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Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact

GreatestIam
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2/4/2013 1:43:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?

I have always had a problem with the notion that God would have hardened Pharaoh"s soft heart and pave the way for him to kill/murder the first born of Egypt. For God to do so would have been evil indeed.

Do you think that science has explained the purported miracles as natural phenomena?

From what I can see, the Jews who wrote the story did not take it literally.

http://www.raceandhistory.com...

Should Christians recognize the O T stories as natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?

Regards
DL
Nur-Ab-Sal
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2/4/2013 1:47:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If science can explain away the Red Sea splitting in two, K.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Kinesis
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2/4/2013 1:57:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"The consensus among biblical scholars today is that there was never any exodus of the proportions described in the Bible,[15] and that the story is best seen as theology, a story illustrating how the god of Israel acted to save and strengthen his chosen people, and not as history.[13]"

http://en.wikipedia.org...
drafterman
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2/4/2013 2:04:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"I have always had a problem with the notion that God would have hardened Pharaoh"s soft heart and pave the way for him to kill/murder the first born of Egypt. For God to do so would have been evil indeed."

And why is that "a problem?" It is completely consistent with the character portrayed in the old testament. I think the concept of a trinity is an apt one, but rather than a father, son, and holy ghost, I think of a sadistic warlord (genocide, slavery of opposing nations), malicious trickster (Let's fvck with job on a bet), and abusive parent (Oh, you didn't blindly obey me? You and all of your decedents are now condemned).

Hardening the Pharaoh's hard to give him an excuse to cause 7 plagues really pales in comparison to some of the other stuff he's done.
stubs
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2/4/2013 2:16:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/4/2013 1:47:18 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
If science can explain away the Red Sea splitting in two, K.

If we're getting technical it wasn't even the Red Sea anyways
Nur-Ab-Sal
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2/4/2013 2:18:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/4/2013 2:16:44 PM, stubs wrote:
At 2/4/2013 1:47:18 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
If science can explain away the Red Sea splitting in two, K.

If we're getting technical it wasn't even the Red Sea anyways

Not surprised.

What do I know, stubs? I know nothing.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
GreatestIam
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2/5/2013 1:36:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/4/2013 1:47:18 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
If science can explain away the Red Sea splitting in two, K.

I think it has in that documentary.
The Reed sea

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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2/5/2013 1:40:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/4/2013 2:04:14 PM, drafterman wrote:
"I have always had a problem with the notion that God would have hardened Pharaoh"s soft heart and pave the way for him to kill/murder the first born of Egypt. For God to do so would have been evil indeed."

And why is that "a problem?" It is completely consistent with the character portrayed in the old testament. I think the concept of a trinity is an apt one, but rather than a father, son, and holy ghost, I think of a sadistic warlord (genocide, slavery of opposing nations), malicious trickster (Let's fvck with job on a bet), and abusive parent (Oh, you didn't blindly obey me? You and all of your decedents are now condemned).

Hardening the Pharaoh's hard to give him an excuse to cause 7 plagues really pales in comparison to some of the other stuff he's done.

I have no argument against this true view.

Regards
DL
Magic8000
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2/5/2013 3:52:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Most likely just a fictional a story. No archaeological evidence has been found that proves it was a real event, nor did Egyptians document anything about the Nile turning into blood, every firstborn child dying, and all the other plagues
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

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annanicole
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2/6/2013 9:17:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/4/2013 1:57:57 PM, Kinesis wrote:
"The consensus among biblical scholars today is that there was never any exodus of the proportions described in the Bible,[15] and that the story is best seen as theology, a story illustrating how the god of Israel acted to save and strengthen his chosen people, and not as history.[13]"

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Then the cited "Biblical scholars" are but smatterers whose goal is to subtlely chip away at the credibility of the Bible. There is no such "consensus" among Biblical scholars, anyway - unless the descriptor "Biblical scholar" is a very broad term.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
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2/6/2013 9:21:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
.... and God hardened Pharoah's heart - indirectly: the bottom line is that Pharoah hardened his own heart.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bladerunner060
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2/6/2013 9:52:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/6/2013 9:21:04 AM, annanicole wrote:
.... and God hardened Pharoah's heart - indirectly: the bottom line is that Pharoah hardened his own heart.

That is ridiculous. You don't say "X did Y to Z", and then say "Well, that means Z did Y to himself".
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Kinesis
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2/6/2013 10:01:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/6/2013 9:17:30 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/4/2013 1:57:57 PM, Kinesis wrote:
"The consensus among biblical scholars today is that there was never any exodus of the proportions described in the Bible,[15] and that the story is best seen as theology, a story illustrating how the god of Israel acted to save and strengthen his chosen people, and not as history.[13]"

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Then the cited "Biblical scholars" are but smatterers whose goal is to subtlely chip away at the credibility of the Bible. There is no such "consensus" among Biblical scholars, anyway - unless the descriptor "Biblical scholar" is a very broad term.

You know, the article goes on to explain in pretty explicit detail why biblical scholars know that the exodus almost certainly did not take place. It's a pretty good read.
drafterman
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2/6/2013 10:31:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/6/2013 9:17:30 AM, annanicole wrote:

Then the cited "Ancient Greek scholars" are but smatterers whose goal is to subtlely chip away at the credibility of the Illiad. There is no such "consensus" among Ancient Greek scholars, anyway - unless the descriptor "Ancient Greek scholar" is a very broad term.
GreatestIam
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2/6/2013 10:53:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2013 3:52:45 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
Most likely just a fictional a story. No archaeological evidence has been found that proves it was a real event, nor did Egyptians document anything about the Nile turning into blood, every firstborn child dying, and all the other plagues

I agree but not completely.

I see it as a myth of the Hyksos expulsion re-written for Semitic pride stroking.

That system of topological writing was common in those days.

The N T may have been written the same way thanks to the War of the Jews book and Rome"s deep purse.

Further. The Egyptians may have recorded some of the events mimicked in the Exodus. See that clip at the 1.05 mark.

Regards
DL
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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2/6/2013 11:19:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/6/2013 9:52:17 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/6/2013 9:21:04 AM, annanicole wrote:
.... and God hardened Pharoah's heart - indirectly: the bottom line is that Pharoah hardened his own heart.

That is ridiculous. You don't say "X did Y to Z", and then say "Well, that means Z did Y to himself".

'But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart, and would not listen to them; as the Lord had said.' - Exodus 8:15

'But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and did not let the people go.' - Exodus 8:32

'But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.' - Exodus 9:34
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Wnope
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2/6/2013 11:21:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't see how relevant that is.

Even if waters parting was naturalistic, statistically how likely was it that the entire Jewish population if Israel would be around at just the right time?

It's a bit like saying a car is run by invisible gremlins, but there is a naturalistic explanation for why the wheels turn in circles.
bladerunner060
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2/6/2013 6:30:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/6/2013 11:19:57 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/6/2013 9:52:17 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/6/2013 9:21:04 AM, annanicole wrote:
.... and God hardened Pharoah's heart - indirectly: the bottom line is that Pharoah hardened his own heart.

That is ridiculous. You don't say "X did Y to Z", and then say "Well, that means Z did Y to himself".

'But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart, and would not listen to them; as the Lord had said.' - Exodus 8:15

'But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and did not let the people go.' - Exodus 8:32

'But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.' - Exodus 9:34

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses ---- Exodus 9:12
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annanicole
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2/6/2013 7:34:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/6/2013 9:52:17 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/6/2013 9:21:04 AM, annanicole wrote:
.... and God hardened Pharoah's heart - indirectly: the bottom line is that Pharoah hardened his own heart.

That is ridiculous. You don't say "X did Y to Z", and then say "Well, that means Z did Y to himself".

Don't take it up with me. The Bible explicitly says God hardened Pharoah's heart, but it doesn't say HOW. The same Bible explicitly says Pharoah hardened his own heart. God hardened Pharoah's heart by employing means: the plagues indirectly hardened Pharoah's heart. But Pharoah, in his response, took the initiative and hardened his own heart.

"Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?" (I Sam 6: 6)

"But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said." (Exo 8: 15)

"And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go." (Exo 8: 32)

Explicitly, Pharoah hardened his own heart - multiple times. To think that God reached down and literally hardened Pharoah's heart is a little silly when the Bible states on multiple occasions that, yes, Pharaoh did it. It is safe and correct to say that God did it as well, but God did it through means.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bladerunner060
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2/6/2013 7:41:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/6/2013 7:34:38 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/6/2013 9:52:17 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/6/2013 9:21:04 AM, annanicole wrote:
.... and God hardened Pharoah's heart - indirectly: the bottom line is that Pharoah hardened his own heart.

That is ridiculous. You don't say "X did Y to Z", and then say "Well, that means Z did Y to himself".

Don't take it up with me. The Bible explicitly says God hardened Pharoah's heart, but it doesn't say HOW. The same Bible explicitly says Pharoah hardened his own heart. God hardened Pharoah's heart by employing means: the plagues indirectly hardened Pharoah's heart. But Pharoah, in his response, took the initiative and hardened his own heart.

"Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?" (I Sam 6: 6)

"But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said." (Exo 8: 15)

"And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go." (Exo 8: 32)

Explicitly, Pharoah hardened his own heart - multiple times. To think that God reached down and literally hardened Pharoah's heart is a little silly when the Bible states on multiple occasions that, yes, Pharaoh did it. It is safe and correct to say that God did it as well, but God did it through means.

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses ---- Exodus 9:12

Obviously you didn't read the other poster's same bible quotes. Or my reply to them, where I show that the bible says that God explicitly hardened Pharaoh's heart.

God made the choice to harden Pharaoh's heart, and then punished him for that hardening; whether Pharaoh would have hardened his heart anyway is immaterial, since he never got the chance to make the choice.

You choose to twist the words to avoid recognizing that that's what it says. That's your right, but all your handwaving doesn't change what the words say.

The biblical God may not be at fault for every occasion of this heart-hardening, but he removed Pharaoh's choice at least once, and is at fault for one at least, and yet he punished Pharaoh for it.

Granted, the events in Exodus likely never even happened, but that's neither here nor there. You claimed "the bottom line is that Pharoah hardened his own heart", and I pointed out that that is not true, based on the text you use.
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annanicole
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2/6/2013 7:42:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/6/2013 6:30:58 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/6/2013 11:19:57 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/6/2013 9:52:17 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/6/2013 9:21:04 AM, annanicole wrote:
.... and God hardened Pharoah's heart - indirectly: the bottom line is that Pharoah hardened his own heart.

That is ridiculous. You don't say "X did Y to Z", and then say "Well, that means Z did Y to himself".

'But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart, and would not listen to them; as the Lord had said.' - Exodus 8:15

'But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and did not let the people go.' - Exodus 8:32

'But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.' - Exodus 9:34

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses ---- Exodus 9:12

I saw it. And I've also seen the multiplicity of verses that say that pharaoh hardened his own heart.

Did God harden Pharoah's heart? Yes, absolutely - by employing means
Did Pharoah harden his own heart? Yes, absolutely - of his own choice when responding to the plagues.

Land's sakes, it's not that difficult. "And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants." (Exodus 9: 34). I'm amazed at the otherwise-logical people who, in the case of Pharoah, abandon all reason and assert that God did a divine heart surgery, directly, and literally hardened Pharoah's heart - then punished him for it. That's not so: God punished Pharoah, his officials, and the Egyptian people because they hardened their own hearts and thus became arrogant and stubborn and even deceptive.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bladerunner060
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2/6/2013 7:59:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/6/2013 7:42:07 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/6/2013 6:30:58 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/6/2013 11:19:57 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/6/2013 9:52:17 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/6/2013 9:21:04 AM, annanicole wrote:
.... and God hardened Pharoah's heart - indirectly: the bottom line is that Pharoah hardened his own heart.

That is ridiculous. You don't say "X did Y to Z", and then say "Well, that means Z did Y to himself".

'But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart, and would not listen to them; as the Lord had said.' - Exodus 8:15

'But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and did not let the people go.' - Exodus 8:32

'But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.' - Exodus 9:34

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses ---- Exodus 9:12

I saw it. And I've also seen the multiplicity of verses that say that pharaoh hardened his own heart.

Did God harden Pharoah's heart? Yes, absolutely - by employing means
Did Pharoah harden his own heart? Yes, absolutely - of his own choice when responding to the plagues.

Land's sakes, it's not that difficult. "And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants." (Exodus 9: 34). I'm amazed at the otherwise-logical people who, in the case of Pharoah, abandon all reason and assert that God did a divine heart surgery, directly, and literally hardened Pharoah's heart - then punished him for it. That's not so: God punished Pharoah, his officials, and the Egyptian people because they hardened their own hearts and thus became arrogant and stubborn and even deceptive.

Land's sakes, it's not that difficult. Each of the verses you quote is after a different event.

And I am amazed at the people who, when the text clearly says "God did X", assert that it was not God who did X.

Here is Chapter 9, in its entirety, copied and pasted from "biblegateway", with emphasis to show where the passages that talk about who did what are in context.

Exodus 9
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Fifth Plague: Livestock Diseased

6 So the Lord did this thing on the next day, and all the livestock of Egypt died; but of the livestock of the children of Israel, not one died. 7 Then Pharaoh sent, and indeed, not even one of the livestock of the Israelites was dead. But the heart of Pharaoh became hard, and he did not let the people go.(Non-specified blame)

The Sixth Plague: Boils

8 So the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "Take for yourselves handfuls of ashes from a furnace, and let Moses scatter it toward the heavens in the sight of Pharaoh. 9 And it will become fine dust in all the land of Egypt, and it will cause boils that break out in sores on man and beast throughout all the land of Egypt." 10 Then they took ashes from the furnace and stood before Pharaoh, and Moses scattered them toward heaven. And they caused boils that break out in sores on man and beast. 11 And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils, for the boils were on the magicians and on all the Egyptians. 12 But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses. (God did it)

The Seventh Plague: Hail

13 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Rise early in the morning and stand before Pharaoh, and say to him, "Thus says the Lord God of the Hebrews: "Let My people go, that they may serve Me, 14 for at this time I will send all My plagues to your very heart, and on your servants and on your people, that you may know that there is none like Me in all the earth. 15 Now if I had stretched out My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, then you would have been cut off from the earth. 16 But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth. 17 As yet you exalt yourself against My people in that you will not let them go. 18 Behold, tomorrow about this time I will cause very heavy hail to rain down, such as has not been in Egypt since its founding until now. 19 Therefore send now and gather your livestock and all that you have in the field, for the hail shall come down on every man and every animal which is found in the field and is not brought home; and they shall die."""

20 He who feared the word of the Lord among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his livestock flee to the houses. 21 But he who did not regard the word of the Lord left his servants and his livestock in the field.

22 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward heaven, that there may be hail in all the land of Egypt"on man, on beast, and on every herb of the field, throughout the land of Egypt." 23 And Moses stretched out his rod toward heaven; and the Lord sent thunder and hail, and fire darted to the ground. And the Lord rained hail on the land of Egypt. 24 So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, so very heavy that there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation. 25 And the hail struck throughout the whole land of Egypt, all that was in the field, both man and beast; and the hail struck every herb of the field and broke every tree of the field. 26 Only in the land of Goshen, where the children of Israel were, there was no hail.

27 And Pharaoh sent and called for Moses and Aaron, and said to them, "I have sinned this time. The Lord is righteous, and my people and I are wicked. 28 Entreat the Lord, that there may be no more mighty thundering and hail, for it is enough. I will let you go, and you shall stay no longer."

29 So Moses said to him, "As soon as I have gone out of the city, I will spread out my hands to the Lord; the thunder will cease, and there will be no more hail, that you may know that the earth is the Lord"s. 30 But as for you and your servants, I know that you will not yet fear the Lord God."

31 Now the flax and the barley were struck, for the barley was in the head and the flax was in bud. 32 But the wheat and the spelt were not struck, for they are late crops.

33 So Moses went out of the city from Pharaoh and spread out his hands to the Lord; then the thunder and the hail ceased, and the rain was not poured on the earth. 34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants. 35 So the heart of Pharaoh was hard; neither would he let the children of Israel go, as the Lord had spoken by Moses.

(Blame laid on Pharaoh)

When you cherry-pick, you make baby jesus cry.
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bladerunner060
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2/6/2013 8:16:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/6/2013 8:13:18 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
Or does baby Jesus make himself cry when you cherry pick?

Hmmm....

Lol
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annanicole
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2/7/2013 12:47:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
You: "Land's sakes, it's not that difficult. Each of the verses you quote is after a different event. And I am amazed at the people who, when the text clearly says "God did X", assert that it was not God who did X."

Reply: Of course they are, since his heart became hard repeatedly. You are amazed that the Bible says "God did X" and somebody says that God could have either done it directly or through means? That's not amazing at all. If God did it directly, then - as I said - He would have had to swoop down and perform a direct change of heart on Pharoah and force him to "harden his heart". I know of but very few silly enough to entertain that position. Most would say that God hardened Pharoah's heart only through means or a vehicle by presenting a clear-cut choice to Pharoah.

The mafia offers a $1,000,000 bribe to an politician. He accepts. "The mafia caused greed in the politician's heart." True, by presenting an extraordinary and tempting choice. "The politician caused greed in his own heart." True, he looked around and saw what a million could do for him and took it. Same difference. The mafia did it. The politician did it. But the mafia did it - not directly - but through means.

You think it's "God hardened Pharoah's heart, then punished Pharoah for actions resulting from the hard heart that God directly caused in the first place"? Pffffft. Then it's "Well, yeah, Pharoah hardened his own heart a few times after other events, but wait, after an earlier one God hardened his heart direct and without medium FIRST." That nonsense won't lather - and appears to be more of an infidelic attempt to array passages or concepts against one another.

God either hardened Pharoah's heart directly or through means. The Holy Spirit either converts directly or through means. Diety always operates upon the mind of men either directly or through means; thus, the passage "God hardened Pharoah's heart" means one or the other: directly or through means. In fact, the first mention of Pharoah's heart becoming hard does not even specifiy whether by God or by Pharoah himself - and it matters not to me, but for anyone to persist in even a shallow objection and try to make a case, he'd have to assume that God did it (and not only that God did it, but God did it directly) in that instance.

Wanna know the kicker? After seeing the subject discussed over and over, I'd say 3/4th's of the folks who assume that God did it first - and did so directly ..... in truth do not believe God did anything because they do not even believe in God in the first place. Those are the ones who are simply get a kick out of trying to make it appear that God stepped in, prevented Pharoah from doing right, then punished him for doing wrong - then ramble in circles about it.

Punishment implies sin or wrong. Sin or wrong implies choice. To seek to remove choice in order to create a false moral dilemma is, to me, a little wreckless when other more plausible explanations exist.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Orpheus
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2/7/2013 9:24:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
These events happened so long ago, it's hard to say what really happened and what didn't.

I mean written records are shaky at best until the Middle Ages when they became more consistent and widespread.

How can anyone say for certain what did or didn't happen in Exodus? It was thousands of years ago. That's a long, long time...
GreatestIam
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2/7/2013 9:57:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 9:24:17 AM, Orpheus wrote:
These events happened so long ago, it's hard to say what really happened and what didn't.

I mean written records are shaky at best until the Middle Ages when they became more consistent and widespread.

How can anyone say for certain what did or didn't happen in Exodus? It was thousands of years ago. That's a long, long time...

This is true but the story still has an effect on believers.

The O T ends with a story of God using genocide on mankind.

Note how the literalists and fundamentals are sitting there rubbing their hand together in hope and prayer that God is quick to return again to kill us en masse again. I call those traitors to humanity. That belief of theirs has compromised their morality and created a group of traitors full of hate.

That is why it is to us to shut literalists and fundamentals down.

Regards
DL
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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2/7/2013 10:00:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 12:47:39 AM, annanicole wrote:
The mafia offers a $1,000,000 bribe to an politician. He accepts. "The mafia caused greed in the politician's heart." True, by presenting an extraordinary and tempting choice. "The politician caused greed in his own heart." True, he looked around and saw what a million could do for him and took it. Same difference. The mafia did it. The politician did it. But the mafia did it - not directly - but through means.

No, the mafia did not "cause greed in the politician's heart". No one would say that, and it wouldn't be true. The politician would be greedy, yes, but the mafia would not be the cause of that greed, that's just silly. They played on that greed. Further, the mafia would be to blame for knowing that they were playing on the greed of the politician which, really, doesn't absolve God for punishing Pharaoh for having a hardened heart after he did an action he knew would harden Pharaoh's heart.

I know you don't like that it says what it says, but it says it. God caused X. He may have done it "through means" in the sense that, rather than using an omnipotence to "reach in and harden" the heart of Pharaoh, he did something he knew full well could directly cause Pharaoh to harden his heart, I suppose, in the same way I could be said to make a baby cry by punching it (but cannot be said to have "caused greed" by offering a bribe); but the point is, that believers point to a book and a being who is supposed to be morally perfect, who directly causes something and then punishes the person in whom they caused it.

The reason it usually takes atheists to point that out is because believers are blinded by bias so that they refuse to admit that the words say what they mean unless it's something they already agree with.

It's similar to the "slavery" debate, where many believers find themselves unable to admit that the bible condones "real" slavery. Some believers, when presented with the facts, have the intellectual honesty to admit that the text says what it says; others will continue to try to grasp at some nonexistent straw with their fingers in their ears.
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GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
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2/7/2013 10:03:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 12:47:39 AM, annanicole wrote:


Reply: Of course they are, since his heart became hard repeatedly.

I will give you that and ignore the cause for the moment.

Many Christians claim better morals than most other religions. Turn or burn comes to mind. I would like your opinion though.

Do you think it was moral of God to kill the children for what their parents did?

I think not but am willing to hear your argument for that type of injustice somehow being just.

Regards
DL
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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2/7/2013 10:19:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/7/2013 10:00:34 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
I know you don't like that it says what it says, but it says it. God caused X. He may have done it "through means" in the sense that, rather than using an omnipotence to "reach in and harden" the heart of Pharaoh, he did something he knew full well could directly cause Pharaoh to harden his heart,

The way I see it, God doing something he knew full well could directly cause Pharaoh to harden his heart doesn't contradict the Catholic teaching of predestination. But this is as long as God 'hardened his heart' "through means" instead of literally hardening his heart, which I am sitting on the fence about.

Why doesn't someone cite a scholarly source to enforce their position? There has gotta be one out there.

At 2/7/2013 10:03:29 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 2/7/2013 12:47:39 AM, annanicole wrote:


Reply: Of course they are, since his heart became hard repeatedly.

I will give you that and ignore the cause for the moment.

Many Christians claim better morals than most other religions. Turn or burn comes to mind. I would like your opinion though.

Do you think it was moral of God to kill the children for what their parents did?

I think not but am willing to hear your argument for that type of injustice somehow being just.

Regards
DL

God killing children for what their parents did = God bringing children to eternal happiness.

Besides, God gave them life, he can take it away.
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