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Bible Slavery: TOTALLY DIFFERENT

Wallstreetatheist
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2/14/2013 1:37:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Slavery and genocide were moral problems that God had a difficult time dealing with. The Heavens deliberated on the issue of slavery a long time ago. Hilarity ensued, and also thousands of years of theologically-inspired slavery (I'd include statism in the slavery category, but I'll save that for the politics forum).
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GodSands
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2/14/2013 3:46:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
it is very clear to understand why God wanted there to be slaves from other countries other than Israel or other than the Jews. Have you truly researched it at all or just had a preconceived bias against the Christian God?
popculturepooka
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2/14/2013 9:02:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 3:46:25 AM, GodSands wrote:
it is very clear to understand why God wanted there to be slaves from other countries other than Israel or other than the Jews.

Do tell.

Have you truly researched it at all or just had a preconceived bias against the Christian God?
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vbaculum
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2/14/2013 9:16:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 3:46:25 AM, GodSands wrote:
it is very clear to understand why God wanted there to be slaves from other countries other than Israel or other than the Jews.

Is it one of those things that is so clear that it isn't even worth explaining?

Have you truly researched it at all or just had a preconceived bias against the Christian God?
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slo1
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2/14/2013 9:50:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 3:46:25 AM, GodSands wrote:
it is very clear to understand why God wanted there to be slaves from other countries other than Israel or other than the Jews. Have you truly researched it at all or just had a preconceived bias against the Christian God?

True that.

Obviously, who else could the men of the bible doink when God made their original wife barren. We could not have populated the world without servants and slaves.

Sheesh...some people. Stop judging God....like he even has morals. He is beyond morals because he is perfect.
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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2/14/2013 11:56:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 1:37:56 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Slavery and genocide were moral problems that God had a difficult time dealing with. The Heavens deliberated on the issue of slavery a long time ago. Hilarity ensued, and also thousands of years of theologically-inspired slavery (I'd include statism in the slavery category, but I'll save that for the politics forum).



Look, you're clearly taking this out of context.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
1Devilsadvocate
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2/14/2013 12:17:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 1:37:56 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
theologically-inspired slavery

You trolling?
Or do you actually believe that?
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
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Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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2/14/2013 12:31:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I Usually don't post this much of other peoples words, but it really sums it up better then I can:

"Let all those who are under a yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled" (v. 1).- 1 Timothy 6:1-2a

Master-slave relationships are Paul"s concern in today"s passage, which might seem like an abrupt change in subject until we consider the placement of 1 Timothy 6:1"2a within the letter, specifically within the section that begins with 5:1. This portion of the epistle deals with different problems that plagued the Ephesian church, including the proper behavior of widows, the treatment of one another within the church, and the support of elders. All these instructions address the Christian"s relation to others in the covenant community, so it makes sense for Paul to teach on slaves and masters in this context.

Apparently, many Christian slaves in Ephesus were bringing shame on the gospel by disrespecting their masters (1 Tim. 6:1). Slavery was an intimate part of the social order back then, and any perceived threat to the practice was seen as a threat to society. Throughout the New Testament we find the apostles willing to live at peace with this order for the sake of the gospel insofar as doing so did not compromise the gospel (for example, 1 Peter 2:18). For slaves this meant honoring their masters, as honor is owed to those God has placed in authority (Rom. 13:1"7; 1 Peter 2:13"14). Paul was not concerned with overturning slavery itself, and it should be noted that slavery in the ancient Roman Empire was closer to the modern-day employer-employee relationship, not the slavery of other eras based on kidnapping and racism, which Scripture abhors (Ex. 21:16; Gal. 3:28). In any case, to dishonor our supervisors today, as with a slave"s dishonoring of his master in the first century, falsely depicts Christianity, "as if God, whom we worship, incited us to rebellion, and as if the gospel rendered obstinate and disobedient those who ought to be subject to others" (John Calvin).

Though the apostle did not argue against slavery, his teaching in 1 Timothy 6:2a was unheard of in his day. In ancient Rome, slaves obviously had a lower social status. Yet Paul says a slave"s work benefits his master, making him equal to him in the good he can do. Passages like this eventually led certain men in the West to fight for the abolition of slavery, and the gospel"s absence in other parts of the world may help explain why some nations still practice slavery today.

Coram Deo

Dr. John MacArthur writes, "Displaying a proper attitude of submission and respect, and performing quality work, help make the gospel believable" (The MacArthur Bible Commentary, p. 1,797). Those who profess Christ and yet are insubordinate to their employers or lazy are a poor witness to the unbelieving world. Jesus demands His people to aim for the highest standards, and so believers should be the most diligent and thoughtful workers of all.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
annanicole
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2/14/2013 1:51:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 11:56:55 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/14/2013 1:37:56 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Slavery and genocide were moral problems that God had a difficult time dealing with. The Heavens deliberated on the issue of slavery a long time ago. Hilarity ensued, and also thousands of years of theologically-inspired slavery (I'd include statism in the slavery category, but I'll save that for the politics forum).



Look, you're clearly taking this out of context.

Well, the first sentence says "slavery and genocide were moral problems that God had a difficult time dealing with." I recall no such statement - or anything similar - in the Bible. If it (or anything akin to it) is there, then someone might please enlighten me. Anyway, the next: "The Heavens deliberated on the issue of slavery a long time ago." Again, I do not recall any such deliberation. The conclusion: something known as "theologically-inspired slavery." ?????

I agree with Paradox's post (except when he quites MacArthur, of course). MacArthur said, "Displaying a proper attitude of submission and respect, and performing quality work, help make the gospel believable." Huh? A presumed Bible commentator said that? I somehow doubt that the "believability" of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ is dependent in any way upon whether a servant "performs quality work" or not.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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2/14/2013 1:56:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 1:51:07 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/14/2013 11:56:55 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/14/2013 1:37:56 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Slavery and genocide were moral problems that God had a difficult time dealing with. The Heavens deliberated on the issue of slavery a long time ago. Hilarity ensued, and also thousands of years of theologically-inspired slavery (I'd include statism in the slavery category, but I'll save that for the politics forum).



Look, you're clearly taking this out of context.

Well, the first sentence says "slavery and genocide were moral problems that God had a difficult time dealing with." I recall no such statement - or anything similar - in the Bible. If it (or anything akin to it) is there, then someone might please enlighten me. Anyway, the next: "The Heavens deliberated on the issue of slavery a long time ago." Again, I do not recall any such deliberation. The conclusion: something known as "theologically-inspired slavery." ?????

I agree with Paradox's post (except when he quites MacArthur, of course). MacArthur said, "Displaying a proper attitude of submission and respect, and performing quality work, help make the gospel believable." Huh? A presumed Bible commentator said that? I somehow doubt that the "believability" of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ is dependent in any way upon whether a servant "performs quality work" or not.

Curious as to why you made this a response to my post. But to address your response, did you watch the video?
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
slo1
Posts: 4,364
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2/14/2013 2:29:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 12:31:54 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
I Usually don't post this much of other peoples words, but it really sums it up better then I can:

"Let all those who are under a yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled" (v. 1).- 1 Timothy 6:1-2a

Master-slave relationships are Paul"s concern in today"s passage, which might seem like an abrupt change in subject until we consider the placement of 1 Timothy 6:1"2a within the letter, specifically within the section that begins with 5:1. This portion of the epistle deals with different problems that plagued the Ephesian church, including the proper behavior of widows, the treatment of one another within the church, and the support of elders. All these instructions address the Christian"s relation to others in the covenant community, so it makes sense for Paul to teach on slaves and masters in this context.

Apparently, many Christian slaves in Ephesus were bringing shame on the gospel by disrespecting their masters (1 Tim. 6:1). Slavery was an intimate part of the social order back then, and any perceived threat to the practice was seen as a threat to society. Throughout the New Testament we find the apostles willing to live at peace with this order for the sake of the gospel insofar as doing so did not compromise the gospel (for example, 1 Peter 2:18). For slaves this meant honoring their masters, as honor is owed to those God has placed in authority (Rom. 13:1"7; 1 Peter 2:13"14). Paul was not concerned with overturning slavery itself, and it should be noted that slavery in the ancient Roman Empire was closer to the modern-day employer-employee relationship, not the slavery of other eras based on kidnapping and racism, which Scripture abhors (Ex. 21:16; Gal. 3:28). In any case, to dishonor our supervisors today, as with a slave"s dishonoring of his master in the first century, falsely depicts Christianity, "as if God, whom we worship, incited us to rebellion, and as if the gospel rendered obstinate and disobedient those who ought to be subject to others" (John Calvin).

Though the apostle did not argue against slavery, his teaching in 1 Timothy 6:2a was unheard of in his day. In ancient Rome, slaves obviously had a lower social status. Yet Paul says a slave"s work benefits his master, making him equal to him in the good he can do. Passages like this eventually led certain men in the West to fight for the abolition of slavery, and the gospel"s absence in other parts of the world may help explain why some nations still practice slavery today.

Coram Deo

Dr. John MacArthur writes, "Displaying a proper attitude of submission and respect, and performing quality work, help make the gospel believable" (The MacArthur Bible Commentary, p. 1,797). Those who profess Christ and yet are insubordinate to their employers or lazy are a poor witness to the unbelieving world. Jesus demands His people to aim for the highest standards, and so believers should be the most diligent and thoughtful workers of all.

So what does that mean? If I am a slave I should be the best slave I can be? High quality living advice there.
annanicole
Posts: 19,792
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2/14/2013 2:54:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 2:29:32 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 2/14/2013 12:31:54 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
I Usually don't post this much of other peoples words, but it really sums it up better then I can:

"Let all those who are under a yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled" (v. 1).- 1 Timothy 6:1-2a

Master-slave relationships are Paul"s concern in today"s passage, which might seem like an abrupt change in subject until we consider the placement of 1 Timothy 6:1"2a within the letter, specifically within the section that begins with 5:1. This portion of the epistle deals with different problems that plagued the Ephesian church, including the proper behavior of widows, the treatment of one another within the church, and the support of elders. All these instructions address the Christian"s relation to others in the covenant community, so it makes sense for Paul to teach on slaves and masters in this context.

Apparently, many Christian slaves in Ephesus were bringing shame on the gospel by disrespecting their masters (1 Tim. 6:1). Slavery was an intimate part of the social order back then, and any perceived threat to the practice was seen as a threat to society. Throughout the New Testament we find the apostles willing to live at peace with this order for the sake of the gospel insofar as doing so did not compromise the gospel (for example, 1 Peter 2:18). For slaves this meant honoring their masters, as honor is owed to those God has placed in authority (Rom. 13:1"7; 1 Peter 2:13"14). Paul was not concerned with overturning slavery itself, and it should be noted that slavery in the ancient Roman Empire was closer to the modern-day employer-employee relationship, not the slavery of other eras based on kidnapping and racism, which Scripture abhors (Ex. 21:16; Gal. 3:28). In any case, to dishonor our supervisors today, as with a slave"s dishonoring of his master in the first century, falsely depicts Christianity, "as if God, whom we worship, incited us to rebellion, and as if the gospel rendered obstinate and disobedient those who ought to be subject to others" (John Calvin).

Though the apostle did not argue against slavery, his teaching in 1 Timothy 6:2a was unheard of in his day. In ancient Rome, slaves obviously had a lower social status. Yet Paul says a slave"s work benefits his master, making him equal to him in the good he can do. Passages like this eventually led certain men in the West to fight for the abolition of slavery, and the gospel"s absence in other parts of the world may help explain why some nations still practice slavery today.

Coram Deo

Dr. John MacArthur writes, "Displaying a proper attitude of submission and respect, and performing quality work, help make the gospel believable" (The MacArthur Bible Commentary, p. 1,797). Those who profess Christ and yet are insubordinate to their employers or lazy are a poor witness to the unbelieving world. Jesus demands His people to aim for the highest standards, and so believers should be the most diligent and thoughtful workers of all.

So what does that mean? If I am a slave I should be the best slave I can be? High quality living advice there.

Yep. That's precisely what it means. If you are a garbage-man, you should be the best garbage-man around. If you are a brain-surgeon, you should strive to be the best brain-surgeon. One of the greatest lies of all time is: all men are created equal in all respects. Positively imbecilic. It is extremely difficult for most of us common folks to be "equal" in all respects to the Vanderbilts or DuPonts or Kennedys. It was kinda difficult for me to compete against the colored girls at basketball and track, too. They were built differently, from the neck down. Course they had to compete with me on science and mathematics tests - so it sorta evened out. ::)))
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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2/14/2013 2:59:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 2:54:06 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/14/2013 2:29:32 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 2/14/2013 12:31:54 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
I Usually don't post this much of other peoples words, but it really sums it up better then I can:

"Let all those who are under a yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled" (v. 1).- 1 Timothy 6:1-2a

Master-slave relationships are Paul"s concern in today"s passage, which might seem like an abrupt change in subject until we consider the placement of 1 Timothy 6:1"2a within the letter, specifically within the section that begins with 5:1. This portion of the epistle deals with different problems that plagued the Ephesian church, including the proper behavior of widows, the treatment of one another within the church, and the support of elders. All these instructions address the Christian"s relation to others in the covenant community, so it makes sense for Paul to teach on slaves and masters in this context.

Apparently, many Christian slaves in Ephesus were bringing shame on the gospel by disrespecting their masters (1 Tim. 6:1). Slavery was an intimate part of the social order back then, and any perceived threat to the practice was seen as a threat to society. Throughout the New Testament we find the apostles willing to live at peace with this order for the sake of the gospel insofar as doing so did not compromise the gospel (for example, 1 Peter 2:18). For slaves this meant honoring their masters, as honor is owed to those God has placed in authority (Rom. 13:1"7; 1 Peter 2:13"14). Paul was not concerned with overturning slavery itself, and it should be noted that slavery in the ancient Roman Empire was closer to the modern-day employer-employee relationship, not the slavery of other eras based on kidnapping and racism, which Scripture abhors (Ex. 21:16; Gal. 3:28). In any case, to dishonor our supervisors today, as with a slave"s dishonoring of his master in the first century, falsely depicts Christianity, "as if God, whom we worship, incited us to rebellion, and as if the gospel rendered obstinate and disobedient those who ought to be subject to others" (John Calvin).

Though the apostle did not argue against slavery, his teaching in 1 Timothy 6:2a was unheard of in his day. In ancient Rome, slaves obviously had a lower social status. Yet Paul says a slave"s work benefits his master, making him equal to him in the good he can do. Passages like this eventually led certain men in the West to fight for the abolition of slavery, and the gospel"s absence in other parts of the world may help explain why some nations still practice slavery today.

Coram Deo

Dr. John MacArthur writes, "Displaying a proper attitude of submission and respect, and performing quality work, help make the gospel believable" (The MacArthur Bible Commentary, p. 1,797). Those who profess Christ and yet are insubordinate to their employers or lazy are a poor witness to the unbelieving world. Jesus demands His people to aim for the highest standards, and so believers should be the most diligent and thoughtful workers of all.

So what does that mean? If I am a slave I should be the best slave I can be? High quality living advice there.

Yep. That's precisely what it means. If you are a garbage-man, you should be the best garbage-man around. If you are a brain-surgeon, you should strive to be the best brain-surgeon. One of the greatest lies of all time is: all men are created equal in all respects. Positively imbecilic. It is extremely difficult for most of us common folks to be "equal" in all respects to the Vanderbilts or DuPonts or Kennedys. It was kinda difficult for me to compete against the colored girls at basketball and track, too. They were built differently, from the neck down. Course they had to compete with me on science and mathematics tests - so it sorta evened out. ::)))

That shows a very disturbing view of the world.

If you are a slave, you shouldn't try to be the best slave. You should try to be free. Just like if you are a garbage man, you should try to get a better job.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
annanicole
Posts: 19,792
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2/14/2013 3:41:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 2:59:56 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/14/2013 2:54:06 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/14/2013 2:29:32 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 2/14/2013 12:31:54 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
I Usually don't post this much of other peoples words, but it really sums it up better then I can:

"Let all those who are under a yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled" (v. 1).- 1 Timothy 6:1-2a

Master-slave relationships are Paul"s concern in today"s passage, which might seem like an abrupt change in subject until we consider the placement of 1 Timothy 6:1"2a within the letter, specifically within the section that begins with 5:1. This portion of the epistle deals with different problems that plagued the Ephesian church, including the proper behavior of widows, the treatment of one another within the church, and the support of elders. All these instructions address the Christian"s relation to others in the covenant community, so it makes sense for Paul to teach on slaves and masters in this context.

Apparently, many Christian slaves in Ephesus were bringing shame on the gospel by disrespecting their masters (1 Tim. 6:1). Slavery was an intimate part of the social order back then, and any perceived threat to the practice was seen as a threat to society. Throughout the New Testament we find the apostles willing to live at peace with this order for the sake of the gospel insofar as doing so did not compromise the gospel (for example, 1 Peter 2:18). For slaves this meant honoring their masters, as honor is owed to those God has placed in authority (Rom. 13:1"7; 1 Peter 2:13"14). Paul was not concerned with overturning slavery itself, and it should be noted that slavery in the ancient Roman Empire was closer to the modern-day employer-employee relationship, not the slavery of other eras based on kidnapping and racism, which Scripture abhors (Ex. 21:16; Gal. 3:28). In any case, to dishonor our supervisors today, as with a slave"s dishonoring of his master in the first century, falsely depicts Christianity, "as if God, whom we worship, incited us to rebellion, and as if the gospel rendered obstinate and disobedient those who ought to be subject to others" (John Calvin).

Though the apostle did not argue against slavery, his teaching in 1 Timothy 6:2a was unheard of in his day. In ancient Rome, slaves obviously had a lower social status. Yet Paul says a slave"s work benefits his master, making him equal to him in the good he can do. Passages like this eventually led certain men in the West to fight for the abolition of slavery, and the gospel"s absence in other parts of the world may help explain why some nations still practice slavery today.

Coram Deo

Dr. John MacArthur writes, "Displaying a proper attitude of submission and respect, and performing quality work, help make the gospel believable" (The MacArthur Bible Commentary, p. 1,797). Those who profess Christ and yet are insubordinate to their employers or lazy are a poor witness to the unbelieving world. Jesus demands His people to aim for the highest standards, and so believers should be the most diligent and thoughtful workers of all.

So what does that mean? If I am a slave I should be the best slave I can be? High quality living advice there.

Yep. That's precisely what it means. If you are a garbage-man, you should be the best garbage-man around. If you are a brain-surgeon, you should strive to be the best brain-surgeon. One of the greatest lies of all time is: all men are created equal in all respects. Positively imbecilic. It is extremely difficult for most of us common folks to be "equal" in all respects to the Vanderbilts or DuPonts or Kennedys. It was kinda difficult for me to compete against the colored girls at basketball and track, too. They were built differently, from the neck down. Course they had to compete with me on science and mathematics tests - so it sorta evened out. ::)))

That shows a very disturbing view of the world.

If you are a slave, you shouldn't try to be the best slave. You should try to be free. Just like if you are a garbage man, you should try to get a better job.

And how, pray tell, would you suggest "trying to be free"? Nobody - and nothing in Christianity - discourages "trying to be free". The question is, "What methodology should one employ?" Do you think being the world's worst slave somehow increases the odds of freedom? Fact is: many slaves worked their way into freedom. Same with being a garbage-man or janitor. There's nothing "disturbing" about it.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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2/14/2013 3:56:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 3:41:03 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/14/2013 2:59:56 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 2/14/2013 2:54:06 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/14/2013 2:29:32 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 2/14/2013 12:31:54 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
I Usually don't post this much of other peoples words, but it really sums it up better then I can:

"Let all those who are under a yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled" (v. 1).- 1 Timothy 6:1-2a

Master-slave relationships are Paul"s concern in today"s passage, which might seem like an abrupt change in subject until we consider the placement of 1 Timothy 6:1"2a within the letter, specifically within the section that begins with 5:1. This portion of the epistle deals with different problems that plagued the Ephesian church, including the proper behavior of widows, the treatment of one another within the church, and the support of elders. All these instructions address the Christian"s relation to others in the covenant community, so it makes sense for Paul to teach on slaves and masters in this context.

Apparently, many Christian slaves in Ephesus were bringing shame on the gospel by disrespecting their masters (1 Tim. 6:1). Slavery was an intimate part of the social order back then, and any perceived threat to the practice was seen as a threat to society. Throughout the New Testament we find the apostles willing to live at peace with this order for the sake of the gospel insofar as doing so did not compromise the gospel (for example, 1 Peter 2:18). For slaves this meant honoring their masters, as honor is owed to those God has placed in authority (Rom. 13:1"7; 1 Peter 2:13"14). Paul was not concerned with overturning slavery itself, and it should be noted that slavery in the ancient Roman Empire was closer to the modern-day employer-employee relationship, not the slavery of other eras based on kidnapping and racism, which Scripture abhors (Ex. 21:16; Gal. 3:28). In any case, to dishonor our supervisors today, as with a slave"s dishonoring of his master in the first century, falsely depicts Christianity, "as if God, whom we worship, incited us to rebellion, and as if the gospel rendered obstinate and disobedient those who ought to be subject to others" (John Calvin).

Though the apostle did not argue against slavery, his teaching in 1 Timothy 6:2a was unheard of in his day. In ancient Rome, slaves obviously had a lower social status. Yet Paul says a slave"s work benefits his master, making him equal to him in the good he can do. Passages like this eventually led certain men in the West to fight for the abolition of slavery, and the gospel"s absence in other parts of the world may help explain why some nations still practice slavery today.

Coram Deo

Dr. John MacArthur writes, "Displaying a proper attitude of submission and respect, and performing quality work, help make the gospel believable" (The MacArthur Bible Commentary, p. 1,797). Those who profess Christ and yet are insubordinate to their employers or lazy are a poor witness to the unbelieving world. Jesus demands His people to aim for the highest standards, and so believers should be the most diligent and thoughtful workers of all.

So what does that mean? If I am a slave I should be the best slave I can be? High quality living advice there.

Yep. That's precisely what it means. If you are a garbage-man, you should be the best garbage-man around. If you are a brain-surgeon, you should strive to be the best brain-surgeon. One of the greatest lies of all time is: all men are created equal in all respects. Positively imbecilic. It is extremely difficult for most of us common folks to be "equal" in all respects to the Vanderbilts or DuPonts or Kennedys. It was kinda difficult for me to compete against the colored girls at basketball and track, too. They were built differently, from the neck down. Course they had to compete with me on science and mathematics tests - so it sorta evened out. ::)))

That shows a very disturbing view of the world.

If you are a slave, you shouldn't try to be the best slave. You should try to be free. Just like if you are a garbage man, you should try to get a better job.

And how, pray tell, would you suggest "trying to be free"? Nobody - and nothing in Christianity - discourages "trying to be free". The question is, "What methodology should one employ?" Do you think being the world's worst slave somehow increases the odds of freedom? Fact is: many slaves worked their way into freedom. Same with being a garbage-man or janitor. There's nothing "disturbing" about it.

There is, in fact, something disturbing with the view that slaves should work hard for their master. And becoming free is, by the very nature of it, being a bad slave. Sure, a garbage man can work his way to a better job. But there I doubt there exist someone who worked so hard at being a garbage man that he got a better job. There is no career path from garbage man. It's a lone rung on a one step ladder.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Paradox_7
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2/14/2013 4:05:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 2:29:32 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 2/14/2013 12:31:54 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
I Usually don't post this much of other peoples words, but it really sums it up better then I can:

"Let all those who are under a yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled" (v. 1).- 1 Timothy 6:1-2a

Master-slave relationships are Paul"s concern in today"s passage, which might seem like an abrupt change in subject until we consider the placement of 1 Timothy 6:1"2a within the letter, specifically within the section that begins with 5:1. This portion of the epistle deals with different problems that plagued the Ephesian church, including the proper behavior of widows, the treatment of one another within the church, and the support of elders. All these instructions address the Christian"s relation to others in the covenant community, so it makes sense for Paul to teach on slaves and masters in this context.

Apparently, many Christian slaves in Ephesus were bringing shame on the gospel by disrespecting their masters (1 Tim. 6:1). Slavery was an intimate part of the social order back then, and any perceived threat to the practice was seen as a threat to society. Throughout the New Testament we find the apostles willing to live at peace with this order for the sake of the gospel insofar as doing so did not compromise the gospel (for example, 1 Peter 2:18). For slaves this meant honoring their masters, as honor is owed to those God has placed in authority (Rom. 13:1"7; 1 Peter 2:13"14). Paul was not concerned with overturning slavery itself, and it should be noted that slavery in the ancient Roman Empire was closer to the modern-day employer-employee relationship, not the slavery of other eras based on kidnapping and racism, which Scripture abhors (Ex. 21:16; Gal. 3:28). In any case, to dishonor our supervisors today, as with a slave"s dishonoring of his master in the first century, falsely depicts Christianity, "as if God, whom we worship, incited us to rebellion, and as if the gospel rendered obstinate and disobedient those who ought to be subject to others" (John Calvin).

Though the apostle did not argue against slavery, his teaching in 1 Timothy 6:2a was unheard of in his day. In ancient Rome, slaves obviously had a lower social status. Yet Paul says a slave"s work benefits his master, making him equal to him in the good he can do. Passages like this eventually led certain men in the West to fight for the abolition of slavery, and the gospel"s absence in other parts of the world may help explain why some nations still practice slavery today.

Coram Deo

Dr. John MacArthur writes, "Displaying a proper attitude of submission and respect, and performing quality work, help make the gospel believable" (The MacArthur Bible Commentary, p. 1,797). Those who profess Christ and yet are insubordinate to their employers or lazy are a poor witness to the unbelieving world. Jesus demands His people to aim for the highest standards, and so believers should be the most diligent and thoughtful workers of all.

So what does that mean? If I am a slave I should be the best slave I can be? High quality living advice there.

It's not advice, its a description. A righteous person will live to honor God in anything that they do. In the age being discussed, and with the group of people being taught, the relationship between master and slave, was more like it is today with employers and employees.

I don't see how the connection is really that hard to make. The most recent examples of slavery we have are clear abominations, and far from what is being described in the bible. There were no rules, and deffinately no punishment for mistreating slaves in any other culture besides that of the Jews/Christians.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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2/14/2013 4:11:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 2:54:06 PM, annanicole wrote:
Yep. That's precisely what it means. If you are a garbage-man, you should be the best garbage-man around. If you are a brain-surgeon, you should strive to be the best brain-surgeon. One of the greatest lies of all time is: all men are created equal in all respects. Positively imbecilic. It is extremely difficult for most of us common folks to be "equal" in all respects to the Vanderbilts or DuPonts or Kennedys. It was kinda difficult for me to compete against the colored girls at basketball and track, too. They were built differently, from the neck down. Course they had to compete with me on science and mathematics tests - so it sorta evened out. ::)))


Well don't look now anna, but you just explained what John Macarthur said.

A poor witness, is one who doesn't do what you are describing. Like James said iin chapter 2, we are justified by our works; this is a prime example of the type of justification he is talking about. Not being justified in the sight of God, but the emperical evidence of ones faith to our neighbor.

Great post btw. I agree completely.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
muzebreak
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2/14/2013 4:17:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 4:05:52 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 2/14/2013 2:29:32 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 2/14/2013 12:31:54 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
I Usually don't post this much of other peoples words, but it really sums it up better then I can:

"Let all those who are under a yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled" (v. 1).- 1 Timothy 6:1-2a

Master-slave relationships are Paul"s concern in today"s passage, which might seem like an abrupt change in subject until we consider the placement of 1 Timothy 6:1"2a within the letter, specifically within the section that begins with 5:1. This portion of the epistle deals with different problems that plagued the Ephesian church, including the proper behavior of widows, the treatment of one another within the church, and the support of elders. All these instructions address the Christian"s relation to others in the covenant community, so it makes sense for Paul to teach on slaves and masters in this context.

Apparently, many Christian slaves in Ephesus were bringing shame on the gospel by disrespecting their masters (1 Tim. 6:1). Slavery was an intimate part of the social order back then, and any perceived threat to the practice was seen as a threat to society. Throughout the New Testament we find the apostles willing to live at peace with this order for the sake of the gospel insofar as doing so did not compromise the gospel (for example, 1 Peter 2:18). For slaves this meant honoring their masters, as honor is owed to those God has placed in authority (Rom. 13:1"7; 1 Peter 2:13"14). Paul was not concerned with overturning slavery itself, and it should be noted that slavery in the ancient Roman Empire was closer to the modern-day employer-employee relationship, not the slavery of other eras based on kidnapping and racism, which Scripture abhors (Ex. 21:16; Gal. 3:28). In any case, to dishonor our supervisors today, as with a slave"s dishonoring of his master in the first century, falsely depicts Christianity, "as if God, whom we worship, incited us to rebellion, and as if the gospel rendered obstinate and disobedient those who ought to be subject to others" (John Calvin).

Though the apostle did not argue against slavery, his teaching in 1 Timothy 6:2a was unheard of in his day. In ancient Rome, slaves obviously had a lower social status. Yet Paul says a slave"s work benefits his master, making him equal to him in the good he can do. Passages like this eventually led certain men in the West to fight for the abolition of slavery, and the gospel"s absence in other parts of the world may help explain why some nations still practice slavery today.

Coram Deo

Dr. John MacArthur writes, "Displaying a proper attitude of submission and respect, and performing quality work, help make the gospel believable" (The MacArthur Bible Commentary, p. 1,797). Those who profess Christ and yet are insubordinate to their employers or lazy are a poor witness to the unbelieving world. Jesus demands His people to aim for the highest standards, and so believers should be the most diligent and thoughtful workers of all.

So what does that mean? If I am a slave I should be the best slave I can be? High quality living advice there.

It's not advice, its a description. A righteous person will live to honor God in anything that they do. In the age being discussed, and with the group of people being taught, the relationship between master and slave, was more like it is today with employers and employees.

I don't see how the connection is really that hard to make. The most recent examples of slavery we have are clear abominations, and far from what is being described in the bible. There were no rules, and deffinately no punishment for mistreating slaves in any other culture besides that of the Jews/Christians.

Yes, because its ok to have a slave aslong as you don't mistreat your property. Because that's what a slave is. Property.

There were, and are, no similarities between an slave master relationship and a employer employe relationship. Besides the fact that one works for the other in both. Of course a Slave has no say over his hours, what he does for this work, and who he worked for, so even that is barely a similarity.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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2/14/2013 4:22:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 1:37:56 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Slavery and genocide were moral problems that God had a difficult time dealing with. The Heavens deliberated on the issue of slavery a long time ago. Hilarity ensued, and also thousands of years of theologically-inspired slavery (I'd include statism in the slavery category, but I'll save that for the politics forum).



That's a nice signature you've got there.
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annanicole
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2/14/2013 4:42:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 4:11:21 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 2/14/2013 2:54:06 PM, annanicole wrote:
Yep. That's precisely what it means. If you are a garbage-man, you should be the best garbage-man around. If you are a brain-surgeon, you should strive to be the best brain-surgeon. One of the greatest lies of all time is: all men are created equal in all respects. Positively imbecilic. It is extremely difficult for most of us common folks to be "equal" in all respects to the Vanderbilts or DuPonts or Kennedys. It was kinda difficult for me to compete against the colored girls at basketball and track, too. They were built differently, from the neck down. Course they had to compete with me on science and mathematics tests - so it sorta evened out. ::)))


Well don't look now anna, but you just explained what John Macarthur said.

MacArthur employed the wrong words.

A poor witness, is one who doesn't do what you are describing. Like James said iin chapter 2, we are justified by our works; this is a prime example of the type of justification he is talking about.

It has nothing at all to do with what James was talking about for James asked the rheotorical question, "Can faith (alone) save him?" The obvious answer is "No", the protests of certain groups notwithstanding. Mr. MacArthur uses "justified" and "saved" and other equivalents in James 2 to mean "justified in the eyes of men" - and nothing else. Nothing else! Tis true that good works such as feeding the hungry and clothing the naked, as in James 2, serve as a positive reflection of Christianity to the world, but James means much more than that.

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"

I hardly see how James' use of Abraham helps Mr. MacArthur, since one cannot prove that anyone else even witnessed the event. So exactly in whose eyes was father Abraham justified? Why, God's eyes, of course.

James, by the way, is a prime example of differing meanings of pistueo (and its derivatives) based upon context:

"The devils also believe, and tremble." <-- in that usage, pistis simply means mental assent - and nothing more. The devils give a head-nod to the fact that Jesus Christ is God's Son, but certainly maintain no confidence, no trust, no reliance upon Him. James demonstrates the narrowest definition of that word in that verse.

Not being justified in the sight of God, but the emperical evidence of ones faith to our neighbor.

Both. Primarily in the sight of God, although James also alludes to a positive influence - the presentation of Christianity in a positive light - in the eyes of our friends and neighbors.

Great post btw. I agree completely.

And I agreed with the majority of yours, other than the quote from Mr. MacArthur. I've read his comments on James, particularly 14-26, and he goes around the world - full-circle - and tends to only delve into detail when he can elevate a particular passage that supports his idea that James is only talking about some kind of vague "justification in the eyes of the public" faith. In his view, justification in the eyes of God in non-existent in 14-26: that's why his comments on 14b are ... nonexistent. "Can faith save him in the eyes of men" makes no sense at all.
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annanicole
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2/14/2013 4:48:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"There were, and are, no similarities between an slave master relationship and a employer employe relationship."

Haha. Many times, slaves were treated much better: the slave-owner had every reason in the world to be considerate of the slave's health and happiness. After all, slaves were expensive on the front-end, and expensive on the upkeep. An employee can be ditched and replaced at virtually no cost. The movie depiction of the wicked master whipping his slaves into submission was, for the most part, a dramatization which exposed the horrible side of the institution. Why do you think so many former slaves actually preferred slavery over their new-found freedom?
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Stephen_Hawkins
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2/14/2013 5:03:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 4:48:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
"There were, and are, no similarities between an slave master relationship and a employer employe relationship."

Haha. Many times, slaves were treated much better: the slave-owner had every reason in the world to be considerate of the slave's health and happiness. After all, slaves were expensive on the front-end, and expensive on the upkeep. An employee can be ditched and replaced at virtually no cost. The movie depiction of the wicked master whipping his slaves into submission was, for the most part, a dramatization which exposed the horrible side of the institution. Why do you think so many former slaves actually preferred slavery over their new-found freedom?

Bullsh!t.

Are you honestly saying that it costs less to keep on a worker who can leave if he isn't happy than a worker who can't leave if he isn't happy?
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

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Paradox_7
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2/14/2013 5:04:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 4:17:14 PM, muzebreak wrote:
It's not advice, its a description. A righteous person will live to honor God in anything that they do. In the age being discussed, and with the group of people being taught, the relationship between master and slave, was more like it is today with employers and employees.

I don't see how the connection is really that hard to make. The most recent examples of slavery we have are clear abominations, and far from what is being described in the bible. There were no rules, and deffinately no punishment for mistreating slaves in any other culture besides that of the Jews/Christians.

Yes, because its ok to have a slave aslong as you don't mistreat your property. Because that's what a slave is. Property.

Yes, it was tollerated, and in may ways necessary. You can try to come up with as many derrogatory names as you'd like, to try to appeal to our current societal norm, but this doesn't matter at all.

People needed food, shelter, and clothing, there were no unions or corporations, no minimum wage laws, nor employee rights; and deffinately no welfare. There were families who had land, or assets, and needed workers; these slaves needed the things mentioned above, so they worked for them.

No, it wasn't completely the same as today, so what? This was the best way to provide for those in need, sustain order, and maintain their communities. You're being incredibly thick skulled if you can't admit that.

There were, and are, no similarities between an slave master relationship and a employer employe relationship. Besides the fact that one works for the other in both. Of course a Slave has no say over his hours, what he does for this work, and who he worked for, so even that is barely a similarity.

How do you know that slaves didn't have down time, or get time to spend with their families? You don't, and everything within scripture suggests they did get these liberties. Furthermore, there were terms for a slave. For example, after 6-7 years of service they could find another master, start their own buisness/trade, or remain with their current master.

* Slaves were to be treated as hired workers, not slaves (Lev 25:39-43)

* All slaves were to be freed after six years (Ex 21:2, Dt 15:12)

* Freed slaves were to be liberally supplied with grain, wine and livestock (Dt 15:12-15)

* Every fiftieth year (the year of jubilee), all Hebrew slaves were to be freed, even those owned by foreigners (Lev 25:10, 47-54)

* Slaves could choose to remain with their masters if they felt it was in their best interests (Dt 15:16-17)

* If a Hebrew sold himself as a slave to a foreigner, he reserved the right to buy his freedom (Lev 25:47-49) and was still to be treated as a hired man (Lev 25:53).

This one is the most revealing in my oppion: Slaves who ran away, and sought refuge with someone, that person was to welcome them and take care of them-- not to return them to their masters-- Deut. 23:15-16

15 If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand them over to their master. 16 Let them live among you wherever they like and in whatever town they choose. Do not oppress them.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Wallstreetatheist
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2/14/2013 7:09:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 12:17:57 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 2/14/2013 1:37:56 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
theologically-inspired slavery

You trolling?
Or do you actually believe that?

I believe it because there is overwhelming evidence and argument that supports the conclusion that the bible was used to justify slavery, even in recent history.
Southern slaveholders often used biblical passages to justify slavery. Defenders of slavery noted that in the Bible, Abraham had slaves. They point to the Ten Commandments, noting that "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, ... nor his manservant, nor his maidservant." In the New Testament, Paul returned a runaway slave, Philemon, to his master, and, although slavery was widespread throughout the Roman world, Jesus never spoke out against it. Defenders of slavery argued that the institution was divine, and that it brought Christianity to the heathen from across the ocean. Slavery was, according to this argument, a good thing for the enslaved. John C. Calhoun said, "Never before has the black race of Central Africa, from the dawn of history to the present day, attained a condition so civilized and so improved, not only physically, but morally and intellectually."
http://www.ushistory.org...
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Wallstreetatheist
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2/14/2013 7:12:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 2:29:32 PM, slo1 wrote:
So what does that mean? If I am a slave I should be the best slave I can be? High quality living advice there.

Exactly, don't try to rebel or escape the immoral institution of human ownership. Simply be content being a slave and be the most obedient and productive slave for your owners. Oh, how I wish our government was based on the morality in the Bible.
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Wallstreetatheist
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2/14/2013 7:13:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 4:22:23 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
That's a nice signature you've got there.

Only the best for my sig.
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annanicole
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2/14/2013 7:21:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"John C. Calhoun said, "Never before has the black race of Central Africa, from the dawn of history to the present day, attained a condition so civilized and so improved, not only physically, but morally and intellectually."

Ironically, that's probably true. Another irony is that the descendants of African slaves were in most cases morally and intellectually far improved when compared to the descendants of the victorious African tribes who sold their conquests to the slave traders - and thus remained in Africa. I'd guess that the typical slave descendent in America is far and away better off than the typical descendent of whichever tribe sold him off. The black race of Africa who remained in Africa had nothing to depend upon for intellectual advancement other than others of the black race. You can guess how well that would work.
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muzebreak
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2/14/2013 7:26:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 7:21:38 PM, annanicole wrote:
"John C. Calhoun said, "Never before has the black race of Central Africa, from the dawn of history to the present day, attained a condition so civilized and so improved, not only physically, but morally and intellectually."

Ironically, that's probably true. Another irony is that the descendants of African slaves were in most cases morally and intellectually far improved when compared to the descendants of the victorious African tribes who sold their conquests to the slave traders - and thus remained in Africa. I'd guess that the typical slave descendent in America is far and away better off than the typical descendent of whichever tribe sold him off. The black race of Africa who remained in Africa had nothing to depend upon for intellectual advancement other than others of the black race. You can guess how well that would work.

I dunno about you, but if I had the choice between being educated and a slave, or being uneducated and free, I would choose the second one in a heart beat.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
1Devilsadvocate
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2/14/2013 7:27:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2013 7:09:54 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 2/14/2013 12:17:57 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 2/14/2013 1:37:56 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
theologically-inspired slavery

You trolling?
Or do you actually believe that?

I believe it because there is overwhelming evidence and argument that supports the conclusion that the bible was used to justify slavery, even in recent history.
Southern slaveholders often used biblical passages to justify slavery. Defenders of slavery noted that in the Bible, Abraham had slaves. They point to the Ten Commandments, noting that "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, ... nor his manservant, nor his maidservant." In the New Testament, Paul returned a runaway slave, Philemon, to his master, and, although slavery was widespread throughout the Roman world, Jesus never spoke out against it. Defenders of slavery argued that the institution was divine, and that it brought Christianity to the heathen from across the ocean. Slavery was, according to this argument, a good thing for the enslaved. John C. Calhoun said, "Never before has the black race of Central Africa, from the dawn of history to the present day, attained a condition so civilized and so improved, not only physically, but morally and intellectually."
http://www.ushistory.org...

Interesting, but does the fact that it was used as an excess mean that it was the source of inspiration?

Come to think of it, is it really plausible to say that the south would have given up slavery, had they not had those verses?

In conclusion just because one hangs his hat on something, does not by any means that they were inspired/encouraged by it.

The same is true for the argument that religion is responsible for war.
Perhaps in some cases it's true, but the vast majority were just excesses for a war that would have taken place anyway.
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