. No need for more explanation.

How is it that he can do anything? I am looking forward to the details.

It's in God's nature. Not much explanation, again. That'd be like saying how is it red paint is red, it's in red paint's nature (lazy explanation). Theists need to set up the definition of God so you can argue against it. The definition includes omnipotent most of the time. If you wanna discuss the origin of definition, mot would resort to their holy book.

How is it in God's nature? A word can have a definition without there being anything that that definition applies to. I want theist to explain with close reasoning how their god has these powers.

You cannot ask questions like that, because you don't have anything simpler to refer to. It's in the definition. Again, they get their definition from their holy book.

Elaborate on "you don't have anything simpler to refer to". And you do realize that having a definition does not mean there is anything that that definition applies to, right? Definitions are also not explanations. If they want people to believe what they spout than they should be able to defend what they say better than the competition. They have been getting away without explaining anything for so long they think it is a birth right.


Theist obviously debates for the God with the definition they've given. I don't see why'd you ask for an explanation of the definition, when they are arguing for the existence of the guy under that definition. Why would they have to explain why they're arguing for what they're arguing? I don't see your point, lol.

I am not asking for an explanation of their definition. I am asking for an explanation of how they know something meets the criteria.

How they know something fits the criteria of their definition? Thy don't form a definition, and then decide something meets its criteria, they form a definition on what they've read from their holy book.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
Dogknox
Posts: 5,075
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1/1/2013 6:08:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
StreetLogician God' ways are not our ways!!

John 1:1
[ The Word Became Flesh ] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

StreetLogician Looks to me; God spoke and the world came into being, just as simple as that!

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Revelation 19:12
His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

StreetLogician How did God create???
Answer is: He creates with his words!!
"Let there be light" and guess what??? There was light!!!

Dogknox
Composer
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1/1/2013 6:22:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The total combined legitimate evidence a single word in ANY acclaimed ' holy-text ' came from a literal Supernatural being(s) remains a constant zero!

Hence you can all continue quoting from ones own preferred Story book, but at the end of the day; ALL you are doing is quoting 100% human concocted unsubstantiated speculation concerning some humans devised mythical beings!

QED
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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1/1/2013 6:46:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 3:40:55 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
In these forums I see similar themes being repeated by theists that I see at many other sites. They will insist that every last detail be provided for how every feature of an organism evolved. They, however, never provide any details of how God did it, let alone of why there must be a personal God. This thread is to turn the tables. I want the theists to explain in detail how God did it. How did God create the Universe? How did he create the diversity of life? I want details. It was magic is not details. I will be holding theists to the same standards they hold atheists. Why must there be a personal God? I want details. Why must a prime mover have a personality? Let's hear it.

That's an easy answer for the person who understands the theologians project of doing science; to discover how God did it.

Anselm said "ours is a faith which seeks understanding."

In this way, the theist is free to be open to following the evidence where it leads. And as Plantinga argues in his book, Where the Conflict Really Lies, there's deep concord between Science & Christianity despite the superficial conflict (naturalism) is perceived between Evolution & Christianity. But, there turns out to be deep conflict between naturalism & Evolution, despite its superficial concord.

If Plantinga is right, then Science makes more sense in light of theism than naturalistic atheism (even though some self-declared arbiters of science will pretend science is strictly conquered by, and a project for: the naturalist- no theists allowed. On the contrary, the naturalists can only be visitors here).
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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1/1/2013 7:19:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 3:40:55 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
In these forums I see similar themes being repeated by theists that I see at many other sites. They will insist that every last detail be provided for how every feature of an organism evolved. They, however, never provide any details of how God did it, let alone of why there must be a personal God. This thread is to turn the tables. I want the theists to explain in detail how God did it. How did God create the Universe? How did he create the diversity of life? I want details. It was magic is not details. I will be holding theists to the same standards they hold atheists. Why must there be a personal God? I want details. Why must a prime mover have a personality? Let's hear it.

I once heard it said on here Science can't compete with Magic.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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1/1/2013 7:25:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/1/2013 3:40:55 PM, StreetLogician wrote:
In these forums I see similar themes being repeated by theists that I see at many other sites. They will insist that every last detail be provided for how every feature of an organism evolved.

I'm a theist and I could care less about how every feature of an organism evolved haha.

They, however, never provide any details of how God did it, let alone of why there must be a personal God.

That's because we don't know specifics and don't need to. As for a personal God there are a few arguments for that. I believe the ontological would do that as well as for Christianity the argument from the resurrection would for sure do that.

This thread is to turn the tables. I want the theists to explain in detail how God did it. How did God create the Universe?

He just created it.

How did he create the diversity of life? I want details.

I'm not really that interested in the details, but I'll ask Him when I see Him.

It was magic is not details. I will be holding theists to the same standards they hold atheists. Why must there be a personal God? I want details. Why must a prime mover have a personality? Let's hear it.

I think I did that. Let me know if my answers are not satisfactory.
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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1/2/2013 5:11:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Questions are pointless. They ignore the reality. Experience is what is. Questions are not. Answering a question does not give you answers but rather more questions so on and so forth. So do not ask the question in the first place, but rather, exist and experience existence itself. The enlightened are those who go beyond questioning and to reality itself.

The world goes in circles and not in a straight line. Nothing is linear. Chaos and order are in balance, yet a part of each other. Yin-yang. Without them there is nothing.

What is god, you ask? How does god do it, you ask? That is not for me too answer but rather for you to answer for yourself.

Experience, do not ask questions.
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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1/2/2013 5:13:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/2/2013 5:11:47 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
Questions are pointless. They ignore the reality. Experience is what is. Questions are not. Answering a question does not give you answers but rather more questions so on and so forth. So do not ask the question in the first place, but rather, exist and experience existence itself. The enlightened are those who go beyond questioning and to reality itself.

The world goes in circles and not in a straight line. Nothing is linear. Chaos and order are in balance, yet a part of each other. Yin-yang. Without them there is nothing.

What is god, you ask? How does god do it, you ask? That is not for me too answer but rather for you to answer for yourself.

Experience, do not ask questions.

Ask yourself "who am I?" and see where you get.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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1/2/2013 6:29:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I always crack a little smile when someone says, either implicitly or explicitly says they don't care, they don't need to know, or that there is no point or reason in looking into or questioning something any further...

It pulls us back into the cave, and stands as the complete antithesis of the grandest achievements of the human spirit.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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1/2/2013 7:50:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/2/2013 6:29:44 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
I always crack a little smile when someone says, either implicitly or explicitly says they don't care, they don't need to know, or that there is no point or reason in looking into or questioning something any further...

It pulls us back into the cave, and stands as the complete antithesis of the grandest achievements of the human spirit.

There are certain things we don't know and don't really matter though haha.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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1/2/2013 7:59:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/2/2013 7:50:19 PM, stubs wrote:
At 1/2/2013 6:29:44 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
I always crack a little smile when someone says, either implicitly or explicitly says they don't care, they don't need to know, or that there is no point or reason in looking into or questioning something any further...

It pulls us back into the cave, and stands as the complete antithesis of the grandest achievements of the human spirit.

There are certain things we don't know and don't really matter though haha.

We never know whether something matters or not, until we know it. That is the beauty of science, discovery and our need to understand the world around us.

Also, this is why I will oppose at every turn any attempt to push a philosophy of ignorance, that it is 'okay' not to continually question, experiment and discover.

Our entire modern world is built on, and continues to be built on explained and understood principles that were previously defined as 'Gods purview, and thus unexplainable.' if all humans had listened and respected the 'God did it' argument, we would still be shivering in caves.

If we are going to survive as a species, this is going to have to continue, regardless of whether or not we see that the majesty of creation around us, happens to disagree with a 3-4000 year old book.
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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1/2/2013 8:03:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/2/2013 6:29:44 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
I always crack a little smile when someone says, either implicitly or explicitly says they don't care, they don't need to know, or that there is no point or reason in looking into or questioning something any further...

It pulls us back into the cave, and stands as the complete antithesis of the grandest achievements of the human spirit.

You remind me of this story...

Wujin Chang, a nun, asked the Sixth Zen patriarch, Hui Neng, for help in understanding the Mahanirvana Sutra. The master answered that he could not read, but if the nun would read it aloud for him, he would do his best to help her.

The nun then asked, "If you can't even read the words, how can you understand the truth behind them?"

"Truth and words are unrelated. Truth can be compared to the moon," answered Hui Neng, pointing to the moon with his finger, "And words can be compared to a finger. I can use my finger to point out the moon, but my finger is not the moon, and you don't need my finger in order to be able to see the moon"

The truth lies beyond your questions and words. The truth is what is. The more you question, the farther you get from it.