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Praying To the Saints?

Amica
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1/4/2013 12:41:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hi everyone/salaam--

This question is more for those Christians and Muslims who believe that people can become saints, and that it is ok to pray to the dead. Personally, I found no scriptural (Bible or Qur'an) evidence for sainthood. In fact, both Christian and Islamic holy texts indicate that the dead have no awareness:

Bible Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (KJV)"

Qur'an likens death to sleeping in verses 6:60, 40:46 and the timeframe of death for the dead people is like a one night's sleep in verses 2:259; 6:60; 10:45; 16:21; 18:11, 19, 25; 30:55.

How do you support your belief that you should pray to the saints? Why bypass praying to Allah (God) directly?

Thank you for your replies.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,059
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1/4/2013 1:21:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/4/2013 12:41:48 PM, Amica wrote:
Hi everyone/salaam--

This question is more for those Christians and Muslims who believe that people can become saints, and that it is ok to pray to the dead. Personally, I found no scriptural (Bible or Qur'an) evidence for sainthood. In fact, both Christian and Islamic holy texts indicate that the dead have no awareness:

Bible Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (KJV)"

Qur'an likens death to sleeping in verses 6:60, 40:46 and the timeframe of death for the dead people is like a one night's sleep in verses 2:259; 6:60; 10:45; 16:21; 18:11, 19, 25; 30:55.

How do you support your belief that you should pray to the saints? Why bypass praying to Allah (God) directly?

Thank you for your replies.

Amica What you forget is... All people "IN" Jesus are alive!
All people's "IN" Jesus are IN HEAVEN!

Also...
The Rich Man and Lazarus

Luke 16:19
"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man"s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham"s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, "Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire."

25 "But Abraham replied, "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us."

27 "He answered, "Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment."

29 "Abraham replied, "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them."

30 ""No, father Abraham," he said, "but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent."

31 "He said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.""


NOTE... The Rich man is Abraham's Child. Abraham calls the Rich Man "SON"! If he was in hell he would be the son of Satan!
The Rich Man has "COMPASSION"!! He wants to warn his brother's!

Amica A man in hell would be full of hate.. NO COMPASSION, if in the Lake of Fire!!

Galatians 3:7
Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.

Amica The Rich Man was a child of Abraham!!

Acts 7:32
"I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.

Amica The Rich Man was Abraham's son!!!
The Rich Man was not in the Lake of Fire... He was being SANCTIFIED!
When he is completely sanctified he will be able to cross the great chasm!!

26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us."

QUESTION WHO....
Amica Who would want to cross over to Hell??? NO ONE!!!
The "Rich Man" was not in hell the Lake of Fire!
The Rich Man was not sleeping!!

Dogknox
Dogknox
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1/4/2013 1:55:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Amica You said.. How do you support your belief that you should pray to the saints? Why bypass praying to Allah (God) directly?

I reply... You know the prophets are in heaven! You know they are alive!!
Why would not God listen to his Prophets first, over us here left on earth!!?
You know Mary is in heaven.. Why would not.. God listen to her first!!? She is right there, she is holy, she is alive!

We know those in heaven here our prayers..
Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God"s people.


The verse (above); The twenty-four elders have the PRAYERS of God' people here on earth!
The four living creatures also hear the prayers of God' people on earth!

Dogknox
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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1/4/2013 2:06:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/4/2013 12:41:48 PM, Amica wrote:
Hi everyone/salaam--

This question is more for those Christians and Muslims who believe that people can become saints, and that it is ok to pray to the dead. Personally, I found no scriptural (Bible or Qur'an) evidence for sainthood. In fact, both Christian and Islamic holy texts indicate that the dead have no awareness:

Bible Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (KJV)"

The Saints have eternal life; they're not dead.

'And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;' - Revelation 5:8

Qur'an likens death to sleeping in verses 6:60, 40:46 and the timeframe of death for the dead people is like a one night's sleep in verses 2:259; 6:60; 10:45; 16:21; 18:11, 19, 25; 30:55.

How do you support your belief that you should pray to the saints? Why bypass praying to Allah (God) directly?

'Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.' - James 5:16

The Saints are plenty righteous, thus their prayers have great power in their effects.

Thank you for your replies.

No problem.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Amica
Posts: 29
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1/4/2013 6:03:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
According to islamic teachings (Islam is my religion), it is the souls of people that go into special place called Barzakh (spelling?), awaiting the Judgement. However, even in Barzak (dwelling between this and next life for the souls) one may experience a form of judgment.

A human is not complete unless soul and body are united into one. Hence--my personal understanding is, the point of resurrection: to unite body and the soul. When people pray to a dead body, what good can come from it? For instance, people believe that bones of the dead saints are holy, objects to pray to. Some other people build shrines on the graves.

A person may be "alive" in Jesus or however one believes as long as he/she has faith. Meaning--again, my own understanding, a person may be physically alive on this earth but dead spiritually.

Perhaps I did not formulate my initial questions well enough. Why bypass God (Allah SWT) and pray to others besides Him? Why not establish a personal relationship with The Almighty SWT by praying to Him directly, asking of Him directly His help? He already knows what we do, want, need, think, say, etc. So, why not?
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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1/4/2013 6:21:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/4/2013 6:03:59 PM, Amica wrote:
According to islamic teachings (Islam is my religion), it is the souls of people that go into special place called Barzakh (spelling?), awaiting the Judgement. However, even in Barzak (dwelling between this and next life for the souls) one may experience a form of judgment.

A human is not complete unless soul and body are united into one. Hence--my personal understanding is, the point of resurrection: to unite body and the soul. When people pray to a dead body, what good can come from it? For instance, people believe that bones of the dead saints are holy, objects to pray to. Some other people build shrines on the graves.

Praying to a bone won't necessarily do you any good. In fact, it would probably do you bad. However, that doesn't mean relics are to be disregarded, just that they shouldn't be prayed to because that doesn't make any sense. It's like praying to a brick or a shoe; pointless.

As St. Jerome wrote of relics:

'We do not worship, we do not adore, for fear that we should bow down to the creature rather than to the creator, but we venerate the relics of the martyrs in order the better to adore Him whose martyrs they are'

A person may be "alive" in Jesus or however one believes as long as he/she has faith. Meaning--again, my own understanding, a person may be physically alive on this earth but dead spiritually.

Perhaps I did not formulate my initial questions well enough. Why bypass God (Allah SWT) and pray to others besides Him?

You can't really 'bypass' God. You're a Mahommedan, so I'm not sure how much this applies to you (if it applies at all), but I request the intercession of the Saints because I believe that St. James penned an inspired epistle saying that the prayer of a righteous man has great power, and the Saints are about as righteous as I suppose any human could be.

Why not establish a personal relationship with The Almighty SWT by praying to Him directly, asking of Him directly His help?

Indeed, why not? Asking the intercession of the Saints and praying to God are not mutually exclusive.

He already knows what we do, want, need, think, say, etc. So, why not?

No reason. Should be done.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Dogknox
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1/4/2013 8:01:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Amica You said..
Perhaps I did not formulate my initial questions well enough. Why bypass God (Allah SWT) and pray to others besides Him? Why not establish a personal relationship with The Almighty SWT by praying to Him directly, asking of Him directly His help? He already knows what we do, want, need, think, say, etc. So, why not?

I reply... The Saints are IN HEAVEN!
You ask your friends to pray for you.. Lets say "you have an illness"!
Amica Why bypass God (Allah SWT) and ask others besides Him, to pray for you?

Why NOT ask Mary.. we know she is in heaven.. we know God holds a special place for her... We KNOW Mary is closer to God then we are or our friends!!

Why not ask those on earth to pray for us?
Why not ask the saints in heaven to pray for us?
Why not ask God ourselves?
Everyone asking God can't be wrong!
We do not say we ourselves refuse to pray to God, we Pray to God for help and we ask those in heaven to also ask God to help us!

Look...
This man asks for help from Jesus for a dead girl!! (verse below)
Amica The Girl does not ask for help!!!
Another person asks for help for her (in this case it is her father) God hears the man ask for help.. !
PROOF God hears the requests from others!!

Matthew 9:18
While he was saying this, a synagogue leader came and knelt before him and said, "My daughter has just died. But come and put your hand on her, and she will live."

Jesus does raise her back to life!! The daughter is helped because another person stepped in asking for help, on her behalf!

Dogknox
Composer
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1/5/2013 5:12:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/4/2013 8:01:34 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Jesus does raise her back to life!! The daughter is helped because another person stepped in asking for help, on her behalf!

Only in Story book Land!

I saw the Magician Dynamo ' walking on water ' the other night via TV ' so Story book jebus is matched easily there!

I suppose you catholics etc. believe Dynamo is a Supernatural god now? LOL!

Your vindicated mentor, 50 year successful Cult busting personal successful literal Saviour, moi!
Clash
Posts: 220
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1/5/2013 6:19:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/5/2013 5:12:30 AM, Composer wrote:

Only in Story book Land!

I saw the Magician Dynamo ' walking on water ' the other night via TV ' so Story book jebus is matched easily there!

I suppose you catholics etc. believe Dynamo is a Supernatural god now? LOL!

Your vindicated mentor, 50 year successful Cult busting personal successful literal Saviour, moi!

Lol. I seriously laughed immediately after I read this. Made my day.
Amica
Posts: 29
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1/6/2013 12:26:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/4/2013 6:21:24 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
You can't really 'bypass' God. You're a Mahommedan, so I'm not sure how much this applies to you (if it applies at all), but I request the intercession of the Saints because I believe that St. James penned an inspired epistle saying that the prayer of a righteous man has great power, and the Saints are about as righteous as I suppose any human could be.

"Mahommedan"--really, (wo)man? What century do we live in that you would call someone a "Mahommedan." That group does not exist last time I checked. Proper title is Muslim. Unlike Christians who derive their title from Jesus' title of Christ, we do not do that as Muslims.
Amica
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1/6/2013 12:37:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/4/2013 8:01:34 PM, Dogknox wrote:
I reply... The Saints are IN HEAVEN!
You ask your friends to pray for you.. Lets say "you have an illness"!
Amica Why bypass God (Allah SWT) and ask others besides Him, to pray for you?

Asking someone to pray WITH you is different than praying to that person, expecting that they can do something.

Why NOT ask Mary.. we know she is in heaven.. we know God holds a special place for her... We KNOW Mary is closer to God then we are or our friends!!

Mary, according to the Bible, was not known to perform miracles. That is not something God intended her to do. Jesus was able to perform miracles only so long as God allowed it. Otherwise, if Jesus himself had any power he would have caused everyone to follow him, even the Pilate. He would not allow attempts on his life, would he?

Why not ask those on earth to pray for us?
Why not ask the saints in heaven to pray for us?
Why not ask God ourselves?
Everyone asking God can't be wrong!
We do not say we ourselves refuse to pray to God, we Pray to God for help and we ask those in heaven to also ask God to help us!

Like I said, there is a difference in asking people to pray with you, vs. praying to them to perform a miracle. I often see people expecting saints to that for them. For example, a person I know prayed for a saint to heal her cat. She herself said: "I did not exactly pray to God, but to the saint of animals."

Look...
This man asks for help from Jesus for a dead girl!! (verse below)
Amica The Girl does not ask for help!!!
Another person asks for help for her (in this case it is her father) God hears the man ask for help.. !
PROOF God hears the requests from others!!

Matthew 9:18
While he was saying this, a synagogue leader came and knelt before him and said, "My daughter has just died. But come and put your hand on her, and she will live."

Jesus was supported by God and allowed to perform the miracles by God only. You will not that Jesus had no power to prevent crucifixion, according to the Biblical account. I think it would be more a miracle of biblical Jesus if he prevented miraculously the crucifixion and made everyone believers in accordance to what Christians believe, than allow the whole ordeal. Of course, he had no power to do anything. The power was with God only. Even Jesus called on God to save him, questioning--according to the Bible, why he is undergoing such torture.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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1/6/2013 2:24:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 12:26:56 PM, Amica wrote:
At 1/4/2013 6:21:24 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
You can't really 'bypass' God. You're a Mahommedan, so I'm not sure how much this applies to you (if it applies at all), but I request the intercession of the Saints because I believe that St. James penned an inspired epistle saying that the prayer of a righteous man has great power, and the Saints are about as righteous as I suppose any human could be.

"Mahommedan"--really, (wo)man?

Yes, really.

What century do we live in that you would call someone a "Mahommedan."

I like antiquated transliterations. Come at me.

That group does not exist last time I checked. Proper title is Muslim. Unlike Christians who derive their title from Jesus' title of Christ, we do not do that as Muslims.

I suppose this was the only thing in my post that was even remotely worth addressing. I wonder why I even bother.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Dogknox
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1/6/2013 5:19:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Amica Get is straight... Praying to a saint ... Asking the saint to ask God (for You) is NOT worshiping the saint!
Worship is for God alone!

Asking your neighbor is PETITIONING your neighbor to pray to god for you, it is the same as asking a saint to pray for you!!
Praying to a saint is NOT worshiping the saint, it is a form of PETITION!
..........................................................
DICTIONARY DOT COM
PETITION
1. a formally drawn request, often bearing the names of a number of those making the request, that is addressed to a person or group of persons in authority...
...........................................................

Having Mary PETITION God for me is better by far then having my neighbor PETITION God for me!
Having my neighbor PETITION God for me is far better then JUST ME PETITIONING God by my self!
Having Mary and my neighbor PETITIONING God for me is far far better then just me my self requesting God!

The more request for help to God, all the better..!!!
The more saints requesting God for help on my behalf is far, far better then not!!!!

Praying to the saint.. Is a prayer of petition NOT WORSHIP!!!!
Never has there been worship of saints!

Saints are all those people we know are in Heaven with God!
Saints are ALIVE, in heaven far, far, far more close to God then you or my neighbor!!!

Mary
Peter
Paul
etc
Saints are NOT dead!!!
Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

Dogknox
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1/6/2013 6:30:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 5:19:43 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Amica Get is straight... Praying to a saint ... Asking the saint to ask God (for You) is NOT worshiping the saint!
Worship is for God alone!

Asking your neighbor is PETITIONING your neighbor to pray to god for you, it is the same as asking a saint to pray for you!!
Praying to a saint is NOT worshiping the saint, it is a form of PETITION!
..........................................................
DICTIONARY DOT COM
PETITION
1. a formally drawn request, often bearing the names of a number of those making the request, that is addressed to a person or group of persons in authority...
...........................................................

Having Mary PETITION God for me is better by far then having my neighbor PETITION God for me!
Having my neighbor PETITION God for me is far better then JUST ME PETITIONING God by my self!
Having Mary and my neighbor PETITIONING God for me is far far better then just me my self requesting God!

The more request for help to God, all the better..!!!
The more saints requesting God for help on my behalf is far, far better then not!!!!

Praying to the saint.. Is a prayer of petition NOT WORSHIP!!!!
Never has there been worship of saints!

Saints are all those people we know are in Heaven with God!
Saints are ALIVE, in heaven far, far, far more close to God then you or my neighbor!!!

Mary
Peter
Paul
etc
Saints are NOT dead!!!
Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

Dogknox

1. For my records & later comment, let's examine your Cults evidence from the Story book bible; that shows ANY believers will end up in Story book heaven, where Story book jebus is said to have gone?

2. Also your own preferred Story book bible states that there is but ONE mediator between Story book god & men (1 Tim. 2:5) and it ISN'T Story book Mary, nor Story book apostles nor Story book Paul!

3. Your ' saints ' are 100% fabricated mythical beings existing only in your preferred Story books & other catholic Cult propaganda & in the imaginations of dupes like you that choose to tow your rotten fruit producing catholic Johnny Come Lately paedophile & Or Nun raping disgusting Cult!

You catholics are also Pagan founded Idol worshippers!

Your vindicated mentor, 50 year successful Cult busting personal successful literal Saviour, moi!
Suqua
Posts: 433
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1/13/2013 3:27:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 5:19:43 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Amica Get is straight... Praying to a saint ... Asking the saint to ask God (for You) is NOT worshiping the saint!
Worship is for God alone!

Asking your neighbor is PETITIONING your neighbor to pray to god for yiou, it is the same as asking a saint to pray for you!!
Praying to a saint is NOT worshiping the saint, it is a form of PETITION!
..........................................................
DICTIONARY DOT COM
PETITION
1. a formally drawn request, often bearing the names of a number of those making the request, that is addressed to a person or group of persons in authority...
...........................................................

Having Mary PETITION God for me is better by far then having my neighbor PETITION God for me!
Having my neighbor PETITION God for me is far better then JUST ME PETITIONING God by my self!
Having Mary and my neighbor PETITIONING God for me is far far better then just me my self requesting God!

The more request for help to God, all the better..!!!
The more saints requesting God for help on my behalf is far, far better then not!!!!

Praying to the saint.. Is a prayer of petition NOT WORSHIP!!!!
Never has there been worship of saints!

Saints are all those people we know are in Heaven with God!
Saints are ALIVE, in heaven far, far, far more close to God then you or my neighbor!!!

Mary
Peter
Paul
etc
Saints are NOT dead!!!
Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

Dogknox

Why not ask JESUS. He said to ask Him, not to ask Mary to ask Him, if so show me the text. Show me Dogknox, show me the text that says ask Mary and she will talk to me because she's right here and I can her it from her not from you. Why? Are you scared that Jesus, or the Father is not that good, that HE needs Mary or someone other than you whom HE died for to talk to HIM.
HE wants to hear right from you,Dogknox, you who are dead in trespasses and sin's. And knowing all that HE knows about you, and still went to the cross to have a relationship with you like with the desciples and you want to believe that you need to go through someone else, how impersonal. How would you like it if your children had to feel as though they had to get your friend to talk to you for them. God loves you with the compassion of a loving father and even much more so, for HE took your place on the cross, even if you were the only one Dogknox! So please! talk to HIM directly, HE's waiting to hear straight from your mouth to HIS listening heart. Why not do it today?
Composer
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1/13/2013 4:46:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/4/2013 8:01:34 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Jesus does raise her back to life!! The daughter is helped because another person stepped in asking for help, on her behalf!

Even your own catholic Story book refutes you catholics -

The Story book non-trinitarian catholic jebus had to pray to its own god to get authority to do & say anything & everything -

" I can do nothing on my own authority; . . . . " (John 5:30) RSV catholic Story book 1966 edition

Your vindicated mentor, 50 year successful Cult busting personal successful literal Saviour, moi!
Composer
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1/13/2013 4:58:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
catholics have corrupted the Original & Earliest beliefs and dumped them for a Pagan - metaphysical variety they call the ' trinity '.

IF we follow the line of reasoning behind this catholic abomination; catholics maintain therefore that their Supernatural pre-existent god = jebus, must have had to have spiritual intercourse with its own Mother Mary who was also betrothed to another man (Story book Joseph) in order to produce a human shell this pre-existent Supernatural god - jebus could dress up in to look like a man? (cf. Luke 1:35)

So in short, the catholic jebus had sex with its own earthly Mother and made her pregnant with a body it could live in on earth!

Yes I know, it's sick, but that's trinitarian catholicism all over! SICK!
Dogknox
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1/13/2013 5:17:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Suqua you asked..
Why not ask JESUS. He said to ask Him, not to ask Mary to ask Him, if so show me the text. Show me Dogknox, show me the text that says ask Mary and she will talk to me because she's right here and I can her it from her not from you. Why? Are you scared that Jesus, or the Father is not that good, that HE needs Mary or someone other than you whom HE died for to talk to HIM.
HE wants to hear right from you,Dogknox, you who are dead in trespasses and sin's. And knowing all that HE knows about you, and still went to the cross to have a relationship with you like with the desciples and you want to believe that you need to go through someone else, how impersonal. How would you like it if your children had to feel as though they had to get your friend to talk to you for them. God loves you with the compassion of a loving father and even much more so, for HE took your place on the cross, even if you were the only one Dogknox! So please! talk to HIM directly, HE's waiting to hear straight from your mouth to HIS listening heart. Why not do it today?


I reply.. to your question.. Why not ask JESUS.?
Christians DO ASK Jesus!!!!
Christians also ASK their neighbors to Pray for them to Jesus!
Christians also ASK.. Saints to pray for them to Jesus!

Suqua QUESTION WHY..
Why did Simon ask them to pray for him??? Why did he not go directly to Jesus!?? (below)
Acts 8:24
Then Simon answered, "Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me."

You said.. He said to ask Him, not to ask Mary to ask Him
I reply.. He did not say NOT TO ask the saints!

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God"s people.

LOOK (above) twenty-four elders have the Prayers of God' people!! How did they get their hands on them if the prayers go directly to God???????

Revelation 8:3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God"s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God"s people, went up before God from the angel"s hand.

LOOK (above) an ANGEL has the Prayers of God' people why do they not go DIRECTLY to God!

Suqua Paul asks those around him to Pray to God for him.. Why did Paul not go directly to God????!

Ephesians 6:18
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord"s people.

(above) The Saints in heaven always keep on praying for all the Lord"s people.

All peoples IN HEAVEN ARE RIGHTEOUS!!!
James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

Suqua (above) The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

Mary is ALIVE in heaven, she is RIGHTEOUS she prays for her Children to Jesus! The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

Dogknox
Suqua
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1/13/2013 8:15:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/13/2013 5:17:48 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Suqua you asked..
Why not ask JESUS. He said to ask Him, not to ask Mary to ask Him, if so show me the text. Show me Dogknox, show me the text that says ask Mary and she will talk to me because she's right here and I can her it from her not from you. Why? Are you scared that Jesus, or the Father is not that good, that HE needs Mary or someone other than you whom HE died for to talk to HIM.
HE wants to hear right from you,Dogknox, you who are dead in trespasses and sin's. And knowing all that HE knows about you, and still went to the cross to have a relationship with you like with the desciples and you want to believe that you need to go through someone else, how impersonal. How would you like it if your children had to feel as though they had to get your friend to talk to you for them. God loves you with the compassion of a loving father and even much more so, for HE took your place on the cross, even if you were the only one Dogknox! So please! talk to HIM directly, HE's waiting to hear straight from your mouth to HIS listening heart. Why not do it today?


I reply.. to your question.. Why not ask JESUS.?
Christians DO ASK Jesus!!!!
Christians also ASK their neighbors to Pray for them to Jesus!
Christians also ASK.. Saints to pray for them to Jesus!

Suqua QUESTION WHY..
Why did Simon ask them to pray for him??? Why did he not go directly to Jesus!?? (below)
Acts 8:24
Then Simon answered, "Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me."

You said.. He said to ask Him, not to ask Mary to ask Him
I reply.. He did not say NOT TO ask the saints!

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God"s people.

LOOK (above) twenty-four elders have the Prayers of God' people!! How did they get their hands on them if the prayers go directly to God???????

Revelation 8:3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God"s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God"s people, went up before God from the angel"s hand.

LOOK (above) an ANGEL has the Prayers of God' people why do they not go DIRECTLY to God!

Suqua Paul asks those around him to Pray to God for him.. Why did Paul not go directly to God????!

Ephesians 6:18
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord"s people.

(above) The Saints in heaven always keep on praying for all the Lord"s people.

All peoples IN HEAVEN ARE RIGHTEOUS!!!
James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

Suqua (above) The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

Mary is ALIVE in heaven, she is RIGHTEOUS she prays for her Children to Jesus! The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

Dogknox

MARY is NOT ALIVE in heaven. Who told you that? Not the bible, so it must be some man. Now I did not say she wasn't going to be in heaven, I say the Bible does not say Mary is in heaven right now. I am sure she's going to be their by the grace of God, like the rest of humanity that are allow in that place. Your saints aren't there unless scripture has revealed that thay are, and if so show me the text, that certain saint are in heaven. It only mentions by name Moses and Elias, Matt 17:3-4, Enoch in Gen 5:24.
And Rev 8:3 which people use as the catholic saints, but if you use your brain you will find both old and new testement meaning is the same, someone who is a child of the King, King Jesus, Phillppians 4:21-22 Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you. All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household. Then we can go to Rev to talk about the prayers of the saints, meaning those who are God's children. Or we'll have to go to the old testement and talk about all the saints before there ever was a catholic church. Or should we?
Dogknox
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1/14/2013 3:18:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Suqua You said..
MARY is NOT ALIVE in heaven. Who told you that? Not the bible, so it must be some man. Now I did not say she wasn't going to be in heaven, I say the Bible does not say Mary is in heaven right now. I am sure she's going to be their by the grace of God, like the rest of humanity that are allow in that place. Your saints aren't there unless scripture has revealed that thay are, and if so show me the text, that certain saint are in heaven. It only mentions by name Moses and Elias, Matt 17:3-4, Enoch in Gen 5:24.
And Rev 8:3 which people use as the catholic saints, but if you use your brain you will find both old and new testement meaning is the same, someone who is a child of the King, King Jesus, Phillppians 4:21-22 Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you. All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household. Then we can go to Rev to talk about the prayers of the saints, meaning those who are God's children. Or we'll have to go to the old testement and talk about all the saints before there ever was a catholic church. Or should we?


You are WRONG.. WRONG..
Mary is in heaven ALIVE!!
1) Luke 1:26
In the sixth month of Elizabeth"s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee,
27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin"s name was Mary.
28 The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."


Verse #28 (above) Does the verse say.. "The Lord WILL BE with you!?" Does the verse say.. "The Lord WAS with you"?!

Word for word... "The LORD IS WITH MARY"! Where oh where is the lord now?????!! The Lord is in heaven... Mary is with the LORD!!!

2) Look are this translation..
Luke 1:28
Wycliffe Bible
And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.

Do you see it?? "FULL Of Grace"! Full means there is no room left for anything but GRACE!!
Mary being "Full of Grace" must be saved... God is always with Mary! Being "FULL of Grace" means she is without sin.. She is NOT dead! Sin brings death!

3) Revelations 11:19
Then God"s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.

Do you see it?? The Ark is in Heaven!
Mary carried God for 40 weeks!
The Ark carried God for 40 years!

Mary carried the Real Bread come down from heaven!
The Ark carried the "Show Bread"!

Mary carried the "Word of God" - Jesus
The Ark carried the words of God the Ten Commandments.

Mary was Pure, Holy & Blessed; A virgin!
The Ark was blessed & sacred no man could even touch the Ark!

The Ark appears in heaven (verse above)
The very next verse Mary appears in heaven..
Clearly: Mary is a greater ARK then the first!!!!!
1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.


Jesus MUST honor Mary his mother.. He MUST!!!
If Jesus did not keep the ten commandments he would be sinning he would not be perfect! Jesus honors Mary in a way ONLY a God could honor his mother.. "Crown of twelve stars"!!

Mary is IN Heaven because she is full of Grace and the LORD is with her>> ALWAYS!

The Apostles are IN heaven!!
Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The CHURCH is alive in heaven because Jesus is IN Heaven!
The Body of Jesus is on earth and IN HEAVEN Alive!!!

Dogknox
Suqua
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1/16/2013 12:32:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/14/2013 3:18:25 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Suqua You said..
MARY is NOT ALIVE in heaven. Who told you that? Not the bible, so it must be some man. Now I did not say she wasn't going to be in heaven, I say the Bible does not say Mary is in heaven right now. I am sure she's going to be their by the grace of God, like the rest of humanity that are allow in that place. Your saints aren't there unless scripture has revealed that thay are, and if so show me the text, that certain saint are in heaven. It only mentions by name Moses and Elias, Matt 17:3-4, Enoch in Gen 5:24.
And Rev 8:3 which people use as the catholic saints, but if you use your brain you will find both old and new testement meaning is the same, someone who is a child of the King, King Jesus, Phillppians 4:21-22 Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you. All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household. Then we can go to Rev to talk about the prayers of the saints, meaning those who are God's children. Or we'll have to go to the old testement and talk about all the saints before there ever was a catholic church. Or should we?


You are WRONG.. WRONG..
Mary is in heaven ALIVE!!
1) Luke 1:26
In the sixth month of Elizabeth"s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee,
27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin"s name was Mary.
28 The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."


Verse #28 (above) Does the verse say.. "The Lord WILL BE with you!?" Does the verse say.. "The Lord WAS with

Carry on your doing good?

Word for word... "The LORD IS WITH MARY"! Where oh where is the lord now?????!! The Lord is in heaven... Mary is with the LORD!!!

No, it says The Lord is with mary, not, mary is with the Lord.

2) Look are this translation..
Luke 1:28
Wycliffe Bible
And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.

Isn't this a Protestant Bible? Good on you.

Do you see it?? "FULL Of Grace"! Full means there is no room left for anything but GRACE!!
Mary being "Full of Grace" must be saved... God is always with Mary! Being "FULL of Grace" means she is without sin.. She is NOT dead! Sin brings death!

Your opinion, stretch that idea way out there Dogknox, good try.

3) Revelations 11:19
Then God"s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.

Do you see it?? The Ark is in Heaven!
Mary carried God for 40 weeks!
The Ark carried God for 40 years!

Mary carried the Real Bread come down from heaven!
The Ark carried the "Show Bread"!

Mary carried the "Word of God" - Jesus
The Ark carried the words of God the Ten Commandments.

Mary was Pure, Holy & Blessed; A virgin!
The Ark was blessed & sacred no man could even touch the Ark!

The Ark appears in heaven (verse above)
The very next verse Mary appears in heaven..
Clearly: Mary is a greater ARK then the first!!!!!
1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.


Rev 12 carry that further the manchild is caught up unto God, and to his throne
12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

So how does that fit into Mary's, being in heaven with Jesus? Fled into the wilderness?

Jesus MUST honor Mary his mother.. He MUST!!!
If Jesus did not keep the ten commandments he would be sinning he would not be perfect! Jesus honors Mary in a way ONLY a God could honor his mother.. "Crown of twelve stars"!!

He does honor his mother, thats one of the 2 commands. The bible never says that she is in heaven right now dogknox. You made that up! Nice touch, but not Biblically correct

Mary is IN Heaven because she is full of Grace and the LORD is with her>> ALWAYS!

She's resting right now,in the grave. Though, there is no text to prove dead or alive the scriptures are silent and so must we. What we do have is 1Cor15:20-23
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of he dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The Apostles are IN heaven!!
Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

They will one day, I agree, but to say they are there now, no,no,no!!!!!!

Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

That's wonderful, thank you for pulling out this text. As you can see its after the mark of beast time, which has not happened yet.They wait for their reward, eternal life, to those who are in Christ Jesus. AMEN

Just a side note,since we're in this book of Rev20:14 And DEATH and HELL were cast into the lake of fire, paise God, This is the second death. Wow thats great news hey!
Composer
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1/16/2013 3:03:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/16/2013 12:32:04 AM, Suqua wrote:
Just a side note,since we're in this book of Rev20:14 And DEATH and HELL were cast into the lake of fire, paise God, . . . .

If DEATH is a physical CONDITION & HELL is a physical LOCATION, then explain HOW they can be literally ' cast ' anywhere?
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1/16/2013 3:19:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/4/2013 2:06:18 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
The Saints are plenty righteous, thus their prayers have great power in their effects.

Incorrect again Pagan Idol worshipper!

Read your preferred Story book again -

as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (Rom. 3:10) RSV catholic Story book 1966 edition

Your vindicated mentor, 50 year successful Cult busting personal successful literal Saviour, moi!
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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1/16/2013 3:27:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/16/2013 3:19:13 AM, Composer wrote:
At 1/4/2013 2:06:18 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
The Saints are plenty righteous, thus their prayers have great power in their effects.

Incorrect again Pagan Idol worshipper!

Read your preferred Story book again -

as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (Rom. 3:10) RSV catholic Story book 1966 edition

I know you're not really interested in an actual exegesis, so I won't waste my time and I'll just say you're wrong.

Your vindicated mentor, 50 year successful Cult busting personal successful literal Saviour, moi!

Your literal personal successfully vindicated literal personal successful literal mentor & successful personal 17 year literal successful Cult perpetuating personal successful literal Catholic, moi!
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Composer
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1/16/2013 4:27:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/16/2013 3:27:18 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 1/16/2013 3:19:13 AM, Composer wrote:
At 1/4/2013 2:06:18 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
The Saints are plenty righteous, thus their prayers have great power in their effects.

Incorrect again Pagan Idol worshipper!

Read your preferred Story book again -

as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (Rom. 3:10) RSV catholic Story book 1966 edition

At 1/16/2013 3:27:18 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
I know you're not really interested in an actual exegesis, so I won't waste my time and I'll just say you're wrong.

Your vindicated mentor, 50 year successful Cult busting personal successful literal Saviour, moi!

Your literal personal successfully vindicated literal personal successful literal mentor & successful personal 17 year literal successful Cult perpetuating personal successful literal Catholic, moi!

You can exegise 'til the cows come home but never legitimately and you are even prepared to have a go at refuting your own propaganda to try to make it say what you wished it said but doesn't? LOL!

as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (Rom. 3:10) RSV catholic Story book 1966 edition

You Pagan Idol catholic brainwashed worshipper you!
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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1/16/2013 4:56:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/16/2013 4:27:43 AM, Composer wrote:
At 1/16/2013 3:27:18 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 1/16/2013 3:19:13 AM, Composer wrote:
At 1/4/2013 2:06:18 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
The Saints are plenty righteous, thus their prayers have great power in their effects.

Incorrect again Pagan Idol worshipper!

Read your preferred Story book again -

as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (Rom. 3:10) RSV catholic Story book 1966 edition

At 1/16/2013 3:27:18 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
I know you're not really interested in an actual exegesis, so I won't waste my time and I'll just say you're wrong.

Your vindicated mentor, 50 year successful Cult busting personal successful literal Saviour, moi!

Your literal personal successfully vindicated literal personal successful literal mentor & successful personal 17 year literal successful Cult perpetuating personal successful literal Catholic, moi!

You can exegise 'til the cows come home but never legitimately and you are even prepared to have a go at refuting your own propaganda to try to make it say what you wished it said but doesn't? LOL!

It wouldn't be refuting it, it would be refuting your twisted interpretation of it, context notwithstanding.

Want to debate it? If not, I can't be bothered.

as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (Rom. 3:10) RSV catholic Story book 1966 edition

You Pagan Idol catholic brainwashed worshipper you!

(:
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
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1/16/2013 4:38:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/16/2013 4:56:59 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
Want to debate it? If not, I can't be bothered.

as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (Rom. 3:10) RSV catholic Story book 1966 edition

You Pagan Idol catholic brainwashed worshipper you!

At 1/16/2013 4:56:59 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
(:

There is nothing to Debate!

You lost!

as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (Rom. 3:10) RSV catholic Story book 1966 edition

You are of course free to present your verbal contortions refuting your own Story book text, purely for our records and further amusement!

Your vindicated mentor, 50 year successful Cult busting personal successful literal Saviour, moi!
Dogknox
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1/16/2013 11:39:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Suqua You asked.. So how does that fit into Mary's, being in heaven with Jesus? Fled into the wilderness?
&
He does honor his mother, thats one of the 2 commands. The bible never says that she is in heaven right now dogknox. You made that up! Nice touch, but not Biblically correct

I reply Simply: there is ZERO about "Fled into the wilderness!!!" Do you read, "Fled into the wilderness?"!!!! (Below)
The bible does say Mary is in heaven.. Open your eyes.. read (below)

Revelation 12:1
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

Looks as if you are sucking slew water... Making stuff up!
Scriptures... A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman...

Clearly Mary is in heaven!!!!

Dogknox