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The atrocities of atheism, Albania.

johnlubba
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2/26/2013 1:36:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I recently learnt that Albania was the fisrt declared Atheistic state.... Renouncing all religions.. However I would like to bring it to the attention of atheists who proclaim the atrocities of the religious organzations...... Here is an extract from a wikipedia article of the atrocities caused by atheism on the religious.

Albania

Main article: Religion in Albania#Communist Albania

State atheism in Albania was taken to an extreme during the totalitarian regime installed after World War II, when religions, identified as imports foreign to Albanian culture, were banned altogether.[29] The Agrarian Reform Law of August 1945 nationalized most property of religious institutions, including the estates of monasteries, orders, and dioceses. Many clergy and believers were tried, tortured, and executed. All foreign Roman Catholic priests, monks, and nuns were expelled in 1946.[30]

Religious communities or branches that had their headquarters outside the country, such as the Jesuit and Franciscan orders, were henceforth ordered to terminate their activities in Albania. Religious institutions were forbidden to have anything to do with the education of the young, because that had been made the exclusive province of the state. All religious communities were prohibited from owning real estate and from operating philanthropic and welfare institutions and hospitals. Although there were tactical variations in Enver Hoxha's approach to each of the major denominations, his overarching objective was the eventual destruction of all organized religion in Albania. Between 1945 and 1953, the number of priests was reduced drastically and the number of Roman Catholic churches was decreased from 253 to 100, and all Catholics were stigmatized as fascists.[30]
johnlubba
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2/26/2013 1:38:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The campaign against religion peaked in the 1960s. Beginning in 1967 the Albanian authorities began a violent campaign to try to eliminate religious life in Albania. Despite complaints, even by APL members, all churches, mosques, monasteries, and other religious institutions were either closed down or converted into warehouses, gymnasiums, or workshops by the end of 1967.[31] By May 1967, religious institutions had been forced to relinquish all 2,169 churches, mosques, cloisters, and shrines in Albania, many of which were converted into cultural centers for young people. As the literary monthly Nendori reported the event, the youth had thus "created the first atheist nation in the world."[30]

The clergy were publicly vilified and humiliated, their vestments taken and desecrated. More than 200 clerics of various faiths were imprisoned, others were forced to seek work in either industry or agriculture, and some were executed or starved to death. The cloister of the Franciscan order in Shkod"r was set on fire, which resulted in the death of four elderly monks.[30]

Article 37 of the Albanian Constitution of 1976 stipulated, "The state recognizes no religion, and supports atheistic propaganda in order to implant a scientific materialistic world outlook in people.",[32] and the penal code of 1977 imposed prison sentences of three to ten years for "religious propaganda and the production, distribution, or storage of religious literature." A new decree that in effect targeted Albanians with Muslim and Christian names stipulated that citizens whose names did not conform to "the political, ideological, or moral standards of the state" were to change them. It was also decreed that towns and villages with religious names must be renamed. Hoxha's brutal antireligious campaign succeeded in eradicating formal worship, but some Albanians continued to practice their faith clandestinely, risking severe punishment. Individuals caught with Bibles, icons, or other religious objects faced long prison sentences. Religious weddings were prohibited.[33]

Parents were afraid to pass on their faith, for fear that their children would tell others. Officials tried to entrap practicing Christians and Muslims during religious fasts, such as Lent and Ramadan, by distributing dairy products and other forbidden foods in school and at work, and then publicly denouncing those who refused the food, and clergy who conducted secret services were incarcerated.[30] Catholic priest Shtjefen Kurti had been executed for secretly baptizing a child in Shkod"r in 1972.[34]

The article was interpreted by Danes as violating The United Nations Charter (chapter 9, article 55) which declares that religious freedom is an inalienable human right. The first time that the question came before the United Nations' Commission on Human Rights at Geneva was as late as 7 March 1983. A delegation from Denmark got its protest over Albania's violation of religious liberty placed on the agenda of the thirty-ninth meeting of the commission, item 25, reading, "Implementation of the Declaration on the Elimination of all Forms of Intolerance and of Discrimination based on Religion or Belief.", and on 20 July 1984 a member of the Danish Parliament inserted an article in one of Denmark's major newspapers protesting the violation of religious freedom in Albania.
drafterman
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2/26/2013 2:06:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/26/2013 1:50:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:48:49 PM, drafterman wrote:
How did atheism "cause" these atrocities?

Excuse me? Are you serious........

Extremely. You see, atheism has no dogma or directives with which to influence someone vis-a-vis religion. If you bothered to look a bit deeper, you could have seen the causal factors here. From the references in that wikipedia article:

"A dogmatic Stalinist, Hoxha considered religion a divisive force and undertook an active campaign against religious institutions,"

The anti-religious fervor game from Hoxha's Stalinism. Both Hoxha's atheism and his anti-theism, were an effect of his "dogmatic" Stalinism. Now, I'm not a Stalinist or a Communist, so I can't say to what degree his interpretation of that dogma should have resulted in antitheism, but nevertheless, it did.

You have done little more than display a post hoc fallacy. They were atheists. They were antitheists. Ergo they were antitheists because they were atheists.

That is not an accurate portrayal, as I have just demonstrated. With a scant 5 minutes of looking a bit deeper.
Pennington
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2/26/2013 2:36:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/26/2013 2:06:16 PM, drafterman wrote:

Extremely. You see, atheism has no dogma or directives with which to influence someone vis-a-vis religion. If you bothered to look a bit deeper, you could have seen the causal factors here. From the references in that wikipedia article:

"A dogmatic Stalinist, Hoxha considered religion a divisive force and undertook an active campaign against religious institutions,"

The anti-religious fervor game from Hoxha's Stalinism. Both Hoxha's atheism and his anti-theism, were an effect of his "dogmatic" Stalinism. Now, I'm not a Stalinist or a Communist, so I can't say to what degree his interpretation of that dogma should have resulted in antitheism, but nevertheless, it did.

You have done little more than display a post hoc fallacy. They were atheists. They were antitheists. Ergo they were antitheists because they were atheists.

That is not an accurate portrayal, as I have just demonstrated. With a scant 5 minutes of looking a bit deeper.

Atheism does not have a desire to have religious influence ahnilated. Sure atheism has a agenda. Atheism has always had the agenda of discrediting religion and to break society away from religious dogma.
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bladerunner060
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2/26/2013 2:49:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
To expand a bit on drafterman, blaming all atheists for the actions of communists is similar in kind to holding theists responsible for every single cult.

Usually, when talking about the "atrocities of religion", we're talking about religions that are considered "normal"; communism isn't really "normal" or mainstream. I don't think too many atheists bring the Thugee Kali cults into debates.
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Skepsikyma
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2/26/2013 2:52:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/26/2013 2:36:31 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 2/26/2013 2:06:16 PM, drafterman wrote:

Extremely. You see, atheism has no dogma or directives with which to influence someone vis-a-vis religion. If you bothered to look a bit deeper, you could have seen the causal factors here. From the references in that wikipedia article:

"A dogmatic Stalinist, Hoxha considered religion a divisive force and undertook an active campaign against religious institutions,"

The anti-religious fervor game from Hoxha's Stalinism. Both Hoxha's atheism and his anti-theism, were an effect of his "dogmatic" Stalinism. Now, I'm not a Stalinist or a Communist, so I can't say to what degree his interpretation of that dogma should have resulted in antitheism, but nevertheless, it did.

You have done little more than display a post hoc fallacy. They were atheists. They were antitheists. Ergo they were antitheists because they were atheists.

That is not an accurate portrayal, as I have just demonstrated. With a scant 5 minutes of looking a bit deeper.

Atheism does not have a desire to have religious influence ahnilated. Sure atheism has a agenda. Atheism has always had the agenda of discrediting religion and to break society away from religious dogma.

No, it hasn't. I'm an atheist and I couldn't care less about what perfect strangers (society) do with their time. I rarely have theological arguments with people, so discrediting religion is, thankfully, not one of my pastimes. That may be a trend, but it isn't a universal agenda which atheists adhere to.
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- Hilaire Belloc -
tkubok
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2/26/2013 6:44:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/26/2013 2:36:31 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 2/26/2013 2:06:16 PM, drafterman wrote:

Extremely. You see, atheism has no dogma or directives with which to influence someone vis-a-vis religion. If you bothered to look a bit deeper, you could have seen the causal factors here. From the references in that wikipedia article:

"A dogmatic Stalinist, Hoxha considered religion a divisive force and undertook an active campaign against religious institutions,"

The anti-religious fervor game from Hoxha's Stalinism. Both Hoxha's atheism and his anti-theism, were an effect of his "dogmatic" Stalinism. Now, I'm not a Stalinist or a Communist, so I can't say to what degree his interpretation of that dogma should have resulted in antitheism, but nevertheless, it did.

You have done little more than display a post hoc fallacy. They were atheists. They were antitheists. Ergo they were antitheists because they were atheists.

That is not an accurate portrayal, as I have just demonstrated. With a scant 5 minutes of looking a bit deeper.

Atheism does not have a desire to have religious influence ahnilated. Sure atheism has a agenda. Atheism has always had the agenda of discrediting religion and to break society away from religious dogma.

Again, no. Buddhism, for example, can be considered atheism, but its a religion.
Wnope
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2/26/2013 6:48:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I suppose if Hitler is a Christian, Christians are responsible for the Holocaust?

After all, Hitler, like yourself, explicitly equated communism with atheism.

"Today they say that Christianity is in danger, that the Catholic faith is threatened. My reply to them is: for the time being, Christians and not international atheists are now standing at Germany"s fore. I am not merely talking about Christianity; I confess that I will never ally myself with the parties which aim to destroy Christianity. Fourteen years they have gone arm in arm with atheism. At no time was greater damage ever done to Christianity than in those years when the Christian parties ruled side by side with those who denied the very existence of God. Germany's entire cultural life was shattered and contaminated in this period. It shall be our task to burn out these manifestations of degeneracy in literature, theater, schools, and the press"that is, in our entire culture"and to eliminate the poison which has been permeating every facet of our lives for these past fourteen years"
Illegalcombatant
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2/26/2013 6:52:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
There is a mis-understanding that cause some one or something is atheistic, and that some one or something does something bad therefore atheism was the cause.

Notice that no one blames the holocaust on the unbelief in bigfoot or aliens, but some feel quite confident to claim, atheism caused nazi's and the holocaust.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc perhaps ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
johnlubba
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2/27/2013 7:24:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/26/2013 2:06:16 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:50:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:48:49 PM, drafterman wrote:
How did atheism "cause" these atrocities?

Excuse me? Are you serious........

Extremely. You see, atheism has no dogma or directives with which to influence someone vis-a-vis religion. If you bothered to look a bit deeper, you could have seen the causal factors here. From the references in that wikipedia article:

"A dogmatic Stalinist, Hoxha considered religion a divisive force and undertook an active campaign against religious institutions,"

The anti-religious fervor game from Hoxha's Stalinism. Both Hoxha's atheism and his anti-theism, were an effect of his "dogmatic" Stalinism. Now, I'm not a Stalinist or a Communist, so I can't say to what degree his interpretation of that dogma should have resulted in antitheism, but nevertheless, it did.

You have done little more than display a post hoc fallacy. They were atheists. They were antitheists. Ergo they were antitheists because they were atheists.

That is not an accurate portrayal, as I have just demonstrated. With a scant 5 minutes of looking a bit deeper.

Actually an unwarranted violent oppression on those who practice a religious faith springs to mind.
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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2/27/2013 7:52:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
This is about "state atheism", a doctrine never heard of outside of communistic totaltarianisms.

Most modern atheists would agree with the UN charter declaring religious freedom to be a human right.

State atheism is set of beliefs. Atheism is a set of doubts. Though their names are similar, they aren't the same type of thing.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

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drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/27/2013 8:44:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 7:24:45 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 2:06:16 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:50:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:48:49 PM, drafterman wrote:
How did atheism "cause" these atrocities?

Excuse me? Are you serious........

Extremely. You see, atheism has no dogma or directives with which to influence someone vis-a-vis religion. If you bothered to look a bit deeper, you could have seen the causal factors here. From the references in that wikipedia article:

"A dogmatic Stalinist, Hoxha considered religion a divisive force and undertook an active campaign against religious institutions,"

The anti-religious fervor game from Hoxha's Stalinism. Both Hoxha's atheism and his anti-theism, were an effect of his "dogmatic" Stalinism. Now, I'm not a Stalinist or a Communist, so I can't say to what degree his interpretation of that dogma should have resulted in antitheism, but nevertheless, it did.

You have done little more than display a post hoc fallacy. They were atheists. They were antitheists. Ergo they were antitheists because they were atheists.

That is not an accurate portrayal, as I have just demonstrated. With a scant 5 minutes of looking a bit deeper.

Actually an unwarranted violent oppression on those who practice a religious faith springs to mind.

Caused by dogmatic Stalinism... not atheism.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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2/27/2013 8:56:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/26/2013 6:48:40 PM, Wnope wrote:
I suppose if Hitler is a Christian, Christians are responsible for the Holocaust?

Wouldn't be the first time I've heard that, although the other times were in much more earnest.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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2/27/2013 10:26:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 8:44:43 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 7:24:45 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 2:06:16 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:50:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:48:49 PM, drafterman wrote:
How did atheism "cause" these atrocities?

Excuse me? Are you serious........

Extremely. You see, atheism has no dogma or directives with which to influence someone vis-a-vis religion. If you bothered to look a bit deeper, you could have seen the causal factors here. From the references in that wikipedia article:

"A dogmatic Stalinist, Hoxha considered religion a divisive force and undertook an active campaign against religious institutions,"

The anti-religious fervor game from Hoxha's Stalinism. Both Hoxha's atheism and his anti-theism, were an effect of his "dogmatic" Stalinism. Now, I'm not a Stalinist or a Communist, so I can't say to what degree his interpretation of that dogma should have resulted in antitheism, but nevertheless, it did.

You have done little more than display a post hoc fallacy. They were atheists. They were antitheists. Ergo they were antitheists because they were atheists.

That is not an accurate portrayal, as I have just demonstrated. With a scant 5 minutes of looking a bit deeper.

Actually an unwarranted violent oppression on those who practice a religious faith springs to mind.

Caused by dogmatic Stalinism... not atheism.

No, No, No, Still a violent oppression against anybody inclined to a religious faith springs to mind, formed by an alegiance of radical atheistic thought..... Hitler did not try to kill all non Christians and did not stand for Christians, A country that declares itself an atheistic state and wages an agenda against those of any type of faith, falls into a catergory of radical atheisim.....Obviously not everybody who is atheist fits under this umbrella.....But the organisation that commited these attrocites indeed stood in favour for atheistic values and surpressed any opposition to it's idelogy.... Hence atheisim has a lot to do with it.
drafterman
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2/27/2013 10:45:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 10:26:57 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/27/2013 8:44:43 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 7:24:45 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 2:06:16 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:50:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:48:49 PM, drafterman wrote:
How did atheism "cause" these atrocities?

Excuse me? Are you serious........

Extremely. You see, atheism has no dogma or directives with which to influence someone vis-a-vis religion. If you bothered to look a bit deeper, you could have seen the causal factors here. From the references in that wikipedia article:

"A dogmatic Stalinist, Hoxha considered religion a divisive force and undertook an active campaign against religious institutions,"

The anti-religious fervor game from Hoxha's Stalinism. Both Hoxha's atheism and his anti-theism, were an effect of his "dogmatic" Stalinism. Now, I'm not a Stalinist or a Communist, so I can't say to what degree his interpretation of that dogma should have resulted in antitheism, but nevertheless, it did.

You have done little more than display a post hoc fallacy. They were atheists. They were antitheists. Ergo they were antitheists because they were atheists.

That is not an accurate portrayal, as I have just demonstrated. With a scant 5 minutes of looking a bit deeper.

Actually an unwarranted violent oppression on those who practice a religious faith springs to mind.

Caused by dogmatic Stalinism... not atheism.


No, No, No, Still a violent oppression against anybody inclined to a religious faith springs to mind, formed by an alegiance of radical atheistic thought..... Hitler did not try to kill all non Christians and did not stand for Christians, A country that declares itself an atheistic state and wages an agenda against those of any type of faith, falls into a catergory of radical atheisim.....Obviously not everybody who is atheist fits under this umbrella.....But the organisation that commited these attrocites indeed stood in favour for atheistic values and surpressed any opposition to it's idelogy.... Hence atheisim has a lot to do with it.

Not as a causal factor, until you demonstrate it.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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2/27/2013 11:01:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 10:45:46 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:26:57 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/27/2013 8:44:43 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 7:24:45 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 2:06:16 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:50:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:48:49 PM, drafterman wrote:
How did atheism "cause" these atrocities?

Excuse me? Are you serious........

Extremely. You see, atheism has no dogma or directives with which to influence someone vis-a-vis religion. If you bothered to look a bit deeper, you could have seen the causal factors here. From the references in that wikipedia article:

"A dogmatic Stalinist, Hoxha considered religion a divisive force and undertook an active campaign against religious institutions,"

The anti-religious fervor game from Hoxha's Stalinism. Both Hoxha's atheism and his anti-theism, were an effect of his "dogmatic" Stalinism. Now, I'm not a Stalinist or a Communist, so I can't say to what degree his interpretation of that dogma should have resulted in antitheism, but nevertheless, it did.

You have done little more than display a post hoc fallacy. They were atheists. They were antitheists. Ergo they were antitheists because they were atheists.

That is not an accurate portrayal, as I have just demonstrated. With a scant 5 minutes of looking a bit deeper.

Actually an unwarranted violent oppression on those who practice a religious faith springs to mind.

Caused by dogmatic Stalinism... not atheism.


No, No, No, Still a violent oppression against anybody inclined to a religious faith springs to mind, formed by an alegiance of radical atheistic thought..... Hitler did not try to kill all non Christians and did not stand for Christians, A country that declares itself an atheistic state and wages an agenda against those of any type of faith, falls into a catergory of radical atheisim.....Obviously not everybody who is atheist fits under this umbrella.....But the organisation that commited these attrocites indeed stood in favour for atheistic values and surpressed any opposition to it's idelogy.... Hence atheisim has a lot to do with it.

Not as a causal factor, until you demonstrate it.

What do you mean, if you can not grasp the fact that those who held any type of religious faith were violently opressed by those who wanted to form an atheistic state, then thats your problem, not mine. It has already been demostrated and is history.
tkubok
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2/27/2013 11:05:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 10:26:57 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/27/2013 8:44:43 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 7:24:45 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 2:06:16 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:50:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:48:49 PM, drafterman wrote:
How did atheism "cause" these atrocities?

Excuse me? Are you serious........

Extremely. You see, atheism has no dogma or directives with which to influence someone vis-a-vis religion. If you bothered to look a bit deeper, you could have seen the causal factors here. From the references in that wikipedia article:

"A dogmatic Stalinist, Hoxha considered religion a divisive force and undertook an active campaign against religious institutions,"

The anti-religious fervor game from Hoxha's Stalinism. Both Hoxha's atheism and his anti-theism, were an effect of his "dogmatic" Stalinism. Now, I'm not a Stalinist or a Communist, so I can't say to what degree his interpretation of that dogma should have resulted in antitheism, but nevertheless, it did.

You have done little more than display a post hoc fallacy. They were atheists. They were antitheists. Ergo they were antitheists because they were atheists.

That is not an accurate portrayal, as I have just demonstrated. With a scant 5 minutes of looking a bit deeper.

Actually an unwarranted violent oppression on those who practice a religious faith springs to mind.

Caused by dogmatic Stalinism... not atheism.


No, No, No, Still a violent oppression against anybody inclined to a religious faith springs to mind, formed by an alegiance of radical atheistic thought..... Hitler did not try to kill all non Christians and did not stand for Christians, A country that declares itself an atheistic state and wages an agenda against those of any type of faith, falls into a catergory of radical atheisim.....Obviously not everybody who is atheist fits under this umbrella.....But the organisation that commited these attrocites indeed stood in favour for atheistic values and surpressed any opposition to it's idelogy.... Hence atheisim has a lot to do with it.

There is no such thing as atheistic values, just like there is no such thing as theistic values. Is there a thing outside of the belief of the existance of God, that ALL theists can agree upon? Clearly not. Just like there isnt anything outside the disbelief of a God, that all atheists can agree on.

Its also not an ideology. An ideology needs to be a group, a body of beliefs and doctrine. Atheism is a single disbelief. You cannot call a single thing a group, a collection.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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2/27/2013 11:20:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 11:05:19 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:26:57 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/27/2013 8:44:43 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 7:24:45 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 2:06:16 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:50:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:48:49 PM, drafterman wrote:
How did atheism "cause" these atrocities?

Excuse me? Are you serious........

Extremely. You see, atheism has no dogma or directives with which to influence someone vis-a-vis religion. If you bothered to look a bit deeper, you could have seen the causal factors here. From the references in that wikipedia article:

"A dogmatic Stalinist, Hoxha considered religion a divisive force and undertook an active campaign against religious institutions,"

The anti-religious fervor game from Hoxha's Stalinism. Both Hoxha's atheism and his anti-theism, were an effect of his "dogmatic" Stalinism. Now, I'm not a Stalinist or a Communist, so I can't say to what degree his interpretation of that dogma should have resulted in antitheism, but nevertheless, it did.

You have done little more than display a post hoc fallacy. They were atheists. They were antitheists. Ergo they were antitheists because they were atheists.

That is not an accurate portrayal, as I have just demonstrated. With a scant 5 minutes of looking a bit deeper.

Actually an unwarranted violent oppression on those who practice a religious faith springs to mind.

Caused by dogmatic Stalinism... not atheism.


No, No, No, Still a violent oppression against anybody inclined to a religious faith springs to mind, formed by an alegiance of radical atheistic thought..... Hitler did not try to kill all non Christians and did not stand for Christians, A country that declares itself an atheistic state and wages an agenda against those of any type of faith, falls into a catergory of radical atheisim.....Obviously not everybody who is atheist fits under this umbrella.....But the organisation that commited these attrocites indeed stood in favour for atheistic values and surpressed any opposition to it's idelogy.... Hence atheisim has a lot to do with it.

There is no such thing as atheistic values, just like there is no such thing as theistic values. Is there a thing outside of the belief of the existance of God, that ALL theists can agree upon? Clearly not. Just like there isnt anything outside the disbelief of a God, that all atheists can agree on.

Its also not an ideology. An ideology needs to be a group, a body of beliefs and doctrine. Atheism is a single disbelief. You cannot call a single thing a group, a collection.

All those who hold no belif, ie atheists, vilolently opressed all those who held belief, ie people of faith.....Simple.
tkubok
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2/27/2013 11:22:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 11:20:01 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/27/2013 11:05:19 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:26:57 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/27/2013 8:44:43 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 7:24:45 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 2:06:16 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:50:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:48:49 PM, drafterman wrote:
How did atheism "cause" these atrocities?

Excuse me? Are you serious........

Extremely. You see, atheism has no dogma or directives with which to influence someone vis-a-vis religion. If you bothered to look a bit deeper, you could have seen the causal factors here. From the references in that wikipedia article:

"A dogmatic Stalinist, Hoxha considered religion a divisive force and undertook an active campaign against religious institutions,"

The anti-religious fervor game from Hoxha's Stalinism. Both Hoxha's atheism and his anti-theism, were an effect of his "dogmatic" Stalinism. Now, I'm not a Stalinist or a Communist, so I can't say to what degree his interpretation of that dogma should have resulted in antitheism, but nevertheless, it did.

You have done little more than display a post hoc fallacy. They were atheists. They were antitheists. Ergo they were antitheists because they were atheists.

That is not an accurate portrayal, as I have just demonstrated. With a scant 5 minutes of looking a bit deeper.

Actually an unwarranted violent oppression on those who practice a religious faith springs to mind.

Caused by dogmatic Stalinism... not atheism.


No, No, No, Still a violent oppression against anybody inclined to a religious faith springs to mind, formed by an alegiance of radical atheistic thought..... Hitler did not try to kill all non Christians and did not stand for Christians, A country that declares itself an atheistic state and wages an agenda against those of any type of faith, falls into a catergory of radical atheisim.....Obviously not everybody who is atheist fits under this umbrella.....But the organisation that commited these attrocites indeed stood in favour for atheistic values and surpressed any opposition to it's idelogy.... Hence atheisim has a lot to do with it.

There is no such thing as atheistic values, just like there is no such thing as theistic values. Is there a thing outside of the belief of the existance of God, that ALL theists can agree upon? Clearly not. Just like there isnt anything outside the disbelief of a God, that all atheists can agree on.

Its also not an ideology. An ideology needs to be a group, a body of beliefs and doctrine. Atheism is a single disbelief. You cannot call a single thing a group, a collection.

All those who hold no belif, ie atheists, vilolently opressed all those who held belief, ie people of faith.....Simple.

First you say "Not everybody who is atheist fits under this umbrella", and now you say that all atheists do.

Stop contradicting yourself.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/27/2013 11:30:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 11:01:39 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:45:46 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:26:57 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/27/2013 8:44:43 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 7:24:45 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 2:06:16 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:50:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:48:49 PM, drafterman wrote:
How did atheism "cause" these atrocities?

Excuse me? Are you serious........

Extremely. You see, atheism has no dogma or directives with which to influence someone vis-a-vis religion. If you bothered to look a bit deeper, you could have seen the causal factors here. From the references in that wikipedia article:

"A dogmatic Stalinist, Hoxha considered religion a divisive force and undertook an active campaign against religious institutions,"

The anti-religious fervor game from Hoxha's Stalinism. Both Hoxha's atheism and his anti-theism, were an effect of his "dogmatic" Stalinism. Now, I'm not a Stalinist or a Communist, so I can't say to what degree his interpretation of that dogma should have resulted in antitheism, but nevertheless, it did.

You have done little more than display a post hoc fallacy. They were atheists. They were antitheists. Ergo they were antitheists because they were atheists.

That is not an accurate portrayal, as I have just demonstrated. With a scant 5 minutes of looking a bit deeper.

Actually an unwarranted violent oppression on those who practice a religious faith springs to mind.

Caused by dogmatic Stalinism... not atheism.


No, No, No, Still a violent oppression against anybody inclined to a religious faith springs to mind, formed by an alegiance of radical atheistic thought..... Hitler did not try to kill all non Christians and did not stand for Christians, A country that declares itself an atheistic state and wages an agenda against those of any type of faith, falls into a catergory of radical atheisim.....Obviously not everybody who is atheist fits under this umbrella.....But the organisation that commited these attrocites indeed stood in favour for atheistic values and surpressed any opposition to it's idelogy.... Hence atheisim has a lot to do with it.

Not as a causal factor, until you demonstrate it.

What do you mean, if you can not grasp the fact that those who held any type of religious faith were violently opressed by those who wanted to form an atheistic state, then thats your problem, not mine. It has already been demostrated and is history.

They wanted to form a Stalinist state. Certainly atheism is a component of that ideaology but, as I already said both atheism and anti-theism were effects of this "dogmatic Stalinism."

Do you have a refutation of that, or are you just going to repeat yourself?
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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2/27/2013 11:56:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The people who oppressed the Albanian religious groups *believed* things about the role that religion played in society, and thought certain things should be done to repress religion. These beliefs, in effect, were called "state atheism".

Atheism, per se, isn't a set of beliefs. As has already been said, it's not an ideology. It's simply the failure to believe certain claims - it's doubt.

Consequently, an atheist can be a Marx, a Rand, a Stalin, a Gates, a Sagan, etc. It binds you to no belief. Instead it simply frees you from the barbarism of the past.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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2/27/2013 12:24:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
http://books.google.com...
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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2/27/2013 12:39:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 11:56:24 AM, vbaculum wrote:
The people who oppressed the Albanian religious groups *believed* things about the role that religion played in society, and thought certain things should be done to repress religion. These beliefs, in effect, were called "state atheism".

Atheism, per se, isn't a set of beliefs. As has already been said, it's not an ideology. It's simply the failure to believe certain claims - it's doubt.

Consequently, an atheist can be a Marx, a Rand, a Stalin, a Gates, a Sagan, etc. It binds you to no belief. Instead it simply frees you from the barbarism of the past.

However you wish to define it, But for me it's pretty simple and clear....... Albania declares itself an atheistic state, opressing and imprisoning and even torturing people of faith, stooping as low as offering food to children in schools to smoke out those who refrain from certain foods due to a religious ceremony.........

Yes they were atheistic in thought in that they rejected any belief held of deity by the public and even punished them for it...... Whats hard to undertsand or figure out about that.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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2/27/2013 12:43:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 11:30:15 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 11:01:39 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:45:46 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:26:57 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/27/2013 8:44:43 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 7:24:45 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 2:06:16 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:50:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:48:49 PM, drafterman wrote:
How did atheism "cause" these atrocities?

Excuse me? Are you serious........

Extremely. You see, atheism has no dogma or directives with which to influence someone vis-a-vis religion. If you bothered to look a bit deeper, you could have seen the causal factors here. From the references in that wikipedia article:

"A dogmatic Stalinist, Hoxha considered religion a divisive force and undertook an active campaign against religious institutions,"

The anti-religious fervor game from Hoxha's Stalinism. Both Hoxha's atheism and his anti-theism, were an effect of his "dogmatic" Stalinism. Now, I'm not a Stalinist or a Communist, so I can't say to what degree his interpretation of that dogma should have resulted in antitheism, but nevertheless, it did.

You have done little more than display a post hoc fallacy. They were atheists. They were antitheists. Ergo they were antitheists because they were atheists.

That is not an accurate portrayal, as I have just demonstrated. With a scant 5 minutes of looking a bit deeper.

Actually an unwarranted violent oppression on those who practice a religious faith springs to mind.

Caused by dogmatic Stalinism... not atheism.


No, No, No, Still a violent oppression against anybody inclined to a religious faith springs to mind, formed by an alegiance of radical atheistic thought..... Hitler did not try to kill all non Christians and did not stand for Christians, A country that declares itself an atheistic state and wages an agenda against those of any type of faith, falls into a catergory of radical atheisim.....Obviously not everybody who is atheist fits under this umbrella.....But the organisation that commited these attrocites indeed stood in favour for atheistic values and surpressed any opposition to it's idelogy.... Hence atheisim has a lot to do with it.

Not as a causal factor, until you demonstrate it.

What do you mean, if you can not grasp the fact that those who held any type of religious faith were violently opressed by those who wanted to form an atheistic state, then thats your problem, not mine. It has already been demostrated and is history.

They wanted to form a Stalinist state. Certainly atheism is a component of that ideaology but, as I already said both atheism and anti-theism were effects of this "dogmatic Stalinism."

Do you have a refutation of that, or are you just going to repeat yourself?

You wish to cloak the fact that all religious people of faith were condemed to practice their belief and were suppressed, even parents were afraid to pass their faith on to thier off spring, for fear of imprisonment or torture, and you want to cloak this behaviour and call it stallinsim.....no...no...no... it's radical atheisim.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/27/2013 12:52:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 12:43:41 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/27/2013 11:30:15 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 11:01:39 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:45:46 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:26:57 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/27/2013 8:44:43 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 7:24:45 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 2:06:16 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:50:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:48:49 PM, drafterman wrote:
How did atheism "cause" these atrocities?

Excuse me? Are you serious........

Extremely. You see, atheism has no dogma or directives with which to influence someone vis-a-vis religion. If you bothered to look a bit deeper, you could have seen the causal factors here. From the references in that wikipedia article:

"A dogmatic Stalinist, Hoxha considered religion a divisive force and undertook an active campaign against religious institutions,"

The anti-religious fervor game from Hoxha's Stalinism. Both Hoxha's atheism and his anti-theism, were an effect of his "dogmatic" Stalinism. Now, I'm not a Stalinist or a Communist, so I can't say to what degree his interpretation of that dogma should have resulted in antitheism, but nevertheless, it did.

You have done little more than display a post hoc fallacy. They were atheists. They were antitheists. Ergo they were antitheists because they were atheists.

That is not an accurate portrayal, as I have just demonstrated. With a scant 5 minutes of looking a bit deeper.

Actually an unwarranted violent oppression on those who practice a religious faith springs to mind.

Caused by dogmatic Stalinism... not atheism.


No, No, No, Still a violent oppression against anybody inclined to a religious faith springs to mind, formed by an alegiance of radical atheistic thought..... Hitler did not try to kill all non Christians and did not stand for Christians, A country that declares itself an atheistic state and wages an agenda against those of any type of faith, falls into a catergory of radical atheisim.....Obviously not everybody who is atheist fits under this umbrella.....But the organisation that commited these attrocites indeed stood in favour for atheistic values and surpressed any opposition to it's idelogy.... Hence atheisim has a lot to do with it.

Not as a causal factor, until you demonstrate it.

What do you mean, if you can not grasp the fact that those who held any type of religious faith were violently opressed by those who wanted to form an atheistic state, then thats your problem, not mine. It has already been demostrated and is history.

They wanted to form a Stalinist state. Certainly atheism is a component of that ideaology but, as I already said both atheism and anti-theism were effects of this "dogmatic Stalinism."

Do you have a refutation of that, or are you just going to repeat yourself?



You wish to cloak the fact that all religious people of faith were condemed to practice their belief and were suppressed, even parents were afraid to pass their faith on to thier off spring, for fear of imprisonment or torture,

I'm not cloaking that at all. I'm not denying that claim. I am disputing the cause, not the effect.

and you want to cloak this behaviour and call it stallinsim.....no...no...no... it's radical atheisim.

Hey, moron, your source calls it that. Your source. The source you provided does that. All I did was find the source you were using and looked a bit deeper. Are you even paying attention?
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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2/27/2013 1:06:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 12:52:03 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 12:43:41 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/27/2013 11:30:15 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 11:01:39 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:45:46 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:26:57 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/27/2013 8:44:43 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 7:24:45 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 2:06:16 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:50:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:48:49 PM, drafterman wrote:
How did atheism "cause" these atrocities?

Excuse me? Are you serious........

Extremely. You see, atheism has no dogma or directives with which to influence someone vis-a-vis religion. If you bothered to look a bit deeper, you could have seen the causal factors here. From the references in that wikipedia article:

"A dogmatic Stalinist, Hoxha considered religion a divisive force and undertook an active campaign against religious institutions,"

The anti-religious fervor game from Hoxha's Stalinism. Both Hoxha's atheism and his anti-theism, were an effect of his "dogmatic" Stalinism. Now, I'm not a Stalinist or a Communist, so I can't say to what degree his interpretation of that dogma should have resulted in antitheism, but nevertheless, it did.

You have done little more than display a post hoc fallacy. They were atheists. They were antitheists. Ergo they were antitheists because they were atheists.

That is not an accurate portrayal, as I have just demonstrated. With a scant 5 minutes of looking a bit deeper.

Actually an unwarranted violent oppression on those who practice a religious faith springs to mind.

Caused by dogmatic Stalinism... not atheism.


No, No, No, Still a violent oppression against anybody inclined to a religious faith springs to mind, formed by an alegiance of radical atheistic thought..... Hitler did not try to kill all non Christians and did not stand for Christians, A country that declares itself an atheistic state and wages an agenda against those of any type of faith, falls into a catergory of radical atheisim.....Obviously not everybody who is atheist fits under this umbrella.....But the organisation that commited these attrocites indeed stood in favour for atheistic values and surpressed any opposition to it's idelogy.... Hence atheisim has a lot to do with it.

Not as a causal factor, until you demonstrate it.

What do you mean, if you can not grasp the fact that those who held any type of religious faith were violently opressed by those who wanted to form an atheistic state, then thats your problem, not mine. It has already been demostrated and is history.

They wanted to form a Stalinist state. Certainly atheism is a component of that ideaology but, as I already said both atheism and anti-theism were effects of this "dogmatic Stalinism."

Do you have a refutation of that, or are you just going to repeat yourself?



You wish to cloak the fact that all religious people of faith were condemed to practice their belief and were suppressed, even parents were afraid to pass their faith on to thier off spring, for fear of imprisonment or torture,

I'm not cloaking that at all. I'm not denying that claim. I am disputing the cause, not the effect.

and you want to cloak this behaviour and call it stallinsim.....no...no...no... it's radical atheisim.

Hey, moron, your source calls it that. Your source. The source you provided does that. All I did was find the source you were using and looked a bit deeper. Are you even paying attention?

The cause is an atheistic state, which you wish to cloak in the name of stalinism, The cause is an atheistic state, that wished to eridicate any or all peoples of faith.....You are the moron.......Read a little deeper. Yes it does claim to be a stalinistic agenda, but the effects are very radical and deeply atheistic in nature....

I know what lets call a whole country that punishes anybody who has any type of faith a stalinistc agenda.... Get real buddy. it's an athesitic agenda.

Ps be glad you an old man who can get his kicks from insulting people over a keyboard, if you were to conduct yourself to my face like that, I would lay you out flat on your back.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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2/27/2013 1:12:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/27/2013 1:06:37 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/27/2013 12:52:03 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 12:43:41 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/27/2013 11:30:15 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 11:01:39 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:45:46 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 10:26:57 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/27/2013 8:44:43 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/27/2013 7:24:45 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 2:06:16 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:50:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/26/2013 1:48:49 PM, drafterman wrote:
How did atheism "cause" these atrocities?

Excuse me? Are you serious........

Extremely. You see, atheism has no dogma or directives with which to influence someone vis-a-vis religion. If you bothered to look a bit deeper, you could have seen the causal factors here. From the references in that wikipedia article:

"A dogmatic Stalinist, Hoxha considered religion a divisive force and undertook an active campaign against religious institutions,"

The anti-religious fervor game from Hoxha's Stalinism. Both Hoxha's atheism and his anti-theism, were an effect of his "dogmatic" Stalinism. Now, I'm not a Stalinist or a Communist, so I can't say to what degree his interpretation of that dogma should have resulted in antitheism, but nevertheless, it did.

You have done little more than display a post hoc fallacy. They were atheists. They were antitheists. Ergo they were antitheists because they were atheists.

That is not an accurate portrayal, as I have just demonstrated. With a scant 5 minutes of looking a bit deeper.

Actually an unwarranted violent oppression on those who practice a religious faith springs to mind.

Caused by dogmatic Stalinism... not atheism.


No, No, No, Still a violent oppression against anybody inclined to a religious faith springs to mind, formed by an alegiance of radical atheistic thought..... Hitler did not try to kill all non Christians and did not stand for Christians, A country that declares itself an atheistic state and wages an agenda against those of any type of faith, falls into a catergory of radical atheisim.....Obviously not everybody who is atheist fits under this umbrella.....But the organisation that commited these attrocites indeed stood in favour for atheistic values and surpressed any opposition to it's idelogy.... Hence atheisim has a lot to do with it.

Not as a causal factor, until you demonstrate it.

What do you mean, if you can not grasp the fact that those who held any type of religious faith were violently opressed by those who wanted to form an atheistic state, then thats your problem, not mine. It has already been demostrated and is history.

They wanted to form a Stalinist state. Certainly atheism is a component of that ideaology but, as I already said both atheism and anti-theism were effects of this "dogmatic Stalinism."

Do you have a refutation of that, or are you just going to repeat yourself?



You wish to cloak the fact that all religious people of faith were condemed to practice their belief and were suppressed, even parents were afraid to pass their faith on to thier off spring, for fear of imprisonment or torture,

I'm not cloaking that at all. I'm not denying that claim. I am disputing the cause, not the effect.

and you want to cloak this behaviour and call it stallinsim.....no...no...no... it's radical atheisim.

Hey, moron, your source calls it that. Your source. The source you provided does that. All I did was find the source you were using and looked a bit deeper. Are you even paying attention?

The cause is an atheistic state, which you wish to cloak in the name of stalinism, The cause is an atheistic state, that wished to eridicate any or all peoples of faith.....You are the moron.......Read a little deeper. Yes it does claim to be a stalinistic agenda, but the effects are very radical and deeply atheistic in nature....




I know what lets call a whole country that punishes anybody who has any type of faith a stalinistc agenda.... Get real buddy. it's an athesitic agenda.



Ps be glad you an old man who can get his kicks from insulting people over a keyboard, if you were to conduct yourself to my face like that, I would lay you out flat on your back.

If a christian commits a murder, is it Theism thats at fault?