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Pantheism

Volkov
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10/27/2009 12:53:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I know a few prominent members of DDO are now considering themselves "pantheists."

I know the general definition of pantheism - that God is literally all-encompassing, and that the universe, reality, laws of nature, etc., are all really what "God" is, instead of God's creations - but as someone who takes a relatively simple view of God and doesn't try to get caught up in all the complexities of reality (I fail on regular occasions), what can you tell me about the idea of a pantheist God, and how it relates to our reality? What proof of it do you have? Or is this the same deal with a Judeo-Christian God, and is based more on "faith" than anything else?

To opponents of pantheism, what are the arguments against?

Thanks to anyone that answers.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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10/27/2009 12:57:29 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
The arguments against Pantheism, is that Pantheism is a copout answer to the question of whether or not a God exists.

If God is simply the universe, then great. Youve just found another word for "The universe". Which is fine, but i find no reason to claim it, since we already have a working word for the universe, which just happens to be "The universe".

Secondly, we find no evidence to believe that any of it is conscious. A non-conscious God would not be a God at all.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/27/2009 2:35:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/27/2009 12:57:29 PM, tkubok wrote:
The arguments against Pantheism, is that Pantheism is a copout answer to the question of whether or not a God exists.

If God is simply the universe, then great. Youve just found another word for "The universe". Which is fine, but i find no reason to claim it, since we already have a working word for the universe, which just happens to be "The universe".

Secondly, we find no evidence to believe that any of it is conscious. A non-conscious God would not be a God at all.

First and foremost, I AM NOT A PANTHEIST.

Anyway, a few problems with this guy's argument.

First, atheists obviously acknowledge "the universe" but pantheists acknowledge the universe as God or a God, so no, they're not the same or interchangeable terms... mostly because an atheist would tell you that there's no rhyme or reason for the universe, and that it just 'is.' A pantheist would tell you different.

On that note, if you acknowledge the universe, but can't identify a creator or a reason why it exists, then you've got the same problem that theists do. The same way a theist can't explain how God came to be or why God is, atheists can't tell you how the universe came to be or why it is. To say "it just has to logically exist" is the same argument that can be applied to God (albeit not the Abrahamic God, which is just logically impossible).

Also, why does God have to be conscience? I'm not arguing against it, I'd just like your particular explanation.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/27/2009 2:36:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Edit: Also, why does God have to be conscious? I'm not arguing against it, I'd just like your particular explanation.

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Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
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10/27/2009 2:42:31 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/27/2009 12:53:04 PM, Volkov wrote:
I know a few prominent members of DDO are now considering themselves "pantheists."

I know the general definition of pantheism - that God is literally all-encompassing, and that the universe, reality, laws of nature, etc., are all really what "God" is, instead of God's creations - but as someone who takes a relatively simple view of God and doesn't try to get caught up in all the complexities of reality (I fail on regular occasions), what can you tell me about the idea of a pantheist God, and how it relates to our reality? What proof of it do you have? Or is this the same deal with a Judeo-Christian God, and is based more on "faith" than anything else?

To opponents of pantheism, what are the arguments against?

Thanks to anyone that answers.

Oh god... (no pun intended)... if you're talking about me, I'm not a pantheist.
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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10/27/2009 2:55:15 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
On that note, if you acknowledge the universe, but can't identify a creator or a reason why it exists, then you've got the same problem that theists do. The same way a theist can't explain how God came to be or why God is, atheists can't tell you how the universe came to be or why it is.

This is not a problem. One doesn't need to know why something is there, if one knows that it is. The only reason it's a problem for some theists that they can't explain where God came from is that they believe it to be a problem that atheists cannot explain an origin of a universe and are therefore inconsistent.

A universe coming from anywhere, btw, is also inconsistent.

As for the first post:
Ascribing Godhood to the universe, first, inappropriately defines it as a single entity when both you and I are in the universe and are separate entities, and there are other things that are separate yet.. Second, it demands that the question be asked-- what the hell do you mean by god?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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10/27/2009 3:03:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
There are no arguments against pantheism, so don't try. :)

I consider myself to be a pantheist, and I don't use it as just another way to define "Universe" as tkubok suggested. My view is that the Universe (Multiverse actually) has always existed and therefore no creation is necessary. This Universe is in itself, conscious, so I'm not making the same assertion as atheists. Everything is consciousness, just at different levels of it.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/27/2009 3:05:57 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/27/2009 2:56:35 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
I thought the Danielle-Mimoza house was Pantheism HQ

No. This is just more of your lies and propaganda, as I've always said.
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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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10/27/2009 3:07:21 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
By believing that God is everything, your belief is contradictory to the definition of God. Humans are able to create things, so there's a contradictions there already, because God cannot be created. I know that Pantheists don't believe in the same God as Jews, Christians, and Muslims, but it seems absurd to believe in a higher power without a creator.

And atheists, as long as you don't tell me when it all began, I don't need answers on anything else regarding your belief.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/27/2009 3:07:30 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/27/2009 3:03:12 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
There are no arguments against pantheism, so don't try. :)

Everything is consciousness, just at different levels of it.

Proof plz.
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Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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10/27/2009 3:11:44 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
This Universe is in itself, conscious
I'm conscious. You're conscious. We're both part of the universe. Yet our consciousnesses do not seem to mix, as one would expect them to if consciousness were an attribute of the universe rather than of individual human beings-- I do not know your favorite food, and yet you do.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/27/2009 3:16:06 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Let me clarify:

Back in April 2007, I had this crazy experience (lol) that had me thinking all kinds of silly things. One of them was that I was a pantheist. I became interested in it and read a lot of philosophy (not nearly enough physics) about it. When I told Mimoza this once, she laughed at me LOL as most people tend to do.

Anyway, after a lot of thinking, reading, introspection, education, etc. I've come to really become very interested in Spinoza's god. To me, Spinoza's god is more logically probable than the idea of NO god. I consider the Abrahamic god to be completely impossible, but as JBlake said, people confuse deists with theists. I think that a god can exist that's not the Abrahamic God.

Think of it is way: There are no logical conclusive arguments against the brain the vat theory; there are no logical conclusive arguments that we're not living in a virtual reality either. Similarly, there are no logical arguments that disprove the idea of a deity any more than there are logical arguments to prove that no god exists (atheism).

The problem here is that Vi alluded to the fact that doing drugs has opened her eyes in this regard; I think JBlake and others mistook that for her (and I) to becoming illogical and hippy-ish and letting that influence our decision. Well 2 things on that: First, we've given this A LOT of sober thought (You've got 3 intellectuals living under 1 roof, 2 of whom - us - are dating)... And second, so what? There's a lot of research linking drugs and knowledge, which is what she's doing her independent research study on (I'm helping - hehe) so in that regard you're making assumptions about these drugs and/or the experiences people have on these drugs.

Nevertheless, I think Ragnar's points are kind of blah. I'm writing a debate now but I'll get back to it.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/27/2009 3:20:10 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Oh to clarify:

Spinoza isn't a pantheist; he's a panentheist.

Now I'm not saying I am. I said I find his god to be super interesting and hard to disprove. Then again, even if you can disprove it, you can't disprove a deist god... So we can go in circles all day. I'm open to it, and I think it's kind of sad that anyone who is kind of gets pounced on as being illogical like Vi said. Everyone believes what they feel to be the most probable. Even if the universe exists as atheists say it does, doesn't mean that the universe can't be a description for god. Why does god have to be conscious? The problem is of course that a deist can define god any way that they want.
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Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
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10/27/2009 3:20:22 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/27/2009 2:55:15 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:

As for the first post:
Ascribing Godhood to the universe, first, inappropriately defines it as a single entity when both you and I are in the universe and are separate entities, and there are other things that are separate yet.. Second, it demands that the question be asked-- what the hell do you mean by god?

How are you a separate entity from the universe?

u·ni·verse (yn-vûrs)
n.
1. All matter and energy, including the earth, the galaxies, and the contents of intergalactic space, regarded as a whole.
2.
a. The earth together with all its inhabitants and created things.
b. The human race.
3. The sphere or realm in which something exists or takes place.
4. Logic See universe of discourse.
5. Statistics See population.
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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10/27/2009 3:23:09 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/27/2009 3:07:30 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 10/27/2009 3:03:12 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
There are no arguments against pantheism, so don't try. :)

Everything is consciousness, just at different levels of it.

Proof plz.

Scientific Evidence of a Living Conscious Universe
http://www.mindpowernews.com...

Scientist David Wilcock's e-books on consciousness science and cosmology
http://divinecosmos.com...

http://www.amitgoswami.org...

Though, I wonder why you as a panentheist is asking a pantheist for proof. :) Panentheism is making a bit more extraordinary claim, imo.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
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10/27/2009 3:24:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/27/2009 3:07:21 PM, Mirza wrote:
By believing that God is everything, your belief is contradictory to the definition of God. Humans are able to create things, so there's a contradictions there already, because God cannot be created. I know that Pantheists don't believe in the same God as Jews, Christians, and Muslims, but it seems absurd to believe in a higher power without a creator.

And atheists, as long as you don't tell me when it all began, I don't need answers on anything else regarding your belief.

Humans just manipulate what is already here - they don't "create" anything.
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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10/27/2009 3:27:54 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/27/2009 3:05:57 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 10/27/2009 2:56:35 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
I thought the Danielle-Mimoza house was Pantheism HQ

No. This is just more of your lies and propaganda, as I've always said.

I smell a flip flopper!
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/27/2009 3:29:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/27/2009 3:27:54 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 10/27/2009 3:05:57 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 10/27/2009 2:56:35 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
I thought the Danielle-Mimoza house was Pantheism HQ

No. This is just more of your lies and propaganda, as I've always said.

I smell a flip flopper!

You just better hope I win, because I will allow gays in the military.
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comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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10/27/2009 3:32:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/27/2009 3:29:48 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 10/27/2009 3:27:54 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 10/27/2009 3:05:57 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 10/27/2009 2:56:35 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
I thought the Danielle-Mimoza house was Pantheism HQ

No. This is just more of your lies and propaganda, as I've always said.

I smell a flip flopper!

You just better hope I win, because I will allow gays in the military.

Well, why don't you guys hold a debate!

in the forums... someone format it... and lets see...
a list, one topic at a time.

then we can do a vp debate.
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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10/27/2009 3:32:27 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/27/2009 3:20:10 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Oh to clarify:

Spinoza isn't a pantheist; he's a panentheist.

Now I'm not saying I am. I said I find his god to be super interesting and hard to disprove. Then again, even if you can disprove it, you can't disprove a deist god... So we can go in circles all day. I'm open to it, and I think it's kind of sad that anyone who is kind of gets pounced on as being illogical like Vi said. Everyone believes what they feel to be the most probable. Even if the universe exists as atheists say it does, doesn't mean that the universe can't be a description for god. Why does god have to be conscious? The problem is of course that a deist can define god any way that they want.

I agree. Deistic gods cannot be disproven. But any attempt to ascribe attributes to said god beyond creating the universe and the laws of physics fails. Once you begin ascribing attributes, your god can be disproven (Abrahamic God, Spinoza's God, The Conscious Universe).
Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
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10/27/2009 3:33:18 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/27/2009 3:32:12 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 10/27/2009 3:29:48 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 10/27/2009 3:27:54 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 10/27/2009 3:05:57 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 10/27/2009 2:56:35 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
I thought the Danielle-Mimoza house was Pantheism HQ

No. This is just more of your lies and propaganda, as I've always said.

I smell a flip flopper!

You just better hope I win, because I will allow gays in the military.

Well, why don't you guys hold a debate!

in the forums... someone format it... and lets see...
a list, one topic at a time.

then we can do a vp debate.

I think that's what they're going to do. It would be funny : )
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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10/27/2009 3:33:29 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/27/2009 3:32:12 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 10/27/2009 3:29:48 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 10/27/2009 3:27:54 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 10/27/2009 3:05:57 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 10/27/2009 2:56:35 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
I thought the Danielle-Mimoza house was Pantheism HQ

No. This is just more of your lies and propaganda, as I've always said.

I smell a flip flopper!

You just better hope I win, because I will allow gays in the military.

Well, why don't you guys hold a debate!

in the forums... someone format it... and lets see...
a list, one topic at a time.

then we can do a vp debate.

That is an excellent idea. The next round of DDO Presidential Election will definitely have this. It will also have a proper nominating process.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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10/27/2009 3:34:39 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/27/2009 3:33:29 PM, JBlake wrote:
At 10/27/2009 3:32:12 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 10/27/2009 3:29:48 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 10/27/2009 3:27:54 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 10/27/2009 3:05:57 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 10/27/2009 2:56:35 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
I thought the Danielle-Mimoza house was Pantheism HQ

No. This is just more of your lies and propaganda, as I've always said.

I smell a flip flopper!

You just better hope I win, because I will allow gays in the military.

Well, why don't you guys hold a debate!

in the forums... someone format it... and lets see...
a list, one topic at a time.

then we can do a vp debate.

That is an excellent idea. The next round of DDO Presidential Election will definitely have this. It will also have a proper nominating process.

I agree, this sounds like fun!
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/27/2009 3:37:09 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/27/2009 3:24:28 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:

Humans just manipulate what is already here - they don't "create" anything.

Yes.

Think of sand on a beach. If I build a sand castle, and Vi builds a sand castle, those are 2 separate sand castles no doubt. But, they're from the same sand. And we can't create that sand (spare me the artificial sand speech, plz). Similarly, we are all made of energy. Everything is energy. We can't create energy; we can't destroy energy. When someone dies, or even when a fetus is aborted, that energy is simply manipulated into something else. We can each be separate conscious individuals that together compose of a universe which may or may not be conscious... I'm still trying to figure that out.

Again, I'm no DATCMOTO so it's kind of disheartening to see such adamant resistance without even debating and instead still sort of preaching. I mean I think Vi's point was that it was good for her to question her firm atheist stance the same way atheists expect theists to question their firm theist stance. A lot of people here are really closed-minded and self-assured in all of their opinions, I think.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/27/2009 3:38:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
JBlake: Disprove Spinoza's god. Einstein couldn't do it -- let's see if you can :)

Or better yet, have Ragnar take a shot :D
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/27/2009 3:38:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/27/2009 3:33:29 PM, JBlake wrote:

That is an excellent idea. The next round of DDO Presidential Election will definitely have this. It will also have a proper nominating process.

Lol maybe you should start over.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/27/2009 3:44:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Just throwing this out there:

If I were really running for DDO president, I would probably pick Vi as my running-mate... not because she's my girlfriend (seriously) but because I think she's moderate in her politics just as I am. Clearly Volkov is too liberal for my blood (I'm a little liberal) -- Ragnar is too Ragnar (I'm a little Ragnar) -- and Cody, well, I'm no Cody. But anyway, carry on, friends, and disprove Spinoza's god. It's a theory I like very much; I'm still working it out... please don't group my beliefs with Geo's though lol I don't agree with him on a lot of things, so.
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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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10/27/2009 3:47:55 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/27/2009 3:24:28 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:
At 10/27/2009 3:07:21 PM, Mirza wrote:
By believing that God is everything, your belief is contradictory to the definition of God. Humans are able to create things, so there's a contradictions there already, because God cannot be created. I know that Pantheists don't believe in the same God as Jews, Christians, and Muslims, but it seems absurd to believe in a higher power without a creator.

And atheists, as long as you don't tell me when it all began, I don't need answers on anything else regarding your belief.

Humans just manipulate what is already here - they don't "create" anything.
They do create things. They do not create the ingredients (assuming we're talking about natural things, e.g. stones, water), but they do create the product.

This belief is just as illogical to me as atheism.