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So, would I go to hell?

The_Toucan_Man
Posts: 8
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1/3/2013 6:07:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I have a question for my Christian friends here on DDO.

First off, I've joined the site very recently and have found it very interesting.

Now, on to the actual question.

As an atheist, if I were to die right now, would I go to hell?
I'm a good person. I cross my t's and dot my i's. I try my best to help others and to make good choices in life.

Would an omnibenevolent God seriously have such self-esteem issues that he would have to burn me in hell (or allow me to burn in hell) eternally just because I do not believe that he exists? Isn't an infinite punishment for a finite crime infinitely unjust? Especially when God "programmed" me to to think logically and to be able to sin in the first place?

How could you function in heaven knowing that literally billions of nonbelievers (evil crooks like Gandhi) are being tormented... FOREVER just because of one lifetime of nonbelief/sin?

If God makes or even allows people to be tortured eternally and by definition of omnipotence, could do something about it, isn't he definitely not omnibenevolent?

I forgive people all the time. Why can't he forgive me for a "crime" that in comparison to an omnipotent God would be almost unnoticable to him?

When an ant bites my toes, I don't torture it mercilessly forever.
Franz_Reynard
Posts: 1,227
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1/3/2013 6:09:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/3/2013 6:07:51 PM, The_Toucan_Man wrote:

As an atheist, if I were to die right now, would I go to hell?
I'm a good person. I cross my t's and dot my i's. I try my best to help others and to make good choices in life.

As far as I know about what's stated in the Bible, all things considered, it is safe to believe that god would accept you into Heaven, whatever sort of state of being that may be.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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1/3/2013 6:23:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/3/2013 6:07:51 PM, The_Toucan_Man wrote:
I have a question for my Christian friends here on DDO.

First off, I've joined the site very recently and have found it very interesting.

Now, on to the actual question.

As an atheist, if I were to die right now, would I go to hell?
I'm a good person. I cross my t's and dot my i's. I try my best to help others and to make good choices in life.

Would an omnibenevolent God seriously have such self-esteem issues that he would have to burn me in hell (or allow me to burn in hell) eternally just because I do not believe that he exists? Isn't an infinite punishment for a finite crime infinitely unjust? Especially when God "programmed" me to to think logically and to be able to sin in the first place?

How could you function in heaven knowing that literally billions of nonbelievers (evil crooks like Gandhi) are being tormented... FOREVER just because of one lifetime of nonbelief/sin?

If God makes or even allows people to be tortured eternally and by definition of omnipotence, could do something about it, isn't he definitely not omnibenevolent?

I forgive people all the time. Why can't he forgive me for a "crime" that in comparison to an omnipotent God would be almost unnoticable to him?

When an ant bites my toes, I don't torture it mercilessly forever.

I was bought up as a 'Sermon on the mount/Jesus teaching' Christian, rather than a 'Leviticus and Paul' Christian. (I'm not any more)

My parents and church believed that it's not necessarily believing in Jesus that sends you to heaven, but believing in his message. Jesus was pretty big up on his metaphors.

Jesus was also pretty big on spelling out what was important, he always gave more credence to treating people right, and being nice than he ever was with the fire and brimstone simply for not believing that he was the son of God.
TheAntidoter
Posts: 4,323
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1/3/2013 6:24:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/3/2013 6:07:51 PM, The_Toucan_Man wrote:
I have a question for my Christian friends here on DDO.

First off, I've joined the site very recently and have found it very interesting.

Now, on to the actual question.

As an atheist, if I were to die right now, would I go to hell?
I'm a good person. I cross my t's and dot my i's. I try my best to help others and to make good choices in life.

Would an omnibenevolent God seriously have such self-esteem issues that he would have to burn me in hell (or allow me to burn in hell) eternally just because I do not believe that he exists? Isn't an infinite punishment for a finite crime infinitely unjust? Especially when God "programmed" me to to think logically and to be able to sin in the first place?

How could you function in heaven knowing that literally billions of nonbelievers (evil crooks like Gandhi) are being tormented... FOREVER just because of one lifetime of nonbelief/sin?

If God makes or even allows people to be tortured eternally and by definition of omnipotence, could do something about it, isn't he definitely not omnibenevolent?

I forgive people all the time. Why can't he forgive me for a "crime" that in comparison to an omnipotent God would be almost unnoticable to him?

When an ant bites my toes, I don't torture it mercilessly forever.

Don't say you have a "question" if you have 5.
Affinity: Fire
Class: Human
Abilities: ????

Nac.

WOAH, COLORED FONT!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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1/3/2013 6:29:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/3/2013 6:07:51 PM, The_Toucan_Man wrote:
I have a question for my Christian friends here on DDO.

First off, I've joined the site very recently and have found it very interesting.

Now, on to the actual question.

As an atheist, if I were to die right now, would I go to hell?

Maybe.

I'm a good person. I cross my t's and dot my i's. I try my best to help others and to make good choices in life.

Would an omnibenevolent God seriously have such self-esteem issues that he would have to burn me in hell (or allow me to burn in hell) eternally just because I do not believe that he exists? Isn't an infinite punishment for a finite crime infinitely unjust? Especially when God "programmed" me to to think logically and to be able to sin in the first place?

How could you function in heaven knowing that literally billions of nonbelievers (evil crooks like Gandhi) are being tormented... FOREVER just because of one lifetime of nonbelief/sin?

If God makes or even allows people to be tortured eternally and by definition of omnipotence, could do something about it, isn't he definitely not omnibenevolent?

I forgive people all the time. Why can't he forgive me for a "crime" that in comparison to an omnipotent God would be almost unnoticable to him?

When an ant bites my toes, I don't torture it mercilessly forever.

I don't believe hell is eternal, so...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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1/3/2013 7:04:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/3/2013 6:07:51 PM, The_Toucan_Man wrote:
I have a question for my Christian friends here on DDO.

First off, I've joined the site very recently and have found it very interesting.

Now, on to the actual question.

As an atheist, if I were to die right now, would I go to hell?
I'm a good person. I cross my t's and dot my i's. I try my best to help others and to make good choices in life.

Would an omnibenevolent God seriously have such self-esteem issues that he would have to burn me in hell (or allow me to burn in hell) eternally just because I do not believe that he exists? Isn't an infinite punishment for a finite crime infinitely unjust? Especially when God "programmed" me to to think logically and to be able to sin in the first place?

How could you function in heaven knowing that literally billions of nonbelievers (evil crooks like Gandhi) are being tormented... FOREVER just because of one lifetime of nonbelief/sin?

If God makes or even allows people to be tortured eternally and by definition of omnipotence, could do something about it, isn't he definitely not omnibenevolent?

I forgive people all the time. Why can't he forgive me for a "crime" that in comparison to an omnipotent God would be almost unnoticable to him?

When an ant bites my toes, I don't torture it mercilessly forever.

The Christian message isn't that only good people go to spend eternity with God, and that bad ones are thrown into an abyss. That's a story-book Children's bible school lesson of the afterlife.

Rather, hell was meant for the fallen angels- the agents who knew God's glory and still freely chose a life without him.

Hell isn't a torture rack in a fire created by God. It is simply an absence of him.

We were obviously created at a certain epistemic distance from God (and look at how THAT'S turning out, even WITH redemption), but we can still know him ""if but through a glass, then we shall see face to face."

So eternal life with God is to see him and his creation in full, free from the psychological, physical & noetic effects of sin that enslave us daily.

This brings me to the two ways to pursue our human purpose of happiness: True Love is the way of Divine Love, & false love- a counterfeit of the just way to pursue happiness.

Complete happiness must be sought with the former. Such Love is oriented to God & others, is commitment-based where happiness follows welcomed as a by-product, where God"s standard of justice doesn"t lower but Grace enables us to meet meet it. This God of true Love is worthy of worship which itself upgrades our capacity for intimacy & freedom. This then is the paradigm of genuine Love, for such Love involves the Law of Accelerating Returns.

But if our pursuit of happiness is of a false love, an unjust path, then such a path to happiness is a counterfeit: A self-oriented, satisfaction-based life where commitment follows un-welcomed as a by-product. A choice of false love almost always involves a movement towards sexual immorality & rejects Grace thereby disabling us to meet God"s standard of justice. False love yields for us a worship disorder which degrades our capacity for intimacy. This then is the corruption of genuine Love, for such a counterfeit involves the Law of Diminishing Returns.

I've no doubt that in an afterlife where a person freely chose not-God, they'll get just that and will, logically, be so enslaved by there counterfeit love that they just ever repel from God and his ways until the very last ounce of unjust happiness is found, then perhaps, with no possible purpose remaining, this person, this mind or soul is necessarily annihilated.

Hence it's not God who imposes fire & brimstone upon those who choose a life of self destruction, it's just that God knows his creation so well that this is the end result of a life without him.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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1/3/2013 7:30:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/3/2013 6:07:51 PM, The_Toucan_Man wrote:
As an atheist, if I were to die right now, would I go to hell?

Yes.

I'm a good person. I cross my t's and dot my i's. I try my best to help others and to make good choices in life.

It's not enough to "try your best." You have to actually succeed in being perfect to avoid being punished. It's kind of like traffic laws. You could be a perfect driving your whole life, then get one speeding ticket, and because of that one speeding ticket, you have to pay a fine. You don't get off from the speeding ticket just because you obeyed the traffic laws most other days.

Would an omnibenevolent God seriously have such self-esteem issues that he would have to burn me in hell (or allow me to burn in hell) eternally just because I do not believe that he exists?

God doesn't have self-esteem issues. Quite the opposite. He has the highest possible esteem of himself than anyone could have. But I don't see how his self-esteem is relevant.

Also, God doesn't punish people just for not believing in him. He punishes people for their sins.

Isn't an infinite punishment for a finite crime infinitely unjust?

The time it takes to commit a crime has nothing to do with the time you ought to be punished. It might take a solid five minutes to rob a house, but it only takes a couple of seconds to commit a murder. Yet murder is worse than burglary.

Especially when God "programmed" me to to think logically and to be able to sin in the first place?

As long as you sin on purpose, you're accountable for your actions regardless of how you came to have sinful desires.

How could you function in heaven knowing that literally billions of nonbelievers (evil crooks like Gandhi) are being tormented... FOREVER just because of one lifetime of nonbelief/sin?

I don't know.

If God makes or even allows people to be tortured eternally and by definition of omnipotence, could do something about it, isn't he definitely not omnibenevolent?

If being "omnibenevolent" means God never punishes anybody for anything, then I would agree that God is no omnibenevolent if anybody has to suffer in hell. The Bible does not portray God as being omnibenevolent in that sense.

I forgive people all the time. Why can't he forgive me for a "crime" that in comparison to an omnipotent God would be almost unnoticable to him?

Nothing is unnoticeable to God. But God is in a unique position as governor of the universe. It would be a contradiction for God to both forbid something and allow it at the same time. But if God demanded that you do X, and never held you to it, then that's essentially what he'd be doing. He'd be saying, "You must do X," while at the same time saying, "But you don't have to do X."
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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1/3/2013 7:39:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hell isn't a burning eternal torment.

It's an eternal separation from God. If you don't move to be united with God yes, you will be left apart from him for eternity.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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1/3/2013 7:48:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/3/2013 7:39:27 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Hell isn't a burning eternal torment.

It's an eternal separation from God. If you don't move to be united with God yes, you will be left apart from him for eternity.

Oh that old chestnut.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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1/3/2013 8:08:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/3/2013 6:09:07 PM, Franz_Reynard wrote:
At 1/3/2013 6:07:51 PM, The_Toucan_Man wrote:

As an atheist, if I were to die right now, would I go to hell?
I'm a good person. I cross my t's and dot my i's. I try my best to help others and to make good choices in life.

As far as I know about what's stated in the Bible, all things considered, it is safe to believe that god would accept you into Heaven, whatever sort of state of being that may be.

The bible Story book itself refutes the notion of a ' heaven going ' for ANY believer, even IF a genuine believer could be found inside or outside of Story book Land?

xtianity is a lie from the get go!
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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1/3/2013 8:10:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/3/2013 7:48:52 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 1/3/2013 7:39:27 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Hell isn't a burning eternal torment.

It's an eternal separation from God. If you don't move to be united with God yes, you will be left apart from him for eternity.

Oh that old chestnut.

Do you believe in a literal fiery hell? I'll debate you on it if you do.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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1/3/2013 8:14:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/3/2013 7:04:28 PM, Apeiron wrote:
Rather, hell was meant for the fallen angels- the agents who knew God's glory and still freely chose a life without him.

Story book fantasy!

The Cyclic reasoning formulation I have presented proves Literal evil spirit being angels is a none sense.

1. For the wages of sin [is] death; . . . (Rom. 6:23) KJV Story book

2. ALL spirit angels never die (Luke 20:36) KJV Story book (Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; . . . .)

If you can never die, then you can never sin!

Hence NO naughty fallen spirit angel beings In or OUT of bible Story book Land!
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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1/3/2013 9:08:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/3/2013 8:14:14 PM, Composer wrote:
At 1/3/2013 7:04:28 PM, Apeiron wrote:
Rather, hell was meant for the fallen angels- the agents who knew God's glory and still freely chose a life without him.

Story book fantasy!

Yeah you just don't like the word angel. And I get that, but here we're presupposing the truth of what the bible teaches.

The Cyclic reasoning formulation I have presented proves Literal evil spirit being angels is a none sense.

1. For the wages of sin [is] death; . . . (Rom. 6:23) KJV Story book

2. ALL spirit angels never die (Luke 20:36) KJV Story book (Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; . . . .)

If you can never die, then you can never sin!

Hence NO naughty fallen spirit angel beings In or OUT of bible Story book Land!

You're trying to disprove fallen angels with this? ... even if your out-of-context interpretation were true it still wouldn't follow that fallen angels are 'non-sense.'?

Even so, #1 is in the context of spiritual death- and so it's at least questionable if 'death' is physical death here, as opposed to spiritual dying (separation from God).

The context of this verse is easily read as Paul's positive use of the metaphor of slavery to God or to sin (Slavery's pervasiveness in ancient times was different than the racial type we reject today- nevertheless slavery as a metaphor was useful for conveying Paul's point graphically). Either you're a slave to God, a good God of grace who died to free humanity from your only other possible slave master- sin, a malicious evil slave master.

God grants his 'slaves' eternal life & freedom from sins destructive power. Hence sin pays death wages; God grants life. THAT was the point of this verse, but way to play the ignorant atheist card and take it completely out of context.

It's going against your case to call the Bible a "story book" - it makes it seem how insincere and close-minded you are from the get-go. Even sort of Trolly.

No doubt there are stories in the Bible as metaphor for teaching spiritual or moral lessons, and stories as parables for teaching a deep theological message, etc. But to group the entire library (which is treated as a historical document in many cases, Mark for example) as a story book- implies you merely have a "story book" understanding of the library, as most preschoolers do... this says to me that your theological understanding never grew up from the children's bible school faith you reject today as a lifetime's straw-man.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,039
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1/3/2013 10:37:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/3/2013 6:07:51 PM, The_Toucan_Man wrote:
I have a question for my Christian friends here on DDO.

First off, I've joined the site very recently and have found it very interesting.

Now, on to the actual question.

As an atheist, if I were to die right now, would I go to hell?
I'm a good person. I cross my t's and dot my i's. I try my best to help others and to make good choices in life.

Would an omnibenevolent God seriously have such self-esteem issues that he would have to burn me in hell (or allow me to burn in hell) eternally just because I do not believe that he exists? Isn't an infinite punishment for a finite crime infinitely unjust? Especially when God "programmed" me to to think logically and to be able to sin in the first place?

How could you function in heaven knowing that literally billions of nonbelievers (evil crooks like Gandhi) are being tormented... FOREVER just because of one lifetime of nonbelief/sin?

If God makes or even allows people to be tortured eternally and by definition of omnipotence, could do something about it, isn't he definitely not omnibenevolent?

I forgive people all the time. Why can't he forgive me for a "crime" that in comparison to an omnipotent God would be almost unnoticable to him?

When an ant bites my toes, I don't torture it mercilessly forever.
The_Toucan_Man What you forget is "Jesus is the Judge"!
You seems worried that somehow God is not a just judge??!

Dogknox
Dogknox
Posts: 5,039
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1/3/2013 10:44:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/3/2013 6:29:58 PM, The_Toucan_Manwrote:
At 1/3/2013 6:07:51 PM, The_Toucan_Man wrote:
I have a question for my Christian friends here on DDO.

First off, I've joined the site very recently and have found it very interesting.

Now, on to the actual question.

As an atheist, if I were to die right now, would I go to hell?

Maybe.

I'm a good person. I cross my t's and dot my i's. I try my best to help others and to make good choices in life.

Would an omnibenevolent God seriously have such self-esteem issues that he would have to burn me in hell (or allow me to burn in hell) eternally just because I do not believe that he exists? Isn't an infinite punishment for a finite crime infinitely unjust? Especially when God "programmed" me to to think logically and to be able to sin in the first place?

How could you function in heaven knowing that literally billions of nonbelievers (evil crooks like Gandhi) are being tormented... FOREVER just because of one lifetime of nonbelief/sin?

If God makes or even allows people to be tortured eternally and by definition of omnipotence, could do something about it, isn't he definitely not omnibenevolent?

I forgive people all the time. Why can't he forgive me for a "crime" that in comparison to an omnipotent God would be almost unnoticable to him?

When an ant bites my toes, I don't torture it mercilessly forever.

I don't believe hell is eternal, so...
popculturepooka You don't; believe hell is eternal??
You reject the scriptures to believe what you do!

Scriptures tell you; "Hell is eternal"!
You reject the scriptures thus you condemn yourself!!

John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

popculturepooka The scriptures tell you (above) rejecting Jesus is done by not accepting his words, the scriptures!

You are forced to reject Jesus and the scriptures Jesus' words to reject; "Eternal hell"!

Dogknox
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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1/3/2013 10:56:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/3/2013 10:44:45 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 1/3/2013 6:29:58 PM, The_Toucan_Manwrote:
At 1/3/2013 6:07:51 PM, The_Toucan_Man wrote:
I have a question for my Christian friends here on DDO.

First off, I've joined the site very recently and have found it very interesting.

Now, on to the actual question.

As an atheist, if I were to die right now, would I go to hell?

Maybe.

I'm a good person. I cross my t's and dot my i's. I try my best to help others and to make good choices in life.

Would an omnibenevolent God seriously have such self-esteem issues that he would have to burn me in hell (or allow me to burn in hell) eternally just because I do not believe that he exists? Isn't an infinite punishment for a finite crime infinitely unjust? Especially when God "programmed" me to to think logically and to be able to sin in the first place?

How could you function in heaven knowing that literally billions of nonbelievers (evil crooks like Gandhi) are being tormented... FOREVER just because of one lifetime of nonbelief/sin?

If God makes or even allows people to be tortured eternally and by definition of omnipotence, could do something about it, isn't he definitely not omnibenevolent?

I forgive people all the time. Why can't he forgive me for a "crime" that in comparison to an omnipotent God would be almost unnoticable to him?

When an ant bites my toes, I don't torture it mercilessly forever.

I don't believe hell is eternal, so...
popculturepooka You don't; believe hell is eternal??
You reject the scriptures to believe what you do!

Scriptures tell you; "Hell is eternal"!
You reject the scriptures thus you condemn yourself!!

John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

popculturepooka The scriptures tell you (above) rejecting Jesus is done by not accepting his words, the scriptures!

You are forced to reject Jesus and the scriptures Jesus' words to reject; "Eternal hell"!

Dogknox

Is that right? Want to formally debate me on that?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Dogknox
Posts: 5,039
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1/4/2013 9:48:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/3/2013 10:56:24 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 1/3/2013 10:44:45 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 1/3/2013 6:29:58 PM, The_Toucan_Manwrote:
At 1/3/2013 6:07:51 PM, The_Toucan_Man wrote:
I have a question for my Christian friends here on DDO.

First off, I've joined the site very recently and have found it very interesting.

Now, on to the actual question.

As an atheist, if I were to die right now, would I go to hell?

Maybe.

I'm a good person. I cross my t's and dot my i's. I try my best to help others and to make good choices in life.

Would an omnibenevolent God seriously have such self-esteem issues that he would have to burn me in hell (or allow me to burn in hell) eternally just because I do not believe that he exists? Isn't an infinite punishment for a finite crime infinitely unjust? Especially when God "programmed" me to to think logically and to be able to sin in the first place?

How could you function in heaven knowing that literally billions of nonbelievers (evil crooks like Gandhi) are being tormented... FOREVER just because of one lifetime of nonbelief/sin?

If God makes or even allows people to be tortured eternally and by definition of omnipotence, could do something about it, isn't he definitely not omnibenevolent?

I forgive people all the time. Why can't he forgive me for a "crime" that in comparison to an omnipotent God would be almost unnoticable to him?

When an ant bites my toes, I don't torture it mercilessly forever.

I don't believe hell is eternal, so...
popculturepooka You don't; believe hell is eternal??
You reject the scriptures to believe what you do!

Scriptures tell you; "Hell is eternal"!
You reject the scriptures thus you condemn yourself!!

John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

popculturepooka The scriptures tell you (above) rejecting Jesus is done by not accepting his words, the scriptures!

You are forced to reject Jesus and the scriptures Jesus' words to reject; "Eternal hell"!

Dogknox

Is that right? Want to formally debate me on that?

popculturepooka "You want a debate"?!
You would be arguing with the SCRIPTURES!
You would be arguing with the Early Church Father's!
I post the scriptures... I am CHRISTIAN.. Christians believe the scriptures we do not reject them!!

Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

Eternal fire!!
.....................................................................
DICTIONARY DOT COM
Eternal:
1. without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing ( opposed to temporal ): eternal life.
2. perpetual; ceaseless; endless: eternal quarreling; eternal chatter.
.....................................................................

Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Eternal punishment!!

Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

popculturepooka You would have to reject the scriptures to say anything different....
I am not rejecting the scriptures... They speak for me!

Dogknox
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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1/4/2013 9:48:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/3/2013 6:07:51 PM, The_Toucan_Man wrote:
I have a question for my Christian friends here on DDO.

First off, I've joined the site very recently and have found it very interesting.

Now, on to the actual question.

As an atheist, if I were to die right now, would I go to hell?
I'm a good person. I cross my t's and dot my i's. I try my best to help others and to make good choices in life.

Would an omnibenevolent God seriously have such self-esteem issues that he would have to burn me in hell (or allow me to burn in hell) eternally just because I do not believe that he exists? Isn't an infinite punishment for a finite crime infinitely unjust? Especially when God "programmed" me to to think logically and to be able to sin in the first place?

How could you function in heaven knowing that literally billions of nonbelievers (evil crooks like Gandhi) are being tormented... FOREVER just because of one lifetime of nonbelief/sin?

If God makes or even allows people to be tortured eternally and by definition of omnipotence, could do something about it, isn't he definitely not omnibenevolent?

I forgive people all the time. Why can't he forgive me for a "crime" that in comparison to an omnipotent God would be almost unnoticable to him?

When an ant bites my toes, I don't torture it mercilessly forever.

God will do what he does. Nobody can know.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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1/4/2013 9:52:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/4/2013 9:48:11 AM, Dogknox wrote:
Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

Eternal fire!!
.....................................................................
DICTIONARY DOT COM
Eternal:
1. without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing ( opposed to temporal ): eternal life.
2. perpetual; ceaseless; endless: eternal quarreling; eternal chatter.
.....................................................................

That's a clear translation fallacy. You can't take the definition of the of the translated English word and apply that definition to the Greek word.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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1/4/2013 10:41:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/3/2013 8:10:25 PM, stubs wrote:
At 1/3/2013 7:48:52 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 1/3/2013 7:39:27 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Hell isn't a burning eternal torment.

It's an eternal separation from God. If you don't move to be united with God yes, you will be left apart from him for eternity.

Oh that old chestnut.

Do you believe in a literal fiery hell? I'll debate you on it if you do.

I don't beleive in Hell at all.

However, the reason I find it particularly amusing, is that is an argument trying to resolve a loving God with the concept of Hell by burdening the fundamental reason people are being punsihed on the person themselves, as if people are chosing their fate as if conciously picking an item from menu. Such an explanation is only to ignore the real issue.

Hell, permanent punishment (even if it is passive rather than active punishment) makes no sense whatsoever, and is not reconcileable with a loving and just God.
Df0512
Posts: 966
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1/4/2013 10:53:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I' have posed that questions many times as well and all I ever got was "yes, your goign to hell" lol. I just dont see how anyone can take these answers seriously. We are talking about one book, yet it seems like there are so many different answers. Who is right?
The_Toucan_Man
Posts: 8
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1/4/2013 11:33:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/3/2013 7:30:21 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/3/2013 6:07:51 PM, The_Toucan_Man wrote:
As an atheist, if I were to die right now, would I go to hell?

Yes.

Read Matthew 7:1



It's not enough to "try your best." You have to actually succeed in being perfect to avoid being punished. It's kind of like traffic laws. You could be a perfect driving your whole life, then get one speeding ticket, and because of that one speeding ticket, you have to pay a fine. You don't get off from the speeding ticket just because you obeyed the traffic laws most other days.

This kind of flows into my later arguments. Why would God feel like he has to punish me because of my wrongdoings? Many of my friends and family members have hurt my feelings and whatnot, but I still forgive them because I love them. Why wouldn't such a powerful and loving God love me like that?



God doesn't have self-esteem issues. Quite the opposite. He has the highest possible esteem of himself than anyone could have. But I don't see how his self-esteem is relevant.

I was being sarcastic to make the point of asking why God would feel like He had to send people to hell or allow them to be sent there.

Also, God doesn't punish people just for not believing in him. He punishes people for their sins.

Right. According to Christianity, we've all sinned and we need to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, etc etc.

But still.. How is ONE crucifixion and being dead for a mere three days enough to make up for an eternity in hell? It doesn't seem like much of a trade off. Granted, crucifixion and being publically flogged isn't fun, but it's better than suffering in hell for an eternity.


The time it takes to commit a crime has nothing to do with the time you ought to be punished. It might take a solid five minutes to rob a house, but it only takes a couple of seconds to commit a murder. Yet murder is worse than burglary.

When you murder, you go to jail for a finite amount of time (even a life sentence is X amount of years, depending on your state). It is simply unjust to punish people infinitely for a finite crime. Why not let sinners/nonbelievers go to hell for only X amount of time? Or simply allow them to experience for themselves all the wrongdoings done to others? Why go to such extremes?



As long as you sin on purpose, you're accountable for your actions regardless of how you came to have sinful desires.





If being "omnibenevolent" means God never punishes anybody for anything, then I would agree that God is no omnibenevolent if anybody has to suffer in hell. The Bible does not portray God as being omnibenevolent in that sense.

So, if God isn't omnibenevolent and sends people to hell for eternity, why would I want to worship him? God murders/allows people to be murdered time and time again in the Old Testament. Why worship a sadistic murderer?



Nothing is unnoticeable to God. But God is in a unique position as governor of the universe. It would be a contradiction for God to both forbid something and allow it at the same time. But if God demanded that you do X, and never held you to it, then that's essentially what he'd be doing. He'd be saying, "You must do X," while at the same time saying, "But you don't have to do X."

Apologies, this was a wording error on my part. Why would God care about my sins (since apparently he loves me)? He's an omnipotent figure that is so beyond physical, natural, and human understanding. Why would the supreme creator of existence feel the need to punish someone as small and insignificant (in comparison) like me for ETERNITY?
It's like the analogy of the ant biting my toes I used earlier, but it's on an infinitely larger scale. The popular concept of hell is illogical and unjust.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,039
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1/4/2013 12:06:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/4/2013 9:52:47 AM, stubs wrote:
At 1/4/2013 9:48:11 AM, Dogknox wrote:
Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

Eternal fire!!
.....................................................................
DICTIONARY DOT COM
Eternal:
1. without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing ( opposed to temporal ): eternal life.
2. perpetual; ceaseless; endless: eternal quarreling; eternal chatter.
.....................................................................

That's a clear translation fallacy. You can't take the definition of the of the translated English word and apply that definition to the Greek word.

stubs Thank you for your reply...
1) The scriptures were translated using the word "ETERNAL"!!
You are NOT a scripture scholar, you are not an expert in languages!! We both must accept the word "Eternal" because this is what the EXPERTS used!! You disagree?? You except the constitution of the country... If there is a disagreement then the high court decides.. NOT you not me! We must except the scriptures as they are!!!!

2) The word "ETERNAL" is also used in "Life ETERNAL" peppered throughout the scriptures.. would you then also reject "Life Eternal"????!!! NO!!
What is good for the goose is good for the gander!

stubs Having it your way;"Life ETERNAL" also found in the scriptures, would also have to change so "Eternal fire" can't change! Truly proving you are protestant, twist the scriptures, massage and massage the scriptures until they say what you want them to say!
Christians accept the scriptures word for word!!

Mark 9:48
where "the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched."

Isaiah 66:24
24 "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

stubs Jesus destroyed DEATH!
Death is no more....Those in hell can't die or Jesus' work on the cross is a lie!

Dogknox
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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1/4/2013 12:24:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Dogknox, if I'd be clearly be arguing against scripture you should have a relatively easy time refuting me in a formal debate, right?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Dogknox
Posts: 5,039
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1/4/2013 1:40:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/4/2013 12:24:32 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Dogknox, if I'd be clearly be arguing against scripture you should have a relatively easy time refuting me in a formal debate, right?
As already mentioned....
I post the scriptures... Your argument is with them!!
The scriptures cannot contradict scriptures!!
You will be forced to contradict the scriptures to say; "The damned, will not be eternally damned"!
You will have to say the "Eternally Alive" will at some place or time have to die! Eternal means ETERNAL; "Forever"!

popculturepooka Death is NO MORE, Jesus destroyed death by dying he restored life by rising!

All in hell will curse Jesus because they will blame Jesus for not being able to die to end their suffering! It will Jesus' fault that they can't die!
They will try all manner of ways to die, to end their suffering, nothing will work, all they will end up doing is increasing their pain and agony! FINALLY...
popculturepooka Finally they will decide to step into the "Lake of Fire" thinking: "Surely this will kill me"! They will willingly step into the lake, no one will push them in! They will NOT DIE!! They will become "One with Satan and his demons"! They will meld into one white hot ball of pure burning hate in the middle of the "Lake of Fire"!! FOREVER: never dying, eternal damnation!

Dogknox
philochristos
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1/4/2013 1:41:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/4/2013 11:33:08 AM, The_Toucan_Man wrote:
At 1/3/2013 7:30:21 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/3/2013 6:07:51 PM, The_Toucan_Man wrote:
As an atheist, if I were to die right now, would I go to hell?

Yes.

Read Matthew 7:1

So? Are you saying God doesn't have the right to judge?

It's not enough to "try your best." You have to actually succeed in being perfect to avoid being punished. It's kind of like traffic laws. You could be a perfect driving your whole life, then get one speeding ticket, and because of that one speeding ticket, you have to pay a fine. You don't get off from the speeding ticket just because you obeyed the traffic laws most other days.

This kind of flows into my later arguments. Why would God feel like he has to punish me because of my wrongdoings?

Because you deserve it.

Many of my friends and family members have hurt my feelings and whatnot, but I still forgive them because I love them. Why wouldn't such a powerful and loving God love me like that?

Because God is not just your buddy. He's the supreme ruler of the universe. Imagine applying your reasoning to the government. What would think of a government that never punished criminals just because they're a loving government?

But still.. How is ONE crucifixion and being dead for a mere three days enough to make up for an eternity in hell?

Jesus is God, so he has infinite worth and value, so his sacrifice was sufficient to pay for our sins.

The time it takes to commit a crime has nothing to do with the time you ought to be punished. It might take a solid five minutes to rob a house, but it only takes a couple of seconds to commit a murder. Yet murder is worse than burglary.

When you murder, you go to jail for a finite amount of time (even a life sentence is X amount of years, depending on your state). It is simply unjust to punish people infinitely for a finite crime.

But you're mistakenly correlating the time it takes to commit a crime with the time a punishment ought to last, there's just no comparison. Besides, strictly speaking, eternal punishment isn't infinite; it's just unending.

Why not let sinners/nonbelievers go to hell for only X amount of time?

I'd love it if God did that, but I don't get to make the rules.

Or simply allow them to experience for themselves all the wrongdoings done to others? Why go to such extremes?

I guess God takes sin pretty seriously.

If being "omnibenevolent" means God never punishes anybody for anything, then I would agree that God is no omnibenevolent if anybody has to suffer in hell. The Bible does not portray God as being omnibenevolent in that sense.

So, if God isn't omnibenevolent and sends people to hell for eternity, why would I want to worship him?

You wouldn't, obviously. :-)

God murders/allows people to be murdered time and time again in the Old Testament. Why worship a sadistic murderer?

God's not a murderer. He is justified in taking life. Murder is the unjustified taking of life.

Apologies, this was a wording error on my part. Why would God care about my sins (since apparently he loves me)?

Because he also loves righteousness.

He's an omnipotent figure that is so beyond physical, natural, and human understanding. Why would the supreme creator of existence feel the need to punish someone as small and insignificant (in comparison) like me for ETERNITY?

You're not insignificant to God, and your actions do matter to him. You seem to be more concerned with the length of the punishment than with the severity of the punishment. Honestly, would you rather be tortured for five hours or imprisoned for five days? I suspect you're rather be imprisoned for five days because even though the length of time is more, the suffering is less. According to the Bible, the punishment will fit the crimes in spite of the fact that everybody who goes to hell goes there for eternity. So the punishment is more severe in some cases than in others.

It's like the analogy of the ant biting my toes I used earlier, but it's on an infinitely larger scale. The popular concept of hell is illogical and unjust.

People are worth far more to God than ants are to humans. Besides that, ants aren't really moral agents. And your arguments are inconsistent. Earlier, you appealed to God's love as a reason for why he shouldn't punish us. Now, you appeal to our insignificance to God as a reason for why he shouldn't punish us.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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1/4/2013 4:01:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/4/2013 12:24:32 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Dogknox, if I'd be clearly be arguing against scripture you should have a relatively easy time refuting me in a formal debate, right?

PCP I don't know why you entertain Dogknox- isn't he a known troll?
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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1/4/2013 6:13:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/4/2013 4:01:21 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 1/4/2013 12:24:32 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Dogknox, if I'd be clearly be arguing against scripture you should have a relatively easy time refuting me in a formal debate, right?

PCP I don't know why you entertain Dogknox- isn't he a known troll?

That's true....
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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1/4/2013 6:24:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/4/2013 4:01:21 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 1/4/2013 12:24:32 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Dogknox, if I'd be clearly be arguing against scripture you should have a relatively easy time refuting me in a formal debate, right?

PCP I don't know why you entertain Dogknox- isn't he a known troll?

How dare you insult the great Dogknox so. Well did he prophesy of ones such as you when he said:

'TROLL!!!?.. It is you, posting without SCRIPTURES, LOGIC or the Early Church Father's... Trolls don't post scriptures, they post INSULT and Accusations! Just as you do!! I am accused by you as "Troll" because you can't reply with "Scriptures, LOGIC or the Early Church Father's!'
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Dogknox
Posts: 5,039
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1/4/2013 7:42:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/4/2013 4:01:21 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 1/4/2013 12:24:32 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Dogknox, if I'd be clearly be arguing against scripture you should have a relatively easy time refuting me in a formal debate, right?

PCP I don't know why you entertain Dogknox- isn't he a known troll?
Apeiron Thus you don't reply to my post....
And who decided I was "Troll"?!
Oh right I know.... You can't reply to the proofs found in the scriptures, so I am Troll.. Simple way out of not having to answer for your rejecting the scriptures!!
My name is NOT "Composer" I do not make faults accusation and insults, I post the scriptures they accuse you!

Scriptures tell you word for word.. "God IS LOVE"! Love says, you MUST allow "Free Will" thus "Evil" springs forth! ONLY man is made in God' image, dogs, horses, cats, sheep frogs etc..can't love, they do not have "Free Will"!
God allows "Evil" because he is PURE Perfect LOVE!
Allowing evil does not mean God condones evil!!
Allowing evil means he allows "Free Will"!

Apeiron Reading this I am very sure... You will also arrive at the conclusion; "Dogknox is troll"!

Stick your head in your sand!!

Dogknox