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Creationists, a question for you!

GarretKadeDupre
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2/15/2013 11:39:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
When God created the animals, what did he create?

Did he create a pair of dogs? Or did he create a pair of rottweilers, and a pair of wolves, etc.?

Did he create a pair of each species, or a pair of each genus, or phyla, etc.?

I don't know much about the modern classifications, but at the moment, I think God created a pair from each phyla, and through mutations (call it whatever you want, evolution, natural selection) the species we have today came into being.
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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2/15/2013 11:50:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 11:39:33 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
When God created the animals, what did he create?

Did he create a pair of dogs? Or did he create a pair of rottweilers, and a pair of wolves, etc.?

Did he create a pair of each species, or a pair of each genus, or phyla, etc.?

I don't know much about the modern classifications, but at the moment, I think God created a pair from each phyla, and through mutations (call it whatever you want, evolution, natural selection) the species we have today came into being.

The difference between us, is if we're wrong and meet God, he won't be able to accuse me of insulting his intelligence, his creation and having delusions of insane grandeur at our individual place within the universe.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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2/15/2013 12:32:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If you die and your wrong, you've believed that humans are a big part of the universe, and that the world is superficially complex, without the incredibly processes of universal and biological evolution that, if divinely created, is probably the most advanced, awesome and insanely intelligent way of creating life that it is possible to think of.

Therefore, if your wrong, your essentially insulting gods intelligence and guilty of incredible hubris.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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2/15/2013 12:33:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 11:50:00 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 2/15/2013 11:39:33 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
When God created the animals, what did he create?

Did he create a pair of dogs? Or did he create a pair of rottweilers, and a pair of wolves, etc.?

Did he create a pair of each species, or a pair of each genus, or phyla, etc.?

I don't know much about the modern classifications, but at the moment, I think God created a pair from each phyla, and through mutations (call it whatever you want, evolution, natural selection) the species we have today came into being.

The difference between us, is if we're wrong and meet God, he won't be able to accuse me of insulting his intelligence, his creation and having delusions of insane grandeur at our individual place within the universe.

At 2/15/2013 12:26:48 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
Huh?

He's saying that there is no evidence of that, and so therefore if he meets God, he can't be accused of having delusions of grandeur or making things up that don't make sense or that go against available evidence. Which, I think, is a bit unfair to the question you posed, but I understand from whence the opinion came.

(On a side note: "...the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter"[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36).)
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GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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2/15/2013 12:36:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 12:33:45 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/15/2013 11:50:00 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 2/15/2013 11:39:33 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
When God created the animals, what did he create?

Did he create a pair of dogs? Or did he create a pair of rottweilers, and a pair of wolves, etc.?

Did he create a pair of each species, or a pair of each genus, or phyla, etc.?

I don't know much about the modern classifications, but at the moment, I think God created a pair from each phyla, and through mutations (call it whatever you want, evolution, natural selection) the species we have today came into being.

The difference between us, is if we're wrong and meet God, he won't be able to accuse me of insulting his intelligence, his creation and having delusions of insane grandeur at our individual place within the universe.

At 2/15/2013 12:26:48 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
Huh?

He's saying that there is no evidence of that, and so therefore if he meets God, he can't be accused of having delusions of grandeur or making things up that don't make sense or that go against available evidence. Which, I think, is a bit unfair to the question you posed

Indeed.
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
DudeWithoutTheE
Posts: 53
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2/15/2013 1:01:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well, if you buy into Theistic evolution, which is the position of the Church you worship in, the question becomes meaningless. God Almighty sets in motion a series of events which He knows due to his omniscience will lead to, well, exactly what the most anti-God atheist thinks happened.

If you buy Creationism, it probably just isn't that important. Maybe He created two. More likely, He created different numbers of each, otherwise by the pyramid of biomass all the herbivorous animals would have been eaten, then all the carnivores starved. (This incidentally is a pretty strong objection to the literal truth of the Flood as well).
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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2/15/2013 1:05:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 1:01:52 PM, DudeWithoutTheE wrote:
Well, if you buy into Theistic evolution, which is the position of the Church you worship in,

Since when is Theistic evolution an official position?

Does this mean I can't be a creationist anymore? Sad times.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Heineken
Posts: 1,230
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2/15/2013 1:17:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
There are over 150 registered breeds of dogs. All are results of selective breeding and the vast majority are less than 200 years old.

I'm giving the creationist perspective some concession; 6000 years is plenty of time to evolve variation. There are three different types of elephants. 6000 years is plentiful to achieve that.

Using a domestic breed to negate creationism is silly. It actually helps their case.
Vidi, vici, veni.
(I saw, I conquered, I came.)
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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2/15/2013 2:06:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 1:05:28 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/15/2013 1:01:52 PM, DudeWithoutTheE wrote:
Well, if you buy into Theistic evolution, which is the position of the Church you worship in,

Since when is Theistic evolution an official position?

Does this mean I can't be a creationist anymore? Sad times.

No, it doesn't mean that.
wiploc
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2/15/2013 2:06:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 11:39:33 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
I think God created a pair from each phyla, and through mutations (call it whatever you want, evolution, natural selection) the species we have today came into being.

Why a pair. Why not just one, or 147?
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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2/15/2013 2:14:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 1:01:52 PM, DudeWithoutTheE wrote:
Well, if you buy into Theistic evolution, which is the position of the Church you worship in,

No, my church never officially supported evolution. It merely allows its followers to believe it with conditions.

the question becomes meaningless. God Almighty sets in motion a series of events which He knows due to his omniscience will lead to, well, exactly what the most anti-God atheist thinks happened.

If you buy Creationism, it probably just isn't that important. Maybe He created two. More likely, He created different numbers of each, otherwise by the pyramid of biomass all the herbivorous animals would have been eaten, then all the carnivores starved. (This incidentally is a pretty strong objection to the literal truth of the Flood as well).

You're assuming that carnivores were always carnivores. Maybe some herbivorous became carnivorous after the fall.
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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2/15/2013 3:20:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 2:06:54 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 2/15/2013 11:39:33 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
I think God created a pair from each phyla, and through mutations (call it whatever you want, evolution, natural selection) the species we have today came into being.

Why a pair. Why not just one, or 147?

But of most he made seven...

which has interesting connotations for the sacrilege of a pair.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
medic0506
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2/15/2013 3:23:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 11:39:33 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
When God created the animals, what did he create?

Did he create a pair of dogs? Or did he create a pair of rottweilers, and a pair of wolves, etc.?

There isn't enough detail to be able to know that specifically, to my knowledge.

Did he create a pair of each species, or a pair of each genus, or phyla, etc.?

From what I can tell, He created kinds. Species and other means of classification are man-made attempts at classifying.

I don't know much about the modern classifications, but at the moment, I think God created a pair from each phyla, and through mutations (call it whatever you want, evolution, natural selection) the species we have today came into being.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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2/15/2013 3:29:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 3:23:19 PM, medic0506 wrote:

From what I can tell, He created kinds. Species and other means of classification are man-made attempts at classifying.

What, specifically, is a "kind"?
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GODisreal
Posts: 127
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2/15/2013 4:26:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Before the fall there was no such thing as death. If we look around, we can see that God is a God of variety. We don't know if he made 2, or 20 kinds of an animal. However, we do know that he gave them the ability to variate in sizes shapes and colors, and obviously to multiply. In regards to your first question, no church has a position, because no one knows how many of each kind he made, so your question will never be answered, at least here on earth. And why don't we have an answer for you? Because it simply does not matter. If it did matter, I'm sure it would be in the be in the creation account. Being that this has no relevance to salvation, or any other benefit to a christian lifestyle, I myself don't even care.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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2/15/2013 4:46:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 1:05:28 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/15/2013 1:01:52 PM, DudeWithoutTheE wrote:
Well, if you buy into Theistic evolution, which is the position of the Church you worship in,

Since when is Theistic evolution an official position?

Does this mean I can't be a creationist anymore? Sad times.

I don't want to get into semantics but aren't theistic evolutionists technically creationists? They just are not young earth creationist. I haven't studied the terminology much so I may be way off
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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2/15/2013 4:52:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 4:46:41 PM, stubs wrote:
I don't want to get into semantics but aren't theistic evolutionists technically creationists? They just are not young earth creationist. I haven't studied the terminology much so I may be way off
Yes. I'm a creationist because I believe God created everything - NOT because I deny evolution or other scientific theories.
medic0506
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2/15/2013 5:13:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 3:29:24 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/15/2013 3:23:19 PM, medic0506 wrote:

From what I can tell, He created kinds. Species and other means of classification are man-made attempts at classifying.

What, specifically, is a "kind"?

We don't get a detailed definition, but we know it includes that which can bring forth.
GarretKadeDupre
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2/15/2013 6:39:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 5:13:04 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 2/15/2013 3:29:24 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/15/2013 3:23:19 PM, medic0506 wrote:

From what I can tell, He created kinds. Species and other means of classification are man-made attempts at classifying.

What, specifically, is a "kind"?

We don't get a detailed definition, but we know it includes that which can bring forth.

That's dumb.

Everyone knows God created 'kinds.' What I made this ENTIRE thread about is to find out exactly what the definition of 'kind' is!

If you wanna be an aszhole and be like "well we can't ever know for sure" then GTFO of my thread.
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
DakotaKrafick
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2/16/2013 1:06:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 6:39:09 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/15/2013 5:13:04 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 2/15/2013 3:29:24 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/15/2013 3:23:19 PM, medic0506 wrote:

From what I can tell, He created kinds. Species and other means of classification are man-made attempts at classifying.

What, specifically, is a "kind"?

We don't get a detailed definition, but we know it includes that which can bring forth.

That's dumb.

Everyone knows God created 'kinds.' What I made this ENTIRE thread about is to find out exactly what the definition of 'kind' is!

If you wanna be an aszhole and be like "well we can't ever know for sure" then GTFO of my thread.

Well, the overall tone of this thread certainly took a sudden turn.
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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2/16/2013 1:08:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Its pis*sing off when people come into your thread to basically call your question stupid or say it can't be answered.
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
GODisreal
Posts: 127
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2/16/2013 2:49:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 1:08:09 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
Its pis*sing off when people come into your thread to basically call your question stupid or say it can't be answered.

Yo bro what you want me to do, lie? I ain't saying its stupid. No one can answer it cause we don't know. No matter how hard or how much you piss, or get pissed, the truth is the truth.
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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2/16/2013 12:19:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 2:49:46 AM, GODisreal wrote:
At 2/16/2013 1:08:09 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
Its pis*sing off when people come into your thread to basically call your question stupid or say it can't be answered.

Yo bro what you want me to do, lie? I ain't saying its stupid. No one can answer it cause we don't know. No matter how hard or how much you piss, or get pissed, the truth is the truth.

Of course we can't know, and we can't know for sure if God talked to Moses in a man's voice or a woman's voice, but that doesn't mean we can't speculate given the evidence we have.
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
medic0506
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2/16/2013 12:34:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 6:39:09 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/15/2013 5:13:04 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 2/15/2013 3:29:24 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/15/2013 3:23:19 PM, medic0506 wrote:

From what I can tell, He created kinds. Species and other means of classification are man-made attempts at classifying.

What, specifically, is a "kind"?

We don't get a detailed definition, but we know it includes that which can bring forth.

That's dumb.

Everyone knows God created 'kinds.' What I made this ENTIRE thread about is to find out exactly what the definition of 'kind' is!

If you wanna be an aszhole and be like "well we can't ever know for sure" then GTFO of my thread.

lol...Blade asked me a question and I answered it as best as I can.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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2/16/2013 12:51:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 11:39:33 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
I don't know much about the modern classifications, but at the moment, I think God created a pair from each phyla, and through mutations (call it whatever you want, evolution, natural selection) the species we have today came into being.

You do realize that creating a pair from each phyla (I prefer division. Botanist quibble) would mean that your deity created only one pair of flowering plants, only one type of chordate, only one type of club fungus, only one type of fern, etc. etc. Looking at the fossil record, this position seems incredibly difficult to defend. Not to mention the fact that humans and apes would still share a common ancestor, an observance which much of creationism seems centered around denying.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
GarretKadeDupre
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2/16/2013 12:54:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 12:51:40 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/15/2013 11:39:33 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
I don't know much about the modern classifications, but at the moment, I think God created a pair from each phyla, and through mutations (call it whatever you want, evolution, natural selection) the species we have today came into being.

You do realize that creating a pair from each phyla (I prefer division. Botanist quibble) would mean that your deity created only one pair of flowering plants, only one type of chordate, only one type of club fungus, only one type of fern, etc. etc. Looking at the fossil record, this position seems incredibly difficult to defend. Not to mention the fact that humans and apes would still share a common ancestor, an observance which much of creationism seems centered around denying.

Ah, what about family then?
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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2/16/2013 12:56:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 3:23:19 PM, medic0506 wrote:
From what I can tell, He created kinds. Species and other means of classification are man-made attempts at classifying.

As far as I can tell "Kind" is a man-made classification as well, simply a more vague and archaic one.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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2/16/2013 1:00:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 12:56:30 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 2/15/2013 3:23:19 PM, medic0506 wrote:
From what I can tell, He created kinds. Species and other means of classification are man-made attempts at classifying.

As far as I can tell "Kind" is a man-made classification as well, simply a more vague and archaic one.

ok
GarretKadeDupre
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2/16/2013 1:03:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 12:56:30 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 2/15/2013 3:23:19 PM, medic0506 wrote:
From what I can tell, He created kinds. Species and other means of classification are man-made attempts at classifying.

As far as I can tell "Kind" is a man-made classification as well, simply a more vague and archaic one.

Obviously, but I want to know what 'kind' would be by today's standards.

Oh look, I found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Apparently, cattle, owls, ravens, and hawks are 'kinds.' So how are these classified today? Is owls a genus? A family?
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...