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Another shot at TAG

medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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2/10/2013 2:53:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The Transcendental Argument for God's existence (TAG) is an attempt to show that the only way to account for the existence of logic, is by postulating God's existence. One of TAG's biggest proponents is Matt Slick of Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (CARM). Mr. Slick argues that atheists cannot account for the existence of logical absolutes (truth statements), thus logic itself, from an atheistic worldview. Therefore, through TAG, God's existence is affirmed.

His version of TAG states that when there are only two possibilities to account for something, and one is negated, then the other option is affirmed, by default. Those two options are..."God exists"...and..."No God exists", representations of the respective worldviews.

I'm trying to shorten his argument but it goes something like this, the full argument can be found here...

http://carm.org...

Logic is a process of the mind, and is based on the laws of logic, which he calls "logical absolutes" (LA). These laws are...

The Law of Identity- Something is what it is and is not what it is not.

The Law of Non-Contradiction- Something cannot be both true and false at the same time, and in the same sense.

The Law of Excluded Middle- A statement is either true or false.

Rational discourse is not possible without these laws. These laws are absolute, transcendant, and conceptual by nature. Thoughts are a reflection of the mind, as a rational mind will produce rational thoughts, an irrational mind will produce irrational thoughts. It is then logical to conclude that these laws were authored by an absolute, transcendent mind that, by necessity, pre-existed those laws. That mind is God.

Nothing within the atheistic worldview can account for the existence of those laws, thus logic itself. Therefore, atheism is negated and theism affirmed.

Is this a solid argument?? Why or why not??
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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2/10/2013 3:00:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The laws of logic are descriptive, not prescriptive.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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2/10/2013 3:11:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Logic isn't a process of a mind, it exists independently of minds.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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2/10/2013 3:25:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
So there is some "objective" set of logical laws out there which theists can point to?

Tell me, is the following sentence "true" or "false" (recall those laws you're presupposing).

1. This sentence is false.

What's the objective answer?
Enji
Posts: 1,022
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2/10/2013 3:29:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 3:26:15 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:23:08 PM, Enji wrote:
Is Schrodinger's cat dead or alive?

Dead.

Suffocated.

Well that's depressing.

(actually, i'm not to upset - kitties make me itchy and scratchy and teary and sneezy so i don't like them too much)
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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2/10/2013 3:31:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 3:29:18 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:26:15 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:23:08 PM, Enji wrote:
Is Schrodinger's cat dead or alive?

Dead.

Suffocated.

Well that's depressing.

(actually, i'm not to upset - kitties make me itchy and scratchy and teary and sneezy so i don't like them too much)

Don't know what the heck people expect locking an animal in airtight space and wondering whether it will die due to the superposition of electron.
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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2/10/2013 3:33:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 3:31:19 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:29:18 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:26:15 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:23:08 PM, Enji wrote:
Is Schrodinger's cat dead or alive?

Dead.

Suffocated.

Well that's depressing.

(actually, i'm not to upset - kitties make me itchy and scratchy and teary and sneezy so i don't like them too much)

Don't know what the heck people expect locking an animal in airtight space and wondering whether it will die due to the superposition of electron.

Don't forget about the poison in there. That sh!t just ain't safe.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Enji
Posts: 1,022
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2/10/2013 3:35:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 3:33:23 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:31:19 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:29:18 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:26:15 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:23:08 PM, Enji wrote:
Is Schrodinger's cat dead or alive?

Dead.

Suffocated.

Well that's depressing.

(actually, i'm not to upset - kitties make me itchy and scratchy and teary and sneezy so i don't like them too much)

Don't know what the heck people expect locking an animal in airtight space and wondering whether it will die due to the superposition of electron.

Don't forget about the poison in there. That sh!t just ain't safe.

And radioactive stuff - suffocating poisoning and cancering a kitty just to prove some point :)
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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2/10/2013 3:38:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 3:35:05 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:33:23 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:31:19 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:29:18 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:26:15 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:23:08 PM, Enji wrote:
Is Schrodinger's cat dead or alive?

Dead.

Suffocated.

Well that's depressing.

(actually, i'm not to upset - kitties make me itchy and scratchy and teary and sneezy so i don't like them too much)

Don't know what the heck people expect locking an animal in airtight space and wondering whether it will die due to the superposition of electron.

Don't forget about the poison in there. That sh!t just ain't safe.

And radioactive stuff - suffocating poisoning and cancering a kitty just to prove some point :)

Where are you logical laws and medical training now Medic! This cat shall die of cancerous poising via suffocation, just so you could try to argue an unsound point!!!!!!
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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2/10/2013 3:49:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 3:33:23 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:31:19 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:29:18 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:26:15 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:23:08 PM, Enji wrote:
Is Schrodinger's cat dead or alive?

Dead.

Suffocated.

Well that's depressing.

(actually, i'm not to upset - kitties make me itchy and scratchy and teary and sneezy so i don't like them too much)

Don't know what the heck people expect locking an animal in airtight space and wondering whether it will die due to the superposition of electron.

Don't forget about the poison in there. That sh!t just ain't safe.

I mean...I was kinda referring to superposition as it relates to releasing the mechanism.

Though I would be interested in hearing how you can kill small animals by collapsing wave functions.
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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2/10/2013 3:59:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 3:49:23 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:33:23 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:31:19 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:29:18 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:26:15 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:23:08 PM, Enji wrote:
Is Schrodinger's cat dead or alive?

Dead.

Suffocated.

Well that's depressing.

(actually, i'm not to upset - kitties make me itchy and scratchy and teary and sneezy so i don't like them too much)

Don't know what the heck people expect locking an animal in airtight space and wondering whether it will die due to the superposition of electron.

Don't forget about the poison in there. That sh!t just ain't safe.

I mean...I was kinda referring to superposition as it relates to releasing the mechanism.

Though I would be interested in hearing how you can kill small animals by collapsing wave functions.

Alright, suppose the cat in of itself is a superposition of another cat. The collapse of this wave function thereby kills any extra kitty's.

Sciene mutha fucka, it works.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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2/10/2013 4:02:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 3:59:58 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:49:23 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:33:23 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:31:19 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:29:18 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:26:15 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:23:08 PM, Enji wrote:
Is Schrodinger's cat dead or alive?

Dead.

Suffocated.

Well that's depressing.

(actually, i'm not to upset - kitties make me itchy and scratchy and teary and sneezy so i don't like them too much)

Don't know what the heck people expect locking an animal in airtight space and wondering whether it will die due to the superposition of electron.

Don't forget about the poison in there. That sh!t just ain't safe.

I mean...I was kinda referring to superposition as it relates to releasing the mechanism.

Though I would be interested in hearing how you can kill small animals by collapsing wave functions.

Alright, suppose the cat in of itself is a superposition of another cat. The collapse of this wave function thereby kills any extra kitty's.

Sciene mutha fucka, it works.

There was a hard sci fi book about a race of aliens that lived in super-position, and our very witnessing of their home base leads to their destruction. As a solution, they wall up earth so we can't see outside our own galaxy.
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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2/10/2013 4:06:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 4:02:04 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:59:58 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:49:23 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:33:23 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:31:19 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:29:18 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:26:15 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:23:08 PM, Enji wrote:
Is Schrodinger's cat dead or alive?

Dead.

Suffocated.

Well that's depressing.

(actually, i'm not to upset - kitties make me itchy and scratchy and teary and sneezy so i don't like them too much)

Don't know what the heck people expect locking an animal in airtight space and wondering whether it will die due to the superposition of electron.

Don't forget about the poison in there. That sh!t just ain't safe.

I mean...I was kinda referring to superposition as it relates to releasing the mechanism.

Though I would be interested in hearing how you can kill small animals by collapsing wave functions.

Alright, suppose the cat in of itself is a superposition of another cat. The collapse of this wave function thereby kills any extra kitty's.

Sciene mutha fucka, it works.

There was a hard sci fi book about a race of aliens that lived in super-position, and our very witnessing of their home base leads to their destruction. As a solution, they wall up earth so we can't see outside our own galaxy.

I have a question on that. With superposition, how is it that we are aware of it? We can actually get a picture of a superposition wave function before it collapses, yet it collapses when we see it. So what is the difference between a camera and eyes to the wave function that allows it to make such a distinction? What is the discernible difference to a mindless energy?
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Enji
Posts: 1,022
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2/10/2013 4:14:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 4:06:50 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:02:04 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:59:58 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:49:23 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:33:23 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:31:19 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:29:18 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:26:15 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:23:08 PM, Enji wrote:
Is Schrodinger's cat dead or alive?

Dead.

Suffocated.

Well that's depressing.

(actually, i'm not to upset - kitties make me itchy and scratchy and teary and sneezy so i don't like them too much)

Don't know what the heck people expect locking an animal in airtight space and wondering whether it will die due to the superposition of electron.

Don't forget about the poison in there. That sh!t just ain't safe.

I mean...I was kinda referring to superposition as it relates to releasing the mechanism.

Though I would be interested in hearing how you can kill small animals by collapsing wave functions.

Alright, suppose the cat in of itself is a superposition of another cat. The collapse of this wave function thereby kills any extra kitty's.

Sciene mutha fucka, it works.

There was a hard sci fi book about a race of aliens that lived in super-position, and our very witnessing of their home base leads to their destruction. As a solution, they wall up earth so we can't see outside our own galaxy.

I have a question on that. With superposition, how is it that we are aware of it? We can actually get a picture of a superposition wave function before it collapses, yet it collapses when we see it. So what is the difference between a camera and eyes to the wave function that allows it to make such a distinction? What is the discernible difference to a mindless energy?

http://www.nature.com...
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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2/10/2013 4:17:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 4:14:03 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:06:50 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:02:04 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:59:58 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:49:23 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:33:23 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:31:19 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:29:18 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:26:15 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:23:08 PM, Enji wrote:
Is Schrodinger's cat dead or alive?

Dead.

Suffocated.

Well that's depressing.

(actually, i'm not to upset - kitties make me itchy and scratchy and teary and sneezy so i don't like them too much)

Don't know what the heck people expect locking an animal in airtight space and wondering whether it will die due to the superposition of electron.

Don't forget about the poison in there. That sh!t just ain't safe.

I mean...I was kinda referring to superposition as it relates to releasing the mechanism.

Though I would be interested in hearing how you can kill small animals by collapsing wave functions.

Alright, suppose the cat in of itself is a superposition of another cat. The collapse of this wave function thereby kills any extra kitty's.

Sciene mutha fucka, it works.

There was a hard sci fi book about a race of aliens that lived in super-position, and our very witnessing of their home base leads to their destruction. As a solution, they wall up earth so we can't see outside our own galaxy.

I have a question on that. With superposition, how is it that we are aware of it? We can actually get a picture of a superposition wave function before it collapses, yet it collapses when we see it. So what is the difference between a camera and eyes to the wave function that allows it to make such a distinction? What is the discernible difference to a mindless energy?

http://www.nature.com...

I did not understand 90 percent of that, and so have no clue whether or not my question was answered. Thank you anyways.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Enji
Posts: 1,022
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2/10/2013 4:23:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 4:17:17 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:14:03 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:06:50 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:02:04 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:59:58 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:49:23 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:33:23 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:31:19 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:29:18 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:26:15 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:23:08 PM, Enji wrote:
Is Schrodinger's cat dead or alive?

Dead.

Suffocated.

Well that's depressing.

(actually, i'm not to upset - kitties make me itchy and scratchy and teary and sneezy so i don't like them too much)

Don't know what the heck people expect locking an animal in airtight space and wondering whether it will die due to the superposition of electron.

Don't forget about the poison in there. That sh!t just ain't safe.

I mean...I was kinda referring to superposition as it relates to releasing the mechanism.

Though I would be interested in hearing how you can kill small animals by collapsing wave functions.

Alright, suppose the cat in of itself is a superposition of another cat. The collapse of this wave function thereby kills any extra kitty's.

Sciene mutha fucka, it works.

There was a hard sci fi book about a race of aliens that lived in super-position, and our very witnessing of their home base leads to their destruction. As a solution, they wall up earth so we can't see outside our own galaxy.

I have a question on that. With superposition, how is it that we are aware of it? We can actually get a picture of a superposition wave function before it collapses, yet it collapses when we see it. So what is the difference between a camera and eyes to the wave function that allows it to make such a distinction? What is the discernible difference to a mindless energy?

http://www.nature.com...

I did not understand 90 percent of that, and so have no clue whether or not my question was answered. Thank you anyways.

The scientists put the ions into cat states (where they are in equal superpositions) and did some stuff, showing that superposition exists.
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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2/10/2013 4:30:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 4:23:23 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:17:17 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:14:03 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:06:50 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:02:04 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:59:58 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:49:23 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:33:23 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:31:19 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:29:18 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:26:15 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:23:08 PM, Enji wrote:
Is Schrodinger's cat dead or alive?

Dead.

Suffocated.

Well that's depressing.

(actually, i'm not to upset - kitties make me itchy and scratchy and teary and sneezy so i don't like them too much)

Don't know what the heck people expect locking an animal in airtight space and wondering whether it will die due to the superposition of electron.

Don't forget about the poison in there. That sh!t just ain't safe.

I mean...I was kinda referring to superposition as it relates to releasing the mechanism.

Though I would be interested in hearing how you can kill small animals by collapsing wave functions.

Alright, suppose the cat in of itself is a superposition of another cat. The collapse of this wave function thereby kills any extra kitty's.

Sciene mutha fucka, it works.

There was a hard sci fi book about a race of aliens that lived in super-position, and our very witnessing of their home base leads to their destruction. As a solution, they wall up earth so we can't see outside our own galaxy.

I have a question on that. With superposition, how is it that we are aware of it? We can actually get a picture of a superposition wave function before it collapses, yet it collapses when we see it. So what is the difference between a camera and eyes to the wave function that allows it to make such a distinction? What is the discernible difference to a mindless energy?

http://www.nature.com...

I did not understand 90 percent of that, and so have no clue whether or not my question was answered. Thank you anyways.

The scientists put the ions into cat states (where they are in equal superpositions) and did some stuff, showing that superposition exists.

Ok, I think I misunderstood the existence of some evidence for superposition. I had thought I had seen pictures of wave functions that were a result of superposition. I believe you are referring to is the slit test, but I could be wrong.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Enji
Posts: 1,022
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2/10/2013 4:35:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 4:30:35 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:23:23 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:17:17 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:14:03 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:06:50 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:02:04 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:59:58 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:49:23 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:33:23 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:31:19 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:29:18 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:26:15 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:23:08 PM, Enji wrote:
Is Schrodinger's cat dead or alive?

Dead.

Suffocated.

Well that's depressing.

(actually, i'm not to upset - kitties make me itchy and scratchy and teary and sneezy so i don't like them too much)

Don't know what the heck people expect locking an animal in airtight space and wondering whether it will die due to the superposition of electron.

Don't forget about the poison in there. That sh!t just ain't safe.

I mean...I was kinda referring to superposition as it relates to releasing the mechanism.

Though I would be interested in hearing how you can kill small animals by collapsing wave functions.

Alright, suppose the cat in of itself is a superposition of another cat. The collapse of this wave function thereby kills any extra kitty's.

Sciene mutha fucka, it works.

There was a hard sci fi book about a race of aliens that lived in super-position, and our very witnessing of their home base leads to their destruction. As a solution, they wall up earth so we can't see outside our own galaxy.

I have a question on that. With superposition, how is it that we are aware of it? We can actually get a picture of a superposition wave function before it collapses, yet it collapses when we see it. So what is the difference between a camera and eyes to the wave function that allows it to make such a distinction? What is the discernible difference to a mindless energy?

http://www.nature.com...

I did not understand 90 percent of that, and so have no clue whether or not my question was answered. Thank you anyways.

The scientists put the ions into cat states (where they are in equal superpositions) and did some stuff, showing that superposition exists.

Ok, I think I misunderstood the existence of some evidence for superposition. I had thought I had seen pictures of wave functions that were a result of superposition. I believe you are referring to is the slit test, but I could be wrong.

I thought you meant quantum superposition (which is what the experiment was about).
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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2/10/2013 4:36:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 3:11:21 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
Logic isn't a process of a mind, it exists independently of minds.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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2/10/2013 4:37:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 4:35:11 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:30:35 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:23:23 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:17:17 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:14:03 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:06:50 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:02:04 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:59:58 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:49:23 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:33:23 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:31:19 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:29:18 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:26:15 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:23:08 PM, Enji wrote:
Is Schrodinger's cat dead or alive?

Dead.

Suffocated.

Well that's depressing.

(actually, i'm not to upset - kitties make me itchy and scratchy and teary and sneezy so i don't like them too much)

Don't know what the heck people expect locking an animal in airtight space and wondering whether it will die due to the superposition of electron.

Don't forget about the poison in there. That sh!t just ain't safe.

I mean...I was kinda referring to superposition as it relates to releasing the mechanism.

Though I would be interested in hearing how you can kill small animals by collapsing wave functions.

Alright, suppose the cat in of itself is a superposition of another cat. The collapse of this wave function thereby kills any extra kitty's.

Sciene mutha fucka, it works.

There was a hard sci fi book about a race of aliens that lived in super-position, and our very witnessing of their home base leads to their destruction. As a solution, they wall up earth so we can't see outside our own galaxy.

I have a question on that. With superposition, how is it that we are aware of it? We can actually get a picture of a superposition wave function before it collapses, yet it collapses when we see it. So what is the difference between a camera and eyes to the wave function that allows it to make such a distinction? What is the discernible difference to a mindless energy?

http://www.nature.com...

I did not understand 90 percent of that, and so have no clue whether or not my question was answered. Thank you anyways.

The scientists put the ions into cat states (where they are in equal superpositions) and did some stuff, showing that superposition exists.

Ok, I think I misunderstood the existence of some evidence for superposition. I had thought I had seen pictures of wave functions that were a result of superposition. I believe you are referring to is the slit test, but I could be wrong.

I thought you meant quantum superposition (which is what the experiment was about).

I did and do. What made you think otherwise?
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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2/10/2013 5:07:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 4:06:50 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:02:04 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:59:58 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:49:23 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:33:23 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:31:19 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:29:18 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:26:15 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:23:08 PM, Enji wrote:
Is Schrodinger's cat dead or alive?

Dead.

Suffocated.

Well that's depressing.

(actually, i'm not to upset - kitties make me itchy and scratchy and teary and sneezy so i don't like them too much)

Don't know what the heck people expect locking an animal in airtight space and wondering whether it will die due to the superposition of electron.

Don't forget about the poison in there. That sh!t just ain't safe.

I mean...I was kinda referring to superposition as it relates to releasing the mechanism.

Though I would be interested in hearing how you can kill small animals by collapsing wave functions.

Alright, suppose the cat in of itself is a superposition of another cat. The collapse of this wave function thereby kills any extra kitty's.

Sciene mutha fucka, it works.

There was a hard sci fi book about a race of aliens that lived in super-position, and our very witnessing of their home base leads to their destruction. As a solution, they wall up earth so we can't see outside our own galaxy.

I have a question on that. With superposition, how is it that we are aware of it? We can actually get a picture of a superposition wave function before it collapses, yet it collapses when we see it. So what is the difference between a camera and eyes to the wave function that allows it to make such a distinction? What is the discernible difference to a mindless energy?

The difference is that mechanical "measurements" interact with whatever system they are measuring.

If you look at an object in superposition, nothing happens. Your eyes passively take in whatever stimuli floats nearby.

However, since we can't see things that small, we need a detector to "measure" whether or not something is in superposition. The various means of measuring lead to an interaction with the particle in superposition. These are called interferometers.

It is the act of interference that leads to the appearance of wave collapse (it doesn't actually happen).

As a sort of analogy, imagine how cops use lasers to figure out how fast a car is going.

Now imagine trying to use that laser to figure out how fast an photon is going.

It'd be like tracking a water droplet by turning a hose on it.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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2/10/2013 5:07:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm sure the sci fi story had some part where they say the aliens are afraid of detectors on earth, not actual people looking into the sky.
Enji
Posts: 1,022
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2/10/2013 5:11:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 4:37:32 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:35:11 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:30:35 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:23:23 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:17:17 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:14:03 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:06:50 PM, muzebreak wrote:

I have a question on that. With superposition, how is it that we are aware of it? We can actually get a picture of a superposition wave function before it collapses, yet it collapses when we see it. So what is the difference between a camera and eyes to the wave function that allows it to make such a distinction? What is the discernible difference to a mindless energy?

http://www.nature.com...

I did not understand 90 percent of that, and so have no clue whether or not my question was answered. Thank you anyways.

The scientists put the ions into cat states (where they are in equal superpositions) and did some stuff, showing that superposition exists.

Ok, I think I misunderstood the existence of some evidence for superposition. I had thought I had seen pictures of wave functions that were a result of superposition. I believe you are referring to is the slit test, but I could be wrong.

I thought you meant quantum superposition (which is what the experiment was about).

I did and do. What made you think otherwise?

You were just talking about the slit experiment which has to do with the superposition of lightwaves rather than the superposition of spins.

My understanding of quantum mechanics isn't that great, but from what I understand in a cat state the positive spin (up) and the negative spin (down) are equal, so they can compare the expectation value of the up state to that of the down state and show that the one is the negative of the other to show that a cat state existed. Also, the superposition of more cat states will oscillate more rapidly than fewer cat states, and so they can compare the oscillations of the up and down states to determine cat states. This page explains it all more understandably: http://www.nist.gov...
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
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2/10/2013 5:14:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 3:25:59 PM, Wnope wrote:
So there is some "objective" set of logical laws out there which theists can point to?

Tell me, is the following sentence "true" or "false" (recall those laws you're presupposing).

1. This sentence is false.

What's the objective answer?

It's a self-defeating statement, which is logically incoherent.
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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2/10/2013 5:34:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 5:07:00 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:06:50 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:02:04 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:59:58 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:49:23 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:33:23 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:31:19 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:29:18 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:26:15 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 2/10/2013 3:23:08 PM, Enji wrote:
Is Schrodinger's cat dead or alive?

Dead.

Suffocated.

Well that's depressing.

(actually, i'm not to upset - kitties make me itchy and scratchy and teary and sneezy so i don't like them too much)

Don't know what the heck people expect locking an animal in airtight space and wondering whether it will die due to the superposition of electron.

Don't forget about the poison in there. That sh!t just ain't safe.

I mean...I was kinda referring to superposition as it relates to releasing the mechanism.

Though I would be interested in hearing how you can kill small animals by collapsing wave functions.

Alright, suppose the cat in of itself is a superposition of another cat. The collapse of this wave function thereby kills any extra kitty's.

Sciene mutha fucka, it works.

There was a hard sci fi book about a race of aliens that lived in super-position, and our very witnessing of their home base leads to their destruction. As a solution, they wall up earth so we can't see outside our own galaxy.

I have a question on that. With superposition, how is it that we are aware of it? We can actually get a picture of a superposition wave function before it collapses, yet it collapses when we see it. So what is the difference between a camera and eyes to the wave function that allows it to make such a distinction? What is the discernible difference to a mindless energy?

The difference is that mechanical "measurements" interact with whatever system they are measuring.

If you look at an object in superposition, nothing happens. Your eyes passively take in whatever stimuli floats nearby.

However, since we can't see things that small, we need a detector to "measure" whether or not something is in superposition. The various means of measuring lead to an interaction with the particle in superposition. These are called interferometers.

It is the act of interference that leads to the appearance of wave collapse (it doesn't actually happen).

As a sort of analogy, imagine how cops use lasers to figure out how fast a car is going.

Now imagine trying to use that laser to figure out how fast an photon is going.

It'd be like tracking a water droplet by turning a hose on it.

Alright, cool. Thanks for the explanation. :)
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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2/10/2013 5:35:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 5:11:27 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:37:32 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:35:11 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:30:35 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:23:23 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:17:17 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:14:03 PM, Enji wrote:
At 2/10/2013 4:06:50 PM, muzebreak wrote:

I have a question on that. With superposition, how is it that we are aware of it? We can actually get a picture of a superposition wave function before it collapses, yet it collapses when we see it. So what is the difference between a camera and eyes to the wave function that allows it to make such a distinction? What is the discernible difference to a mindless energy?

http://www.nature.com...

I did not understand 90 percent of that, and so have no clue whether or not my question was answered. Thank you anyways.

The scientists put the ions into cat states (where they are in equal superpositions) and did some stuff, showing that superposition exists.

Ok, I think I misunderstood the existence of some evidence for superposition. I had thought I had seen pictures of wave functions that were a result of superposition. I believe you are referring to is the slit test, but I could be wrong.

I thought you meant quantum superposition (which is what the experiment was about).

I did and do. What made you think otherwise?

You were just talking about the slit experiment which has to do with the superposition of lightwaves rather than the superposition of spins.

My understanding of quantum mechanics isn't that great, but from what I understand in a cat state the positive spin (up) and the negative spin (down) are equal, so they can compare the expectation value of the up state to that of the down state and show that the one is the negative of the other to show that a cat state existed. Also, the superposition of more cat states will oscillate more rapidly than fewer cat states, and so they can compare the oscillations of the up and down states to determine cat states. This page explains it all more understandably: http://www.nist.gov...

Ok, I'm starting to discern my confusion. And I see where I caused yours.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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2/10/2013 6:17:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/10/2013 6:04:20 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
TAG fails the chuck Norris test.

As in the "Is it equally likely that Chuck Norris and x are responsible for this?" test?