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Free Will

qopel
Posts: 150
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3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/3/2013 11:18:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

You are confusing cause and effect. If God exists (assuming he does, I don't know), the the reason he knows you are going to do 'x', is because you are going to do 'x'. It's not like you are going to do 'x', because God knows you are going to do 'x'. This means, that if God knows from the moment you are born, that you are going to chose Coke over Pepsi at 5:00pm on March 25th 2013, it's because you are going to freely chose (assuming will is free) to pick Coke over Pepsi at 5:00 pm. This means, that just because God knows what you are going to do ahead of time, that doesn't mean that you weren't going to freely chose said thing.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/3/2013 11:22:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Basically, this argument has been debunked multiple times and holds no weight. Just because God knows ahead of time what I am going to freely chose, that doesn't mean I didn't really freely chose it.
qopel
Posts: 150
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3/3/2013 11:23:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 11:18:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

You are confusing cause and effect. If God exists (assuming he does, I don't know), the the reason he knows you are going to do 'x', is because you are going to do 'x'. It's not like you are going to do 'x', because God knows you are going to do 'x'. This means, that if God knows from the moment you are born, that you are going to chose Coke over Pepsi at 5:00pm on March 25th 2013, it's because you are going to freely chose (assuming will is free) to pick Coke over Pepsi at 5:00 pm. This means, that just because God knows what you are going to do ahead of time, that doesn't mean that you weren't going to freely chose said thing.

That's ridiculous. It's not free will if its pre-determined.
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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3/3/2013 11:25:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

What you've described is deistic determinism. The deity isn't necessary for determinism to be a reality.

The answer is that it doesn't matter. You can't sit on a log, waiting for the world to pass you by, so you have to act as if you have free will and that your actions matter, even if you don't, and they don't.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/3/2013 11:26:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 11:23:22 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:18:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

You are confusing cause and effect. If God exists (assuming he does, I don't know), the the reason he knows you are going to do 'x', is because you are going to do 'x'. It's not like you are going to do 'x', because God knows you are going to do 'x'. This means, that if God knows from the moment you are born, that you are going to chose Coke over Pepsi at 5:00pm on March 25th 2013, it's because you are going to freely chose (assuming will is free) to pick Coke over Pepsi at 5:00 pm. This means, that just because God knows what you are going to do ahead of time, that doesn't mean that you weren't going to freely chose said thing.

That's ridiculous. It's not free will if its pre-determined.

It's determined by YOU though, so it is free will. God only knows you will do 'x' in the future, because you will freely chose to do 'x' in the future. The choice to do 'x' is COMPLETELY up to you. If you didn't want to chose Coke over Pepsi, then you wouldn't have, and God would have known you wouldn't have. If God knows you are going to chose Coke, that's because he knows you are going to freely chose Coke.
qopel
Posts: 150
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3/3/2013 11:31:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 11:26:17 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:23:22 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:18:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

You are confusing cause and effect. If God exists (assuming he does, I don't know), the the reason he knows you are going to do 'x', is because you are going to do 'x'. It's not like you are going to do 'x', because God knows you are going to do 'x'. This means, that if God knows from the moment you are born, that you are going to chose Coke over Pepsi at 5:00pm on March 25th 2013, it's because you are going to freely chose (assuming will is free) to pick Coke over Pepsi at 5:00 pm. This means, that just because God knows what you are going to do ahead of time, that doesn't mean that you weren't going to freely chose said thing.

That's ridiculous. It's not free will if its pre-determined.

It's determined by YOU though, so it is free will. God only knows you will do 'x' in the future, because you will freely chose to do 'x' in the future. The choice to do 'x' is COMPLETELY up to you. If you didn't want to chose Coke over Pepsi, then you wouldn't have, and God would have known you wouldn't have. If God knows you are going to chose Coke, that's because he knows you are going to freely chose Coke.

It's not determined by me if God pre-determined it. It may seem to me that it's my free will, but it's pre-determined to fit the outcome God intended.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/3/2013 11:35:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 11:31:02 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:26:17 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:23:22 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:18:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

You are confusing cause and effect. If God exists (assuming he does, I don't know), the the reason he knows you are going to do 'x', is because you are going to do 'x'. It's not like you are going to do 'x', because God knows you are going to do 'x'. This means, that if God knows from the moment you are born, that you are going to chose Coke over Pepsi at 5:00pm on March 25th 2013, it's because you are going to freely chose (assuming will is free) to pick Coke over Pepsi at 5:00 pm. This means, that just because God knows what you are going to do ahead of time, that doesn't mean that you weren't going to freely chose said thing.

That's ridiculous. It's not free will if its pre-determined.

It's determined by YOU though, so it is free will. God only knows you will do 'x' in the future, because you will freely chose to do 'x' in the future. The choice to do 'x' is COMPLETELY up to you. If you didn't want to chose Coke over Pepsi, then you wouldn't have, and God would have known you wouldn't have. If God knows you are going to chose Coke, that's because he knows you are going to freely chose Coke.

It's not determined by me if God pre-determined it. It may seem to me that it's my free will, but it's pre-determined to fit the outcome God intended.

False. God just has the knowledge of the free choice you are going to make, that doesn't mean he controlled the choice you made. Your argument makes no sense.
Suqua
Posts: 433
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3/3/2013 11:36:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

The thing is, is that, you don't know the outcome. But you do know the outcome of certain choices in life. Do that which is against the law and you pay. Do that which brings on early death, and you get earlier death other than the opposite, longer life.
Do you know your outcome on judgement day? You can change the outcome by your choices that have been given to you, to do as you please. The outcome is in your hands to alter, its not fixed unless you fix your choice.
qopel
Posts: 150
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3/3/2013 11:37:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 11:35:14 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:31:02 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:26:17 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:23:22 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:18:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

You are confusing cause and effect. If God exists (assuming he does, I don't know), the the reason he knows you are going to do 'x', is because you are going to do 'x'. It's not like you are going to do 'x', because God knows you are going to do 'x'. This means, that if God knows from the moment you are born, that you are going to chose Coke over Pepsi at 5:00pm on March 25th 2013, it's because you are going to freely chose (assuming will is free) to pick Coke over Pepsi at 5:00 pm. This means, that just because God knows what you are going to do ahead of time, that doesn't mean that you weren't going to freely chose said thing.

That's ridiculous. It's not free will if its pre-determined.

It's determined by YOU though, so it is free will. God only knows you will do 'x' in the future, because you will freely chose to do 'x' in the future. The choice to do 'x' is COMPLETELY up to you. If you didn't want to chose Coke over Pepsi, then you wouldn't have, and God would have known you wouldn't have. If God knows you are going to chose Coke, that's because he knows you are going to freely chose Coke.

It's not determined by me if God pre-determined it. It may seem to me that it's my free will, but it's pre-determined to fit the outcome God intended.

False. God just has the knowledge of the free choice you are going to make, that doesn't mean he controlled the choice you made. Your argument makes no sense.

If God knows an outcome, it can't change unless he wants it to change, not because I want it to change.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/3/2013 11:37:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 11:31:02 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:26:17 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:23:22 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:18:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

You are confusing cause and effect. If God exists (assuming he does, I don't know), the the reason he knows you are going to do 'x', is because you are going to do 'x'. It's not like you are going to do 'x', because God knows you are going to do 'x'. This means, that if God knows from the moment you are born, that you are going to chose Coke over Pepsi at 5:00pm on March 25th 2013, it's because you are going to freely chose (assuming will is free) to pick Coke over Pepsi at 5:00 pm. This means, that just because God knows what you are going to do ahead of time, that doesn't mean that you weren't going to freely chose said thing.

That's ridiculous. It's not free will if its pre-determined.

It's determined by YOU though, so it is free will. God only knows you will do 'x' in the future, because you will freely chose to do 'x' in the future. The choice to do 'x' is COMPLETELY up to you. If you didn't want to chose Coke over Pepsi, then you wouldn't have, and God would have known you wouldn't have. If God knows you are going to chose Coke, that's because he knows you are going to freely chose Coke.

It's not determined by me if God pre-determined it. It may seem to me that it's my free will, but it's pre-determined to fit the outcome God intended.

If you freely chose Coke, then that's why God knew before hand you were going to chose Coke. If you chose Pepsi, then God would have known before hand that you were going to chose Pepsi. God's foreknowledge is dependent upon what you are going to do, not the other way around. You can chose whatever you want, that is what God is going to know beforehand. It's completely up to you, not him.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/3/2013 11:39:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 11:37:26 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:35:14 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:31:02 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:26:17 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:23:22 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:18:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

You are confusing cause and effect. If God exists (assuming he does, I don't know), the the reason he knows you are going to do 'x', is because you are going to do 'x'. It's not like you are going to do 'x', because God knows you are going to do 'x'. This means, that if God knows from the moment you are born, that you are going to chose Coke over Pepsi at 5:00pm on March 25th 2013, it's because you are going to freely chose (assuming will is free) to pick Coke over Pepsi at 5:00 pm. This means, that just because God knows what you are going to do ahead of time, that doesn't mean that you weren't going to freely chose said thing.

That's ridiculous. It's not free will if its pre-determined.

It's determined by YOU though, so it is free will. God only knows you will do 'x' in the future, because you will freely chose to do 'x' in the future. The choice to do 'x' is COMPLETELY up to you. If you didn't want to chose Coke over Pepsi, then you wouldn't have, and God would have known you wouldn't have. If God knows you are going to chose Coke, that's because he knows you are going to freely chose Coke.

It's not determined by me if God pre-determined it. It may seem to me that it's my free will, but it's pre-determined to fit the outcome God intended.

False. God just has the knowledge of the free choice you are going to make, that doesn't mean he controlled the choice you made. Your argument makes no sense.

If God knows an outcome, it can't change unless he wants it to change, not because I want it to change.

If you wanted a different outcome, then God would have known that. His knowledge is based upon your future actions. You can chose whatever you want, that is what God is going to know. It's really simple....
qopel
Posts: 150
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3/3/2013 11:40:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 11:35:14 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:31:02 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:26:17 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:23:22 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:18:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

You are confusing cause and effect. If God exists (assuming he does, I don't know), the the reason he knows you are going to do 'x', is because you are going to do 'x'. It's not like you are going to do 'x', because God knows you are going to do 'x'. This means, that if God knows from the moment you are born, that you are going to chose Coke over Pepsi at 5:00pm on March 25th 2013, it's because you are going to freely chose (assuming will is free) to pick Coke over Pepsi at 5:00 pm. This means, that just because God knows what you are going to do ahead of time, that doesn't mean that you weren't going to freely chose said thing.

That's ridiculous. It's not free will if its pre-determined.

It's determined by YOU though, so it is free will. God only knows you will do 'x' in the future, because you will freely chose to do 'x' in the future. The choice to do 'x' is COMPLETELY up to you. If you didn't want to chose Coke over Pepsi, then you wouldn't have, and God would have known you wouldn't have. If God knows you are going to chose Coke, that's because he knows you are going to freely chose Coke.

It's not determined by me if God pre-determined it. It may seem to me that it's my free will, but it's pre-determined to fit the outcome God intended.

False. God just has the knowledge of the free choice you are going to make, that doesn't mean he controlled the choice you made. Your argument makes no sense.

You make no sense. If God knows the choice I'm going to make, it's not a free choice. It's a pre-determined choice. Nice try.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/3/2013 11:43:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 11:40:56 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:35:14 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:31:02 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:26:17 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:23:22 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:18:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

You are confusing cause and effect. If God exists (assuming he does, I don't know), the the reason he knows you are going to do 'x', is because you are going to do 'x'. It's not like you are going to do 'x', because God knows you are going to do 'x'. This means, that if God knows from the moment you are born, that you are going to chose Coke over Pepsi at 5:00pm on March 25th 2013, it's because you are going to freely chose (assuming will is free) to pick Coke over Pepsi at 5:00 pm. This means, that just because God knows what you are going to do ahead of time, that doesn't mean that you weren't going to freely chose said thing.

That's ridiculous. It's not free will if its pre-determined.

It's determined by YOU though, so it is free will. God only knows you will do 'x' in the future, because you will freely chose to do 'x' in the future. The choice to do 'x' is COMPLETELY up to you. If you didn't want to chose Coke over Pepsi, then you wouldn't have, and God would have known you wouldn't have. If God knows you are going to chose Coke, that's because he knows you are going to freely chose Coke.

It's not determined by me if God pre-determined it. It may seem to me that it's my free will, but it's pre-determined to fit the outcome God intended.

False. God just has the knowledge of the free choice you are going to make, that doesn't mean he controlled the choice you made. Your argument makes no sense.

You make no sense. If God knows the choice I'm going to make, it's not a free choice. It's a pre-determined choice. Nice try.

That's the most moronic thing I've read on this site. Just because God knows before hand what your free choice is going to be, that doesn't mean that what you chose wasn't a free choice. That's a non-sequitur, which is a logical fallacy. So, nice try. Your argument is incoherent and embarrassing.
qopel
Posts: 150
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3/3/2013 11:47:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 11:43:05 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:40:56 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:35:14 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:31:02 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:26:17 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:23:22 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:18:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

You are confusing cause and effect. If God exists (assuming he does, I don't know), the the reason he knows you are going to do 'x', is because you are going to do 'x'. It's not like you are going to do 'x', because God knows you are going to do 'x'. This means, that if God knows from the moment you are born, that you are going to chose Coke over Pepsi at 5:00pm on March 25th 2013, it's because you are going to freely chose (assuming will is free) to pick Coke over Pepsi at 5:00 pm. This means, that just because God knows what you are going to do ahead of time, that doesn't mean that you weren't going to freely chose said thing.

That's ridiculous. It's not free will if its pre-determined.

It's determined by YOU though, so it is free will. God only knows you will do 'x' in the future, because you will freely chose to do 'x' in the future. The choice to do 'x' is COMPLETELY up to you. If you didn't want to chose Coke over Pepsi, then you wouldn't have, and God would have known you wouldn't have. If God knows you are going to chose Coke, that's because he knows you are going to freely chose Coke.

It's not determined by me if God pre-determined it. It may seem to me that it's my free will, but it's pre-determined to fit the outcome God intended.

False. God just has the knowledge of the free choice you are going to make, that doesn't mean he controlled the choice you made. Your argument makes no sense.

You make no sense. If God knows the choice I'm going to make, it's not a free choice. It's a pre-determined choice. Nice try.

That's the most moronic thing I've read on this site. Just because God knows before hand what your free choice is going to be, that doesn't mean that what you chose wasn't a free choice. That's a non-sequitur, which is a logical fallacy. So, nice try. Your argument is incoherent and embarrassing.

If you have to resort to ad hominem attacks, you admit defeat.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/3/2013 11:48:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 11:47:42 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:43:05 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:40:56 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:35:14 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:31:02 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:26:17 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:23:22 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:18:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

You are confusing cause and effect. If God exists (assuming he does, I don't know), the the reason he knows you are going to do 'x', is because you are going to do 'x'. It's not like you are going to do 'x', because God knows you are going to do 'x'. This means, that if God knows from the moment you are born, that you are going to chose Coke over Pepsi at 5:00pm on March 25th 2013, it's because you are going to freely chose (assuming will is free) to pick Coke over Pepsi at 5:00 pm. This means, that just because God knows what you are going to do ahead of time, that doesn't mean that you weren't going to freely chose said thing.

That's ridiculous. It's not free will if its pre-determined.

It's determined by YOU though, so it is free will. God only knows you will do 'x' in the future, because you will freely chose to do 'x' in the future. The choice to do 'x' is COMPLETELY up to you. If you didn't want to chose Coke over Pepsi, then you wouldn't have, and God would have known you wouldn't have. If God knows you are going to chose Coke, that's because he knows you are going to freely chose Coke.

It's not determined by me if God pre-determined it. It may seem to me that it's my free will, but it's pre-determined to fit the outcome God intended.

False. God just has the knowledge of the free choice you are going to make, that doesn't mean he controlled the choice you made. Your argument makes no sense.

You make no sense. If God knows the choice I'm going to make, it's not a free choice. It's a pre-determined choice. Nice try.

That's the most moronic thing I've read on this site. Just because God knows before hand what your free choice is going to be, that doesn't mean that what you chose wasn't a free choice. That's a non-sequitur, which is a logical fallacy. So, nice try. Your argument is incoherent and embarrassing.

If you have to resort to ad hominem attacks, you admit defeat.

If you have to adhere to a cop out like that, then I think it's you who really admits defeat lol
qopel
Posts: 150
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3/3/2013 11:51:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 11:43:05 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:40:56 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:35:14 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:31:02 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:26:17 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:23:22 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:18:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

You are confusing cause and effect. If God exists (assuming he does, I don't know), the the reason he knows you are going to do 'x', is because you are going to do 'x'. It's not like you are going to do 'x', because God knows you are going to do 'x'. This means, that if God knows from the moment you are born, that you are going to chose Coke over Pepsi at 5:00pm on March 25th 2013, it's because you are going to freely chose (assuming will is free) to pick Coke over Pepsi at 5:00 pm. This means, that just because God knows what you are going to do ahead of time, that doesn't mean that you weren't going to freely chose said thing.

That's ridiculous. It's not free will if its pre-determined.

It's determined by YOU though, so it is free will. God only knows you will do 'x' in the future, because you will freely chose to do 'x' in the future. The choice to do 'x' is COMPLETELY up to you. If you didn't want to chose Coke over Pepsi, then you wouldn't have, and God would have known you wouldn't have. If God knows you are going to chose Coke, that's because he knows you are going to freely chose Coke.

It's not determined by me if God pre-determined it. It may seem to me that it's my free will, but it's pre-determined to fit the outcome God intended.

False. God just has the knowledge of the free choice you are going to make, that doesn't mean he controlled the choice you made. Your argument makes no sense.

You make no sense. If God knows the choice I'm going to make, it's not a free choice. It's a pre-determined choice. Nice try.

That's the most moronic thing I've read on this site. Just because God knows before hand what your free choice is going to be, that doesn't mean that what you chose wasn't a free choice. That's a non-sequitur, which is a logical fallacy. So, nice try. Your argument is incoherent and embarrassing.

I can play word games too. If God knows what my pre-determined choice is going to be, that means what I choose wasn't a free choice.
Angry_Bird
Posts: 64
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3/3/2013 11:52:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

You do not have free will, it's as simple as that, only God has it, he gets ecactly what he wants every time, with no unfulfilled desires.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE of HIM WHO WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL (boule = decree) OF HIS OWN WILL (thelo = desires). God's DECREE, what He has stated will happen throughout history, arises from His DESIRES. What God has decreed is what God has desired from His WILL, or what He wants.
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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3/3/2013 11:52:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
YOU'RE ARGUING ABOUT A PHILOSOPHY THAT IS INDEPENDENT OF A GOD AND BLAMING IT ON GOD.

It's quite ridiculous.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/3/2013 11:55:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 11:51:20 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:43:05 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:40:56 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:35:14 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:31:02 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:26:17 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:23:22 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:18:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

You are confusing cause and effect. If God exists (assuming he does, I don't know), the the reason he knows you are going to do 'x', is because you are going to do 'x'. It's not like you are going to do 'x', because God knows you are going to do 'x'. This means, that if God knows from the moment you are born, that you are going to chose Coke over Pepsi at 5:00pm on March 25th 2013, it's because you are going to freely chose (assuming will is free) to pick Coke over Pepsi at 5:00 pm. This means, that just because God knows what you are going to do ahead of time, that doesn't mean that you weren't going to freely chose said thing.

That's ridiculous. It's not free will if its pre-determined.

It's determined by YOU though, so it is free will. God only knows you will do 'x' in the future, because you will freely chose to do 'x' in the future. The choice to do 'x' is COMPLETELY up to you. If you didn't want to chose Coke over Pepsi, then you wouldn't have, and God would have known you wouldn't have. If God knows you are going to chose Coke, that's because he knows you are going to freely chose Coke.

It's not determined by me if God pre-determined it. It may seem to me that it's my free will, but it's pre-determined to fit the outcome God intended.

False. God just has the knowledge of the free choice you are going to make, that doesn't mean he controlled the choice you made. Your argument makes no sense.

You make no sense. If God knows the choice I'm going to make, it's not a free choice. It's a pre-determined choice. Nice try.

That's the most moronic thing I've read on this site. Just because God knows before hand what your free choice is going to be, that doesn't mean that what you chose wasn't a free choice. That's a non-sequitur, which is a logical fallacy. So, nice try. Your argument is incoherent and embarrassing.

I can play word games too. If God knows what my pre-determined choice is going to be, that means what I choose wasn't a free choice.

It's not determined by him though, it's determined by you. You have the choice, he just has the knowledge of it. Big difference.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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3/4/2013 2:20:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

Maybe a thought experiment will help.

Let's assume some sort of free will exists. A person asks you to choose a number between 1 & million. You choose a number lets call it X.

This person later tells me you choose number X. I just happen to have a time machine, I go back in time 5 mins before you choose the number. Of course I have knowledge of what number your going to pick. The events play out again, you choose number X again.

Were you any less free with your number choice just because I knew what your choice was going to be ? Doesn't seem so.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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3/4/2013 2:36:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 2:20:44 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

Maybe a thought experiment will help.

Let's assume some sort of free will exists. A person asks you to choose a number between 1 & million. You choose a number lets call it X.

This person later tells me you choose number X. I just happen to have a time machine, I go back in time 5 mins before you choose the number. Of course I have knowledge of what number your going to pick. The events play out again, you choose number X again.

Were you any less free with your number choice just because I knew what your choice was going to be ? Doesn't seem so.

Let's assume it doesn't - big bang, or rapid expansion, or however the universe comes to be, takes place. Atoms and molecules of a certain mass, velocity and vector are moving outward from a central point.

In this simple, early stage of the universe's development, we have the knowledge and computing power to predict EXACTLY what the status of the universe would be 1 second after its start...and one minute...with one hour, the data starts to get to be a bit too much for us to handle, but if one extrapolates, should our ability to compute data and knowledge of physics increase exponentially, we could probably get to a year 1 of the universe where we predict it from its beginning to the state it is in one year from that point, with perfect accuracy.

Now, extrapolate further, and you begin to realize why plenty of non-theists believe that free will is a human construct, though still live their lives as if it exists, because the alternative is too stagnant and depressing.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/4/2013 2:42:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I know a free will. But it is not your free will.

Your free will is dead. By literalism, it cannot exist. By practice, it can be beaten.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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3/4/2013 2:46:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 2:42:01 AM, FREEDO wrote:
I know a free will. But it is not your free will.

Your free will is dead. By literalism, it cannot exist. By practice, it can be beaten.

Can you hook me up? Legal expenses are a bear these days. I could use some free probate work on my behalf.
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
Suqua
Posts: 433
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3/4/2013 2:50:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 11:52:05 PM, Angry_Bird wrote:
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

You do not have free will, it's as simple as that, only God has it, he gets ecactly what he wants every time, with no unfulfilled desires.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE of HIM WHO WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL (boule = decree) OF HIS OWN WILL (thelo = desires). God's DECREE, what He has stated will happen throughout history, arises from His DESIRES. What God has decreed is what God has desired from His WILL, or what He wants.

He desires that all will be saved. Not happening! Sorry.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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3/4/2013 3:00:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 11:40:56 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:35:14 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:31:02 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:26:17 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:23:22 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:18:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

You are confusing cause and effect. If God exists (assuming he does, I don't know), the the reason he knows you are going to do 'x', is because you are going to do 'x'. It's not like you are going to do 'x', because God knows you are going to do 'x'. This means, that if God knows from the moment you are born, that you are going to chose Coke over Pepsi at 5:00pm on March 25th 2013, it's because you are going to freely chose (assuming will is free) to pick Coke over Pepsi at 5:00 pm. This means, that just because God knows what you are going to do ahead of time, that doesn't mean that you weren't going to freely chose said thing.

That's ridiculous. It's not free will if its pre-determined.

It's determined by YOU though, so it is free will. God only knows you will do 'x' in the future, because you will freely chose to do 'x' in the future. The choice to do 'x' is COMPLETELY up to you. If you didn't want to chose Coke over Pepsi, then you wouldn't have, and God would have known you wouldn't have. If God knows you are going to chose Coke, that's because he knows you are going to freely chose Coke.

It's not determined by me if God pre-determined it. It may seem to me that it's my free will, but it's pre-determined to fit the outcome God intended.

False. God just has the knowledge of the free choice you are going to make, that doesn't mean he controlled the choice you made. Your argument makes no sense.

You make no sense. If God knows the choice I'm going to make, it's not a free choice. It's a pre-determined choice. Nice try.

First - In your argument that foreknowledge results in predetermination, you are equating foreknowledge with causation and they are not the same thing. If a psychic has foreknowledge of a future event, it does not logically follow that the psychic was the cause of that future event.

Second - Your argument presumes that God has foreknowledge of future events AND has revealed that foreknowledge explicitly, and I don't think anybody has made a claim to the presupposition. Postulating omniscience to God is not the same thing as postulating that God has in some way revealed His foreknowledge of events and therefore we are "bound" to make the choices foretold and hence do not have free will. Your argument requires this nonexistent step to logically hold together and that just isn"t the case. It is not necessarily a logical proposition that foreknowledge of the choices individuals will make means that we have no free will to make those choices and putting these concepts side by side in a sentence does not by itself establish a causal or logical connection.

Third - In your contention that foreknowledge eliminates free will you are equating foreknowledge to compulsion, rather than just repeat the assertion you need to demonstrate how foreknowledge either creates the act of compelling, the state of being compelled, exerts a force that compels, or creates an irresistible impulse to perform the act in question. You haven"t, you are just stating that foreknowledge is equal to compulsion. If you can't establish that, then you don't have an actual argument, just an unfounded assertion, and repetition does not make an unfounded assertion become true.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
THEVIRUS
Posts: 1,321
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3/4/2013 3:42:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 11:23:22 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:18:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

You are confusing cause and effect. If God exists (assuming he does, I don't know), the the reason he knows you are going to do 'x', is because you are going to do 'x'. It's not like you are going to do 'x', because God knows you are going to do 'x'. This means, that if God knows from the moment you are born, that you are going to chose Coke over Pepsi at 5:00pm on March 25th 2013, it's because you are going to freely chose (assuming will is free) to pick Coke over Pepsi at 5:00 pm. This means, that just because God knows what you are going to do ahead of time, that doesn't mean that you weren't going to freely chose said thing.

That's ridiculous. It's not free will if its pre-determined.

The way you say it doesn't work

However, part of gods all knowingness is that he has created us for his plan, and makes us exactly who you are, even your choices (be it indirectly). So to believe in god is to lose free will
"So you want me to go to the judge with 'unit, corps, God, country'?" - A Few Good Men

"And the hits just keep on comin'." -A Few Good Men
THEVIRUS
Posts: 1,321
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3/4/2013 3:46:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 3:42:25 AM, THEVIRUS wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:23:22 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:18:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

You are confusing cause and effect. If God exists (assuming he does, I don't know), the the reason he knows you are going to do 'x', is because you are going to do 'x'. It's not like you are going to do 'x', because God knows you are going to do 'x'. This means, that if God knows from the moment you are born, that you are going to chose Coke over Pepsi at 5:00pm on March 25th 2013, it's because you are going to freely chose (assuming will is free) to pick Coke over Pepsi at 5:00 pm. This means, that just because God knows what you are going to do ahead of time, that doesn't mean that you weren't going to freely chose said thing.

That's ridiculous. It's not free will if its pre-determined.

The way you say it doesn't work

However, part of gods all knowingness is that he has created us for his plan, and makes us exactly who you are, even your choices (be it indirectly). So to believe in god is to lose free will

Also, if god knew girl x would be raped by guy x for an hour straight for 3 days in a row and then drowned in her own home... why not stop it? However, the only reason god would (reasonably) let this happen is if he made it to happen.
"So you want me to go to the judge with 'unit, corps, God, country'?" - A Few Good Men

"And the hits just keep on comin'." -A Few Good Men
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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3/4/2013 10:57:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 11:40:56 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:35:14 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:31:02 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:26:17 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:23:22 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:18:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

You are confusing cause and effect. If God exists (assuming he does, I don't know), the the reason he knows you are going to do 'x', is because you are going to do 'x'. It's not like you are going to do 'x', because God knows you are going to do 'x'. This means, that if God knows from the moment you are born, that you are going to chose Coke over Pepsi at 5:00pm on March 25th 2013, it's because you are going to freely chose (assuming will is free) to pick Coke over Pepsi at 5:00 pm. This means, that just because God knows what you are going to do ahead of time, that doesn't mean that you weren't going to freely chose said thing.

That's ridiculous. It's not free will if its pre-determined.

It's determined by YOU though, so it is free will. God only knows you will do 'x' in the future, because you will freely chose to do 'x' in the future. The choice to do 'x' is COMPLETELY up to you. If you didn't want to chose Coke over Pepsi, then you wouldn't have, and God would have known you wouldn't have. If God knows you are going to chose Coke, that's because he knows you are going to freely chose Coke.

It's not determined by me if God pre-determined it. It may seem to me that it's my free will, but it's pre-determined to fit the outcome God intended.

False. God just has the knowledge of the free choice you are going to make, that doesn't mean he controlled the choice you made. Your argument makes no sense.

You make no sense. If God knows the choice I'm going to make, it's not a free choice. It's a pre-determined choice. Nice try.

This is really simple. You make the choices, but if God is omniscient, then He will know in advance what you're going to choose. His foreknowledge does not mean that He has fore-ordained a particular outcome for you.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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3/4/2013 11:06:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 3:46:12 AM, THEVIRUS wrote:
At 3/4/2013 3:42:25 AM, THEVIRUS wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:23:22 PM, qopel wrote:
At 3/3/2013 11:18:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/3/2013 10:14:42 PM, qopel wrote:
It's been said that God is almighty and all knowing.
If God is all knowing, won't he know if I'll be saved on judgement day before I am even born? If he knows the outcome, how can I use my free will to change the outcome of something God knows will happen? Either I can change what God knows will happen, which means he is not all knowing, or I can't change what he knows will happen, which means I don't have free will.

You are confusing cause and effect. If God exists (assuming he does, I don't know), the the reason he knows you are going to do 'x', is because you are going to do 'x'. It's not like you are going to do 'x', because God knows you are going to do 'x'. This means, that if God knows from the moment you are born, that you are going to chose Coke over Pepsi at 5:00pm on March 25th 2013, it's because you are going to freely chose (assuming will is free) to pick Coke over Pepsi at 5:00 pm. This means, that just because God knows what you are going to do ahead of time, that doesn't mean that you weren't going to freely chose said thing.

That's ridiculous. It's not free will if its pre-determined.

The way you say it doesn't work

However, part of gods all knowingness is that he has created us for his plan, and makes us exactly who you are, even your choices (be it indirectly). So to believe in god is to lose free will

Also, if god knew girl x would be raped by guy x for an hour straight for 3 days in a row and then drowned in her own home... why not stop it? However, the only reason god would (reasonably) let this happen is if he made it to happen.



If you wish to conflate creating man with free will, with God making the girl get raped, that's your choice. The sensible thing to do though, is to realize that the rapist had the option of not raping and drowning the girl. In addition, your scenario is logically faulty in that God sees sex outside of marriage as adultery, which is a sin. So saying that God made him rape the girl is blatantly false, and even goes against what the Bible teaches.