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Morally sufficent reason

Illegalcombatant
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2/16/2013 4:22:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
When "evil" is used as an argument against God existence, especially a supernatural person who is all powerful, all knowing, all good, the tri omi God, a common if not main counter is to invoke that God has sufficient moral reason for allowing what ever "evil" that is bought up to happen.

Now consider this scenario, a person has kidnapped a baby or child and confines them to some underground basement. The kidnapper tortures and rapes the child over a period of years. Most people around here I am sure can recall such things happening in their lifetime, for added horror ask yourself how many more children/people have being kidnapped and are being held to be raped and tortured that we don't know about.

Never the less every now and then one of theses stories comes to light and of course makes front page news for a while. Now imagine if such a kidnapper when caught says, yes I did kidnap that child and torture them, and guess what your going to let me go and your going to let me do it again. Of course people would probably ask why the hell would we do that ? the kidnapper responds, well think about it, God exists, yet God allowed me to do it, as such God must have a morally sufficient reason for allowing me to do it. So my good christian brother and sisters be on your way, take off these hand cuffs and let me get back to kidnapping and rapeing children, all allowed cause God has morally sufficient reason for allowing this to happen, if he didn't have a morally sufficient reason for allowing me to rape and torture children he wouldn't allow it now would he ?

The vast bulk if not all christians would not give a rats a$$ about his arguments about God allowing this to happen cause of "moral sufficient reason" and wouldn't feel compelled one bit based on this piece of brilliant logic to allow the kiddy torturer and rapist loose.

I can only assume that christians and non believers would call horsesh*t on this rapists arguments here, I ain't letting that kiddy rapist loose, yet that same christian also thinks the non believers should believe in the existence of such a tri omi God who allows such things to happen like the kidnap and rape of children cause God has morally sufficient reasons for allowing it.

Some non believers are calling horsesh*t on that one too. Do you think maybe, just maybe they might be unto something here ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
GODisreal
Posts: 127
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2/16/2013 4:32:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
It's not that that Jesus has a "morally sufficient reason," it just that He made free will. God could come down and obligate us to worship him and control our decisions, but he left it to our choice to do what we want. To follow him, or visa versa. Rapists have free will, and so do you and me, however, there are consequences. It isn't any karma crap, but basically we have free will, and that guy chose to be a rapist. He will suffer the consequences.
Illegalcombatant
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2/16/2013 4:38:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 4:32:27 AM, GODisreal wrote:
It's not that that Jesus has a "morally sufficient reason," it just that He made free will. God could come down and obligate us to worship him and control our decisions, but he left it to our choice to do what we want. To follow him, or visa versa. Rapists have free will, and so do you and me, however, there are consequences. It isn't any karma crap, but basically we have free will, and that guy chose to be a rapist. He will suffer the consequences.

If you really must invoke the free will defense........

This raises the question, why does God value the free will of the rapist to rape the child......over and over and over again, over the free will of the child to NOT be raped.........over and over again.

So once again, non believers will call horsh*t on this one. Now what ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
GODisreal
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2/16/2013 4:46:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
If the child is getting raped, over and over, than obviously its something he does want, and has no control over it, hints it being referred to as rape, not sex only. Bad things happen.
Illegalcombatant
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2/16/2013 4:52:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 4:46:33 AM, GODisreal wrote:
If the child is getting raped, over and over, than obviously its something he does want, and has no control over it, hints it being referred to as rape, not sex only. Bad things happen.

Your talking, but your not really engaging with the points I am bringing up.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
GODisreal
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2/16/2013 4:56:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well you trying to get to the point in which you can say that God is evil, and that he cares more about rapists than helpless children. Bring up a point then, like a statement or something.
Illegalcombatant
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2/16/2013 5:03:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 4:58:05 AM, GODisreal wrote:
God does not chose between the free wills of both. That's why it is free will, cause god does not intervene.

God doesn't get off the hook here, cause an all powerful being has to "allow" something to happen in order for it to happen.

If God doesn't allow the rapist to rape the child, it can't happen. What this means is that God is making a decision, do I or do I not allow this to happen ? and when people question why God allows such and such to happen hence the God has morally sufficent reason for allowing it to happen.

Which brings me back to my first point about the rapist who demands to be let loose again, and the free will defense demands that such a being allow the will of the rapist to over ride the will of child not to be raped.

Yes people do believe this is what is going on, some people after giving much thought conclude its HORSESH*T.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
GODisreal
Posts: 127
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2/16/2013 5:15:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 5:03:54 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/16/2013 4:58:05 AM, GODisreal wrote:
God does not chose between the free wills of both. That's why it is free will, cause god does not intervene.

God doesn't get off the hook here, cause an all powerful being has to "allow" something to happen in order for it to happen.

God was never on the hook. Because he allows,free will, he does not intervene, so he allows things to happen. That's one of these wants us to follow him. If everybody followed him, there would be no rapists.

If God doesn't allow the rapist to rape the child, it can't happen. What this means is that God is making a decision, do I or do I not allow this to happen ? and when people question why God allows such and such to happen hence the God has morally sufficent reason for allowing it to happen.

God has made the decision to say, he will have free will to do whatever he wants. However, this does not mean there will be no consequences.

Which brings me back to my first point about the rapist who demands to be let loose again, and the free will defense demands that such a being allow the will of the rapist to over ride the will of child not to be raped.

This brings me back to free will, but with consequences. He has to pay for his consequences. He can demand as much as he wants, but he had free will, and he chose to do bad things. Comprende?

Yes people do believe this is what is going on, some people after giving much thought conclude its HORSESH*T.
Ramshutu
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2/16/2013 6:23:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
God makes the rules and knows what is going to happen.

We may have free will, but God knows how and in what ways people are going to use it. In his design for that, it is logically incoherent if god is all knowing and all powerful to state he did not explicitly approved or allowed the concept rape as an acceptable consequence of free will.

Now, you can argue that perpetrators have free will and this is not gods fault; but what is not free will, and absolutely under gods control is how emotionally scarring sucindorse does crimes are to the victim.

I can beleive in the necessity of free will in a universe, but I cannot accept that the way the world works in terms of free will, consequences, suffering and evil, is the most optimal arrangement. I can think of a million different organisations of the world that has free will, mans inhumanity towards man, but minimises unnecessary suffering.
matt.mcguire88
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2/16/2013 7:11:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
God does not have "morally sufficent reasons" to allow rape lol. He does NOT allow sin period. I don't recall God allowing us to sin in His word? God is plain and clear about sin. Evil is the result of SIN not God. Sin is a by-product of being able to choose, and anything we choose to do against God's word and instruction is sin. God is not evil, OUR choices our evil

Do you understand the reality of a hell? That is where naughty humans go that avoid the perfect will of God in their lives and feed their flesh. No, it is not the will of God that a child be raped! Neither is it God's choice, what's wrong with you? God does NOT allow His creation to sin or commit evil, that is why we have the COMMANDMENTS and His INSTRUCTIONS to obey lol. God has no "control" over our choices, that is why they are FREE. That is the consequence of being able to decide and make choices, there is no negotiation or middle ground. And with such freedom and with such ability and potential to cause harm, also comes with a warning.

This is why in many cases, God is detested with man and his actions. You're right, God does have to look at our scum. Not only does He have to look at it, but then He gets blamed for it! God can change, heal and direct a person in any given moment if they seek Him and follow after His ways rather than their own sinful ways, but we still choose sin. We can choose to obey God, or reject Him. Nomatter what God does, we still sin. If God inervenes and destroys evil and punishes sin, everybody gets mad and cries about how evil God is. If God allows us to make our own choices and be left alone, people blame God for neglect. There is no "free-will/ partial free-will", there is free will. That is the seriousness of what God has given us and why God is so serious about sin, He hates it and does not allow it. If you choose evil you shall surely die.

"We do not fight against flesh and blood" and our flesh is at war with our spirit. We can abide under God and follow His ways, or we can live in our sin and follow sinful ways. We can have the Spirit of God within us to convict, teach and guide us to avoid sin at all costs, or we can choose to live in darkness or cause pain and suffering to whoever we want, and do whatever we choose, but the penalty is just as severe. If we cause harm or pain to another, we inevitably cause harm to ourselves and we will get our judgement. The penalty for sin is great and God does not tolerate it one bit. Look at what lengths God goes to to redeem us from our own sin and evil. Christ took all the weight of sin and the consequences of our actions on Himself, that we could be purified and clean in the presents of a Mighty and Holy God without blemish, but instead people choose to consume their own desires and their own stinking sin.

DO NOT forget about the redeeming factors of God and the healing power that is available. There is a well to drink from, there is a vine to grow in and a harvest from seed. Yes, humans possess the ability to cause harm and pain to another, but God has the power to redeem such loss. A person may choose to take a life or murder someone, but God has the soul and the spirit. We can destroy flesh, but only God can destroy the soul. We may have the abilty to destroy a life, but God has the ability to change a life. Men can cause death, but God causes life and in Him is life.

God has changed and healed so many areas and wounds in my life I simply loose track of them lol. God is good and not evil. He is the way, the truth and the life and He will guide anyones steps who chooses it. God is life but sin leads to death.
Rational_Thinker9119
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2/16/2013 8:03:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Thank goodness our society doesn't think like God if he exists. I thank my lucky stars the police are there to prevent and take the free will away from people who commit horrific crimes. If we were all like God and just gave evil people the will to do what they wanted, this planet would be a hell hole.
Rational_Thinker9119
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2/16/2013 8:05:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
If I knew a man was going to kill a baby, I wouldn't give him free will if I had the power. If God gives people free will knowing in advance they will do something horrific, he is just as sick as the person committing the crime.
HmblySkTrth
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2/16/2013 9:17:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I am mystified how anyone can accept it.

1. God knew most would reject, and end up in eternal hell. God also knew some would be very cruel to others, and cause unspeakable problems.
2. God chose to continue with his "perfect plan" for humanity.

These tenets alone are enough to make God an absolute monster, yet people still love God.

People's attempts to justify it are always found wanting. Among the common responses are:

A. NOT EVEN ATTEMPT TO GIVE AN ANSWER
We cannot question God.
We do not have the infinite wisdom to understand God's ways.
God works in mysterious ways. This is all part of God's will.
We must trust God and have faith.

B. CHANGING SUBJECT
Repeatedly talking about how humans are the ones who do evil. While humans make errors, they would not be able to make them if God had not chosen to create us in the first place. No matter how many times we point this out, they keep changing back to human responsibility.

And the bad choice by someone does not only affect that person, but others as well. Criminals choose to be criminals, but victims do not choose to be victims!

And some humans are totally incapable of doing right. True sociopaths have no conscience or compassion at all. They cannot do what is right. They should not be created in the first place to cause grief to others, and should be done away with once they choose evil so they do not continue to harm others. And they should not be tortured endlessly because of their lack of morals. When a violent dog kills a child, the dog is put to sleep in a merciful manner. Yet according to many, God tortures people endlessly for the flaws that God created them with in the first place.

C. PREACHING
Rather than even address the issue at all, they preach about God's love and the threat of hell if we don"t follow God's laws. Yes, it would be amusing if it weren't so sad. Preaching about how loving God is, while in the same breath saying God will torture you endlessly if you don"t believe.

None of these are legitimate responses to the problems presented in this forum. If there is a legitimate justification for God's actions, I would like to hear it. But after much research on this very subject, I have found nothing.
matt.mcguire88
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2/16/2013 10:15:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 9:17:50 AM, HmblySkTrth wrote:
I am mystified how anyone can accept it.

1. God knew most would reject, and end up in eternal hell. God also knew some would be very cruel to others, and cause unspeakable problems.
2. God chose to continue with his "perfect plan" for humanity.

These tenets alone are enough to make God an absolute monster, yet people still love God.

People love God because of the impact that He has on their life, not because they give over to endless hypoyheticals. Your view of life and reality are only your opinion. Not everyone has the same confusion as you.

People's attempts to justify it are always found wanting. Among the common responses are:

A. NOT EVEN ATTEMPT TO GIVE AN ANSWER
We cannot question God.
We do not have the infinite wisdom to understand God's ways.
God works in mysterious ways. This is all part of God's will.
We must trust God and have faith.

Who said any of this? I didn't.

B. CHANGING SUBJECT
Repeatedly talking about how humans are the ones who do evil. While humans make errors, they would not be able to make them if God had not chosen to create us in the first place. No matter how many times we point this out, they keep changing back to human responsibility.

No, changing the subject would be diverting responsibilty of MANS actions to God. To blame God for the results of our sin is taking away OUR responsibilties for our choice. And nomatter how many times we point this out, you keep changing it back to God's responsibility. Are you saying that God should have never created because some people will choose to do evil, rather than good? Speak for yourself.

And the bad choice by someone does not only affect that person, but others as well. Criminals choose to be criminals, but victims do not choose to be victims!

That is absolutely true. That is why God is so serious about our choices and what kind of life we lead. That is why we are to love and treat others as ourselves. LOVE, we are to LOVE.

And some humans are totally incapable of doing right. True sociopaths have no conscience or compassion at all. They cannot do what is right. They should not be created in the first place to cause grief to others, and should be done away with once they choose evil so they do not continue to harm others. And they should not be tortured endlessly because of their lack of morals. When a violent dog kills a child, the dog is put to sleep in a merciful manner. Yet according to many, God tortures people endlessly for the flaws that God created them with in the first place.

The first part of this is just hypothetical and is not completely true. Not everyone who murders, rapes, robs or commits horrible crimes had no choice in the matter, or is just "nuts". People give over to sin and evil thoughts well before they decide to do them. Some are even thought out and planned. Sin begins at the heart until it has materialized into the physical. Some people had every oppurtunity to turn away and to give their weakness and sin to God but chose the sin instead, and evil was disbursed.
Regardless of "what" hell is, it is a punishment and a result of sin, abusing and causing pain to other people. Are you saying that some person, who preplanned and rejected God in their heart and methodically tortured a child should be simply put to sleep? That they have no accountability and price for the horrifying action/s they committed? All the pain and suffering that came from the hands of another should just simply vanish with no retribution? I don't know exactly "what" hell is and may never, but I know that God is not mocked, what a man sows he will reap.

C. PREACHING
Rather than even address the issue at all, they preach about God's love and the threat of hell if we don"t follow God's laws. Yes, it would be amusing if it weren't so sad. Preaching about how loving God is, while in the same breath saying God will torture you endlessly if you don"t believe.

What is wrong with preaching? Sharing the good news of God in our lives? If God had no impact on my life, and if I didn't know that God was love, I might be bitter and confused as well. What good does it do to share about God if it didn't make any difference. How could I say God is love if I didn't know it to be true? I don't know what God does to criminals in eternity, but I do know God is love.

None of these are legitimate responses to the problems presented in this forum. If there is a legitimate justification for God's actions, I would like to hear it. But after much research on this very subject, I have found nothing.

Saying that God should not have created because humans have potential to cause harm is not a ligitimate response as well. That is a very narrow view if I have ever heard one.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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2/16/2013 1:36:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Firs off, you're asking theists to give you the specific reasons for allowing evils like rape to occur? There is no way we could possibly answer that question satisfactorily.

However, there are quite a few examples of why God would allow this; not saying this is deffinate though.

Let take the scenario you just mentioned, God allows some pedophile, to abduct a child and perform atrocious evils to him; rape, torture, etc.

This child is rescued, and is driving by his/her experience to become a powerfull voice to those who've been through similar. This boy/girl grows to be heard, and influences all the right people to do things to help prevent such things from happening again (as much as possible), and console those who've been raped/abused/tortured.

Say this boy/girl doesn't do all of that, but instead is psychologically inclined to be a much different person, and as a result is a very wise parent, friend, neighbor, etc.

There are so many different things that could bring good from the evil that that child experienced. Maybe, one of the officers/people who rescured him/her will be so touched by the condition they found the child, or the things that were done to him/her, that they take upon themselve to pursue cases of that type, or to be more active in the lives of those who are at risk.

In regards to the rapist comments about his actions being the will of God, therefore release him, are rediculous, because if he was caught and persecuted THAT was clearly the will of God as well.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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2/16/2013 2:14:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 7:11:10 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
God does not have "morally sufficent reasons" to allow rape lol. He does NOT allow sin period.

Lol, uh, if god doesn't allow sin, then why is there sin? Do you not believe God is in control, or that he isn't the Sovereign King he claims to be?

27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

I don't recall God allowing us to sin in His word? God is plain and clear about sin. Evil is the result of SIN not God. Sin is a by-product of being able to choose, and anything we choose to do against God's word and instruction is sin. God is not evil, OUR choices our evil

Well it's there plenty. While God did not create sin, he deffinately allowed it to happen, as a part of HIS purpose in HIS creation for HIS good so that HE may be glorified.

Every desire of our heart is evil, and every choice we make, from the heart, are sinful. So yes, we choose to do evil, because that is all we desire to do. (Rom 3:10-12, Jer. 17:9, Matt. 15:19[Mark 7:21], Gen. 6:5)

Do you understand the reality of a hell? That is where naughty humans go that avoid the perfect will of God in their lives and feed their flesh. No, it is not the will of God that a child be raped! Neither is it God's choice, what's wrong with you? God does NOT allow His creation to sin or commit evil, that is why we have the COMMANDMENTS and His INSTRUCTIONS to obey lol.

But sin occurs, therefore God allows it, otherwise he is a weak God, who cannot control his creation. Referring to the scripture above, and Romans 7, the LAW was not instructions, but a revelation of SIN. By the law we recognize how sinful we really are, not what we need to do to become unsinful; this is impossible as our sinful hearts are beyond cure. We must be put to death, and be reborn in Christ. Anew.

God has no "control" over our choices, that is why they are FREE. That is the consequence of being able to decide and make choices, there is no negotiation or middle ground. And with such freedom and with such ability and potential to cause harm, also comes with a warning.

Really? Let me refresh your memory a bit---

John 15:16
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit"fruit that will last"and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

Eph. 2:1-10
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions"it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God"s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Romans 9:14-16
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God"s mercy.


I know that's a lot to read, but it's pretty clear that God determines everything that happens, and that we only choose the desires of our hearts. No one chooses God, so God in his love, chooses whom will have faith; unless you believe the reason you 'chose' God was because you are more righteous then other sinners?

Romans 12:3
3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

This is why in many cases, God is detested with man and his actions. You're right, God does have to look at our scum. Not only does He have to look at it, but then He gets blamed for it! God can change, heal and direct a person in any given moment if they seek Him and follow after His ways rather than their own sinful ways, but we still choose sin.

So, we actually save ourselves? If God only save those who choose him, then are we not choosing to be saved? What work of God is this? Further more, if we still choose sin, then why is anyone saved, and where does anyone get faith?

We can choose to obey God, or reject Him. Nomatter what God does, we still sin.

No, we can't. We can be chosen by God, or rejected by God. BEACUSE all we do is sin. Even the works we think are good are contaminated by sin---

Prov. 16:2
2 All a person"s ways seem pure to them,
but motives are weighed by the Lord.


If God inervenes and destroys evil and punishes sin, everybody gets mad and cries about how evil God is. If God allows us to make our own choices and be left alone, people blame God for neglect.

Agreed.

There is no "free-will/ partial free-will", there is free will. That is the seriousness of what God has given us and why God is so serious about sin, He hates it and does not allow it. If you choose evil you shall surely die.

No, there is just the will, there is no free. We have the will to sin, and only sin, until God removes our hearts of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. God does this. How can a corpse (dead in transgression), choose to partake of a feast (the spirit of truth), unless brought to life?

Free-will is a lie, and it has no place in the gospel.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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2/16/2013 3:25:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 2:14:02 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 2/16/2013 7:11:10 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
God does not have "morally sufficent reasons" to allow rape lol. He does NOT allow sin period.

Lol, uh, if god doesn't allow sin, then why is there sin? Do you not believe God is in control, or that he isn't the Sovereign King he claims to be?
Sin is there because it is a result of choice, sin is going against God
You believe that God can't be a "sovereign" King without "controlling" and "predestinating" every little action and "allowing" evil to inflict another for some purpose or lesson. Those are your words not mine. God IS Sovereign, don't try and trap me with words I never said. You don't believe God can be soveriegn without permitting evil and atrocious acts to befall the innocent, that's a shame.

27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

Why do you want to assert that God "predestinating", means that God predestinates every evil action or permits a rapist to attack a girl??? Of course God predestinates.

I don't recall God allowing us to sin in His word? God is plain and clear about sin. Evil is the result of SIN not God. Sin is a by-product of being able to choose, and anything we choose to do against God's word and instruction is sin. God is not evil, OUR choices our evil

Well it's there plenty. While God did not create sin, he deffinately allowed it to happen, as a part of HIS purpose in HIS creation for HIS good so that HE may be glorified.

God did not create sin, correct. NO, god does not ALLOW sin. God did not "allow" a child to be raped or tortured, that person will pay for their sin and the sin they caused the other. God does not tolerate sin and evil and He will deal with them accordingly. If God uses rape for His good plans, then what does He need the Holy Spirit for, what does He need His word for, and why would we need instructions and commandments? How could we ever prosecute a criminal if everything is purposed by God, or just to "glorify" Himself? To say that God would use child abuse to glorify Himself is just sick.

Every desire of our heart is evil, and every choice we make, from the heart, are sinful. So yes, we choose to do evil, because that is all we desire to do. (Rom 3:10-12, Jer. 17:9, Matt. 15:19[Mark 7:21], Gen. 6:5)

Who is disputing that? That is why we NEED the Lord, and to be filled with God so that we have not evil desires.

Do you understand the reality of a hell? That is where naughty humans go that avoid the perfect will of God in their lives and feed their flesh. No, it is not the will of God that a child be raped! Neither is it God's choice, what's wrong with you? God does NOT allow His creation to sin or commit evil, that is why we have the COMMANDMENTS and His INSTRUCTIONS to obey lol.

But sin occurs, therefore God allows it, otherwise he is a weak God, who cannot control his creation. Referring to the scripture above, and Romans 7, the LAW was not instructions, but a revelation of SIN. By the law we recognize how sinful we really are, not what we need to do to become unsinful; this is impossible as our sinful hearts are beyond cure. We must be put to death, and be reborn in Christ. Anew.

God has no "control" over our choices, that is why they are FREE. That is the consequence of being able to decide and make choices, there is no negotiation or middle ground. And with such freedom and with such ability and potential to cause harm, also comes with a warning.

Really? Let me refresh your memory a bit---

John 15:16
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit"fruit that will last"and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

Eph. 2:1-10
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions"it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God"s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Romans 9:14-16
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God"s mercy.


I know that's a lot to read, but it's pretty clear that God determines everything that happens, and that we only choose the desires of our hearts. No one chooses God, so God in his love, chooses whom will have faith; unless you believe the reason you 'chose' God was because you are more righteous then other sinners?

Romans 12:3
3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.


This is why in many cases, God is detested with man and his actions. You're right, God does have to look at our scum. Not only does He have to look at it, but then He gets blamed for it! God can change, heal and direct a person in any given moment if they seek Him and follow after His ways rather than their own sinful ways, but we still choose sin.

So, we actually save ourselves? If God only save those who choose him, then are we not choosing to be saved? What work of God is this? Further more, if we still choose sin, then why is anyone saved, and where does anyone get faith?

We can choose to obey God, or reject Him. Nomatter what God does, we still sin.

No, we can't. We can be chosen by God, or rejected by God. BEACUSE all we do is sin. Even the works we think are good are contaminated by sin---

Prov. 16:2
2 All a person"s ways seem pure to them,
but motives are weighed by the Lord.


If God inervenes and destroys evil and punishes sin, everybody gets mad and cries about how evil God is. If God allows us to make our own choices and be left alone, people blame God for neglect.

Agreed.

There is no "free-will/ partial free-will", there is free will. That is the seriousness of what God has given us and why God is so serious about sin, He hates it and does not allow it. If you choose evil you shall surely die.

No, there is just the will, there is no free. We have the will to sin, and only sin, until God removes our hearts of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. God does this. How can a corpse (dead in transgression), choose to partak
matt.mcguire88
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2/16/2013 3:43:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 2:14:02 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 2/16/2013 7:11:10 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
God does not have "morally sufficent reasons" to allow rape lol. He does NOT allow sin period.

Lol, uh, if god doesn't allow sin, then why is there sin? Do you not believe God is in control, or that he isn't the Sovereign King he claims to be?

27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.


I don't recall God allowing us to sin in His word? God is plain and clear about sin. Evil is the result of SIN not God. Sin is a by-product of being able to choose, and anything we choose to do against God's word and instruction is sin. God is not evil, OUR choices our evil

Well it's there plenty. While God did not create sin, he deffinately allowed it to happen, as a part of HIS purpose in HIS creation for HIS good so that HE may be glorified.

Every desire of our heart is evil, and every choice we make, from the heart, are sinful. So yes, we choose to do evil, because that is all we desire to do. (Rom 3:10-12, Jer. 17:9, Matt. 15:19[Mark 7:21], Gen. 6:5)

Do you understand the reality of a hell? That is where naughty humans go that avoid the perfect will of God in their lives and feed their flesh. No, it is not the will of God that a child be raped! Neither is it God's choice, what's wrong with you? God does NOT allow His creation to sin or commit evil, that is why we have the COMMANDMENTS and His INSTRUCTIONS to obey lol.

But sin occurs, therefore God allows it, otherwise he is a weak God, who cannot control his creation. Referring to the scripture above, and Romans 7, the LAW was not instructions, but a revelation of SIN. By the law we recognize how sinful we really are, not what we need to do to become unsinful; this is impossible as our sinful hearts are beyond cure. We must be put to death, and be reborn in Christ. Anew.
Amen, we MUST be put to death and be reborn. No He is not a weak God, we are weak people, that is why we need to be reborn in Christ.

God has no "control" over our choices, that is why they are FREE. That is the consequence of being able to decide and make choices, there is no negotiation or middle ground. And with such freedom and with such ability and potential to cause harm, also comes with a warning.

Really? Let me refresh your memory a bit---

John 15:16
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit"fruit that will last"and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
Eph. 2:1-10
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions"it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God"s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Romans 9:14-16
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God"s mercy.


I know that's a lot to read, but it's pretty clear that God determines everything that happens, and that we only choose the desires of our hearts. No one chooses God, so God in his love, chooses whom will have faith; unless you believe the reason you 'chose' God was because you are more righteous then other sinners?

Romans 12:3
3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.


This is why in many cases, God is detested with man and his actions. You're right, God does have to look at our scum. Not only does He have to look at it, but then He gets blamed for it! God can change, heal and direct a person in any given moment if they seek Him and follow after His ways rather than their own sinful ways, but we still choose sin.

So, we actually save ourselves? If God only save those who choose him, then are we not choosing to be saved? What work of God is this? Further more, if we still choose sin, then why is anyone saved, and where does anyone get faith?


Woe woe woe, all of this is putting words in my mouth again. When did I say we save ourselves?. Salvation IS a FREE gift, we are not talking about earning salvation but making good or bad choices and how they affect other people.

We can choose to obey God, or reject Him. Nomatter what God does, we still sin.

No, we can't. We can be chosen by God, or rejected by God. BEACUSE all we do is sin. Even the works we think are good are contaminated by sin---

Yes we can, we are not robots or puppets, we can choose to obey God. I can choose to listen to God or listen to my flesh. It doesn't matter that all we do is sin, we still need to pursue God and His righteousness. Nobody is saying anything about "works" leading to salvation.

Prov. 16:2
2 All a person"s ways seem pure to them,
but motives are weighed by the Lord.


??

If God inervenes and destroys evil and punishes sin, everybody gets mad and cries about how evil God is. If God allows us to make our own choices and be left alone, people blame God for neglect.

Agreed.

There is no "free-will/ partial free-will", there is free will. That is the seriousness of what God has given us and why God is so serious about sin, He hates it and does not allow it. If you choose evil you shall surely die.

No, there is just the will, there is no free. We have the will to sin, and only sin, until God removes our hearts of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. God does this. How can a corpse (dead in transgression), choose to partake of a feast (the spirit of truth), unless brought to life?

I could post a bunch of sriptures that talk about how God wants us to live right and be filled with the Spirit and FOLLOW after His ways rather than our flesh but it would be a waste of time because religious people become too ridgid in their doctrines and laws that it wouldn't matter what scriptures I post lol.

Free-will is a lie, and it has no place in the gospel.

Our view of "free will" and "predestination" are quite different. This sentence above speaks volumes of your resolve.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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2/16/2013 5:07:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 7:11:10 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
God does not have "morally sufficent reasons" to allow rape lol. He does NOT allow sin period. I don't recall God allowing us to sin in His word? God is plain and clear about sin. Evil is the result of SIN not God. Sin is a by-product of being able to choose, and anything we choose to do against God's word and instruction is sin. God is not evil, OUR choices our evil


I think you are confused, you are confused that "God allows" = "God wants".

So how about you understand what is actually being understood instead and reply to what is being said eh ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Illegalcombatant
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2/16/2013 5:16:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 1:36:53 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Firs off, you're asking theists to give you the specific reasons for allowing evils like rape to occur? There is no way we could possibly answer that question satisfactorily.

However, there are quite a few examples of why God would allow this; not saying this is deffinate though.

Let take the scenario you just mentioned, God allows some pedophile, to abduct a child and perform atrocious evils to him; rape, torture, etc.

This child is rescued, and is driving by his/her experience to become a powerfull voice to those who've been through similar. This boy/girl grows to be heard, and influences all the right people to do things to help prevent such things from happening again (as much as possible), and console those who've been raped/abused/tortured.

Say this boy/girl doesn't do all of that, but instead is psychologically inclined to be a much different person, and as a result is a very wise parent, friend, neighbor, etc.

There are so many different things that could bring good from the evil that that child experienced. Maybe, one of the officers/people who rescured him/her will be so touched by the condition they found the child, or the things that were done to him/her, that they take upon themselve to pursue cases of that type, or to be more active in the lives of those who are at risk.

In regards to the rapist comments about his actions being the will of God, therefore release him, are rediculous, because if he was caught and persecuted THAT was clearly the will of God as well.

Starwman, im getting real sick of people not really reading what I said. I think you know what I am saying, don't want to deal with it, so change what I am saying.

See I kinda new this was coming, people aren't really paying attention to what is said, as soon as they hear God, child rape, evil they default to their favorite logical compatibility answer.

Your answer about how God allows the child to be abducted, raped, tortured cause some good might come out of it, great, that's exactly the answer the child rapist can give. Hey God allowed this to happen cause maybe some good will come out of it, so how about you let me go so maybe more good come out of more child rape ?

Would you accept such an argument ?, all you would think is nice try, but I ain't buying it.

Non believers aren't buying it either when it comes to God and his morally sufficient reason.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Paradox_7
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2/16/2013 5:47:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 3:25:01 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Why do you want to assert that God "predestinating", means that God predestinates every evil action or permits a rapist to attack a girl??? Of course God predestinates.

First, we are talking about God. Infinite. Meaning, every single action, non-action, place in the future or past, everythought, or every electrical impusle of your brain, wouldn't be enough to busy God if he was in a coma. There would never be a better micromanager, and there is no way we would even notice had he not let us know.

But, second, I don't think he is doing that. I believe everything God designed was good, and he designed this world to perform a purpose of his own. God, being perfect, doesn't make mistakes on his design, nor does he design something he doesn't know the outcome to; it's impossible. As we can see, this design is f*ckin incomprehensible.

He knew, before he made it, that his design would infect itself, and that this infection would be know as evil/darkness. He obviously despises evil, because it is outside his nature, and offensive to him (to the highest degree), so in order to gain the most glory [or the amount of glory he can measure, and so desire], he tolerated the sin and aimed it toward the ultimate purpose of his glory.

So yes, of course he predestines; but do you know that means, is the question? o_0

God did not create sin, correct. NO, god does not ALLOW sin. God did not "allow" a child to be raped or tortured, that person will pay for their sin and the sin they caused the other. God does not tolerate sin and evil and He will deal with them accordingly.

Ultimately, those who God has not called will recieve what deserve according to his Justice. However, in this world, God very much tolerates it..otherwise it wouldn't occur. We'd either be regenerate from the start forever, be regerated immediately upon God request, or just stomped out of existence.

But, lets examine Romans 9 a bit more to get a clearer description of God tolerance for sin:

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"

20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has [endured with much patience] vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--- 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?


I understand, and agree, that all who has not been called, will face seperation from God in the end. But we aren't talking about that, we're talking about the acts of sin that happen every moment of everyday; continuing; within the mind, heart, and hands of mankind at all times.

If God uses rape for His good plans, then what does He need the Holy Spirit for, what does He need His word for, and why would we need instructions and commandments? How could we ever prosecute a criminal if everything is purposed by God, or just to "glorify" Himself? To say that God would use child abuse to glorify Himself is just sick.

This seems like a prestated or thought of response. I thought I made it pretty clear, but apparently not; There isn't anything that God doesn't use for is good plan. He doesn't need the holy spirit, he is the holy spirit! God [the holy spirit], open us to the word of truth, it's not available for the dead to access. This doesn't mean to hide your faith or avoid testifying; it simply means some will reject him no matter what we do, or what they do.

The instructions of the gospel, are for our benefit here as we struggle with our sin. They are not 6 minute righteousness scheme, nor are they intended to be.

The commanments and the Law were intended to reveal our sin to us:

11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.


Our sin is greater then you're admiting. So great, that a good choice, like trusting Christ, is somthing we flat out despise. There is nothing in us, our sinful nature, is good. As it says in Romans 3: "No one seeks God..". God is the one who does the seeking, and he does so for his own reasons, and his desires-- not because we reached out to him.

This explains your last question as well. Those who sin(mankind), do so willingly, and cumpulsviely. We are not free-willed, we are sin willed. This is the result of God's departure. If he withdraws his light from the soul, the soul instantly rebels into darkness. This is why we are to blame, and as for me and my guilt-- God have mercy.

The thought of blaming God for my sin makes me feel like rotting with guilt. I love my sin, and I hate it at the same time-- hence the name Paradox. But, what God revealed to me in his word, wasn't that some unholy humans suffered from more sin then others. But that we are all equally deserving of wrath, and that only those who've been given the living faith, the holy spirit, and the conviction the weight of law bears, will repent. The only reason some are saved, is because God was gracious enough to spare some; take the story of Noah for example.

We all desire sin, and for a creature made in the likeness of God to desire sin, there is no where to shed the blame.

To clarify as well, it's not the sin that glorifies him, it's his victory over it at the fulfillment of his purpose that does.

Who is disputing that? That is why we NEED the Lord, and to be filled with God so that we have not evil desires.

If you suggest that before being regenerated by God, that we can make a choice for him, then you are at a clear obstacle with this passages. There is never a day that we can avoid sin, and there is never a day of our nature being righteous.

We need to be filled with the lord so that we can bear the burdens of our neighbor, not so we can pretty ourselves up for God; he knows what we are like bro. He knows our hearts, and he knows the evil that it produces.

Luther said it pretty good: "God doesn't need our good works, but our neighbor does".

Paul has much to say about the struggles of a Christian, and this should pretty much shake the idea of us being righteous in this life, aside from the regeneration of our spirits, and the gift of faith through the holy spirit who works within us, and performs the good works that were prepared beforehand for us to do.

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
HmblySkTrth
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2/16/2013 7:02:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Illegalcombatant,

You were correct that they do not respond. They either do not understand, or they pretend they don't because they don't have an answer.

I guess the answer is: God is omnipotent, but not responsible for anything that goes wrong.
joneszj
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2/16/2013 7:18:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
tldr; I might read it all later

Illegal, check this link out. It goes through the various theophanies. Let me know what you think if you read it.

http://www.reformed.org...
Suqua
Posts: 433
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2/17/2013 12:47:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 8:05:05 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If I knew a man was going to kill a baby, I wouldn't give him free will if I had the power. If God gives people free will knowing in advance they will do something horrific, he is just as sick as the person committing the crime.

How about a woman, killing her own baby?
Suqua
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2/17/2013 12:59:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 8:03:40 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Thank goodness our society doesn't think like God if he exists. I thank my lucky stars the police are there to prevent and take the free will away from people who commit horrific crimes. If we were all like God and just gave evil people the will to do what they wanted, this planet would be a hell hole.

You mean like the Big corporations who screw the public finacially over, and go home with a load of public, investers, money in their pockets. Too big to fail. Im sure glad the police were there to protect the common folk. Not! And who went to jail? And who bailed out these, too big to fail companies? Ask those who were screwed over, what the cops did to protect them!
Suqua
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2/17/2013 1:38:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 4:22:33 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When "evil" is used as an argument against God existence, especially a supernatural person who is all powerful, all knowing, all good, the tri omi God, a common if not main counter is to invoke that God has sufficient moral reason for allowing what ever "evil" that is bought up to happen

So, as an atheist, I'm assuming, what constitutes evil, and how do you arrive at that?
Just need to get some background. Since we're talking about the God of the bible, I'm assuming, how do you come to the definition what all powerful means in realation to God' character, and if He has limitations, which some think He has none. Because you are asking God to stop, this, evil, I'm assuming, and that you want God to stop all kinds of evil. Am I correct? If you agree, then we must understand what evil, in all its forms, is. No matter the kind, to stop. Big or small.

Now consider this scenario, a person has kidnapped a baby or child and confines them to some underground basement. The kidnapper tortures and rapes the child over a period of years. Most people around here I am sure can recall such things happening in their lifetime, for added horror ask yourself how many more children/people have being kidnapped and are being held to be raped and tortured that we don't know about.

Never the less every now and then one of theses stories comes to light and of course makes front page news for a while. Now imagine if such a kidnapper when caught says, yes I did kidnap that child and torture them, and guess what your going to let me go and your going to let me do it again. Of course people would probably ask why the hell would we do that ? the kidnapper responds, well think about it, God exists, yet God allowed me to do it, as such God must have a morally sufficient reason for allowing me to do it. So my good christian brother and sisters be on your way, take off these hand cuffs and let me get back to kidnapping and rapeing children, all allowed cause God has morally sufficient reason for allowing this to happen, if he didn't have a morally sufficient reason for allowing me to rape and torture children he wouldn't allow it now would he ?

The vast bulk if not all christians would not give a rats a$$ about his arguments about God allowing this to happen cause of "moral sufficient reason" and wouldn't feel compelled one bit based on this piece of brilliant logic to allow the kiddy torturer and rapist loose.

I can only assume that christians and non believers would call horsesh*t on this rapists arguments here, I ain't letting that kiddy rapist loose, yet that same christian also thinks the non believers should believe in the existence of such a tri omi God who allows such things to happen like the kidnap and rape of children cause God has morally sufficient reasons for allowing it.

Some non believers are calling horsesh*t on that one too. Do you think maybe, just maybe they might be unto something here ?
Illegalcombatant
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2/17/2013 4:24:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 1:38:58 AM, Suqua wrote:
At 2/16/2013 4:22:33 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When "evil" is used as an argument against God existence, especially a supernatural person who is all powerful, all knowing, all good, the tri omi God, a common if not main counter is to invoke that God has sufficient moral reason for allowing what ever "evil" that is bought up to happen

So, as an atheist, I'm assuming, what constitutes evil, and how do you arrive at that?
Just need to get some background. Since we're talking about the God of the bible, I'm assuming, how do you come to the definition what all powerful means in realation to God' character, and if He has limitations, which some think He has none. Because you are asking God to stop, this, evil, I'm assuming, and that you want God to stop all kinds of evil. Am I correct? If you agree, then we must understand what evil, in all its forms, is. No matter the kind, to stop. Big or small.

I am just using "evil" in the sense as most atheists/theists use the term. If you want to narrow it down more specifically if would be something like the suffering and harm of conscious creatures. Christians/Muslims etc give the game away here on evil when they retort, hey if God doesn't exist why shouldn't I/we just go around killing, rapeing and listening to rap music. Notice how they link suffering and evil.

As far as this thread goes I am not asking God to do anything.


Now consider this scenario, a person has kidnapped a baby or child and confines them to some underground basement. The kidnapper tortures and rapes the child over a period of years. Most people around here I am sure can recall such things happening in their lifetime, for added horror ask yourself how many more children/people have being kidnapped and are being held to be raped and tortured that we don't know about.

Never the less every now and then one of theses stories comes to light and of course makes front page news for a while. Now imagine if such a kidnapper when caught says, yes I did kidnap that child and torture them, and guess what your going to let me go and your going to let me do it again. Of course people would probably ask why the hell would we do that ? the kidnapper responds, well think about it, God exists, yet God allowed me to do it, as such God must have a morally sufficient reason for allowing me to do it. So my good christian brother and sisters be on your way, take off these hand cuffs and let me get back to kidnapping and rapeing children, all allowed cause God has morally sufficient reason for allowing this to happen, if he didn't have a morally sufficient reason for allowing me to rape and torture children he wouldn't allow it now would he ?

The vast bulk if not all christians would not give a rats a$$ about his arguments about God allowing this to happen cause of "moral sufficient reason" and wouldn't feel compelled one bit based on this piece of brilliant logic to allow the kiddy torturer and rapist loose.

I can only assume that christians and non believers would call horsesh*t on this rapists arguments here, I ain't letting that kiddy rapist loose, yet that same christian also thinks the non believers should believe in the existence of such a tri omi God who allows such things to happen like the kidnap and rape of children cause God has morally sufficient reasons for allowing it.

Some non believers are calling horsesh*t on that one too. Do you think maybe, just maybe they might be unto something here ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
muzebreak
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2/17/2013 7:57:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I see a lot of theists here raising the free will defence. I'd like to address them all with one post.

What is free will? It is, simply put, the ability to make a choice. That doesn't mean that we can choose anything we want though. For instance, we can't choose to destroy god, or fast forward to Tuesday, or be gods uncle Peter. So what is it about committing evil that makes all Christians believe that it should be a choice anyone can make? Why do we have to have the choice to commit evil, but not the ability to choose to be gods uncle Peter? If you believe that free will is the reason god allows evil, the why isn't it also the reason that he allows us the choice to remotely kill every person who is about to kill an evil act, with but a thought?

Free will is about choices, we don't get the choice to do whatever we want, we only get the choices god, if he exists, allows us. And he allows evil.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.