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Christians: convince me that God exists. Go.

KeytarHero
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3/3/2013 10:15:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 8:27:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
What would you say is the most conclusive evidence or reasoning suggesting God exists (Christian God).

What kind of evidence would you find most compelling?
dylancatlow
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3/3/2013 10:25:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 10:15:06 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 3/3/2013 8:27:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
What would you say is the most conclusive evidence or reasoning suggesting God exists (Christian God).

What kind of evidence would you find most compelling?

The best you got.
qopel
Posts: 150
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3/3/2013 10:47:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I would argue that if God wanted to provide me evidence that he existed, there would be no way to stop it from happening and there would be no doubt that the evidence would be convincing. So, God either doesn't want me to know he exists, or he doesn't have the means to prove he exists.

The third option is he just doesn't exist.
malcolmxy
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3/3/2013 11:04:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 8:27:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
What would you say is the most conclusive evidence or reasoning suggesting God exists (Christian God).

I'm not a Christian, but here's a matrix (as best as I can construct it here) that I might use if I were:

___________________________________________

You're right -

If you do nothing (i.e. do not convert), you have no soul and your existence ends when you die.

If you do something (i.e. convert to Christianity), you have no soul and your existence ends when you die.

Christians are right -

If you do nothing (i.e. do not convert), you do have a soul, and that soul will spend an eternity in hell.

If you do something (i.e. convert to Christianity), you do have a soul and that soul will spend an eternity in the bliss of heaven.

_________________________________________________

The only sensible solution to this dilemma, since there are no consequences to your conversion if you're right, and dire consequences if you're wrong, would be to convert to Christianity.
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malcolmxy
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3/3/2013 11:08:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't believe that, but it is a good bit of reasoning that Christians could use to convince people to convert.

It doesn't prove God's existence, but it does show that it would be more reasonable for you to believe in God, than not believe in God, regardless.
War is over, if you want it.

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Rational_Thinker9119
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3/3/2013 11:12:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 11:04:23 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 3/3/2013 8:27:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
What would you say is the most conclusive evidence or reasoning suggesting God exists (Christian God).

I'm not a Christian, but here's a matrix (as best as I can construct it here) that I might use if I were:

___________________________________________

You're right -

If you do nothing (i.e. do not convert), you have no soul and your existence ends when you die.

If you do something (i.e. convert to Christianity), you have no soul and your existence ends when you die.

Christians are right -

If you do nothing (i.e. do not convert), you do have a soul, and that soul will spend an eternity in hell.

If you do something (i.e. convert to Christianity), you do have a soul and that soul will spend an eternity in the bliss of heaven.

_________________________________________________

The only sensible solution to this dilemma, since there are no consequences to your conversion if you're right, and dire consequences if you're wrong, would be to convert to Christianity.

Pascals wager has been debunked several times. What if the real God isn't Christian, and would take offense to claiming he is? What if God really favors free thinkers who do what they want regardless of fear of hell, and all the sheep who believed in God just due to fear of hell perish? There are literally tons of options with regards to what god is like, none of which have to conform to a strict Christian version of God.
malcolmxy
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3/3/2013 11:21:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 11:12:31 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:04:23 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 3/3/2013 8:27:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
What would you say is the most conclusive evidence or reasoning suggesting God exists (Christian God).

I'm not a Christian, but here's a matrix (as best as I can construct it here) that I might use if I were:

___________________________________________

You're right -

If you do nothing (i.e. do not convert), you have no soul and your existence ends when you die.

If you do something (i.e. convert to Christianity), you have no soul and your existence ends when you die.

Christians are right -

If you do nothing (i.e. do not convert), you do have a soul, and that soul will spend an eternity in hell.

If you do something (i.e. convert to Christianity), you do have a soul and that soul will spend an eternity in the bliss of heaven.

_________________________________________________

The only sensible solution to this dilemma, since there are no consequences to your conversion if you're right, and dire consequences if you're wrong, would be to convert to Christianity.

Pascals wager has been debunked several times. What if the real God isn't Christian, and would take offense to claiming he is? What if God really favors free thinkers who do what they want regardless of fear of hell, and all the sheep who believed in God just due to fear of hell perish? There are literally tons of options with regards to what god is like, none of which have to conform to a strict Christian version of God.

Please re-review the EXACT parameters I used. I swear to the God I don't believe exists, I know what I'm doing here.
War is over, if you want it.

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Skynet
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3/4/2013 12:12:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 8:27:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
What would you say is the most conclusive evidence or reasoning suggesting God exists (Christian God).

Without quoting the whole thing: Read the Bible. That's where we get all our authority from, is God's word. It's usually suggested that you start in the Gospel of John. It's not that long, and it reads easily if you use a modern English translation like the NIV. Tell me what you think. I'll turn messaging back on.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
THEVIRUS
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3/4/2013 1:09:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Christians, beat this and you convince me.
"So you want me to go to the judge with 'unit, corps, God, country'?" - A Few Good Men

"And the hits just keep on comin'." -A Few Good Men
Sidewalker
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3/4/2013 3:18:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 8:27:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
What would you say is the most conclusive evidence or reasoning suggesting God exists (Christian God).

Perhaps you've heard the word "faith" associated with belief n God, it's a choice rather than an evidence based conclusion. Faith in not the acceptance of propositions on authority, it is not theoretical acceptance, it is a commitment to a discernment. The basis of faith is not inferential reason, it is personal encounter.

That said, here is the reasoning.

While the Theistic conclusion in not logically coercive, it does provide an intellectually satisfying way of making sense of the broadest possible band of human experience, of uniting in a single account, the rich and many layered encounter that we have with a reality that is experienced as full of value.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
suttichart.denpruektham
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3/4/2013 5:14:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 8:27:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
What would you say is the most conclusive evidence or reasoning suggesting God exists (Christian God).

Actually i think there are three burden of proves that you need to make before arguing that Christian god (god that Christian believed) do exist.

1.Prove that there is a soul.

2. Prove that there are a heaven and hell that you will go in state of soul.

3. Prove that god forgiveness can prevent you from hell.

Do that and you can prove that Christian god existed.
wiploc
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3/4/2013 10:44:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 11:04:23 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
I'm not a Christian, but here's a matrix (as best as I can construct it here) that I might use if I were:

___________________________________________

You're right -

If you do nothing (i.e. do not convert), you have no soul and your existence ends when you die.

If you do something (i.e. convert to Christianity), you have no soul and your existence ends when you die.

Christians are right -

If you do nothing (i.e. do not convert), you do have a soul, and that soul will spend an eternity in hell.

If you do something (i.e. convert to Christianity), you do have a soul and that soul will spend an eternity in the bliss of heaven.

The above may be the best version of Pascal's dilemma I've ever read. You laid out the two options you want us to consider, but you don't perjure yourself by claiming they are the only two options.

The only sensible solution to this dilemma, since there are no consequences to your conversion if you're right, and dire consequences if you're wrong, would be to convert to Christianity.

Okay, now you're implicitly claiming that there are only two options: if we are wrong, then the Christians are right. At this point, the argument becomes fraudulent.
wiploc
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3/4/2013 10:50:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 12:12:56 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 3/3/2013 8:27:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
What would you say is the most conclusive evidence or reasoning suggesting God exists (Christian God).

Without quoting the whole thing: Read the Bible. That's where we get all our authority from, is God's word. It's usually suggested that you start in the Gospel of John. It's not that long, and it reads easily if you use a modern English translation like the NIV. Tell me what you think. I'll turn messaging back on.

Over at freeratio.org, we had a long thread of atheist testimony: how we came to be atheists. Reading the bible is by far the most common reason Christians lose their religion.
RobDeSenelstun
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3/4/2013 11:33:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 12:12:56 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 3/3/2013 8:27:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
What would you say is the most conclusive evidence or reasoning suggesting God exists (Christian God).

Without quoting the whole thing: Read the Bible. That's where we get all our authority from, is God's word. It's usually suggested that you start in the Gospel of John. It's not that long, and it reads easily if you use a modern English translation like the NIV. Tell me what you think. I'll turn messaging back on.

Yes, definitely start at John, but whatever you do DON'T start at Genesis!!!! This is just as likely to turn you off ALL three abrahamic religions...for life.

Read the Bible? That's the same advice I give to become an atheist...finally I agree with a christian.
AlbinoBunny
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3/4/2013 11:48:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Pascal's wager doesn't work. For me, anyway, religious texts are boring and silly. There needs to be a mini-book of best bits.

Proving a God is real in my opinion would be the easy part, the hard part is proving the motives of said God.
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Pennington
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3/4/2013 11:50:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 10:47:28 PM, qopel wrote:
I would argue that if God wanted to provide me evidence that he existed, there would be no way to stop it from happening and there would be no doubt that the evidence would be convincing. So, God either doesn't want me to know he exists, or he doesn't have the means to prove he exists.

The third option is he just doesn't exist.:

Maybe your eyes are shut.
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bossyburrito
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3/4/2013 11:52:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 11:04:23 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 3/3/2013 8:27:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
What would you say is the most conclusive evidence or reasoning suggesting God exists (Christian God).

I'm not a Christian, but here's a matrix (as best as I can construct it here) that I might use if I were:

___________________________________________

You're right -

If you do nothing (i.e. do not convert), you have no soul and your existence ends when you die.

If you do something (i.e. convert to Christianity), you have no soul and your existence ends when you die.

Christians are right -

If you do nothing (i.e. do not convert), you do have a soul, and that soul will spend an eternity in hell.

If you do something (i.e. convert to Christianity), you do have a soul and that soul will spend an eternity in the bliss of heaven.

_________________________________________________

The only sensible solution to this dilemma, since there are no consequences to your conversion if you're right, and dire consequences if you're wrong, would be to convert to Christianity.

What if there is some other God that exists that will, if you convert to Christianity, torture you in flames for eternity?
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Pennington
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3/4/2013 12:08:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 8:27:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
What would you say is the most conclusive evidence or reasoning suggesting God exists (Christian God).:

The best evidence you can ever have happens after you start believing. Let's be clear it is God's intent to not have the absolute evidence to prove His existence to everyone. This is verified in the Bible by constantly stating in faith and belief in God. Too have those there must be reason for doubt. So there is a few stances that people can take. 1. Full belief, 2. Will not accept it because and 3. I don't know. It becomes impossible for any believer to convert number 2 until that person turns into 3. Number 3 is acceptable to convert and has become honest with themselves. This doesn't mean they will convert but they have given it a possibility. The confusion and rejection of this belief is because of Christians total disbelief and denial of the modern standard creation and evolution scenarios. Then it comes down too Christians having faith and belief in what they believe regardless of what any man says about it because we have given our belief and faith to something higher than man. The non-believer will not do that and by all means can not in some cases.
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Pennington
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3/4/2013 12:14:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 10:44:07 AM, wiploc wrote:
if we are wrong, then the Christians are right. At this point, the argument becomes fraudulent.:

Why?How? Someone is right and for your opinion to be fraudulent is impossible? I don't think so. There is always the possibility for someone to be wrong but because someone feels they are not wrong doesn't make their option fraudulent. Matter fact it sticks with the standard by their testimony. Most people want the truth not anything that could be or admit too being wrong. Christianity standands up to that high standard by its believers. Science constantly fails this standard test.
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AlbinoBunny
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3/4/2013 12:21:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 12:14:08 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/4/2013 10:44:07 AM, wiploc wrote:
if we are wrong, then the Christians are right. At this point, the argument becomes fraudulent.:

Why?How? Someone is right and for your opinion to be fraudulent is impossible? I don't think so. There is always the possibility for someone to be wrong but because someone feels they are not wrong doesn't make their option fraudulent. Matter fact it sticks with the standard by their testimony. Most people want the truth not anything that could be or admit too being wrong. Christianity standands up to that high standard by its believers. Science constantly fails this standard test.

Because it's then a false dichotomy, there are more choices than:
1. No God(s)
2. Christian God

That is the crux of the problem.
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Pennington
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3/4/2013 12:21:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 5:14:29 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 3/3/2013 8:27:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
What would you say is the most conclusive evidence or reasoning suggesting God exists (Christian God).

Actually i think there are three burden of proves that you need to make before arguing that Christian god (god that Christian believed) do exist.:
No, we have no burden of proofs. When one finds God they have fulfilled their BOP for themselves. As Christians we have the responsibility to lead people to Christ but that doesn't in any way make the BOP because the person makes that judgement for themselves. All a Christians can do is help the willing not convert the un-willing.

1.Prove that there is a soul.:
Again, a judgement call on the person.

2. Prove that there are a heaven and hell that you will go in state of soul.:
Breaking it down to the basic terms of joy and pain in some after-life then it becomes a opinion to the person.

3. Prove that god forgiveness can prevent you from hell.:
Well if you could prove 1 & 2 then this one should be a given. If there is a God who constructed the Bible and all thats in it then it should be a given that God can prevent you from the Bible described hell.

Do that and you can prove that Christian god existed.:
Then you have the job for allowing yourself into believing what your told from the Bible and take less creditability of modern men.
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Pennington
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3/4/2013 12:22:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 10:50:13 AM, wiploc wrote:
At 3/4/2013 12:12:56 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 3/3/2013 8:27:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
What would you say is the most conclusive evidence or reasoning suggesting God exists (Christian God).

Without quoting the whole thing: Read the Bible. That's where we get all our authority from, is God's word. It's usually suggested that you start in the Gospel of John. It's not that long, and it reads easily if you use a modern English translation like the NIV. Tell me what you think. I'll turn messaging back on.

Over at freeratio.org, we had a long thread of atheist testimony: how we came to be atheists. Reading the bible is by far the most common reason Christians lose their religion.:

Or its modern science.
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Pennington
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3/4/2013 12:29:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 12:21:12 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/4/2013 12:14:08 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/4/2013 10:44:07 AM, wiploc wrote:
if we are wrong, then the Christians are right. At this point, the argument becomes fraudulent.:

Why?How? Someone is right and for your opinion to be fraudulent is impossible? I don't think so. There is always the possibility for someone to be wrong but because someone feels they are not wrong doesn't make their option fraudulent. Matter fact it sticks with the standard by their testimony. Most people want the truth not anything that could be or admit too being wrong. Christianity standands up to that high standard by its believers. Science constantly fails this standard test.

Because it's then a false dichotomy, there are more choices than:
1. No God(s)
2. Christian God

That is the crux of the problem.:
You worded the equation wrong. Because it starts with either God exist or He doesn't which is two options. Then the when God is established then more options are given by all the Gods. Then you determine which is the real God.
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AlbinoBunny
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3/4/2013 12:35:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 12:29:19 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/4/2013 12:21:12 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/4/2013 12:14:08 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/4/2013 10:44:07 AM, wiploc wrote:
if we are wrong, then the Christians are right. At this point, the argument becomes fraudulent.:

Why?How? Someone is right and for your opinion to be fraudulent is impossible? I don't think so. There is always the possibility for someone to be wrong but because someone feels they are not wrong doesn't make their option fraudulent. Matter fact it sticks with the standard by their testimony. Most people want the truth not anything that could be or admit too being wrong. Christianity standands up to that high standard by its believers. Science constantly fails this standard test.

Because it's then a false dichotomy, there are more choices than:
1. No God(s)
2. Christian God

That is the crux of the problem.:
You worded the equation wrong. Because it starts with either God exist or He doesn't which is two options. Then the when God is established then more options are given by all the Gods. Then you determine which is the real God.

And you eventually arrive at the conclusion that the chances of going to "hell" are the same no matter what you believe, try to believe, or agree with. Which is why the wager doesn't work.
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Pennington
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3/4/2013 12:42:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 12:35:29 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/4/2013 12:29:19 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/4/2013 12:21:12 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/4/2013 12:14:08 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/4/2013 10:44:07 AM, wiploc wrote:
if we are wrong, then the Christians are right. At this point, the argument becomes fraudulent.:

Why?How? Someone is right and for your opinion to be fraudulent is impossible? I don't think so. There is always the possibility for someone to be wrong but because someone feels they are not wrong doesn't make their option fraudulent. Matter fact it sticks with the standard by their testimony. Most people want the truth not anything that could be or admit too being wrong. Christianity standands up to that high standard by its believers. Science constantly fails this standard test.

Because it's then a false dichotomy, there are more choices than:
1. No God(s)
2. Christian God

That is the crux of the problem.:
You worded the equation wrong. Because it starts with either God exist or He doesn't which is two options. Then the when God is established then more options are given by all the Gods. Then you determine which is the real God.

And you eventually arrive at the conclusion that the chances of going to "hell" are the same no matter what you believe, try to believe, or agree with. Which is why the wager doesn't work.:

No. Going to hell or not is not part of the wager. You must reconsider that it begins with God or not. Then it comes to which God you belive then what kinda belief that follows that God. Hell is a specific belief so until to you can get to that point of the discussion then your equations are flawed.
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pozessed
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3/4/2013 12:42:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 8:27:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
What would you say is the most conclusive evidence or reasoning suggesting God exists (Christian God).

Do you doubt God exists or just the Christian religions?
medic0506
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3/4/2013 12:50:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 10:47:28 PM, qopel wrote:
I would argue that if God wanted to provide me evidence that he existed, there would be no way to stop it from happening and there would be no doubt that the evidence would be convincing. So, God either doesn't want me to know he exists, or he doesn't have the means to prove he exists.

The third option is he just doesn't exist.

Look at the world around you. What do you suppose the evidence of God would look like?? Would the trees look different?? Something in the air?? What would you expect to find??
Pennington
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3/4/2013 12:52:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 11:52:22 AM, bossyburrito wrote:
What if there is some other God that exists that will, if you convert to Christianity, torture you in flames for eternity?:

That would determine that the Christian God is not the most powerful God.
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