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"Divine Feelings" are not reliable

twocupcakes
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1/7/2013 5:09:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
While there are many logical arguments for deism, many theists make the jump to a specific religions like Islam or Christianity because of "divine feelings". They say, I have "met/felt" Jesus or Mohamed or Zeus or the FSM ect. They say they know they are right because of divine feeling. However, divine feelings are not reliable.

There are "divine feelings" for many contradictory religions. So, not all these "divine feelings" can be correct. Most often, they are wrong. So, it is wrong for people to be sure of there religion because of divine feeling because, divine feelings are not reliable. The bottom line is that "divine feelings" are no reason to choose a religion because they are proven to be unreliable.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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1/7/2013 7:59:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2013 5:09:26 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
While there are many logical arguments for deism, many theists make the jump to a specific religions like Islam or Christianity because of "divine feelings". They say, I have "met/felt" Jesus or Mohamed or Zeus or the FSM ect. They say they know they are right because of divine feeling. However, divine feelings are not reliable.

There are "divine feelings" for many contradictory religions. So, not all these "divine feelings" can be correct. Most often, they are wrong. So, it is wrong for people to be sure of there religion because of divine feeling because, divine feelings are not reliable. The bottom line is that "divine feelings" are no reason to choose a religion because they are proven to be unreliable.


I wouldn't call my certainty, solely, a feeling, but it definately wasn't a decision i arrived at by my own choice.

What would you consider reliable?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,748
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1/7/2013 8:27:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2013 7:59:18 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 1/7/2013 5:09:26 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
While there are many logical arguments for deism, many theists make the jump to a specific religions like Islam or Christianity because of "divine feelings". They say, I have "met/felt" Jesus or Mohamed or Zeus or the FSM ect. They say they know they are right because of divine feeling. However, divine feelings are not reliable.

There are "divine feelings" for many contradictory religions. So, not all these "divine feelings" can be correct. Most often, they are wrong. So, it is wrong for people to be sure of there religion because of divine feeling because, divine feelings are not reliable. The bottom line is that "divine feelings" are no reason to choose a religion because they are proven to be unreliable.


I wouldn't call my certainty, solely, a feeling, but it definately wasn't a decision i arrived at by my own choice.

What would you consider reliable?

Science
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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1/7/2013 8:32:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2013 8:27:51 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 1/7/2013 7:59:18 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 1/7/2013 5:09:26 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
While there are many logical arguments for deism, many theists make the jump to a specific religions like Islam or Christianity because of "divine feelings". They say, I have "met/felt" Jesus or Mohamed or Zeus or the FSM ect. They say they know they are right because of divine feeling. However, divine feelings are not reliable.

There are "divine feelings" for many contradictory religions. So, not all these "divine feelings" can be correct. Most often, they are wrong. So, it is wrong for people to be sure of there religion because of divine feeling because, divine feelings are not reliable. The bottom line is that "divine feelings" are no reason to choose a religion because they are proven to be unreliable.


I wouldn't call my certainty, solely, a feeling, but it definately wasn't a decision i arrived at by my own choice.

What would you consider reliable?

Science

How do you know?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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1/7/2013 10:10:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2013 8:27:51 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
What would you consider reliable?

Science

What about the things science can't prove?
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,748
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1/7/2013 10:29:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2013 10:10:22 PM, stubs wrote:
At 1/7/2013 8:27:51 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
What would you consider reliable?

Science

What about the things science can't prove?

People must take an agnostic position until science confirms or denies.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,043
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1/7/2013 10:49:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2013 5:09:26 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
While there are many logical arguments for deism, many theists make the jump to a specific religions like Islam or Christianity because of "divine feelings". They say, I have "met/felt" Jesus or Mohamed or Zeus or the FSM ect. They say they know they are right because of divine feeling. However, divine feelings are not reliable.

There are "divine feelings" for many contradictory religions. So, not all these "divine feelings" can be correct. Most often, they are wrong. So, it is wrong for people to be sure of there religion because of divine feeling because, divine feelings are not reliable. The bottom line is that "divine feelings" are no reason to choose a religion because they are proven to be unreliable.

twocupcakes I agree with you.. The Mormon (LDS) will say.. "I believe because; I got a burning in my bosom!" Fact: They base their salvation on their own faith! Their own "Burning"!!

Dogknox
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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1/8/2013 12:51:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2013 5:09:26 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
However, divine feelings are not reliable.

I have a feeling that you're right.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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1/8/2013 12:52:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2013 10:29:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
People must take an agnostic position until science confirms or denies.

Has science confirmed or denied that? ^^
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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1/8/2013 1:52:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2013 5:09:26 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
While there are many logical arguments for deism, many theists make the jump to a specific religions like Islam or Christianity because of "divine feelings". They say, I have "met/felt" Jesus or Mohamed or Zeus or the FSM ect. They say they know they are right because of divine feeling. However, divine feelings are not reliable.

There are "divine feelings" for many contradictory religions. So, not all these "divine feelings" can be correct. Most often, they are wrong. So, it is wrong for people to be sure of there religion because of divine feeling because, divine feelings are not reliable. The bottom line is that "divine feelings" are no reason to choose a religion because they are proven to be unreliable.

Pease provide your argument for the reliability of the absense of "divine feelings".
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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1/8/2013 2:16:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/8/2013 1:52:42 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 1/7/2013 5:09:26 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
While there are many logical arguments for deism, many theists make the jump to a specific religions like Islam or Christianity because of "divine feelings". They say, I have "met/felt" Jesus or Mohamed or Zeus or the FSM ect. They say they know they are right because of divine feeling. However, divine feelings are not reliable.

There are "divine feelings" for many contradictory religions. So, not all these "divine feelings" can be correct. Most often, they are wrong. So, it is wrong for people to be sure of there religion because of divine feeling because, divine feelings are not reliable. The bottom line is that "divine feelings" are no reason to choose a religion because they are proven to be unreliable.

Pease provide your argument for the reliability of the absense of "divine feelings".

Allow me to explicate.

The vast majority of humans have experiences of transcendence, and while the Theistic conclusion is not logically coercive, it is a matter of faith of course, it does provide an intellectually satisfying way of making sense of the broadest possible band of human experience, of uniting in a single account, the rich and many layered encounter that we have with a reality that is experienced as full of value and purpose.

The vast majority of people experience color too, some don"t of course, but I"ve never seen a colorblind person try to make an argument that the perception of color is false. You seem to be saying that your experience of reality is the one true experience of reality, and everyone else"s experience is false. That sounds more like an assertion of a religious fundamentalist than anything resembling a logical argument.

Are you just claiming status for your own faith based belief or do you have an argument?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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1/8/2013 2:20:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2013 10:29:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 1/7/2013 10:10:22 PM, stubs wrote:
At 1/7/2013 8:27:51 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
What would you consider reliable?

Science

What about the things science can't prove?

People must take an agnostic position until science confirms or denies.

That certainly isn't a conclusion of science, I must assume it is an axiom of your faith.

Is your religion Scientism?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
stubs
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1/9/2013 5:13:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/8/2013 12:52:11 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/7/2013 10:29:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
People must take an agnostic position until science confirms or denies.

Has science confirmed or denied that? ^^
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,748
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1/9/2013 5:23:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/8/2013 2:16:06 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 1/8/2013 1:52:42 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 1/7/2013 5:09:26 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
While there are many logical arguments for deism, many theists make the jump to a specific religions like Islam or Christianity because of "divine feelings". They say, I have "met/felt" Jesus or Mohamed or Zeus or the FSM ect. They say they know they are right because of divine feeling. However, divine feelings are not reliable.

There are "divine feelings" for many contradictory religions. So, not all these "divine feelings" can be correct. Most often, they are wrong. So, it is wrong for people to be sure of there religion because of divine feeling because, divine feelings are not reliable. The bottom line is that "divine feelings" are no reason to choose a religion because they are proven to be unreliable.

Pease provide your argument for the reliability of the absense of "divine feelings".

Allow me to explicate.

The vast majority of humans have experiences of transcendence, and while the Theistic conclusion is not logically coercive, it is a matter of faith of course, it does provide an intellectually satisfying way of making sense of the broadest possible band of human experience, of uniting in a single account, the rich and many layered encounter that we have with a reality that is experienced as full of value and purpose.

The vast majority of people experience color too, some don"t of course, but I"ve never seen a colorblind person try to make an argument that the perception of color is false. You seem to be saying that your experience of reality is the one true experience of reality, and everyone else"s experience is false. That sounds more like an assertion of a religious fundamentalist than anything resembling a logical argument.

Are you just claiming status for your own faith based belief or do you have an argument?

I provided a brief argument in the OP. People have divine feeling for many contradictory religions than cannot co-exist. So, as only one religion can be correct, most often "divine feelings" are wrong at predicting. For example, if Mormonism is correct, all other people with "divine feelings" are wrong. And the same for all religions.

As it is impossible to differentiate "divine feelings" from one another (a feeling for Mormonism is just as sincere as that of Hinduism), there is no way to tell which divine feeling is correct. So, divine feelings are unreliable as they are most often wrong.
twocupcakes
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1/9/2013 5:24:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You mention people can see colour. However, colour is also verified by science (they can see light waves). So, the colour example supports my claim.
emospongebob527
Posts: 790
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1/9/2013 5:25:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/8/2013 12:52:11 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/7/2013 10:29:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
People must take an agnostic position until science confirms or denies.

Has science confirmed or denied that? ^^

What an oxymoronic cop-out to avoid addressing an argument...
"not to toot my own horn (it aint need no tooin if u know what im saying), but my writings on "viciousness: the one true viture (fancy spelling for virtue)" and my poem "A poem I wrote about DDO" put me in a class of my damn own. im just an UNRECONGIZED geniuse" -bananafana
twocupcakes
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1/9/2013 5:26:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/9/2013 5:13:47 PM, stubs wrote:
At 1/8/2013 12:52:11 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/7/2013 10:29:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
People must take an agnostic position until science confirms or denies.

Has science confirmed or denied that? ^^

Yes. Science/logic is a proven to be reliable, while divine feelings are not.

Which would you consider more reliable...

The mechanic has investigated that your brakes works fine?

The mechanic has a divine feeling that your breaks are fine?
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,748
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1/9/2013 5:30:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/9/2013 5:26:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 1/9/2013 5:13:47 PM, stubs wrote:
At 1/8/2013 12:52:11 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/7/2013 10:29:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
People must take an agnostic position until science confirms or denies.

Has science confirmed or denied that? ^^

Yes. Science/logic is a proven to be reliable, while divine feelings are not.

Which would you consider more reliable...

The mechanic has investigated that your brakes works fine?

The mechanic has a divine feeling that your breaks are fine?

^ so, as science/logic is the only reliable method of determining/predicting, a determination cannot be made by other means. So, an atheistic/agnostic position must be maintained.
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,748
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1/9/2013 5:33:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/8/2013 2:20:59 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 1/7/2013 10:29:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 1/7/2013 10:10:22 PM, stubs wrote:
At 1/7/2013 8:27:51 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
What would you consider reliable?

Science

What about the things science can't prove?

People must take an agnostic position until science confirms or denies.

That certainly isn't a conclusion of science, I must assume it is an axiom of your faith.

Is your religion Scientism?

It is an axiom of reality. If there is no way to logically/scientifically determine something, then there is no way of knowing. How can people determine things based on "divine feeling"?
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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1/9/2013 5:43:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/9/2013 5:25:17 PM, emospongebob527 wrote:
At 1/8/2013 12:52:11 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/7/2013 10:29:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
People must take an agnostic position until science confirms or denies.

Has science confirmed or denied that? ^^

What an oxymoronic cop-out to avoid addressing an argument...

It's actually a pretty direct rebuttal to the argument that empirical knowledge is the only reliable form of knowledge. Philochristos' response showed that twocupcakes' positivism makes certain assumptions that wouldn't be allowed under his own critera.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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1/9/2013 5:45:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/9/2013 5:26:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 1/9/2013 5:13:47 PM, stubs wrote:
At 1/8/2013 12:52:11 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/7/2013 10:29:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
People must take an agnostic position until science confirms or denies.

Has science confirmed or denied that? ^^

Yes. Science/logic is a proven to be reliable, while divine feelings are not.

Which would you consider more reliable...

The mechanic has investigated that your brakes works fine?

The mechanic has a divine feeling that your breaks are fine?

Wait, science has proven that science is reliable? On the contrary, the entire practice of science makes a variety of philosophical assumptions that simply can't be confirmed or denied by science, or else you'd be reasoning in a circle.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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1/9/2013 5:45:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/9/2013 5:30:22 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 1/9/2013 5:26:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 1/9/2013 5:13:47 PM, stubs wrote:
At 1/8/2013 12:52:11 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/7/2013 10:29:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
People must take an agnostic position until science confirms or denies.

Has science confirmed or denied that? ^^

Yes. Science/logic is a proven to be reliable, while divine feelings are not.

Which would you consider more reliable...

The mechanic has investigated that your brakes works fine?

The mechanic has a divine feeling that your breaks are fine?

^ so, as science/logic is the only reliable method of determining/predicting, a determination cannot be made by other means. So, an atheistic/agnostic position must be maintained.

Hmm.. So, you believe science should determine our religion or lack thereof.

If our faith is spiritual, and science has nothing to say about the spiritual, how can it be relied upon?

Isn't that like relying on my mechanic to tell me why my grass keeps dying?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,748
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1/9/2013 5:58:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hmm.. So, you believe science should determine our religion or lack thereof.

If our faith is spiritual, and science has nothing to say about the spiritual, how can it be relied upon?

Isn't that like relying on my mechanic to tell me why my grass keeps dying?

Yes, reason/science/logic can e applied to try and determine anything, including what supernatural phenomena exist.

So, with respect to your lawn, reason/logic/science can determine why your grass keeps dying.

Again, the biologist as reasoned that your lawn will now grow again

Or, the biologist as a divine feeling that your lawn will grow again
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,748
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1/9/2013 6:00:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/9/2013 5:45:11 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 1/9/2013 5:26:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 1/9/2013 5:13:47 PM, stubs wrote:
At 1/8/2013 12:52:11 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/7/2013 10:29:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
People must take an agnostic position until science confirms or denies.

Has science confirmed or denied that? ^^

Yes. Science/logic is a proven to be reliable, while divine feelings are not.

Which would you consider more reliable...

The mechanic has investigated that your brakes works fine?

The mechanic has a divine feeling that your breaks are fine?

Wait, science has proven that science is reliable? On the contrary, the entire practice of science makes a variety of philosophical assumptions that simply can't be confirmed or denied by science, or else you'd be reasoning in a circle.

Yes, the only way reason/logic/science is false is if reason/logic.science does not exist.

The hypocrisy comes from theists as they rely on reason/logic/science in all aspects of their lives except when it goes against divine feelings.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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1/9/2013 6:04:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/9/2013 5:26:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 1/9/2013 5:13:47 PM, stubs wrote:
At 1/8/2013 12:52:11 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/7/2013 10:29:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
People must take an agnostic position until science confirms or denies.

Has science confirmed or denied that? ^^

Yes. Science/logic is a proven to be reliable, while divine feelings are not.

That wasn't even the question haha. Can you show me through the scientific method that people must take an agnostic position until science confirms or denies it? That also means that you would have to be agnostic on metaphysical truths such as: There are minds other than your own, or the universe was not created 5 minutes ago with the appearance of age. The scientific method can prove none of that. Furthermore, you would have to be agnostic on mathematical truths because science cannot prove those either. Science presupposes math to be true. You believe lots of things to be true that science can never and will never be able to prove.
philochristos
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1/9/2013 6:04:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/9/2013 5:25:17 PM, emospongebob527 wrote:
At 1/8/2013 12:52:11 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/7/2013 10:29:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
People must take an agnostic position until science confirms or denies.

Has science confirmed or denied that? ^^

What an oxymoronic cop-out to avoid addressing an argument...

It's not a cop-out. It's an illustration of why the statement is self-refuting.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
philochristos
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1/9/2013 6:06:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/9/2013 5:26:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 1/9/2013 5:13:47 PM, stubs wrote:
At 1/8/2013 12:52:11 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/7/2013 10:29:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
People must take an agnostic position until science confirms or denies.

Has science confirmed or denied that? ^^

Yes. Science/logic is a proven to be reliable, while divine feelings are not.

But your statement wasn't that "Science/logic is proven to be reliable," (even though that's a self-refuting statement as well). Rather, your statement was "People must take an agnostic position until science confirms or denies." So, I'll ask you again. Has science confirmed or denied that "People must take an agnostic position until science confirms or denies"?
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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1/9/2013 6:08:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/9/2013 5:30:22 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 1/9/2013 5:26:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 1/9/2013 5:13:47 PM, stubs wrote:
At 1/8/2013 12:52:11 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/7/2013 10:29:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
People must take an agnostic position until science confirms or denies.

Has science confirmed or denied that? ^^

Yes. Science/logic is a proven to be reliable, while divine feelings are not.

Which would you consider more reliable...

The mechanic has investigated that your brakes works fine?

The mechanic has a divine feeling that your breaks are fine?

^ so, as science/logic is the only reliable method of determining/predicting, a determination cannot be made by other means. So, an atheistic/agnostic position must be maintained.

But that doesn't follow. Besides, that's a self-refuting statement to say that "science/logic is the only reliable method of determining/predicting."
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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1/9/2013 6:10:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/9/2013 5:45:11 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
Wait, science has proven that science is reliable?

Yeah, apparently twocupcakes thinks circular reasoning is acceptable in a scientific method.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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1/9/2013 6:18:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/9/2013 5:26:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 1/9/2013 5:13:47 PM, stubs wrote:
At 1/8/2013 12:52:11 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/7/2013 10:29:17 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
People must take an agnostic position until science confirms or denies.

Has science confirmed or denied that? ^^

Yes. Science/logic is a proven to be reliable, while divine feelings are not.

Which would you consider more reliable...

The mechanic has investigated that your brakes works fine?

The mechanic has a divine feeling that your breaks are fine?

*whoosh*
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!