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Do Animals Suffer Like Humans?

Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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1/31/2013 8:51:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The philosophical claim made by Dr. Craig, which is backed up by scientific evidence that Dr. Murray speaks on, is that since animals lack the mental states and capacities that humans do, then we don't know if an animal's behavior is enough to warrant belief in their experiencing pain as we do because their physical brain conditions aren't the same as developed humans, and developed humans experience pain in a certain way where it's reasonable to say one is being wronged. However, we're at best ignorant on when it comes to non-developed-human agents.

No one is arguing that animals don't suffer or feel pain.

Rather the question is open as to whether we can know if animals experience pain like humans to, to where there is a victim.

And here Craig respondes to the video above,

http://www.reasonablefaith.org...
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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1/31/2013 9:01:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If they have a central nervous system, then yes animals feel pain. Whether that pain is different than human pain, is superfluous conjecture. I feel it is perhaps a question contrived to justify some ideological position.
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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1/31/2013 9:02:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't believe that animals feel pain. I see no practical reason for them too.
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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1/31/2013 9:04:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2013 9:02:39 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
I don't believe that animals feel pain. I see no practical reason for them too.

Again, it's not that they feel pain, but rather that they experience it like we do.
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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1/31/2013 9:09:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2013 9:02:39 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
I don't believe that animals feel pain. I see no practical reason for them too.

For the same reason humans experience it. Pain is a mental response to bodily injury, that encourages response and injury mitigation.
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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1/31/2013 9:15:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2013 9:13:07 PM, Apeiron wrote:
All, regard that No one is arguing that animals don't suffer or feel pain.

I am.
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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1/31/2013 9:20:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2013 9:09:15 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:02:39 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
I don't believe that animals feel pain. I see no practical reason for them too.

For the same reason humans experience it. Pain is a mental response to bodily injury, that encourages response and injury mitigation.

Conscious experience of pain is not necessary for injury mitigation. Would you argue that a rock experiences pain because it is observed bouncing away when struck by a hammer?
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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1/31/2013 9:21:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2013 9:15:44 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:13:07 PM, Apeiron wrote:
All, regard that No one is arguing that animals don't suffer or feel pain.

I am.

Well then that would take this thread off on a rabbit trail. Did you watch the video and the mp3?
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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1/31/2013 9:22:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2013 9:21:21 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:15:44 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:13:07 PM, Apeiron wrote:
All, regard that No one is arguing that animals don't suffer or feel pain.

I am.

Well then that would take this thread off on a rabbit trail. Did you watch the video and the mp3?

No. I'm a lazy mother f*cker.
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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1/31/2013 9:27:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2013 9:22:25 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:21:21 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:15:44 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:13:07 PM, Apeiron wrote:
All, regard that No one is arguing that animals don't suffer or feel pain.

I am.

Well then that would take this thread off on a rabbit trail. Did you watch the video and the mp3?

No. I'm a lazy mother f*cker.

agh
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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1/31/2013 9:32:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't understand the distinction between second-order and third-order pain here. What does it mean to say that an animal experiences pain but doesn't know that they're experiencing it?
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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1/31/2013 9:35:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2013 9:20:42 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:09:15 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:02:39 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
I don't believe that animals feel pain. I see no practical reason for them too.

For the same reason humans experience it. Pain is a mental response to bodily injury, that encourages response and injury mitigation.

Conscious experience of pain is not necessary for injury mitigation. Would you argue that a rock experiences pain because it is observed bouncing away when struck by a hammer?

Would you argue that a rock bouncing is an attempt at "Injury mitigation"?
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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1/31/2013 9:40:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2013 9:01:42 PM, Polaris wrote:
If they have a central nervous system, then yes animals feel pain. Whether that pain is different than human pain, is superfluous conjecture. I feel it is perhaps a question contrived to justify some ideological position.
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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1/31/2013 9:47:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2013 9:35:09 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:20:42 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:09:15 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:02:39 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
I don't believe that animals feel pain. I see no practical reason for them too.

For the same reason humans experience it. Pain is a mental response to bodily injury, that encourages response and injury mitigation.

Conscious experience of pain is not necessary for injury mitigation. Would you argue that a rock experiences pain because it is observed bouncing away when struck by a hammer?

Would you argue that a rock bouncing is an attempt at "Injury mitigation"?

I would if I was using your logic.
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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1/31/2013 10:04:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2013 9:47:21 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:35:09 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:20:42 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:09:15 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:02:39 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
I don't believe that animals feel pain. I see no practical reason for them too.

For the same reason humans experience it. Pain is a mental response to bodily injury, that encourages response and injury mitigation.

Conscious experience of pain is not necessary for injury mitigation. Would you argue that a rock experiences pain because it is observed bouncing away when struck by a hammer?

Would you argue that a rock bouncing is an attempt at "Injury mitigation"?

I would if I was using your logic.

That's curious. Injury mitigation implies effort, at least in the context in which I was using it, and yet a rock is entirely inanimate and incapable of suffering injury or exerting effort. I believe this is what we may refer to as a "False Analogy".
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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1/31/2013 10:10:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2013 10:04:06 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:47:21 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:35:09 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:20:42 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:09:15 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:02:39 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
I don't believe that animals feel pain. I see no practical reason for them too.

For the same reason humans experience it. Pain is a mental response to bodily injury, that encourages response and injury mitigation.

Conscious experience of pain is not necessary for injury mitigation. Would you argue that a rock experiences pain because it is observed bouncing away when struck by a hammer?

Would you argue that a rock bouncing is an attempt at "Injury mitigation"?

I would if I was using your logic.

That's curious. Injury mitigation implies effort, at least in the context in which I was using it, and yet a rock is entirely inanimate and incapable of suffering injury or exerting effort. I believe this is what we may refer to as a "False Analogy".

It's not a false analogy. You are making the assumption that rocks are incapable of suffering injury. I can disprove this easily by throwing a rock forcefully on my driveway.
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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1/31/2013 10:33:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2013 10:10:35 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/31/2013 10:04:06 PM, Polaris wrote:
That's curious. Injury mitigation implies effort, at least in the context in which I was using it, and yet a rock is entirely inanimate and incapable of suffering injury or exerting effort. I believe this is what we may refer to as a "False Analogy".

It's not a false analogy. You are making the assumption that rocks are incapable of suffering injury. I can disprove this easily by throwing a rock forcefully on my driveway.

Are you sure you want to commit to this specious argument?
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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1/31/2013 10:36:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2013 10:33:10 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 1/31/2013 10:10:35 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/31/2013 10:04:06 PM, Polaris wrote:
That's curious. Injury mitigation implies effort, at least in the context in which I was using it, and yet a rock is entirely inanimate and incapable of suffering injury or exerting effort. I believe this is what we may refer to as a "False Analogy".

It's not a false analogy. You are making the assumption that rocks are incapable of suffering injury. I can disprove this easily by throwing a rock forcefully on my driveway.

Are you sure you want to commit to this specious argument?

No. But surely you get my point: just because something appears to avoid pain, doesn't mean it consciously experiences it. Some plants seem to avoid pain; are they conscious?
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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1/31/2013 10:50:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2013 10:36:02 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
just because something appears to avoid pain, doesn't mean it consciously experiences it.

I never argued as such. You stated that there was no practical need for animals to feel pain, I pointed out at least one practical use: Injury mitigation. Then you proceeded to argue about rocks.
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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1/31/2013 10:52:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2013 10:50:50 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 1/31/2013 10:36:02 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
just because something appears to avoid pain, doesn't mean it consciously experiences it.

I never argued as such. You stated that there was no practical need for animals to feel pain, I pointed out at least one practical use: Injury mitigation. Then you proceeded to argue about rocks.

Oh, aha. I was arguing practicality from what I think is a Catholic world view.
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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1/31/2013 10:53:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2013 10:52:50 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/31/2013 10:50:50 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 1/31/2013 10:36:02 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
just because something appears to avoid pain, doesn't mean it consciously experiences it.

I never argued as such. You stated that there was no practical need for animals to feel pain, I pointed out at least one practical use: Injury mitigation. Then you proceeded to argue about rocks.

Oh, aha. I was arguing practicality from what I think is a Catholic world view.

Scratch that, I don't wanna be called a heretic!
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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1/31/2013 11:00:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2013 9:40:00 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:01:42 PM, Polaris wrote:
If they have a central nervous system, then yes animals feel pain. Whether that pain is different than human pain, is superfluous conjecture. I feel it is perhaps a question contrived to justify some ideological position.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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1/31/2013 11:17:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2013 10:53:30 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/31/2013 10:52:50 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
Oh, aha. I was arguing practicality from what I think is a Catholic world view.

Scratch that, I don't wanna be called a heretic!

"Heresy is what the minority believe, it is the real name given by the powerful to the doctrine of the weak" ~ Robert Green Ingersoll
unitedandy
Posts: 1,173
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2/1/2013 6:54:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Full disclosure - I haven't listened to Craig's response yet. I think one of the other comments nailed it - it's a position (like sceptical theism) contrived wholly for the purposes of avoiding the problem of evil. No-one would believe this stuff in any other context. The only thing I'd say in defence of theism is many find this stuff as perplexing as we do.

Also, as I've pointed out before the question you're asking Apeiron is the wrong question. Let's say animals don't suffer as much as humans. So what? If they suffer at all, all Murray does (at best) is lessen the extent of animal suffering. Moreover, there is good reason to think (in some respects) they suffer more. There's an article by Dawkins (funnily enough) which makes this point.

Lastly, whenever Craig makes this point, he never even attempts to justify Murray's dualism, which is predicated on basic misreadings of science anyway.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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2/1/2013 7:06:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2013 9:02:39 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
I don't believe that animals feel pain. I see no practical reason for them too.

Clearly you don't own any pets. Try kicking a dog and see whether you can maintain your position in the face of the yelp of pain and look of guilt and betrayal.
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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2/1/2013 7:31:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2013 11:00:02 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:40:00 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 1/31/2013 9:01:42 PM, Polaris wrote:
If they have a central nervous system, then yes animals feel pain. Whether that pain is different than human pain, is superfluous conjecture. I feel it is perhaps a question contrived to justify some ideological position.

Yeah, atheism from the PoE.
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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2/1/2013 7:37:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/1/2013 6:54:18 AM, unitedandy wrote:
Full disclosure - I haven't listened to Craig's response yet. I think one of the other comments nailed it - it's a position (like sceptical theism) contrived wholly for the purposes of avoiding the problem of evil.

Or of course presenting it.

No-one would believe this stuff in any other context. The only thing I'd say in defence of theism is many find this stuff as perplexing as we do.

Believe what stuff? And the context in which it's always been discussed is the mind-body problem, not the PoE. But when someone, say UA, wants to bring up the supposed problem of animal pain, he's to give us a reason for why we should think that animals feel pain like we do given the fact of our ignorance regarding the matter. It's at best an argument from ignorance.

Also, as I've pointed out before the question you're asking Apeiron is the wrong question. Let's say animals don't suffer as much as humans. So what? If they suffer at all, all Murray does (at best) is lessen the extent of animal suffering. Moreover, there is good reason to think (in some respects) they suffer more. There's an article by Dawkins (funnily enough) which makes this point.

Again, the question isn't that they suffer or how much, but rather if they experience suffering in a higher order awareness like we do, for which there can be a victim, a self. And so quite trying to shift the goal posts.

Lastly, whenever Craig makes this point, he never even attempts to justify Murray's dualism, which is predicated on basic misreadings of science anyway.

Or of course scientific misreadings of philosophical dualism. If science doesn't know what's it's attempting to dis-confirm in the first place, how can it logically dis-confirm it?