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Why Did God Create Temptation?

Warabe
Posts: 10
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1/29/2013 10:54:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
An interesting thought dawned upon me a few days ago that deserves some discussion. It has everything to do with creation and the "Garden of Eden" scene where Eve eats the fruit of the forbidden tree, after being tempted by serpent-form Satan to eat it.

Why was Eve temptable in the first place? Why would God, knowingly, place a flaw into the nature of humanity that allows sin to take hold in us and turn us away from pursuing him out of our own free will without having to worry about the consequences of Hell?
Suqua
Posts: 433
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1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/29/2013 10:54:04 PM, Warabe wrote:
An interesting thought dawned upon me a few days ago that deserves some discussion. It has everything to do with creation and the "Garden of Eden" scene where Eve eats the fruit of the forbidden tree, after being tempted by serpent-form Satan to eat it.

Why was Eve temptable in the first place? Why would God, knowingly, place a flaw into the nature of humanity that allows sin to take hold in us and turn us away from pursuing him out of our own free will without having to worry about the consequences of Hell?

Hello! And welcome

Do you enjoy your ability to choose?
This is a gift. So choice, is a flaw? There are no other choices that are on the opposite ends of each other. Good, bad, wrong, right etc.
This was their test, as small as it may seem, seeing thay had all the food they needed.
They had freedom to choose their way, just like Lucifer in heaven did.
God made us free moral agents, and God saw that it was very good. Not to choose wrong, but love must beget love, no force allowed. James 1:13,14, Rom 6:16, Gen 6:31
Hell is absence from God, for He is life. So if you are drawn to God, and not do fight it,which we usually struggle, thats why so many are not at peace, God will work in you, both to will and to do Phil. 2:13
Warabe
Posts: 10
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1/30/2013 10:26:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
At 1/29/2013 10:54:04 PM, Warabe wrote:
An interesting thought dawned upon me a few days ago that deserves some discussion. It has everything to do with creation and the "Garden of Eden" scene where Eve eats the fruit of the forbidden tree, after being tempted by serpent-form Satan to eat it.

Why was Eve temptable in the first place? Why would God, knowingly, place a flaw into the nature of humanity that allows sin to take hold in us and turn us away from pursuing him out of our own free will without having to worry about the consequences of Hell?

Hello! And welcome

Do you enjoy your ability to choose?
This is a gift. So choice, is a flaw? There are no other choices that are on the opposite ends of each other. Good, bad, wrong, right etc.
This was their test, as small as it may seem, seeing thay had all the food they needed.
They had freedom to choose their way, just like Lucifer in heaven did.
God made us free moral agents, and God saw that it was very good. Not to choose wrong, but love must beget love, no force allowed. James 1:13,14, Rom 6:16, Gen 6:31
Hell is absence from God, for He is life. So if you are drawn to God, and not do fight it,which we usually struggle, thats why so many are not at peace, God will work in you, both to will and to do Phil. 2:13

Thank you for your response!

While what you're saying makes sense in a very limited scope, allow me to broaden your horizons a little.

Why does free will necessitate a choice between sin and God? Why does the dichotomy have to be bad and good, instead of a much better pair of choices: good and okay?

Consider the following scenario: I have the choice between choosing to follow God and not choosing to follow God. I choose to follow God and live a moral life. The other option is I choose not to follow God and still live a moral life. Of course there's a third option: I choose not to follow God and live an immoral life, but I ignore it. Why?

Because the entire concept of sin didn't exist until Eve ate the apples. If Sin didn't exist to pull us astray from the path of God, we would all willingly choose to follow God anyway. So why did he allow for the possibility of sin when not doing so fails to violate our free-will?

Of course, this all assumes that free will exists under Christian Doctrine but that's a topic for another day.
Suqua
Posts: 433
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2/4/2013 12:51:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/30/2013 10:26:17 AM, Warabe wrote:
At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
At 1/29/2013 10:54:04 PM, Warabe wrote:
An interesting thought dawned upon me a few days ago that deserves some discussion. It has everything to do with creation and the "Garden of Eden" scene where Eve eats the fruit of the forbidden tree, after being tempted by serpent-form Satan to eat it.

Why was Eve temptable in the first place? Why would God, knowingly, place a flaw into the nature of humanity that allows sin to take hold in us and turn us away from pursuing him out of our own free will without having to worry about the consequences of Hell?

Hello! And welcome

Do you enjoy your ability to choose?
This is a gift. So choice, is a flaw? There are no other choices that are on the opposite ends of each other. Good, bad, wrong, right etc.
This was their test, as small as it may seem, seeing thay had all the food they needed.
They had freedom to choose their way, just like Lucifer in heaven did.
God made us free moral agents, and God saw that it was very good. Not to choose wrong, but love must beget love, no force allowed. James 1:13,14, Rom 6:16, Gen 6:31
Hell is absence from God, for He is life. So if you are drawn to God, and not do fight it,which we usually struggle, thats why so many are not at peace, God will work in you, both to will and to do Phil. 2:13

Thank you for your response!

While what you're saying makes sense in a very limited scope, allow me to broaden your horizons a little.

Why does free will necessitate a choice between sin and God? Why does the dichotomy have to be bad and good, instead of a much better pair of choices: good and okay?

Consider the following scenario: I have the choice between choosing to follow God and not choosing to follow God. I choose to follow God and live a moral life. The other option is I choose not to follow God and still live a moral life. Of course there's a third option: I choose not to follow God and live an immoral life, but I ignore it. Why?

Because the entire concept of sin didn't exist until Eve ate the apples. If Sin didn't exist to pull us astray from the path of God, we would all willingly choose to follow God anyway. So why did he allow for the possibility of sin when not doing so fails to violate our free-will?

Of course, this all assumes that free will exists under Christian Doctrine but that's a topic for another day.

I will be short. How much of the the bible have you read?
If you have lets say a choice between breathing and living, or stop breathing and death. And these are your choices, but you would like another, but there isn't one, but you want what isn't a possibility. So you must come to grips with the fact that there are two choices and you are in charge of the choice that you make. And, yes, free-will exsists, but most likely not the way you think that it should. Because it sounds like you want a third choice that doesnt involve a negative reaction.
Would you like it of someone you loved could not freely choose to love you back?
KeithKroeger91
Posts: 178
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2/4/2013 1:18:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/29/2013 10:54:04 PM, Warabe wrote:
An interesting thought dawned upon me a few days ago that deserves some discussion. It has everything to do with creation and the "Garden of Eden" scene where Eve eats the fruit of the forbidden tree, after being tempted by serpent-form Satan to eat it.

Why was Eve temptable in the first place? Why would God, knowingly, place a flaw into the nature of humanity that allows sin to take hold in us and turn us away from pursuing him out of our own free will without having to worry about the consequences of Hell?

We all fall short of the Glory of God if there is anything that God CANT do it is to create a being that is equal too Himself... this being said there is not a answer to every possible "problem" in the Bible it was not written to be a book to defend it's self.. rather it was written as a History book. One that has been proven to be credible with archaeological findings... But this does not necessarily make it true.. at the end of the day it takes faith to believe, not human, reasoning... I am sure this sounds silly to a unbeliever.. but our simple human reasoning cannot and will never be able to understand God's glory.
I win ;D
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/4/2013 8:07:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/29/2013 10:54:04 PM, Warabe wrote:
An interesting thought dawned upon me a few days ago that deserves some discussion. It has everything to do with creation and the "Garden of Eden" scene where Eve eats the fruit of the forbidden tree, after being tempted by serpent-form Satan to eat it.

Why was Eve temptable in the first place? Why would God, knowingly, place a flaw into the nature of humanity that allows sin to take hold in us and turn us away from pursuing him out of our own free will without having to worry about the consequences of Hell?

Because every book needs conflict and an antagonist or no one would read it. One act plays are boring.

Who cares? Without this move by Eve, you lose out on the four-headed, fireball wielding monsters that God stationed at the entrance to Eden to keep his creations from ever coming back.

My question is why didn't Adam and Eve immediately become just as powerful as God given that they took in the knowledge of the Universe with their afternoon snack that day, and because there were 2 of them, how did they not kick the ever-loving sh*t out of God?
War is over, if you want it.

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GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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2/4/2013 10:02:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/30/2013 10:26:17 AM, Warabe wrote:
At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
At 1/29/2013 10:54:04 PM, Warabe wrote:
An interesting thought dawned upon me a few days ago that deserves some discussion. It has everything to do with creation and the "Garden of Eden" scene where Eve eats the fruit of the forbidden tree, after being tempted by serpent-form Satan to eat it.

Why was Eve temptable in the first place? Why would God, knowingly, place a flaw into the nature of humanity that allows sin to take hold in us and turn us away from pursuing him out of our own free will without having to worry about the consequences of Hell?

Hello! And welcome

Do you enjoy your ability to choose?
This is a gift. So choice, is a flaw? There are no other choices that are on the opposite ends of each other. Good, bad, wrong, right etc.
This was their test, as small as it may seem, seeing thay had all the food they needed.
They had freedom to choose their way, just like Lucifer in heaven did.
God made us free moral agents, and God saw that it was very good. Not to choose wrong, but love must beget love, no force allowed. James 1:13,14, Rom 6:16, Gen 6:31
Hell is absence from God, for He is life. So if you are drawn to God, and not do fight it,which we usually struggle, thats why so many are not at peace, God will work in you, both to will and to do Phil. 2:13

Thank you for your response!

While what you're saying makes sense in a very limited scope, allow me to broaden your horizons a little.

Why does free will necessitate a choice between sin and God? Why does the dichotomy have to be bad and good, instead of a much better pair of choices: good and okay?

According to my Catholic faith, there actually is a sort of third option, but not exactly like you described. Mortal sins damn you to hell, but venial sins require you to spend time being purged in purgatory for a while before you get to heaven.

It's not smart to plan on doing venial sins, just because you think you can get away with it, though. For all I know, planning on doing venial sins to take advantage of God's mercy could very well be a mortal sin in and of itself But I'm not sure.
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
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Fouler4990
Posts: 33
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2/4/2013 10:47:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
At 1/29/2013 10:54:04 PM, Warabe wrote:
An interesting thought dawned upon me a few days ago that deserves some discussion. It has everything to do with creation and the "Garden of Eden" scene where Eve eats the fruit of the forbidden tree, after being tempted by serpent-form Satan to eat it.

Why was Eve temptable in the first place? Why would God, knowingly, place a flaw into the nature of humanity that allows sin to take hold in us and turn us away from pursuing him out of our own free will without having to worry about the consequences of Hell?

Hello! And welcome

Do you enjoy your ability to choose?
This is a gift. So choice, is a flaw? There are no other choices that are on the opposite ends of each other. Good, bad, wrong, right etc.

I would disagree upon that. Every choice is made for a reason. Whether that choice was good or bad is decided by person based upon the profit that 'choice' brought to him/her.
Here, by profit I mean material ad/or physical and/or emotional profit.
------------------------------------------
the well wisher of humanity
~ Fouler4990
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/4/2013 9:50:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/4/2013 10:02:28 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/30/2013 10:26:17 AM, Warabe wrote:
At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
At 1/29/2013 10:54:04 PM, Warabe wrote:
An interesting thought dawned upon me a few days ago that deserves some discussion. It has everything to do with creation and the "Garden of Eden" scene where Eve eats the fruit of the forbidden tree, after being tempted by serpent-form Satan to eat it.

Why was Eve temptable in the first place? Why would God, knowingly, place a flaw into the nature of humanity that allows sin to take hold in us and turn us away from pursuing him out of our own free will without having to worry about the consequences of Hell?

Hello! And welcome

Do you enjoy your ability to choose?
This is a gift. So choice, is a flaw? There are no other choices that are on the opposite ends of each other. Good, bad, wrong, right etc.
This was their test, as small as it may seem, seeing thay had all the food they needed.
They had freedom to choose their way, just like Lucifer in heaven did.
God made us free moral agents, and God saw that it was very good. Not to choose wrong, but love must beget love, no force allowed. James 1:13,14, Rom 6:16, Gen 6:31
Hell is absence from God, for He is life. So if you are drawn to God, and not do fight it,which we usually struggle, thats why so many are not at peace, God will work in you, both to will and to do Phil. 2:13

Thank you for your response!

While what you're saying makes sense in a very limited scope, allow me to broaden your horizons a little.

Why does free will necessitate a choice between sin and God? Why does the dichotomy have to be bad and good, instead of a much better pair of choices: good and okay?

According to my Catholic faith, there actually is a sort of third option, but not exactly like you described. Mortal sins damn you to hell, but venial sins require you to spend time being purged in purgatory for a while before you get to heaven.

It's not smart to plan on doing venial sins, just because you think you can get away with it, though. For all I know, planning on doing venial sins to take advantage of God's mercy could very well be a mortal sin in and of itself But I'm not sure.

Mortal sin is a construct of The Catholic Church, specifically. There is no mention of mortal sin in the bible.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
Suqua
Posts: 433
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2/4/2013 10:40:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/4/2013 8:07:08 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 1/29/2013 10:54:04 PM, Warabe wrote:
An interesting thought dawned upon me a few days ago that deserves some discussion. It has everything to do with creation and the "Garden of Eden" scene where Eve eats the fruit of the forbidden tree, after being tempted by serpent-form Satan to eat it.

Why was Eve temptable in the first place? Why would God, knowingly, place a flaw into the nature of humanity that allows sin to take hold in us and turn us away from pursuing him out of our own free will without having to worry about the consequences of Hell?

Because every book needs conflict and an antagonist or no one would read it. One act plays are boring.

Who cares? Without this move by Eve, you lose out on the four-headed, fireball wielding monsters that God stationed at the entrance to Eden to keep his creations from ever coming back.

My question is why didn't Adam and Eve immediately become just as powerful as God given that they took in the knowledge of the Universe with their afternoon snack that day, and because there were 2 of them, how did they not kick the ever-loving sh*t out of God?

You didn't catch the lie thingy with the snake, did you. LOL you would become as Gods, not, well in your own deceived mind anyway, I quess!

Suqua
Posts: 433
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2/4/2013 10:43:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/4/2013 10:47:53 AM, Fouler4990 wrote:
At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
At 1/29/2013 10:54:04 PM, Warabe wrote:
An interesting thought dawned upon me a few days ago that deserves some discussion. It has everything to do with creation and the "Garden of Eden" scene where Eve eats the fruit of the forbidden tree, after being tempted by serpent-form Satan to eat it.

Why was Eve temptable in the first place? Why would God, knowingly, place a flaw into the nature of humanity that allows sin to take hold in us and turn us away from pursuing him out of our own free will without having to worry about the consequences of Hell?

Hello! And welcome

Do you enjoy your ability to choose?
This is a gift. So choice, is a flaw? There are no other choices that are on the opposite ends of each other. Good, bad, wrong, right etc.

I would disagree upon that. Every choice is made for a reason. Whether that choice was good or bad is decided by person based upon the profit that 'choice' brought to him/her.
Here, by profit I mean material ad/or physical and/or emotional profit.

But we're not talking about reasons for your choice? Just that you are given a choice.
Suqua
Posts: 433
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2/4/2013 10:50:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/4/2013 10:43:46 PM, Suqua wrote:
At 2/4/2013 10:47:53 AM, Fouler4990 wrote:
At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
At 1/29/2013 10:54:04 PM, Warabe wrote:
An interesting thought dawned upon me a few days ago that deserves some discussion. It has everything to do with creation and the "Garden of Eden" scene where Eve eats the fruit of the forbidden tree, after being tempted by serpent-form Satan to eat it.

Why was Eve temptable in the first place? Why would God, knowingly, place a flaw into the nature of humanity that allows sin to take hold in us and turn us away from pursuing him out of our own free will without having to worry about the consequences of Hell?

Hello! And welcome

Do you enjoy your ability to choose?
This is a gift. So choice, is a flaw? There are no other choices, but, that are on the opposite ends of each other. Good, bad, wrong, right etc.

I would disagree upon that. Every choice is made for a reason. Whether that choice was good or bad is decided by person based upon the profit that 'choice' brought to him/her.
Here, by profit I mean material ad/or physical and/or emotional profit.

But we're not talking about reasons for your choice? Just that you are given a choice.

Just had to add, but, which I had missed. Sorry!
Fouler4990
Posts: 33
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2/5/2013 2:28:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/4/2013 10:43:46 PM, Suqua wrote:
At 2/4/2013 10:47:53 AM, Fouler4990 wrote:
At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
At 1/29/2013 10:54:04 PM, Warabe wrote:
An interesting thought dawned upon me a few days ago that deserves some discussion. It has everything to do with creation and the "Garden of Eden" scene where Eve eats the fruit of the forbidden tree, after being tempted by serpent-form Satan to eat it.

Why was Eve temptable in the first place? Why would God, knowingly, place a flaw into the nature of humanity that allows sin to take hold in us and turn us away from pursuing him out of our own free will without having to worry about the consequences of Hell?

Hello! And welcome

Do you enjoy your ability to choose?
This is a gift. So choice, is a flaw? There are no other choices that are on the opposite ends of each other. Good, bad, wrong, right etc.

I would disagree upon that. Every choice is made for a reason. Whether that choice was good or bad is decided by person based upon the profit that 'choice' brought to him/her.
Here, by profit I mean material ad/or physical and/or emotional profit.

But we're not talking about reasons for your choice? Just that you are given a choice.

Yes. But all I'm saying is that the 'opposite ends of every choice', which you mentioned, are declared by the observe of the 'choice'. Hence it's different for every observer.
------------------------------------------
the well wisher of humanity
~ Fouler4990
Fouler4990
Posts: 33
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2/5/2013 2:30:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/4/2013 10:50:30 PM, Suqua wrote:
At 2/4/2013 10:43:46 PM, Suqua wrote:
At 2/4/2013 10:47:53 AM, Fouler4990 wrote:
At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
At 1/29/2013 10:54:04 PM, Warabe wrote:
An interesting thought dawned upon me a few days ago that deserves some discussion. It has everything to do with creation and the "Garden of Eden" scene where Eve eats the fruit of the forbidden tree, after being tempted by serpent-form Satan to eat it.

Why was Eve temptable in the first place? Why would God, knowingly, place a flaw into the nature of humanity that allows sin to take hold in us and turn us away from pursuing him out of our own free will without having to worry about the consequences of Hell?

Hello! And welcome

Do you enjoy your ability to choose?
This is a gift. So choice, is a flaw? There are no other choices, but, that are on the opposite ends of each other. Good, bad, wrong, right etc.

I would disagree upon that. Every choice is made for a reason. Whether that choice was good or bad is decided by person based upon the profit that 'choice' brought to him/her.
Here, by profit I mean material ad/or physical and/or emotional profit.

But we're not talking about reasons for your choice? Just that you are given a choice.

Just had to add, but, which I had missed. Sorry!

Sorry, but I didn't get what you said here.
------------------------------------------
the well wisher of humanity
~ Fouler4990
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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2/5/2013 3:53:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/29/2013 10:54:04 PM, Warabe wrote:
An interesting thought dawned upon me a few days ago that deserves some discussion. It has everything to do with creation and the "Garden of Eden" scene where Eve eats the fruit of the forbidden tree, after being tempted by serpent-form Satan to eat it.

Whoa!

1. Story book Eve was NEVER commanded by Story book god NOT to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil/TOTKOG&E!

2. There is NO mention of any Satan present in the Garden of Eden (Yes I am familiar with the Rev. 12:9 Story book text, which doesn't legitimately equate!)

3. The ONLY teller of Truth in the Garden of Eden was ' the Serpent! '.

Story book god lied (cf. Gen. 2:17) they died neither Spiritually nor literally ' that day ' as Story book god had said!

In fact they were already created ' mortal ' hence subject to death from Day 1 of their Creation and Story book god again lied that they later brought death upon themselves!

4. Hypothetically speaking, IF this alleged Genesis-Edenic Serpent were extremely naughty, evil & the greatest of tempters, then it was Story book god that placed it there to trap those two innocents!

So called xtianity is ultimately a lie from start to finish!
Composer
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2/5/2013 5:30:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/4/2013 10:02:28 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
According to my Catholic faith, there actually is a sort of third option, but not exactly like you described. Mortal sins damn you to hell, but venial sins require you to spend time being purged in purgatory for a while before you get to heaven.

Could I please examine your preferred Story book acclaimed evidence that ALL genuine believers are bound for Story book heaven where Story book jebus went?
Composer
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2/5/2013 6:04:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
Do you enjoy your ability to choose?
This is a gift. So choice, is a flaw? There are no other choices that are on the opposite ends of each other. Good, bad, wrong, right etc.
This was their test, as small as it may seem, seeing thay had all the food they needed.

IF those claiming to be xtians claim they have a Free-Will choice, then why do they ALL (including YOU) freely choose to remain a malignant sinner?

At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
They had freedom to choose their way,

Incorrect!

Freedom/Free-Will to choose is just that! Freedom to choose, without threats or coersion!

Noun: free will
The power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies.

Adjective: Done of your own accord. (Wordweb)

Conversely however there was NO Freedom/Free-Will to choose, because the threat of consequences of death for choosing ' to partake ' loomed over at least Adam! (Gen. 2:17) KJV Story book

At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
just like Lucifer in heaven did.

Step 1: You make so many fundamental blunders, let's now examine your alleged Story book evidence that a ' naughty spirit angel being called Lucifer ' was present in Story book heaven only later to be expelled with its pals?

At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
God made us free moral agents,

Apart from a 100% human concocted Story book let me now examine your evidence that a) ANY literal Supernatural god(s) exist?

b) That ANY were involved in allocating us as ' free moral agents? '. Evidence & examples please?

At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
and God saw that it was very good.

Hmm!

Why do you say Story book god thought your naughty Satan was ' very good? '.

At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
Not to choose wrong, but love must beget love, no force allowed. James 1:13,14, Rom 6:16, Gen 6:31

Then explain the contradiction? -

But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me."" (Luke 19:27) English Standard Version/ESV Story book

At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
Hell is absence from God,

BS according to your Story book! -

. . . . : if I make my bed in hell , behold, thou [art there]. (Psalm 139:8) KJV Story book

At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
for He is life.

Apart from your preferred Story book let's see what actual evidence you have that -

ANY literal Supernatural god/power literally exists?

That ANY such god/power is literally masculine gender (he)?

You may wish to start a separate Thread to answer these things?

Much better luck next times!
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2/5/2013 6:08:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/4/2013 10:47:53 AM, Fouler4990 wrote:
Here, by profit I mean material ad/or physical and/or emotional profit.

The fundamental motivation of ALL believers is one of personal selfish GREED for Story book promises of divine reward!

This fact is easily proven!
Fouler4990
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2/5/2013 7:03:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2013 6:08:26 AM, Composer wrote:
At 2/4/2013 10:47:53 AM, Fouler4990 wrote:
Here, by profit I mean material ad/or physical and/or emotional profit.

The fundamental motivation of ALL believers is one of personal selfish GREED for Story book promises of divine reward!

This fact is easily proven!

Yes, ofcourse it's proven. In fact most people good deeds so as to got to heven or to be with god. They even question the deeds done by non-believers asking them why they do good if they don't believe in god. So, as such, most of them primarily run by the greed for heven or else find no other reason to do good then.
------------------------------------------
the well wisher of humanity
~ Fouler4990
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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2/5/2013 7:10:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/4/2013 9:50:54 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 2/4/2013 10:02:28 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/30/2013 10:26:17 AM, Warabe wrote:
At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
At 1/29/2013 10:54:04 PM, Warabe wrote:
An interesting thought dawned upon me a few days ago that deserves some discussion. It has everything to do with creation and the "Garden of Eden" scene where Eve eats the fruit of the forbidden tree, after being tempted by serpent-form Satan to eat it.

Why was Eve temptable in the first place? Why would God, knowingly, place a flaw into the nature of humanity that allows sin to take hold in us and turn us away from pursuing him out of our own free will without having to worry about the consequences of Hell?

Hello! And welcome

Do you enjoy your ability to choose?
This is a gift. So choice, is a flaw? There are no other choices that are on the opposite ends of each other. Good, bad, wrong, right etc.
This was their test, as small as it may seem, seeing thay had all the food they needed.
They had freedom to choose their way, just like Lucifer in heaven did.
God made us free moral agents, and God saw that it was very good. Not to choose wrong, but love must beget love, no force allowed. James 1:13,14, Rom 6:16, Gen 6:31
Hell is absence from God, for He is life. So if you are drawn to God, and not do fight it,which we usually struggle, thats why so many are not at peace, God will work in you, both to will and to do Phil. 2:13

Thank you for your response!

While what you're saying makes sense in a very limited scope, allow me to broaden your horizons a little.

Why does free will necessitate a choice between sin and God? Why does the dichotomy have to be bad and good, instead of a much better pair of choices: good and okay?

According to my Catholic faith, there actually is a sort of third option, but not exactly like you described. Mortal sins damn you to hell, but venial sins require you to spend time being purged in purgatory for a while before you get to heaven.

It's not smart to plan on doing venial sins, just because you think you can get away with it, though. For all I know, planning on doing venial sins to take advantage of God's mercy could very well be a mortal sin in and of itself But I'm not sure.

Mortal sin is a construct of The Catholic Church, specifically. There is no mention of mortal sin in the bible.

'If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.' - 1 John 5:16
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Composer
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2/5/2013 7:21:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2013 7:10:37 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
'If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.' - 1 John 5:16

trinitarian catholics don't consider fukking your own Mother as a sin of any kind? (cf. Luke 1:35) catholic Story book

With the moral guide of their catholic Mother Fukker jebus lower than a sewer rat, no small wonder their Cult hierarchy includes active homosexuals, paedophiles, child molesters, Nun raping priests & 100% malignant sinners, LOL!

Your vindicated mentor, 50 year successful Cult busting personal successful literal Saviour, moi!
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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2/5/2013 7:27:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2013 7:21:29 AM, Composer wrote:
At 2/5/2013 7:10:37 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
'If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.' - 1 John 5:16

trinitarian catholics don't consider fukking your own Mother as a sin of any kind? (cf. Luke 1:35) catholic Story book

I believe they do.

With the moral guide of their catholic Mother Fukker jebus lower than a sewer rat, no small wonder their Cult hierarchy includes active homosexuals, paedophiles, child molesters, Nun raping priests & 100% malignant sinners, LOL!

If you're talking about the heretical Romish branch, then continue.

If you're talking about the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, I'm going to have to ask you for some proof.

Your vindicated mentor, 50 year successful Cult busting personal successful literal Saviour, moi!
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
NorthernArk
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2/5/2013 12:51:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
God didn't create temptation. God created free will and choice. Temptation to cheat, lie, kill or destroy are from the devil. Simple as that.
Paradox_7
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2/5/2013 1:31:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/29/2013 10:54:04 PM, Warabe wrote:
An interesting thought dawned upon me a few days ago that deserves some discussion. It has everything to do with creation and the "Garden of Eden" scene where Eve eats the fruit of the forbidden tree, after being tempted by serpent-form Satan to eat it.

Why was Eve temptable in the first place? Why would God, knowingly, place a flaw into the nature of humanity that allows sin to take hold in us and turn us away from pursuing him out of our own free will without having to worry about the consequences of Hell?


First of all, Adams rebellion began before eating the fruit. Mainly, by not driving the serpet out from the get go. It doesn't say much about this, but, I'm of the opinion that this serpent was working on adam and eve long before the tree incident.

So, Adams failure to evict the serpent resulted in his ultimate fall.

God didn't place a flaw in us, he gave them the right to choose on their own, which clearly established the nature of man when God is not present. If God doesn't actually keep one from being totally evil, then they will be evil. The absence of light, is darkness.

Matter of fact, Adam did what you are donig now. The first thing he says when confronted by God, is "the woman YOU put here with me gave it to me...", then Eve direct the blame with the classic "the devil made me do it"...

The truth is, God let them make a choice, knowing what they would do of course, and used mans choice to still work things out for good. Unfortunately, adam did away with 'free-will', if it could even be called that.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Fouler4990
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2/5/2013 9:42:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2013 12:51:52 PM, NorthernArk wrote:
God didn't create temptation. God created free will and choice. Temptation to cheat, lie, kill or destroy are from the devil. Simple as that.

So, the devil also took part in the creation of god? I know that the temptations was given by the devil through the snake, but why did god have to make them so naive for the devil to easily cheat them. Along with free will if god had given them some knowledge it would have been better, isn't it?
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the well wisher of humanity
~ Fouler4990
Suqua
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2/6/2013 1:57:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2013 6:04:00 AM, Composer wrote:
At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
Do you enjoy your ability to choose?
This is a gift. So choice, is a flaw? There are no other choices that are on the opposite ends of each other. Good, bad, wrong, right etc.
This was their test, as small as it may seem, seeing thay had all the food they needed.

IF those claiming to be xtians claim they have a Free-Will choice, then why do they ALL (including YOU) freely choose to remain a malignant sinner?j

So says you!

At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
They had freedom to choose their way,


Incorrect!
To you!

Freedom/Free-Will to choose is just that! Freedom to choose, without threats or coersion!

Noun: free will
The power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies.

Adjective: Done of your own accord. (Wordweb)

Conversely however there was NO Freedom/Free-Will to choose, because the threat of consequences of death for choosing ' to partake ' loomed over at least Adam! (Gen. 2:17) KJV Story book

Not a threat, a fact.

At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
just like Lucifer in heaven did.

Step 1: You make so many fundamental blunders, let's now examine your alleged Story book evidence that a ' naughty spirit angel being called Lucifer ' was present in Story book heaven only later to be expelled with its pals?

At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
God made us free moral agents,

Apart from a 100% human concocted Story book let me now examine your evidence that a) ANY literal Supernatural god(s) exist?

b) That ANY were involved in allocating us as ' free moral agents? '. Evidence & examples please?

At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
and God saw that it was very good.

Hmm!

Why do you say Story book god thought your naughty Satan was ' very good? '.

Until iniquity was found in thee. That was after Adam and Eve. Next!

At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
Not to choose wrong, but love must beget love, no force allowed. James 1:13,14, Rom 6:16, Gen 6:31

Then explain the contradiction? -


But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me."" (Luke 19:27) English Standard Version/ESV Story book

Parable of the ten coins.

At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
Hell is absence from God,

BS according to your Story book! -

. . . . : if I make my bed in hell , behold, thou [art there]. (Psalm 139:8) KJV Story book

The grave.

At 1/30/2013 12:17:32 AM, Suqua wrote:
for He is life.

Apart from your preferred Story book let's see what actual evidence you have that -

ANY literal Supernatural god/power literally exists?

I'll get back to you on that! So, while we're waiting on me. Show everybody your actual evidence that God does not exist.

That ANY such god/power is literally masculine gender (he)?

You may wish to start a separate Thread to answer these things?

Much better luck next times!
Thank you!
You don't want answers! You are not open to answers. Your choice, is to have an open forum, like this, to vent your feelings. As you have choosen to do. So let it be writen as you have done, for your works do follow you.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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2/6/2013 1:59:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/6/2013 1:57:53 AM, Suqua wrote:
You don't want answers! You are not open to answers. Your choice, is to have an open forum, like this, to vent your feelings. As you have choosen to do. So let it be writen as you have done, for your works do follow you.

You don't want to deal with him. He's a pretty blatant troll.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
TheAntidoter
Posts: 4,323
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2/6/2013 7:43:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2013 7:03:00 AM, Fouler4990 wrote:
At 2/5/2013 6:08:26 AM, Composer wrote:
At 2/4/2013 10:47:53 AM, Fouler4990 wrote:
Here, by profit I mean material ad/or physical and/or emotional profit.

The fundamental motivation of ALL believers is one of personal selfish GREED for Story book promises of divine reward!

This fact is easily proven!

Yes, ofcourse it's proven. In fact most people good deeds so as to got to heaven or to be with god.

Ephesians 2:8-9

New International Version (NIV)

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Next.

They even question the deeds done by non-believers asking them why they do good if they don't believe in god.

And you don't have anyway to back this up because?

So, as such, most of them primarily run by the greed for heaven or else find no other reason to do good then.

And you guys still have not proved it.

Try again.
Affinity: Fire
Class: Human
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Nac.

WOAH, COLORED FONT!
Fouler4990
Posts: 33
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2/6/2013 9:36:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/6/2013 7:43:40 AM, TheAntidoter wrote:
At 2/5/2013 7:03:00 AM, Fouler4990 wrote:

Yes, ofcourse it's proven. In fact most people good deeds so as to got to heaven or to be with god.

Ephesians 2:8-9

New International Version (NIV)

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Next.

Ok, so, they don't go to heven by doing good deeds but only by having faith in god? But they go to hell for doing bad deed? Or am I wrong there too? If so, is it because they just faith in god? Please tell me, I don't know much about all those stuff.

They even question the deeds done by non-believers asking them why they do good if they don't believe in god.

And you don't have anyway to back this up because?

I thought the reader will understand it easily. Well, I guess I was wrong. Let me tell you in a step by step method then...
Imagine yourself to be a non-believer. Now ask yourself - 'why should I do good deeds?' If you know 'humanity' in true words, you'll get your answers.

So, as such, most of them primarily run by the greed for heaven or else find no other reason to do good then.

And you guys still have not proved it.

Try again.

Do you have a problem with the word 'most of them'? Should I change that to 'some of them'? Ok. Here you go:
'So, as such, some of them primarily run by the greed for heaven or else find no other reason to do good then.'
------------------------------------------
the well wisher of humanity
~ Fouler4990
Composer
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2/6/2013 10:31:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2013 7:27:25 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/5/2013 7:21:29 AM, Composer wrote:
At 2/5/2013 7:10:37 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
'If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.' - 1 John 5:16

trinitarian catholics don't consider fukking your own Mother as a sin of any kind? (cf. Luke 1:35) catholic Story book

I believe they do.

With the moral guide of their catholic Mother Fukker jebus lower than a sewer rat, no small wonder their Cult hierarchy includes active homosexuals, paedophiles, child molesters, Nun raping priests & 100% malignant sinners, LOL!

At 2/5/2013 7:27:25 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
If you're talking about the heretical Romish branch, then continue.

Nah! Not yet!

Conversely I'm definitely talking about your disgusting Cult and here's some of the facts -

At 2/5/2013 7:27:25 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
If you're talking about the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, I'm going to have to ask you for some proof.

No problem for moi: e.g. - Mark Dowd, a former Dominican friar and a gay male, commented on a 2001-APR TV documentary "Queer and Catholic" that the priesthood is becoming a "gay profession" like hairdressing.

(Source: http://www.religioustolerance.org...)

&

It's not just little kids who are endangered by Catholic priests -- Catholic nuns also have reason to fear. The Vatican has finally admitted that nuns all around the world have been sexually abused and even raped by priests. Africa has had the most problems, but many other countries have been involved as well, including India, Ireland, Italy, the Philippines and the United States.

Confidential Vatican reports obtained by the National Catholic Reporter, a weekly magazine in the US, have revealed that members of the Catholic clergy have been exploiting their financial and spiritual authority to gain sexual favours from nuns, particularly those from the Third World who are more likely to be culturally conditioned to be subservient to men.

The reports, some of which are recent and some of which have been in circulation for at least seven years, said that such priests had demanded sex in exchange for favours, such as certification to work in a given diocese.

In extreme instances, the priests had made nuns pregnant and then encouraged them to have abortions. (Source: http://atheism.about.com...)

&

History shows - The public statistics of the European, as well of American nations, show that there is among Roman Catholics nearly double the amount of prostitution, bastardy, theft, perjury, and murder than is found among Protestant nations. Where must we, then, look for the cause of those stupendous facts, if not in the corrupt teachings of the theology of Rome. How can the Roman Catholic nations hope to raise themselves in the scale of Christian dignity and morality as long as there remain one hundred thousand priests in their midst, bound in conscience every day to pollute the minds and the hearts of their mothers, their wives and their daughters! (Chapter 15, 50 years in the Church of Rome by Charles Chiniquay)

&

More Recently - Police slam Catholic Church over abuse

http://www.news.com.au...

&

A former priest in Australia has come forward with information about a "system of cover-ups" within the Catholic Church to hide the sexual abuse of children.

Former priest Kevin Lee appeared on the Australian news program Lateline on Friday, November 9. On the program, Lee said he "saw a system of cover-ups, a system of blind-eye turning and just ignorance of the fact that it (the sexual abuse of children) was happening."

Lee said:

"I became aware that some of the other priests were actually paedophiles and were not necessarily becoming priests because they wanted to help people, but because they were paedophiles who wanted the opportunity."

On Thursday, Detective Chief Inspector Peter Fox told Lateline that the Catholic Church in Australia is involved in cover-ups and pedophile priests have destroyed evidence to avoid prosecution. Fox claims that his investigations into the sexual abuse of children by clergy had been hampered by interference from within the police force and by the Catholic Church.

In response to the recent allegations concerning the rape and sexual abuse of children by Catholic clergy, and the cover-up of those crimes, on Saturday, November 10, New South Wales Premier Barry O'Farrell ordered a special commission of inquiry into claims of a police cover-up of church sex abuse.

(Source: http://www.examiner.com...)

Your vindicated mentor, 50 year successful Cult busting personal successful literal Saviour, moi!