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Christians: argue the case against God

dylancatlow
Posts: 12,251
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3/4/2013 7:16:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Christians, I ask you to provide the best case against the existence of the Christian God you can. I, in return, will argue your side, the case for the existence of God. It will be interesting to see what arguments Christians think atheists are using and what estimates are being made about them, and vice versa.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/4/2013 7:40:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The Argument from Evil (William Rowe)

(1) There exist instances of intense suffering [E1 and E2] which an omnipotent, omniscient being could have prevented without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
(2) An omniscient, wholly good being would prevent the occurrence of any intense suffering it could, unless it could not do so without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
(3) There does not exist an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly good being.

E1[Bambi]: In some distant forest lightning strikes a dead tree, resulting in a forest fire. In the fire a fawn is trapped, horribly burned, and lies in terrible agony for several days before death relieves its suffering

E2[Sue]: This is an actual event in which a five-year-old girl in Flint, Michigan was severely beaten, raped and then strangled to death early on New Year"s Day in 1986. The case was introduced by Bruce Russell (1989: 123), whose account of it, drawn from a report in the Detroit Free Press of January 3 1986, runs as follows:

The girl"s mother was living with her boyfriend, another man who was unemployed, her two children, and her 9-month old infant fathered by the boyfriend. On New Year"s Eve all three adults were drinking at a bar near the woman"s home. The boyfriend had been taking drugs and drinking heavily. He was asked to leave the bar at 8:00 p.m. After several reappearances he finally stayed away for good at about 9:30 p.m. The woman and the unemployed man remained at the bar until 2:00 a.m. at which time the woman went home and the man to a party at a neighbor"s home. Perhaps out of jealousy, the boyfriend attacked the woman when she walked into the house. Her brother was there and broke up the fight by hitting the boyfriend who was passed out and slumped over a table when the brother left. Later the boyfriend attacked the woman again, and this time she knocked him unconscious. After checking the children, she went to bed. Later the woman"s 5-year old girl went downstairs to go to the bathroom. The unemployed man returned from the party at 3:45 a.m. and found the 5-year old dead. She had been raped, severely beaten over most of her body and strangled to death by the boyfriend.

http://www.iep.utm.edu...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,251
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3/4/2013 8:04:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 7:40:49 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
The Argument from Evil (William Rowe)

(1) There exist instances of intense suffering [E1 and E2] which an omnipotent, omniscient being could have prevented without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
(2) An omniscient, wholly good being would prevent the occurrence of any intense suffering it could, unless it could not do so without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
(3) There does not exist an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly good being.

E1[Bambi]: In some distant forest lightning strikes a dead tree, resulting in a forest fire. In the fire a fawn is trapped, horribly burned, and lies in terrible agony for several days before death relieves its suffering

E2[Sue]: This is an actual event in which a five-year-old girl in Flint, Michigan was severely beaten, raped and then strangled to death early on New Year"s Day in 1986. The case was introduced by Bruce Russell (1989: 123), whose account of it, drawn from a report in the Detroit Free Press of January 3 1986, runs as follows:

The girl"s mother was living with her boyfriend, another man who was unemployed, her two children, and her 9-month old infant fathered by the boyfriend. On New Year"s Eve all three adults were drinking at a bar near the woman"s home. The boyfriend had been taking drugs and drinking heavily. He was asked to leave the bar at 8:00 p.m. After several reappearances he finally stayed away for good at about 9:30 p.m. The woman and the unemployed man remained at the bar until 2:00 a.m. at which time the woman went home and the man to a party at a neighbor"s home. Perhaps out of jealousy, the boyfriend attacked the woman when she walked into the house. Her brother was there and broke up the fight by hitting the boyfriend who was passed out and slumped over a table when the brother left. Later the boyfriend attacked the woman again, and this time she knocked him unconscious. After checking the children, she went to bed. Later the woman"s 5-year old girl went downstairs to go to the bathroom. The unemployed man returned from the party at 3:45 a.m. and found the 5-year old dead. She had been raped, severely beaten over most of her body and strangled to death by the boyfriend.

http://www.iep.utm.edu...

God's will is unknown. He works in mysterious ways, and who are we, puny humans, to judge his will.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,251
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3/4/2013 8:07:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
By the way, that was not even an argument I like to use. According to the Christian doctrine, God condoned slavery and rape, so using God as something that should do good in the world is BS (even according to the Bible).
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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3/4/2013 8:19:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 8:04:22 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 3/4/2013 7:40:49 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
The Argument from Evil (William Rowe)

(1) There exist instances of intense suffering [E1 and E2] which an omnipotent, omniscient being could have prevented without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
(2) An omniscient, wholly good being would prevent the occurrence of any intense suffering it could, unless it could not do so without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
(3) There does not exist an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly good being.

E1[Bambi]: In some distant forest lightning strikes a dead tree, resulting in a forest fire. In the fire a fawn is trapped, horribly burned, and lies in terrible agony for several days before death relieves its suffering

E2[Sue]: This is an actual event in which a five-year-old girl in Flint, Michigan was severely beaten, raped and then strangled to death early on New Year"s Day in 1986. The case was introduced by Bruce Russell (1989: 123), whose account of it, drawn from a report in the Detroit Free Press of January 3 1986, runs as follows:

The girl"s mother was living with her boyfriend, another man who was unemployed, her two children, and her 9-month old infant fathered by the boyfriend. On New Year"s Eve all three adults were drinking at a bar near the woman"s home. The boyfriend had been taking drugs and drinking heavily. He was asked to leave the bar at 8:00 p.m. After several reappearances he finally stayed away for good at about 9:30 p.m. The woman and the unemployed man remained at the bar until 2:00 a.m. at which time the woman went home and the man to a party at a neighbor"s home. Perhaps out of jealousy, the boyfriend attacked the woman when she walked into the house. Her brother was there and broke up the fight by hitting the boyfriend who was passed out and slumped over a table when the brother left. Later the boyfriend attacked the woman again, and this time she knocked him unconscious. After checking the children, she went to bed. Later the woman"s 5-year old girl went downstairs to go to the bathroom. The unemployed man returned from the party at 3:45 a.m. and found the 5-year old dead. She had been raped, severely beaten over most of her body and strangled to death by the boyfriend.

http://www.iep.utm.edu...

God's will is unknown. He works in mysterious ways, and who are we, puny humans, to judge his will.

Come on. You hardly even try.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,251
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3/4/2013 8:22:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 8:19:41 PM, phantom wrote:
At 3/4/2013 8:04:22 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 3/4/2013 7:40:49 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
The Argument from Evil (William Rowe)

(1) There exist instances of intense suffering [E1 and E2] which an omnipotent, omniscient being could have prevented without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
(2) An omniscient, wholly good being would prevent the occurrence of any intense suffering it could, unless it could not do so without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
(3) There does not exist an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly good being.

E1[Bambi]: In some distant forest lightning strikes a dead tree, resulting in a forest fire. In the fire a fawn is trapped, horribly burned, and lies in terrible agony for several days before death relieves its suffering

E2[Sue]: This is an actual event in which a five-year-old girl in Flint, Michigan was severely beaten, raped and then strangled to death early on New Year"s Day in 1986. The case was introduced by Bruce Russell (1989: 123), whose account of it, drawn from a report in the Detroit Free Press of January 3 1986, runs as follows:

The girl"s mother was living with her boyfriend, another man who was unemployed, her two children, and her 9-month old infant fathered by the boyfriend. On New Year"s Eve all three adults were drinking at a bar near the woman"s home. The boyfriend had been taking drugs and drinking heavily. He was asked to leave the bar at 8:00 p.m. After several reappearances he finally stayed away for good at about 9:30 p.m. The woman and the unemployed man remained at the bar until 2:00 a.m. at which time the woman went home and the man to a party at a neighbor"s home. Perhaps out of jealousy, the boyfriend attacked the woman when she walked into the house. Her brother was there and broke up the fight by hitting the boyfriend who was passed out and slumped over a table when the brother left. Later the boyfriend attacked the woman again, and this time she knocked him unconscious. After checking the children, she went to bed. Later the woman"s 5-year old girl went downstairs to go to the bathroom. The unemployed man returned from the party at 3:45 a.m. and found the 5-year old dead. She had been raped, severely beaten over most of her body and strangled to death by the boyfriend.

http://www.iep.utm.edu...

God's will is unknown. He works in mysterious ways, and who are we, puny humans, to judge his will.

Come on. You hardly even try.

What would you say?
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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3/4/2013 9:02:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 7:40:49 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
The Argument from Evil (William Rowe)

(1) There exist instances of intense suffering [E1 and E2] which an omnipotent, omniscient being could have prevented without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
(2) An omniscient, wholly good being would prevent the occurrence of any intense suffering it could, unless it could not do so without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
(3) There does not exist an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly good being.

E1[Bambi]: In some distant forest lightning strikes a dead tree, resulting in a forest fire. In the fire a fawn is trapped, horribly burned, and lies in terrible agony for several days before death relieves its suffering

E2[Sue]: This is an actual event in which a five-year-old girl in Flint, Michigan was severely beaten, raped and then strangled to death early on New Year"s Day in 1986. The case was introduced by Bruce Russell (1989: 123), whose account of it, drawn from a report in the Detroit Free Press of January 3 1986, runs as follows:

The girl"s mother was living with her boyfriend, another man who was unemployed, her two children, and her 9-month old infant fathered by the boyfriend. On New Year"s Eve all three adults were drinking at a bar near the woman"s home. The boyfriend had been taking drugs and drinking heavily. He was asked to leave the bar at 8:00 p.m. After several reappearances he finally stayed away for good at about 9:30 p.m. The woman and the unemployed man remained at the bar until 2:00 a.m. at which time the woman went home and the man to a party at a neighbor"s home. Perhaps out of jealousy, the boyfriend attacked the woman when she walked into the house. Her brother was there and broke up the fight by hitting the boyfriend who was passed out and slumped over a table when the brother left. Later the boyfriend attacked the woman again, and this time she knocked him unconscious. After checking the children, she went to bed. Later the woman"s 5-year old girl went downstairs to go to the bathroom. The unemployed man returned from the party at 3:45 a.m. and found the 5-year old dead. She had been raped, severely beaten over most of her body and strangled to death by the boyfriend.

http://www.iep.utm.edu...

I'll have a little go. Not that I think this is the best theodicy.

Adaption of Leibnizian theodicy:

A.
1. Existence is either contingent or non-contingent (law of excluded middle)
2. If existence is non-contingent, it is necessary (for lack of other option)
3. Contingent things exist via an external cause
4. Necessary things exist because it couldn't have been otherwise
5. If existence were contingent, it would need an external reason for existence (p.3)
6. The only possible causes are from necessary or contingent things (P.1)
7. If a necessary thing existed, there would be no possible world in which nothing existed
8. If existence were contingent, there would be a possible world in which nothing existed
9. A necessary thing existing within a contingent existence is contradictory
10. If existence is contingent, it was not caused necessarily
11. If it was not caused necessarily, it was caused contingently
12. Contingent existence cannot be a cause within itself for that is necessary existence
13 If existence were contingent, it would have nothing to cause it
14. If existence were contingent, nothing would exist
15. Something exists
16. Therefore existence is necessary. There is no possible world in which nothing exists

B.

1. Reality equals the totality of all facts
2. Every fact is equal to itself (A = A)
3. This is a necessary truth
4. Thus, all facts about existence are equal to themselves and couldn't be otherwise
5. Part of what constitutes a fact is what the fact entails or produces
6. If A entails x, then A entails x
7. A cannot entail x while A entails ~x
8. Therefore the state of reality at time A can only result in one possible future state of reality
9. So everything that occurs in reality occurs because it must occur
10. Thus, for every occurrence, there is a sufficient reason
11. Thus, all facts exist necessarily
12. Thus, all of reality is necessary
13. Therefore, this is the only possible world

C.
1. The problem of evil assumes God fails to choose the best possible world
2. Since this is the only possible world, it would be necessarily impossible for God to choose a better world
3. Thus, this is the best possible world
4. Thus the problem of evil fails.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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3/4/2013 9:04:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 8:22:57 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 3/4/2013 8:19:41 PM, phantom wrote:
At 3/4/2013 8:04:22 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 3/4/2013 7:40:49 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
The Argument from Evil (William Rowe)

(1) There exist instances of intense suffering [E1 and E2] which an omnipotent, omniscient being could have prevented without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
(2) An omniscient, wholly good being would prevent the occurrence of any intense suffering it could, unless it could not do so without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
(3) There does not exist an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly good being.

E1[Bambi]: In some distant forest lightning strikes a dead tree, resulting in a forest fire. In the fire a fawn is trapped, horribly burned, and lies in terrible agony for several days before death relieves its suffering

E2[Sue]: This is an actual event in which a five-year-old girl in Flint, Michigan was severely beaten, raped and then strangled to death early on New Year"s Day in 1986. The case was introduced by Bruce Russell (1989: 123), whose account of it, drawn from a report in the Detroit Free Press of January 3 1986, runs as follows:

The girl"s mother was living with her boyfriend, another man who was unemployed, her two children, and her 9-month old infant fathered by the boyfriend. On New Year"s Eve all three adults were drinking at a bar near the woman"s home. The boyfriend had been taking drugs and drinking heavily. He was asked to leave the bar at 8:00 p.m. After several reappearances he finally stayed away for good at about 9:30 p.m. The woman and the unemployed man remained at the bar until 2:00 a.m. at which time the woman went home and the man to a party at a neighbor"s home. Perhaps out of jealousy, the boyfriend attacked the woman when she walked into the house. Her brother was there and broke up the fight by hitting the boyfriend who was passed out and slumped over a table when the brother left. Later the boyfriend attacked the woman again, and this time she knocked him unconscious. After checking the children, she went to bed. Later the woman"s 5-year old girl went downstairs to go to the bathroom. The unemployed man returned from the party at 3:45 a.m. and found the 5-year old dead. She had been raped, severely beaten over most of her body and strangled to death by the boyfriend.

http://www.iep.utm.edu...

God's will is unknown. He works in mysterious ways, and who are we, puny humans, to judge his will.

Come on. You hardly even try.

What would you say?

Ideally, not what I said last post. I'd argue a much more structured case of what you said or an argument from universalism providing sufficient justification for evil.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)