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Rusty
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2/11/2013 10:26:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If hell is taken to be some sort of eternal fiery furnace, do you think a Christian 100% in accordance with the moral teachings of Christianity, particularly those concerning selflessness, would decide to go to Hell upon death if it somehow guaranteed that every other soul would find God and go to heaven?
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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2/11/2013 10:29:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 10:26:03 PM, Rusty wrote:
If hell is taken to be some sort of eternal fiery furnace, do you think a Christian 100% in accordance with the moral teachings of Christianity, particularly those concerning selflessness, would decide to go to Hell upon death if it somehow guaranteed that every other soul would find God and go to heaven?

There are a lot of big "if" 's in this question.

I know that answers literally nothing, but I just figured I would point it out haha.
Rusty
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2/11/2013 10:30:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 10:29:27 PM, stubs wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:26:03 PM, Rusty wrote:
If hell is taken to be some sort of eternal fiery furnace, do you think a Christian 100% in accordance with the moral teachings of Christianity, particularly those concerning selflessness, would decide to go to Hell upon death if it somehow guaranteed that every other soul would find God and go to heaven?

There are a lot of big "if" 's in this question.

I know that answers literally nothing, but I just figured I would point it out haha.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but which ones in particular come to mind?
Rusty
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2/11/2013 10:32:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If you don't like my description of hell as a fiery furnace, it can be replaced with simply eternal conscious torment.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/11/2013 10:39:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
That's what I told myself when I was Christian.

I also told myself that if:
1. God was still of the same nature
2. Paradoxically, he told me he would send me to hell FOR serving him
...that I would still serve him.

What a douche.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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2/11/2013 10:43:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 10:26:03 PM, Rusty wrote:
If hell is taken to be some sort of eternal fiery furnace, do you think a Christian 100% in accordance with the moral teachings of Christianity, particularly those concerning selflessness, would decide to go to Hell upon death if it somehow guaranteed that every other soul would find God and go to heaven?

I think the "screwtape Letters" by Lewis on audiobook (3 hours) is on order for this one.. Lewis paints a nice portrait of what the non-medieval portrayal of hell is.

Anyhow, I find it hard to think that such a medieval notion of hell is in fact in line with Christian doctrine, but that's a medieval picture of hell, one can argue (most successfully) that the medieval theologians had it right in some things, but blatantly wrong in others (their motives for a furnace of course was itself questionable regarding the deontological view of Christian ethics).
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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2/11/2013 10:44:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 10:39:58 PM, FREEDO wrote:
That's what I told myself when I was Christian.

I also told myself that if:
1. God was still of the same nature
2. Paradoxically, he told me he would send me to hell FOR serving him
...that I would still serve him.

What a douche.

Sound reasoning to say the most.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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2/11/2013 10:50:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 10:43:32 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:26:03 PM, Rusty wrote:
If hell is taken to be some sort of eternal fiery furnace, do you think a Christian 100% in accordance with the moral teachings of Christianity, particularly those concerning selflessness, would decide to go to Hell upon death if it somehow guaranteed that every other soul would find God and go to heaven?

I think the "screwtape Letters" by Lewis on audiobook (3 hours) is on order for this one.. Lewis paints a nice portrait of what the non-medieval portrayal of hell is.

Anyhow, I find it hard to think that such a medieval notion of hell is in fact in line with Christian doctrine, but that's a medieval picture of hell, one can argue (most successfully) that the medieval theologians had it right in some things, but blatantly wrong in others (their motives for a furnace of course was itself questionable regarding the deontological view of Christian ethics).

Interesting, however I guess this is addressed more to people who either hold that view or are willing to consider it for this hypothetical situation. It's not so much that I'm trying to find a criticism of this view of hell. I'm from the Southern Baptist tradition, and I've met a lot of people who do take that kind of "fiery furnace" approach to hell. This is directed towards these sorts of Christians, or those who are willing to step into their shoes for a minute.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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2/11/2013 10:53:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 10:26:03 PM, Rusty wrote:
If hell is taken to be some sort of eternal fiery furnace, do you think a Christian 100% in accordance with the moral teachings of Christianity, particularly those concerning selflessness, would decide to go to Hell upon death if it somehow guaranteed that every other soul would find God and go to heaven?

That's a really hard question to answer particularly because I wouldn't wish ECT on anyone, least of all myself. But I would suppose so.

Perhaps Paul in Romans 9:3 helps here?

"For I wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race. "
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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2/11/2013 11:00:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 10:53:47 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:26:03 PM, Rusty wrote:
If hell is taken to be some sort of eternal fiery furnace, do you think a Christian 100% in accordance with the moral teachings of Christianity, particularly those concerning selflessness, would decide to go to Hell upon death if it somehow guaranteed that every other soul would find God and go to heaven?

That's a really hard question to answer particularly because I wouldn't wish ECT on anyone, least of all myself. But I would suppose so.

Perhaps Paul in Romans 9:3 helps here?

"For I wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race. "

I don't know, does it? Does it assume too much on his view of hell? I really don't know. That verse is actually what prompted this question.
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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2/11/2013 11:09:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 10:53:47 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:26:03 PM, Rusty wrote:
If hell is taken to be some sort of eternal fiery furnace, do you think a Christian 100% in accordance with the moral teachings of Christianity, particularly those concerning selflessness, would decide to go to Hell upon death if it somehow guaranteed that every other soul would find God and go to heaven?

That's a really hard question to answer particularly because I wouldn't wish ECT on anyone, least of all myself. But I would suppose so.

Perhaps Paul in Romans 9:3 helps here?

"For I wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race.... "

Let's finish that verse so it has context, Rom9.4-

"...the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises."

Rom.9:5-

"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen."
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
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2/11/2013 11:15:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 10:26:03 PM, Rusty wrote:
If hell is taken to be some sort of eternal fiery furnace, do you think a Christian 100% in accordance with the moral teachings of Christianity, particularly those concerning selflessness, would decide to go to Hell upon death if it somehow guaranteed that every other soul would find God and go to heaven?

It's a nonsensical question. First, everyone else's salvation is not dependent upon my actions, but on their own actions. Nor could it ever be dependent upon my actions.

Second, Christ already suffered and died to ensure that anyone who wanted to could go to Heaven. There's nothing stopping them except their own refusal to believe.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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2/11/2013 11:17:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 11:15:20 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:26:03 PM, Rusty wrote:
If hell is taken to be some sort of eternal fiery furnace, do you think a Christian 100% in accordance with the moral teachings of Christianity, particularly those concerning selflessness, would decide to go to Hell upon death if it somehow guaranteed that every other soul would find God and go to heaven?

It's a nonsensical question. First, everyone else's salvation is not dependent upon my actions, but on their own actions. Nor could it ever be dependent upon my actions.

Second, Christ already suffered and died to ensure that anyone who wanted to could go to Heaven. There's nothing stopping them except their own refusal to believe.

I think you're missing the the thrust of the question....
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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2/11/2013 11:17:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 11:09:27 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:53:47 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:26:03 PM, Rusty wrote:
If hell is taken to be some sort of eternal fiery furnace, do you think a Christian 100% in accordance with the moral teachings of Christianity, particularly those concerning selflessness, would decide to go to Hell upon death if it somehow guaranteed that every other soul would find God and go to heaven?

That's a really hard question to answer particularly because I wouldn't wish ECT on anyone, least of all myself. But I would suppose so.

Perhaps Paul in Romans 9:3 helps here?

"For I wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race.... "

Let's finish that verse so it has context, Rom9.4-

"...the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises."

Rom.9:5-

"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen."

Alright...?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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2/11/2013 11:23:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 11:17:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/11/2013 11:09:27 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:53:47 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:26:03 PM, Rusty wrote:
If hell is taken to be some sort of eternal fiery furnace, do you think a Christian 100% in accordance with the moral teachings of Christianity, particularly those concerning selflessness, would decide to go to Hell upon death if it somehow guaranteed that every other soul would find God and go to heaven?

That's a really hard question to answer particularly because I wouldn't wish ECT on anyone, least of all myself. But I would suppose so.

Perhaps Paul in Romans 9:3 helps here?

"For I wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race.... "

Let's finish that verse so it has context, Rom9.4-

"...the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises."

Rom.9:5-

"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen."

Alright...?

Ya left us with implied context, as stout universalists often do...
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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2/11/2013 11:26:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 11:15:20 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:26:03 PM, Rusty wrote:
If hell is taken to be some sort of eternal fiery furnace, do you think a Christian 100% in accordance with the moral teachings of Christianity, particularly those concerning selflessness, would decide to go to Hell upon death if it somehow guaranteed that every other soul would find God and go to heaven?

It's a nonsensical question. First, everyone else's salvation is not dependent upon my actions, but on their own actions. Nor could it ever be dependent upon my actions.

Second, Christ already suffered and died to ensure that anyone who wanted to could go to Heaven. There's nothing stopping them except their own refusal to believe.

I don't understand how most of that has any bearing on the situation above. If a Christian could somehow volunteer to experience eternal conscious torment in order that every other soul would choose God and go to heaven- does the degree of selflessness that would be required in that situation reflect the degree of selflessness that we ought to have in reality, according to Christianity?
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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2/11/2013 11:29:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 11:23:13 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 2/11/2013 11:17:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/11/2013 11:09:27 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:53:47 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:26:03 PM, Rusty wrote:
If hell is taken to be some sort of eternal fiery furnace, do you think a Christian 100% in accordance with the moral teachings of Christianity, particularly those concerning selflessness, would decide to go to Hell upon death if it somehow guaranteed that every other soul would find God and go to heaven?

That's a really hard question to answer particularly because I wouldn't wish ECT on anyone, least of all myself. But I would suppose so.

Perhaps Paul in Romans 9:3 helps here?

"For I wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race.... "

Let's finish that verse so it has context, Rom9.4-

"...the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises."

Rom.9:5-

"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen."

Alright...?

Ya left us with implied context, as stout universalists often do...

Says the guy who won't debate me on the subject.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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2/11/2013 11:30:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It's not immediately obvious to me how the omission of that is relevant to what's being discussed. It's possible that he thought the same thing and it didn't actually have anything to do with universalism. I don't know though.
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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2/11/2013 11:30:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 11:29:00 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/11/2013 11:23:13 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 2/11/2013 11:17:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/11/2013 11:09:27 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:53:47 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:26:03 PM, Rusty wrote:
If hell is taken to be some sort of eternal fiery furnace, do you think a Christian 100% in accordance with the moral teachings of Christianity, particularly those concerning selflessness, would decide to go to Hell upon death if it somehow guaranteed that every other soul would find God and go to heaven?

That's a really hard question to answer particularly because I wouldn't wish ECT on anyone, least of all myself. But I would suppose so.

Perhaps Paul in Romans 9:3 helps here?

"For I wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race.... "

Let's finish that verse so it has context, Rom9.4-

"...the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises."

Rom.9:5-

"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen."

Alright...?

Ya left us with implied context, as stout universalists often do...

Says the guy who hasn't yet debated me on the subject.

fix'd
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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2/11/2013 11:33:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 11:30:27 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 2/11/2013 11:29:00 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/11/2013 11:23:13 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 2/11/2013 11:17:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/11/2013 11:09:27 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:53:47 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:26:03 PM, Rusty wrote:
If hell is taken to be some sort of eternal fiery furnace, do you think a Christian 100% in accordance with the moral teachings of Christianity, particularly those concerning selflessness, would decide to go to Hell upon death if it somehow guaranteed that every other soul would find God and go to heaven?

That's a really hard question to answer particularly because I wouldn't wish ECT on anyone, least of all myself. But I would suppose so.

Perhaps Paul in Romans 9:3 helps here?

"For I wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race.... "

Let's finish that verse so it has context, Rom9.4-

"...the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises."

Rom.9:5-

"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen."

Alright...?

Ya left us with implied context, as stout universalists often do...

Says the guy who hasn't yet debated me on the subject.

fix'd

Rofl. You've been saying that for like a year.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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2/11/2013 11:41:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 11:33:15 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/11/2013 11:30:27 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 2/11/2013 11:29:00 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/11/2013 11:23:13 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 2/11/2013 11:17:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/11/2013 11:09:27 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:53:47 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:26:03 PM, Rusty wrote:
If hell is taken to be some sort of eternal fiery furnace, do you think a Christian 100% in accordance with the moral teachings of Christianity, particularly those concerning selflessness, would decide to go to Hell upon death if it somehow guaranteed that every other soul would find God and go to heaven?

That's a really hard question to answer particularly because I wouldn't wish ECT on anyone, least of all myself. But I would suppose so.

Perhaps Paul in Romans 9:3 helps here?

"For I wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race.... "

Let's finish that verse so it has context, Rom9.4-

"...the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises."

Rom.9:5-

"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen."

Alright...?

Ya left us with implied context, as stout universalists often do...

Says the guy who hasn't yet debated me on the subject.

fix'd

Rofl. You've been saying that for like a year.

I haven't existed for a year yet PCP.. I'm only a few months old, step into my world brah.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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2/11/2013 11:45:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 11:41:39 PM, Apeiron wrote:

I haven't existed for a year yet PCP.. I'm only a few months old, step into my world brah.

I'm not sure who you're trying to kid. lol You're obviously R_A. (^_^)
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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2/11/2013 11:51:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 11:45:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/11/2013 11:41:39 PM, Apeiron wrote:

I haven't existed for a year yet PCP.. I'm only a few months old, step into my world brah.

I'm not sure who you're trying to kid. lol You're obviously R_A. (^_^)

The truth or falsity of my being this legend of legends remains classified.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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2/12/2013 5:41:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/11/2013 10:50:20 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:43:32 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 2/11/2013 10:26:03 PM, Rusty wrote:
If hell is taken to be some sort of eternal fiery furnace, do you think a Christian 100% in accordance with the moral teachings of Christianity, particularly those concerning selflessness, would decide to go to Hell upon death if it somehow guaranteed that every other soul would find God and go to heaven?

I think the "screwtape Letters" by Lewis on audiobook (3 hours) is on order for this one.. Lewis paints a nice portrait of what the non-medieval portrayal of hell is.

Anyhow, I find it hard to think that such a medieval notion of hell is in fact in line with Christian doctrine, but that's a medieval picture of hell, one can argue (most successfully) that the medieval theologians had it right in some things, but blatantly wrong in others (their motives for a furnace of course was itself questionable regarding the deontological view of Christian ethics).

Interesting, however I guess this is addressed more to people who either hold that view or are willing to consider it for this hypothetical situation. It's not so much that I'm trying to find a criticism of this view of hell. I'm from the Southern Baptist tradition, and I've met a lot of people who do take that kind of "fiery furnace" approach to hell. This is directed towards these sorts of Christians, or those who are willing to step into their shoes for a minute.

"Considering hypothetically"
Yeah, that is a scary question and I think about it alot especially when praying or sharing God with someone who doesn't like Him or want Him. And yes, to be a christian does involve a certain level of "selflessness" I believe. In my own experience, the more I pursue God and His nature, the more my love for others grows and the depth of my compassion deepens and expands. Which causes me to think about things with more urgency and more concern.
I don't know about anyone else, but I would go to great lengths to make even a tiny difference, though the thought of being separate from God is unbearable, for me anyway. Even more so than roasting in a hell (if thats what we are implying). I think the most extreme example would be the willingness of Jesus to give His own flesh for the freedom of all. To reach that selflessness alone would be a great accomplishment to say the least much less having to consider eternal death.
So do you mean like "burning forever" or just like a coulple weeks or somethin lol? I might be willing to do a week or two for all you God haters, but I'm not sure about forever O.O