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The Death of Socrates and the Crucifixion

Franz_Reynard
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1/6/2013 3:23:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Quite a few philosophers here. Christians as well.

Do these two stories seem strikingly similar to anyone else? They directly coincide, with some character replacements, and more dramatism granted to the crucifixion (torture, crown of thorns, etc.).

However, the spirit remains the same. From the Apology:

"For if you kill me you will not easily find another like me, who, if I may use such a ludicrous figure of speech, am sort of a gadfly, given to the state by God; and the state is like a great and noble steed who is tardy in his motions owing to his very size, and requires to be stirred to life."

Hmmm. Curious.
malcolmxy
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1/6/2013 4:25:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Christian tradition is a lot of things. Original is not one of them.

It's like 3M. They didn't make the crucifixion. They made it bloodier.
War is over, if you want it.

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Franz_Reynard
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1/7/2013 11:05:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
So, no one agrees that these seem similar? There are no implications to this?

Is anyone familiar with both stories?
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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1/7/2013 11:13:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 3:23:04 PM, Franz_Reynard wrote:
Quite a few philosophers here. Christians as well.

Do these two stories seem strikingly similar to anyone else? They directly coincide, with some character replacements, and more dramatism granted to the crucifixion (torture, crown of thorns, etc.).

However, the spirit remains the same. From the Apology:

"For if you kill me you will not easily find another like me, who, if I may use such a ludicrous figure of speech, am sort of a gadfly, given to the state by God; and the state is like a great and noble steed who is tardy in his motions owing to his very size, and requires to be stirred to life."

Hmmm. Curious.

They're similar but not connected (assuming that's what you are implying).
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
Franz_Reynard
Posts: 1,227
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1/7/2013 11:19:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2013 11:13:58 AM, vbaculum wrote:
At 1/6/2013 3:23:04 PM, Franz_Reynard wrote:
Quite a few philosophers here. Christians as well.

Do these two stories seem strikingly similar to anyone else? They directly coincide, with some character replacements, and more dramatism granted to the crucifixion (torture, crown of thorns, etc.).

However, the spirit remains the same. From the Apology:

"For if you kill me you will not easily find another like me, who, if I may use such a ludicrous figure of speech, am sort of a gadfly, given to the state by God; and the state is like a great and noble steed who is tardy in his motions owing to his very size, and requires to be stirred to life."

Hmmm. Curious.

They're similar but not connected (assuming that's what you are implying).

Why not?
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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1/7/2013 12:55:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/6/2013 4:25:23 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
Christian tradition is a lot of things. Original is not one of them.

It's like 3M. They didn't make the crucifixion. They made it bloodier.


Can you present a few ture Christian "traditions" which are not orginal?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
vbaculum
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1/7/2013 2:33:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2013 11:19:26 AM, Franz_Reynard wrote:
At 1/7/2013 11:13:58 AM, vbaculum wrote:
At 1/6/2013 3:23:04 PM, Franz_Reynard wrote:
Quite a few philosophers here. Christians as well.

Do these two stories seem strikingly similar to anyone else? They directly coincide, with some character replacements, and more dramatism granted to the crucifixion (torture, crown of thorns, etc.).

However, the spirit remains the same. From the Apology:

"For if you kill me you will not easily find another like me, who, if I may use such a ludicrous figure of speech, am sort of a gadfly, given to the state by God; and the state is like a great and noble steed who is tardy in his motions owing to his very size, and requires to be stirred to life."

Hmmm. Curious.

They're similar but not connected (assuming that's what you are implying).

Why not?

I meant that, to my knowledge, no historian, psychologist, etc. has ever asserted that they are connected. I don't know; maybe you know something I don't.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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1/7/2013 2:57:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2013 12:55:04 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 1/6/2013 4:25:23 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
Christian tradition is a lot of things. Original is not one of them.

It's like 3M. They didn't make the crucifixion. They made it bloodier.


Can you present a few ture Christian "traditions" which are not orginal?

Well the majority of Christianity, specifically the old testament, is lifted from Judaism. This is just being pedantic though.

Epic of Gilgamesh, is one.

Gods such as Osiris and Dyonisis introduced resurrection; not strictly traditions, but beleifs. A big one the concept of Hell, was a big thing in Greek Mythology; and Tartarus is very close to what is generally thought of as Christian Hell to the point that one could have been "lifted" from the other.

That's just off the top of my head.
malcolmxy
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1/7/2013 3:20:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2013 12:55:04 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 1/6/2013 4:25:23 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
Christian tradition is a lot of things. Original is not one of them.

It's like 3M. They didn't make the crucifixion. They made it bloodier.


Can you present a few ture Christian "traditions" which are not orginal?

Genesis 1 - the creation story (stolen from The Book of the Dead)

The Golden Rule - Matthew 4 (it's the 1st instance of the wording being positive - do unto as opposed to thou shall not, but you can find this rule in almost all religions that pre-date Christianity)

In the original Greek of the New Testament, hell is a translation of Hades.

Easter is the spring equinox

Christmas is the winter solstice

The flood myth (Noah's Ark) is so old and well used in religious lore, I don't even know which religion is the actual origin...I guess the generic "Paganism" is the most accurate I can get with that.

Frankly, I don't have time to list out all the places that Christian/Jewish tradition stole from other religions.

It'd probably easier to pick out the places where they didn't.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
Ramshutu
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1/7/2013 3:29:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2013 3:20:24 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 1/7/2013 12:55:04 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 1/6/2013 4:25:23 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
Christian tradition is a lot of things. Original is not one of them.

It's like 3M. They didn't make the crucifixion. They made it bloodier.


Can you present a few ture Christian "traditions" which are not orginal?

Genesis 1 - the creation story (stolen from The Book of the Dead)

The Golden Rule - Matthew 4 (it's the 1st instance of the wording being positive - do unto as opposed to thou shall not, but you can find this rule in almost all religions that pre-date Christianity)

In the original Greek of the New Testament, hell is a translation of Hades.

Easter is the spring equinox

Christmas is the winter solstice

The flood myth (Noah's Ark) is so old and well used in religious lore, I don't even know which religion is the actual origin...I guess the generic "Paganism" is the most accurate I can get with that.

Frankly, I don't have time to list out all the places that Christian/Jewish tradition stole from other religions.

It'd probably easier to pick out the places where they didn't.

Grar!! I should have remembered Christmas (self-facepalm)!
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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1/7/2013 3:32:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It's been like a whole 2 weeks now. It's understandable.

;-)
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
Ramshutu
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1/7/2013 3:53:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2013 3:32:40 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
It's been like a whole 2 weeks now. It's understandable.

;-)

Well, I got hades first, and I will also call shotgun on the Virgin Birth:

Isis and Neith in Egyption mythology are very close to the descriptions of Mary and Virgin Birth. Also Marduk in Babyonian mythology is the same sort of thing as the Birth of Jesus.
Franz_Reynard
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1/7/2013 7:53:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2013 2:33:10 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 1/7/2013 11:19:26 AM, Franz_Reynard wrote:
At 1/7/2013 11:13:58 AM, vbaculum wrote:
At 1/6/2013 3:23:04 PM, Franz_Reynard wrote:
Quite a few philosophers here. Christians as well.

Do these two stories seem strikingly similar to anyone else? They directly coincide, with some character replacements, and more dramatism granted to the crucifixion (torture, crown of thorns, etc.).

However, the spirit remains the same. From the Apology:

"For if you kill me you will not easily find another like me, who, if I may use such a ludicrous figure of speech, am sort of a gadfly, given to the state by God; and the state is like a great and noble steed who is tardy in his motions owing to his very size, and requires to be stirred to life."

Hmmm. Curious.

They're similar but not connected (assuming that's what you are implying).

Why not?

I meant that, to my knowledge, no historian, psychologist, etc. has ever asserted that they are connected. I don't know; maybe you know something I don't.

I believe that it's at least open to inquiry.

Consider that the very first story (Euthyphro) is extremely religious in nature; that Socrates questions the nature of piety as it relates to Greek gods, but makes a distinction with a single capitalized God that seems to have more credibility; and that it's explained that Socrates is being impeached for "corrupting the youth by undermining established religion."

Moreover, in that conversation, it's implied that one must always question their own perspectives; that conclusions following personal inquiry cannot be dogmatic in nature; and that good will for one's fellow man is above all else.

That sounds precisely like Jesus.
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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1/7/2013 9:00:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2013 7:53:22 PM, Franz_Reynard wrote:
At 1/7/2013 2:33:10 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 1/7/2013 11:19:26 AM, Franz_Reynard wrote:
At 1/7/2013 11:13:58 AM, vbaculum wrote:
At 1/6/2013 3:23:04 PM, Franz_Reynard wrote:
Quite a few philosophers here. Christians as well.

Do these two stories seem strikingly similar to anyone else? They directly coincide, with some character replacements, and more dramatism granted to the crucifixion (torture, crown of thorns, etc.).

However, the spirit remains the same. From the Apology:

"For if you kill me you will not easily find another like me, who, if I may use such a ludicrous figure of speech, am sort of a gadfly, given to the state by God; and the state is like a great and noble steed who is tardy in his motions owing to his very size, and requires to be stirred to life."

Hmmm. Curious.

They're similar but not connected (assuming that's what you are implying).

Why not?

I meant that, to my knowledge, no historian, psychologist, etc. has ever asserted that they are connected. I don't know; maybe you know something I don't.

I believe that it's at least open to inquiry.

Consider that the very first story (Euthyphro) is extremely religious in nature; that Socrates questions the nature of piety as it relates to Greek gods, but makes a distinction with a single capitalized God that seems to have more credibility; and that it's explained that Socrates is being impeached for "corrupting the youth by undermining established religion."

Yes, I see the similarities, even the religious ones; they were both murdered by the state for heresy according to their ancient biographers.


Moreover, in that conversation, it's implied that one must always question their own perspectives; that conclusions following personal inquiry cannot be dogmatic in nature; and that good will for one's fellow man is above all else.

That sounds precisely like Jesus.

What I boldfaced above sounds likes like Socrates but not Jesus. Where in the Bible does Jesus say anything like that?

Anyway, yes, I see the similarities but I don't see a historical or psychological (i.e., archetypal) connection.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
Franz_Reynard
Posts: 1,227
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1/8/2013 10:35:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2013 9:00:10 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 1/7/2013 7:53:22 PM, Franz_Reynard wrote:
At 1/7/2013 2:33:10 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 1/7/2013 11:19:26 AM, Franz_Reynard wrote:
At 1/7/2013 11:13:58 AM, vbaculum wrote:
At 1/6/2013 3:23:04 PM, Franz_Reynard wrote:
Quite a few philosophers here. Christians as well.

Do these two stories seem strikingly similar to anyone else? They directly coincide, with some character replacements, and more dramatism granted to the crucifixion (torture, crown of thorns, etc.).

However, the spirit remains the same. From the Apology:

"For if you kill me you will not easily find another like me, who, if I may use such a ludicrous figure of speech, am sort of a gadfly, given to the state by God; and the state is like a great and noble steed who is tardy in his motions owing to his very size, and requires to be stirred to life."

Hmmm. Curious.

They're similar but not connected (assuming that's what you are implying).

Why not?

I meant that, to my knowledge, no historian, psychologist, etc. has ever asserted that they are connected. I don't know; maybe you know something I don't.

I believe that it's at least open to inquiry.

Consider that the very first story (Euthyphro) is extremely religious in nature; that Socrates questions the nature of piety as it relates to Greek gods, but makes a distinction with a single capitalized God that seems to have more credibility; and that it's explained that Socrates is being impeached for "corrupting the youth by undermining established religion."

Yes, I see the similarities, even the religious ones; they were both murdered by the state for heresy according to their ancient biographers.


Moreover, in that conversation,

it's implied that one must always question their own perspectives;

Proverbs 3:5 "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding"

In terms of deception, from Jesus' won words (Matthew 24):

"Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."

that conclusions following personal inquiry cannot be dogmatic in nature;

Romans 2: "25 Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26 So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law"s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the[c] written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person"s praise is not from other people, but from God."

From Jesus' own words (Matthew 5):

"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

and that good will for one's fellow man is above all else.

That sounds precisely like Jesus.

What I boldfaced above sounds likes like Socrates but not Jesus. Where in the Bible does Jesus say anything like that?

Anyway, yes, I see the similarities but I don't see a historical or psychological (i.e., archetypal) connection.

A gadfly that comes to preach to the masses, and is prosecuted for compromising the established religious paradigm?

I mean... where does the connection deviate in your opinion?