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Historical evidence of the risen Christ.

Polaris
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2/17/2013 12:43:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The christian gospels were written somewhere between 35 to 77 years after the death of Jesus. Of the Gospels the Gospel of John is considered the oldest, believed to have been written between 70 AD and 110 AD. That's a rather substantially gap and is unlikely to be a first hand account considering the average lifespan at the time.

Furthermore, at best the only contents of these gospels that can be attested to and corroborated by external sources is the existence of a Jewish leader referred to as christus, and his subsequent execution. And even those historical accounts were written several decades after the fact. And still there is no mention of healing the blind, raising the dead, resurrection, or empty tombs by any external source. These events were recorded only by the devout follows of Jesus (whom were regarded by Romans as being a superstitious people) at the very earliest 3 decades after the fact. One might think that if someone in the Roman Empire was raising the dead or healing the blind, the Christians wouldn't be the only ones to take notice.

The uncorroborated supernatural events recorded in the Christian gospels, written many decades after the events were said to have occurred, are more consonant with legend than history.
Ramshutu
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2/17/2013 12:49:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
There is historical and Archeological evidence to suggest that there was a sacking of troy. To suggest this means that the illiad is 100% accurate as a result, is not correct.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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2/17/2013 12:53:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 12:43:03 PM, Polaris wrote:
Of the Gospels the Gospel of John is considered the oldest, believed to have been written between 70 AD and 110 AD.

That's news to me.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Polaris
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2/17/2013 1:11:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 12:53:04 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/17/2013 12:43:03 PM, Polaris wrote:
Of the Gospels the Gospel of John is considered the oldest, believed to have been written between 70 AD and 110 AD.

That's news to me.

Here's some sources if anybody is interested.

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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2/17/2013 1:13:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 1:11:18 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 2/17/2013 12:53:04 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/17/2013 12:43:03 PM, Polaris wrote:
Of the Gospels the Gospel of John is considered the oldest, believed to have been written between 70 AD and 110 AD.

That's news to me.

Here's some sources if anybody is interested.

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

I looked at Wikipedia, and it says that the majority view is that the Gospel of John is the youngest.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
GarretKadeDupre
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2/17/2013 1:15:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't have the source at the moment, but I remember reading that the references to the High Priest in the Gospels was an indication of contemporary writing. Kind of like if I wrote a letter and mentioned the president, I wouldn't necessarily mention him by name because I'd assume every one knew who he was.
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GodSands
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2/17/2013 1:19:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 1:11:18 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 2/17/2013 12:53:04 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/17/2013 12:43:03 PM, Polaris wrote:
Of the Gospels the Gospel of John is considered the oldest, believed to have been written between 70 AD and 110 AD.

That's news to me.

Here's some sources if anybody is interested.

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

....There are three parts to the video, please watch the other two.
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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2/17/2013 2:01:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I believe the internal evidence is that all of the 27 books were written before the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. If so, they were written perhaps 15 to 35 years following the death of Christ.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Polaris
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2/17/2013 2:10:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 1:13:42 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/17/2013 1:11:18 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 2/17/2013 12:53:04 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/17/2013 12:43:03 PM, Polaris wrote:
Of the Gospels the Gospel of John is considered the oldest, believed to have been written between 70 AD and 110 AD.

That's news to me.

Here's some sources if anybody is interested.

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

I looked at Wikipedia, and it says that the majority view is that the Gospel of John is the youngest.

Where are you reading that? I've look through and could not find any such statement.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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2/17/2013 2:13:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 2:10:30 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 2/17/2013 1:13:42 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/17/2013 1:11:18 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 2/17/2013 12:53:04 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/17/2013 12:43:03 PM, Polaris wrote:
Of the Gospels the Gospel of John is considered the oldest, believed to have been written between 70 AD and 110 AD.

That's news to me.

Here's some sources if anybody is interested.

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

I looked at Wikipedia, and it says that the majority view is that the Gospel of John is the youngest.

Where are you reading that? I've look through and could not find any such statement.

Mark: c. 68"73,[30] c. 65"70[31]
Matthew: c. 70"100.[30] c. 80"85.[31]
Luke: c. 80"100, with most arguing for somewhere around 85,[30] c. 80"85[31]
John: c. 90"100,[31] c. 90"110,[32] The majority view is that it was written in stages, so there was no one date of composition.

John is probably the youngest, given that the majority places Luke around the mid 80s, whereas John is placed between 90-110, although I suppose some lunatic could argue Luke was written in 100 and John in 90 or something like that.

At any rate, it's certainly not the oldest.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
annanicole
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2/17/2013 2:25:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
How could John have been written in 110AD? John was an adult in AD 30.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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2/17/2013 2:30:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 2:25:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
How could John have been written in 110AD? John was an adult in AD 30.

The question is: who is John?

If John was who you seem to think he was, perhaps he had some OT Patriarch lifespan stuff going on.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
muzebreak
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2/17/2013 2:32:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 2:25:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
How could John have been written in 110AD? John was an adult in AD 30.

This is assuming John was a real person, that you know who he is, and that the author of John was the John you believe him to be.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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2/17/2013 2:34:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Ummm ... who do I seem to think he was? Tell me, and I'll see if what you think about what I think about who he was is correct.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Polaris
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2/17/2013 2:34:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 2:01:56 PM, annanicole wrote:
I believe the internal evidence is that all of the 27 books were written before the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. If so, they were written perhaps 15 to 35 years following the death of Christ.

"...a number of word usages supposedly articulated by Jesus were not "in vogue" until after the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 ad/ce. These terms used anachronistically in the gospels include: 1. "Gehenna" (Hell) as a place of punishment; 2. "synagogue" as concerns a place of prayer; 3. "sanhedrin" as referring to the Jewish court; and 4. "mammon" as meaning "money."[16] In the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew, Jesus is represented as assailing prayer in public, as in the synagogues, when in reality synagogues were never used as houses of prayer until after the temple was destroyed. Hence, this part of the Sermon could not have been written until after that time"

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com...
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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2/17/2013 2:36:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 2:34:05 PM, annanicole wrote:
Ummm ... who do I seem to think he was? Tell me, and I'll see if what you think about what I think about who he was is correct.

John the Apostle.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Polaris
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2/17/2013 2:41:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 2:13:58 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/17/2013 2:10:30 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 2/17/2013 1:13:42 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/17/2013 1:11:18 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 2/17/2013 12:53:04 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/17/2013 12:43:03 PM, Polaris wrote:
Of the Gospels the Gospel of John is considered the oldest, believed to have been written between 70 AD and 110 AD.

That's news to me.

Here's some sources if anybody is interested.

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

I looked at Wikipedia, and it says that the majority view is that the Gospel of John is the youngest.

Where are you reading that? I've look through and could not find any such statement.

Mark: c. 68"73,[30] c. 65"70[31]
Matthew: c. 70"100.[30] c. 80"85.[31]
Luke: c. 80"100, with most arguing for somewhere around 85,[30] c. 80"85[31]
John: c. 90"100,[31] c. 90"110,[32] The majority view is that it was written in stages, so there was no one date of composition.

John is probably the youngest, given that the majority places Luke around the mid 80s, whereas John is placed between 90-110, although I suppose some lunatic could argue Luke was written in 100 and John in 90 or something like that.

At any rate, it's certainly not the oldest.

?

Nothing you just cited states that John was the youngest. In fact it shows precisely the opposite. The general view whether secular or Christian, is that Mathew is the Youngest, and John the oldest.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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2/17/2013 2:43:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 2:41:41 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 2/17/2013 2:13:58 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/17/2013 2:10:30 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 2/17/2013 1:13:42 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/17/2013 1:11:18 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 2/17/2013 12:53:04 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/17/2013 12:43:03 PM, Polaris wrote:
Of the Gospels the Gospel of John is considered the oldest, believed to have been written between 70 AD and 110 AD.

That's news to me.

Here's some sources if anybody is interested.

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

I looked at Wikipedia, and it says that the majority view is that the Gospel of John is the youngest.

Where are you reading that? I've look through and could not find any such statement.

Mark: c. 68"73,[30] c. 65"70[31]
Matthew: c. 70"100.[30] c. 80"85.[31]
Luke: c. 80"100, with most arguing for somewhere around 85,[30] c. 80"85[31]
John: c. 90"100,[31] c. 90"110,[32] The majority view is that it was written in stages, so there was no one date of composition.

John is probably the youngest, given that the majority places Luke around the mid 80s, whereas John is placed between 90-110, although I suppose some lunatic could argue Luke was written in 100 and John in 90 or something like that.

At any rate, it's certainly not the oldest.

?

Nothing you just cited states that John was the youngest. In fact it shows precisely the opposite. The general view whether secular or Christian, is that Mathew is the Youngest, and John the oldest.

Are you trolling?

We have two people. One was born in 2000 (13 years old). The other was born in 2012 (1 year old). Who is older?

If you answered 'the one born in 2012', you have severe cognitive deficiencies. The later something came into being, the younger it is.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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2/17/2013 2:47:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 2:34:49 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 2/17/2013 2:01:56 PM, annanicole wrote:
I believe the internal evidence is that all of the 27 books were written before the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. If so, they were written perhaps 15 to 35 years following the death of Christ.

"...a number of word usages supposedly articulated by Jesus were not "in vogue" until after the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 ad/ce. These terms used anachronistically in the gospels include: 1. "Gehenna" (Hell) as a place of punishment; 2. "synagogue" as concerns a place of prayer; 3. "sanhedrin" as referring to the Jewish court; and 4. "mammon" as meaning "money."[16] In the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew, Jesus is represented as assailing prayer in public, as in the synagogues, when in reality synagogues were never used as houses of prayer until after the temple was destroyed. Hence, this part of the Sermon could not have been written until after that time"

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com...

What that means is that they can't find "gehenna" used in any other comtempary writings, thus they move the date of writing forward to coincide with secular history. Hmm. Same with mammon. Is that an accurate appraisal?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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2/17/2013 2:50:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 2:25:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
How could John have been written in 110AD? John was an adult in AD 30.

Assuming the Apostle John is the author of the Gospel of John. None of the authors are explicit stated. Furthermore many of the apostles were very likely illiterate, as they came from the underclass. The actual authors are unknown.
Polaris
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2/17/2013 2:57:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 2:43:31 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/17/2013 2:41:41 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 2/17/2013 2:13:58 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/17/2013 2:10:30 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 2/17/2013 1:13:42 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/17/2013 1:11:18 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 2/17/2013 12:53:04 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/17/2013 12:43:03 PM, Polaris wrote:
Of the Gospels the Gospel of John is considered the oldest, believed to have been written between 70 AD and 110 AD.

That's news to me.

Here's some sources if anybody is interested.

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

I looked at Wikipedia, and it says that the majority view is that the Gospel of John is the youngest.

Where are you reading that? I've look through and could not find any such statement.

Mark: c. 68"73,[30] c. 65"70[31]
Matthew: c. 70"100.[30] c. 80"85.[31]
Luke: c. 80"100, with most arguing for somewhere around 85,[30] c. 80"85[31]
John: c. 90"100,[31] c. 90"110,[32] The majority view is that it was written in stages, so there was no one date of composition.

John is probably the youngest, given that the majority places Luke around the mid 80s, whereas John is placed between 90-110, although I suppose some lunatic could argue Luke was written in 100 and John in 90 or something like that.

At any rate, it's certainly not the oldest.

?

Nothing you just cited states that John was the youngest. In fact it shows precisely the opposite. The general view whether secular or Christian, is that Mathew is the Youngest, and John the oldest.

Are you trolling?

We have two people. One was born in 2000 (13 years old). The other was born in 2012 (1 year old). Who is older?

If you answered 'the one born in 2012', you have severe cognitive deficiencies. The later something came into being, the younger it is.

Perhaps "earliest" would be a more appropriate term here. My apologies.
Polaris
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2/17/2013 3:25:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 2:47:28 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/17/2013 2:34:49 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 2/17/2013 2:01:56 PM, annanicole wrote:
I believe the internal evidence is that all of the 27 books were written before the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. If so, they were written perhaps 15 to 35 years following the death of Christ.

"...a number of word usages supposedly articulated by Jesus were not "in vogue" until after the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 ad/ce. These terms used anachronistically in the gospels include: 1. "Gehenna" (Hell) as a place of punishment; 2. "synagogue" as concerns a place of prayer; 3. "sanhedrin" as referring to the Jewish court; and 4. "mammon" as meaning "money."[16] In the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew, Jesus is represented as assailing prayer in public, as in the synagogues, when in reality synagogues were never used as houses of prayer until after the temple was destroyed. Hence, this part of the Sermon could not have been written until after that time"

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com...

What that means is that they can't find "gehenna" used in any other comtempary writings, thus they move the date of writing forward to coincide with secular history. Hmm. Same with mammon. Is that an accurate appraisal?

The use of several anachronisms such as: Gehenna, Mammon, Synagogue, and sanhedrin build a cumulative case for older dates. Furthermore this is not limited only to secular scholarship, but some christian sources give older dates as well. Only the most conservative scholars limit the gospels to before 70 AD, that is not the scholarly consensus.
Polaris
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2/17/2013 3:31:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 2:47:28 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/17/2013 2:34:49 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 2/17/2013 2:01:56 PM, annanicole wrote:
I believe the internal evidence is that all of the 27 books were written before the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. If so, they were written perhaps 15 to 35 years following the death of Christ.

"...a number of word usages supposedly articulated by Jesus were not "in vogue" until after the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 ad/ce. These terms used anachronistically in the gospels include: 1. "Gehenna" (Hell) as a place of punishment; 2. "synagogue" as concerns a place of prayer; 3. "sanhedrin" as referring to the Jewish court; and 4. "mammon" as meaning "money."[16] In the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew, Jesus is represented as assailing prayer in public, as in the synagogues, when in reality synagogues were never used as houses of prayer until after the temple was destroyed. Hence, this part of the Sermon could not have been written until after that time"

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com...

What that means is that they can't find "gehenna" used in any other comtempary writings, thus they move the date of writing forward to coincide with secular history. Hmm. Same with mammon. Is that an accurate appraisal?

http://www.bc.edu...
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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2/17/2013 3:38:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Man, we need stubs in this thread. He's an expert on the NT.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Polaris
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2/17/2013 4:13:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 1:19:04 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 2/17/2013 1:11:18 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 2/17/2013 12:53:04 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 2/17/2013 12:43:03 PM, Polaris wrote:
Of the Gospels the Gospel of John is considered the oldest, believed to have been written between 70 AD and 110 AD.

That's news to me.

Here's some sources if anybody is interested.

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

....There are three parts to the video, please watch the other two.

The other parts of your video don't seem to present anything that I would dispute, nor do they present any evidence that Jesus was rose from the dead or performed any miracles. I am willing to accept that the there was a leader of Jews named yeshua and that he was executed, my contention is that many of the details written about him in the Gospels are more consonant with legend than with history. It appears to me that his followers made many fantastical embellishments in retelling his narrative. This is not unexpected given the time period, and the religious nature of his following.
annanicole
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2/17/2013 4:27:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 3:38:42 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
Man, we need stubs in this thread. He's an expert on the NT.

Yep, he knows more about the history, authorship, etc of the NT - way more - than I do. I'm outta my league on this subject.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
DeFool
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2/17/2013 7:55:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
There never was any such person as "Jesus."

The angst and hand wringing of the pusillanimous agnostics is unnecessary. There are men going about named "Jesus" today. I've known many of them. The state of having this or that name does not make someone "that" Jesus.

The necessary components of being the "real" biblical Jesus is that the candidate must be able to walk on water, turn water into wine, torture and murder with impunity in the after life, kill himself and not die, etc..

Show me the "historic" person that does this, and I will inevitably bring up Merlin the Magician, and speculate that Thor was a historic figure as well.
GarretKadeDupre
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2/17/2013 8:53:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 7:58:38 PM, drafterman wrote:
I died and came back to life. Me saying so here is evidence.

Not funny, and not even a valid argument. Come back and tell me the same thing when you are willing to suffer torture and die for your belief, and have the most popular book in the world to support your claim as evidence.
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