Total Posts:27|Showing Posts:1-27
Jump to topic:

Why is free will important?

Dogknox
Posts: 5,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2013 2:44:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/5/2013 2:20:49 PM, pozessed wrote:
If free will exists, is it something important?

Why or why not?
pozessed
You can't "LOVE" without free will!
If you do not have free will, then you will be forced to LOVE and that is not true love if it is coerced or bribed!

God is pure perfect LOVE.. He must give man the freedom to Love or not to love of he would not be perfect!

Only man is made in the image of God.. Pigs, Cows, Dogs, Snails, Fish etc can't love!
pozessed "If you refuse to love me.. I will punch you square in the nose!!"
QUESTION.. Can I force you to love!!?

pozessed "If you will love me, I will PAY YOU... How about eighteen bucks"?!
QUESTION.. Can I trick you to love or pay you to love me!!?

Dogknox
qopel
Posts: 150
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2013 2:54:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You can't believe without free will. That's the whole concept about faith. If God proved to you that he existed, you wouldn't need to make a choice. He doesn't give you any evidence for his existence, so yo have to chose to believe on faith. If you don't choose to believe on faith, you are an atheist. Faith is just an excuse to believe something without evidence. I takes free will to choose to be ignorant and gullible.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2013 3:09:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/5/2013 2:44:09 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 3/5/2013 2:20:49 PM, pozessed wrote:
If free will exists, is it something important?

Why or why not?
pozessed
You can't "LOVE" without free will!
If you do not have free will, then you will be forced to LOVE and that is not true love if it is coerced or bribed!

False. You don't chose who you fall in love with, either you get those feelings for someone or you don't. You don't sit there and and think, "ok, I'm going to chose to love you" lol


God is pure perfect LOVE.. He must give man the freedom to Love or not to love of he would not be perfect!

We don't have that freedom though. I love my mother for example, I didn't chose to love her. It's just the way the cookie crumbled.


Only man is made in the image of God.. Pigs, Cows, Dogs, Snails, Fish etc can't love!
pozessed "If you refuse to love me.. I will punch you square in the nose!!"
QUESTION.. Can I force you to love!!?

pozessed "If you will love me, I will PAY YOU... How about eighteen bucks"?!
QUESTION.. Can I trick you to love or pay you to love me!!?

Dogknox
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2013 3:13:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Free will is not important, results are. If someone puts 50 dollars in my account, I do not care if it was due to their choice, or if they were forced. If a girl loves me, it doesn't matter if she had a choice or not, as long as she loves me and those good feelings are there. If I give to charity, it doesn't matter whether it was my choice or whether I'm just a biological machines making movies based on internal mechanisms and external stimuli. I see no reason why free will is important, as long as the results of the supposed "free will" are still in tact.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2013 3:17:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/5/2013 2:54:03 PM, qopel wrote:
You can't believe without free will. That's the whole concept about faith. If God proved to you that he existed, you wouldn't need to make a choice. He doesn't give you any evidence for his existence, so yo have to chose to believe on faith. If you don't choose to believe on faith, you are an atheist. Faith is just an excuse to believe something without evidence. I takes free will to choose to be ignorant and gullible.

Free will is for the non-believer. You have the free will to reject the evidence in front of your face, to call it something else. You have the free will to say you're following the evidence...to the conclusion that the universe created itself, and life created itself. You have the free will to call that the "logical and rational" choice, if you wish. You have the free will to insult people for faith in God, while using faith yourself in other things. You have the free will to stay angry at believers and insult them every chance you get. You have the free will to love God, or deny He exists. That's why free will is important.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2013 3:20:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/5/2013 2:54:03 PM, qopel wrote:
You can't believe without free will. That's the whole concept about faith. If God proved to you that he existed, you wouldn't need to make a choice. He doesn't give you any evidence for his existence, so yo have to chose to believe on faith. If you don't choose to believe on faith, you are an atheist. Faith is just an excuse to believe something without evidence. I takes free will to choose to be ignorant and gullible.

Provide one scripture where faith is used in the context you describe. Actually the Bible describes faith as power and is used for results. Faith is SUBSTANCE and EVIDENCE. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen" lol. It is both EVIDENCE and SUBSTANCE. Faith produces evidence, when we use faith to believe God for something impossible we are relying on the power of God to accomplish something. What do you think about the parable of the mustard seed? Matthew 17:20, read that and tell me what faith is used for in a christian context.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2013 3:25:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/5/2013 3:17:17 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 2:54:03 PM, qopel wrote:
You can't believe without free will. That's the whole concept about faith. If God proved to you that he existed, you wouldn't need to make a choice. He doesn't give you any evidence for his existence, so yo have to chose to believe on faith. If you don't choose to believe on faith, you are an atheist. Faith is just an excuse to believe something without evidence. I takes free will to choose to be ignorant and gullible.

Free will is for the non-believer. You have the free will to reject the evidence in front of your face, to call it something else. You have the free will to say you're following the evidence...to the conclusion that the universe created itself, and life created itself. You have the free will to call that the "logical and rational" choice, if you wish. You have the free will to insult people for faith in God, while using faith yourself in other things. You have the free will to stay angry at believers and insult them every chance you get. You have the free will to love God, or deny He exists. That's why free will is important.

What evidence is there for free will? Just claiming that someone has free will, doesn't make it so.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2013 3:28:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/5/2013 3:09:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 2:44:09 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 3/5/2013 2:20:49 PM, pozessed wrote:
If free will exists, is it something important?

Why or why not?
pozessed
You can't "LOVE" without free will!
If you do not have free will, then you will be forced to LOVE and that is not true love if it is coerced or bribed!

False. You don't chose who you fall in love with, either you get those feelings for someone or you don't. You don't sit there and and think, "ok, I'm going to chose to love you" lol


God is pure perfect LOVE.. He must give man the freedom to Love or not to love of he would not be perfect!

We don't have that freedom though. I love my mother for example, I didn't chose to love her. It's just the way the cookie crumbled.


Only man is made in the image of God.. Pigs, Cows, Dogs, Snails, Fish etc can't love!
pozessed "If you refuse to love me.. I will punch you square in the nose!!"
QUESTION.. Can I force you to love!!?

pozessed "If you will love me, I will PAY YOU... How about eighteen bucks"?!
QUESTION.. Can I trick you to love or pay you to love me!!?

Dogknox

The Fool: Welcome back Rational..
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2013 4:39:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/5/2013 3:25:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 3:17:17 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 2:54:03 PM, qopel wrote:
You can't believe without free will. That's the whole concept about faith. If God proved to you that he existed, you wouldn't need to make a choice. He doesn't give you any evidence for his existence, so yo have to chose to believe on faith. If you don't choose to believe on faith, you are an atheist. Faith is just an excuse to believe something without evidence. I takes free will to choose to be ignorant and gullible.

Free will is for the non-believer. You have the free will to reject the evidence in front of your face, to call it something else. You have the free will to say you're following the evidence...to the conclusion that the universe created itself, and life created itself. You have the free will to call that the "logical and rational" choice, if you wish. You have the free will to insult people for faith in God, while using faith yourself in other things. You have the free will to stay angry at believers and insult them every chance you get. You have the free will to love God, or deny He exists. That's why free will is important.

What evidence is there for free will? Just claiming that someone has free will, doesn't make it so.

Didn't we just do this a few days ago??

Our entire justice system is made on the assumption of free will, that people are responsible for making their own decisions. If free will doesn't exist, and people's actions aren't under their own control, then we have no right locking people up for anything because it's not their fault.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2013 5:52:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/5/2013 4:39:42 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 3:25:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 3:17:17 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 2:54:03 PM, qopel wrote:
You can't believe without free will. That's the whole concept about faith. If God proved to you that he existed, you wouldn't need to make a choice. He doesn't give you any evidence for his existence, so yo have to chose to believe on faith. If you don't choose to believe on faith, you are an atheist. Faith is just an excuse to believe something without evidence. I takes free will to choose to be ignorant and gullible.

Free will is for the non-believer. You have the free will to reject the evidence in front of your face, to call it something else. You have the free will to say you're following the evidence...to the conclusion that the universe created itself, and life created itself. You have the free will to call that the "logical and rational" choice, if you wish. You have the free will to insult people for faith in God, while using faith yourself in other things. You have the free will to stay angry at believers and insult them every chance you get. You have the free will to love God, or deny He exists. That's why free will is important.

What evidence is there for free will? Just claiming that someone has free will, doesn't make it so.

Didn't we just do this a few days ago??

Our entire justice system is made on the assumption of free will, that people are responsible for making their own decisions. If free will doesn't exist, and people's actions aren't under their own control, then we have no right locking people up for anything because it's not their fault.

Right, and about that assumption, the question was, what is the evidence for free will ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
qopel
Posts: 150
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2013 6:54:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/5/2013 3:17:17 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 2:54:03 PM, qopel wrote:
You can't believe without free will. That's the whole concept about faith. If God proved to you that he existed, you wouldn't need to make a choice. He doesn't give you any evidence for his existence, so yo have to chose to believe on faith. If you don't choose to believe on faith, you are an atheist. Faith is just an excuse to believe something without evidence. I takes free will to choose to be ignorant and gullible.

Free will is for the non-believer. You have the free will to reject the evidence in front of your face, to call it something else. You have the free will to say you're following the evidence...to the conclusion that the universe created itself, and life created itself. You have the free will to call that the "logical and rational" choice, if you wish. You have the free will to insult people for faith in God, while using faith yourself in other things. You have the free will to stay angry at believers and insult them every chance you get. You have the free will to love God, or deny He exists. That's why free will is important.

Atheism is the default position. No rejection, no words said, no calling, no insults, no anger or love is required to be an Atheist.
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2013 7:22:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/5/2013 3:09:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 2:44:09 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 3/5/2013 2:20:49 PM, pozessed wrote:
If free will exists, is it something important?

Why or why not?
pozessed
You can't "LOVE" without free will!
If you do not have free will, then you will be forced to LOVE and that is not true love if it is coerced or bribed!

False. You don't chose who you fall in love with, either you get those feelings for someone or you don't. You don't sit there and and think, "ok, I'm going to chose to love you" lol


False. You can't help who you have feelings for, but you can help who you love. Love is not some touchy-feely emotion. Love is an action. "I love you" is cheap if you don't have actions to back it up. Even if you could not technically choose whom to "love," you could still choose who to dedicate your life and your resources to. If you have feelings for two women, you could choose between one (or choose between all the potential mates out there). Forced love is not true love at all.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2013 8:02:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/5/2013 2:54:03 PM, qopel wrote:
You can't believe without free will. That's the whole concept about faith. If God proved to you that he existed, you wouldn't need to make a choice.

Like he did with Adam, Eve, Noah, Moses, Abraham and everyone else he appeared to in the Bible?

He doesn't give you any evidence for his existence, so yo have to chose to believe on faith. If you don't choose to believe on faith, you are an atheist. Faith is just an excuse to believe something without evidence. I takes free will to choose to be ignorant and gullible.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2013 8:04:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/5/2013 4:39:42 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 3:25:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 3:17:17 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 2:54:03 PM, qopel wrote:
You can't believe without free will. That's the whole concept about faith. If God proved to you that he existed, you wouldn't need to make a choice. He doesn't give you any evidence for his existence, so yo have to chose to believe on faith. If you don't choose to believe on faith, you are an atheist. Faith is just an excuse to believe something without evidence. I takes free will to choose to be ignorant and gullible.

Free will is for the non-believer. You have the free will to reject the evidence in front of your face, to call it something else. You have the free will to say you're following the evidence...to the conclusion that the universe created itself, and life created itself. You have the free will to call that the "logical and rational" choice, if you wish. You have the free will to insult people for faith in God, while using faith yourself in other things. You have the free will to stay angry at believers and insult them every chance you get. You have the free will to love God, or deny He exists. That's why free will is important.

What evidence is there for free will? Just claiming that someone has free will, doesn't make it so.

Didn't we just do this a few days ago??

Our entire justice system is made on the assumption of free will, that people are responsible for making their own decisions. If free will doesn't exist, and people's actions aren't under their own control, then we have no right locking people up for anything because it's not their fault.

If free will doesn't exist, then we don't have the free will to stop locking people up in the manner that we do.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2013 8:54:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/5/2013 4:39:42 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 3:25:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 3:17:17 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 2:54:03 PM, qopel wrote:
You can't believe without free will. That's the whole concept about faith. If God proved to you that he existed, you wouldn't need to make a choice. He doesn't give you any evidence for his existence, so yo have to chose to believe on faith. If you don't choose to believe on faith, you are an atheist. Faith is just an excuse to believe something without evidence. I takes free will to choose to be ignorant and gullible.

Free will is for the non-believer. You have the free will to reject the evidence in front of your face, to call it something else. You have the free will to say you're following the evidence...to the conclusion that the universe created itself, and life created itself. You have the free will to call that the "logical and rational" choice, if you wish. You have the free will to insult people for faith in God, while using faith yourself in other things. You have the free will to stay angry at believers and insult them every chance you get. You have the free will to love God, or deny He exists. That's why free will is important.

What evidence is there for free will? Just claiming that someone has free will, doesn't make it so.

Didn't we just do this a few days ago??

Our entire justice system is made on the assumption of free will, that people are responsible for making their own decisions.

Yes, many scientists believe the justice system is flawed for that very reason.

If free will doesn't exist, and people's actions aren't under their own control, then we have no right locking people up for anything because it's not their fault.

Like I said in my earlier post in this thread, it's the result that counts. If someone stabs someone to death, they should be locked up/ treated regardless if it was their fault or not. Not as a punishment, but for the protection of the rest of society. If every second a thunder bolt projected from your butt, it wouldn't matter if it was due to your free choice or not. You are a danger to society, and something has to be done.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2013 9:08:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/5/2013 7:22:14 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 3/5/2013 3:09:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 2:44:09 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 3/5/2013 2:20:49 PM, pozessed wrote:
If free will exists, is it something important?

Why or why not?
pozessed
You can't "LOVE" without free will!
If you do not have free will, then you will be forced to LOVE and that is not true love if it is coerced or bribed!

False. You don't chose who you fall in love with, either you get those feelings for someone or you don't. You don't sit there and and think, "ok, I'm going to chose to love you" lol


False. You can't help who you have feelings for, but you can help who you love.

Love is a feeling, so you aren't making any sense.

Love is not some touchy-feely emotion. Love is an action.

False, love is defined as a feeling. Expressing ones love would be an action, however love =/= expressing love. Since you are confusing the two, your argument is invalid.

"I love you" is cheap if you don't have actions to back it up.

You don't need actions, or words. If I was in a coma for the rest of my life, I could still love someone even if I didn't do anything but breath.

Even if you could not technically choose whom to "love," you could still choose who to dedicate your life and your resources to.

Even so, who said they choice was free? I am not question the fact that we make choices, I'm question the fact that they are actually free.

If you have feelings for two women, you could choose between one (or choose between all the potential mates out there).

Just because you chose one over the other, that doesn't mean you can't love both of them. Either way, even if a choice was made, who said it was free? How do you know that given the exact same circumstances, the same outcome wouldn't have had to occur due to all the deterministic causal mechanisms in place? There is nothing which rules that out or makes that unlikey.

Forced love is not true love at all.

Why not?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2013 9:09:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/5/2013 8:04:16 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 3/5/2013 4:39:42 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 3:25:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 3:17:17 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 2:54:03 PM, qopel wrote:
You can't believe without free will. That's the whole concept about faith. If God proved to you that he existed, you wouldn't need to make a choice. He doesn't give you any evidence for his existence, so yo have to chose to believe on faith. If you don't choose to believe on faith, you are an atheist. Faith is just an excuse to believe something without evidence. I takes free will to choose to be ignorant and gullible.

Free will is for the non-believer. You have the free will to reject the evidence in front of your face, to call it something else. You have the free will to say you're following the evidence...to the conclusion that the universe created itself, and life created itself. You have the free will to call that the "logical and rational" choice, if you wish. You have the free will to insult people for faith in God, while using faith yourself in other things. You have the free will to stay angry at believers and insult them every chance you get. You have the free will to love God, or deny He exists. That's why free will is important.

What evidence is there for free will? Just claiming that someone has free will, doesn't make it so.

Didn't we just do this a few days ago??

Our entire justice system is made on the assumption of free will, that people are responsible for making their own decisions. If free will doesn't exist, and people's actions aren't under their own control, then we have no right locking people up for anything because it's not their fault.

If free will doesn't exist, then we don't have the free will to stop locking people up in the manner that we do.

Who cares if we don't have that free will? As long as it gets done, that's all that matters.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/6/2013 6:24:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/5/2013 9:09:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 8:04:16 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 3/5/2013 4:39:42 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 3:25:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 3:17:17 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 2:54:03 PM, qopel wrote:
You can't believe without free will. That's the whole concept about faith. If God proved to you that he existed, you wouldn't need to make a choice. He doesn't give you any evidence for his existence, so yo have to chose to believe on faith. If you don't choose to believe on faith, you are an atheist. Faith is just an excuse to believe something without evidence. I takes free will to choose to be ignorant and gullible.

Free will is for the non-believer. You have the free will to reject the evidence in front of your face, to call it something else. You have the free will to say you're following the evidence...to the conclusion that the universe created itself, and life created itself. You have the free will to call that the "logical and rational" choice, if you wish. You have the free will to insult people for faith in God, while using faith yourself in other things. You have the free will to stay angry at believers and insult them every chance you get. You have the free will to love God, or deny He exists. That's why free will is important.

What evidence is there for free will? Just claiming that someone has free will, doesn't make it so.

Didn't we just do this a few days ago??

Our entire justice system is made on the assumption of free will, that people are responsible for making their own decisions. If free will doesn't exist, and people's actions aren't under their own control, then we have no right locking people up for anything because it's not their fault.

If free will doesn't exist, then we don't have the free will to stop locking people up in the manner that we do.

Who cares if we don't have that free will?

medic.

As long as it gets done, that's all that matters.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/6/2013 7:02:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/5/2013 9:09:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 8:04:16 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 3/5/2013 4:39:42 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 3:25:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 3:17:17 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 2:54:03 PM, qopel wrote:
You can't believe without free will. That's the whole concept about faith. If God proved to you that he existed, you wouldn't need to make a choice. He doesn't give you any evidence for his existence, so yo have to chose to believe on faith. If you don't choose to believe on faith, you are an atheist. Faith is just an excuse to believe something without evidence. I takes free will to choose to be ignorant and gullible.

Free will is for the non-believer. You have the free will to reject the evidence in front of your face, to call it something else. You have the free will to say you're following the evidence...to the conclusion that the universe created itself, and life created itself. You have the free will to call that the "logical and rational" choice, if you wish. You have the free will to insult people for faith in God, while using faith yourself in other things. You have the free will to stay angry at believers and insult them every chance you get. You have the free will to love God, or deny He exists. That's why free will is important.

What evidence is there for free will? Just claiming that someone has free will, doesn't make it so.

Didn't we just do this a few days ago??

Our entire justice system is made on the assumption of free will, that people are responsible for making their own decisions. If free will doesn't exist, and people's actions aren't under their own control, then we have no right locking people up for anything because it's not their fault.

If free will doesn't exist, then we don't have the free will to stop locking people up in the manner that we do.

Who cares if we don't have that free will? As long as it gets done, that's all that matters.

This statement is self refuting because it presupposes free will. If free will does not exist then our actions are predetermined, there is no reason to care and nothing matters.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
pozessed
Posts: 1,034
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/6/2013 8:40:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/5/2013 2:54:03 PM, qopel wrote:
You can't believe without free will. That's the whole concept about faith. If God proved to you that he existed, you wouldn't need to make a choice. He doesn't give you any evidence for his existence, so yo have to chose to believe on faith. If you don't choose to believe on faith, you are an atheist. Faith is just an excuse to believe something without evidence. I takes free will to choose to be ignorant and gullible.

Are you suggesting we have a choice between free will and faith?
Are you also suggesting if we believe it's faith we no longer have free will?
pozessed
Posts: 1,034
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/6/2013 8:42:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/5/2013 3:17:17 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 2:54:03 PM, qopel wrote:
You can't believe without free will. That's the whole concept about faith. If God proved to you that he existed, you wouldn't need to make a choice. He doesn't give you any evidence for his existence, so yo have to chose to believe on faith. If you don't choose to believe on faith, you are an atheist. Faith is just an excuse to believe something without evidence. I takes free will to choose to be ignorant and gullible.

Free will is for the non-believer. You have the free will to reject the evidence in front of your face, to call it something else. You have the free will to say you're following the evidence...to the conclusion that the universe created itself, and life created itself. You have the free will to call that the "logical and rational" choice, if you wish. You have the free will to insult people for faith in God, while using faith yourself in other things. You have the free will to stay angry at believers and insult them every chance you get. You have the free will to love God, or deny He exists. That's why free will is important.

Are you saying free will is an act of sin?
pozessed
Posts: 1,034
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/6/2013 8:47:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/5/2013 3:20:22 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 2:54:03 PM, qopel wrote:
You can't believe without free will. That's the whole concept about faith. If God proved to you that he existed, you wouldn't need to make a choice. He doesn't give you any evidence for his existence, so yo have to chose to believe on faith. If you don't choose to believe on faith, you are an atheist. Faith is just an excuse to believe something without evidence. I takes free will to choose to be ignorant and gullible.

Provide one scripture where faith is used in the context you describe. Actually the Bible describes faith as power and is used for results. Faith is SUBSTANCE and EVIDENCE. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen" lol. It is both EVIDENCE and SUBSTANCE. Faith produces evidence, when we use faith to believe God for something impossible we are relying on the power of God to accomplish something. What do you think about the parable of the mustard seed? Matthew 17:20, read that and tell me what faith is used for in a christian context.

Faith
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3.
belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5.
a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6.
the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7.
the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8.
Christian Theology . the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

The Biblical definition you define and societies definition are way different.

I'm not flaming, just wanted to point out that using that argument was kind of irrelevant in a modern discussion.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/6/2013 11:23:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/6/2013 8:47:22 AM, pozessed wrote:
At 3/5/2013 3:20:22 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 2:54:03 PM, qopel wrote:
You can't believe without free will. That's the whole concept about faith. If God proved to you that he existed, you wouldn't need to make a choice. He doesn't give you any evidence for his existence, so yo have to chose to believe on faith. If you don't choose to believe on faith, you are an atheist. Faith is just an excuse to believe something without evidence. I takes free will to choose to be ignorant and gullible.

Provide one scripture where faith is used in the context you describe. Actually the Bible describes faith as power and is used for results. Faith is SUBSTANCE and EVIDENCE. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen" lol. It is both EVIDENCE and SUBSTANCE. Faith produces evidence, when we use faith to believe God for something impossible we are relying on the power of God to accomplish something. What do you think about the parable of the mustard seed? Matthew 17:20, read that and tell me what faith is used for in a christian context.

Faith
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3.
belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5.
a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6.
the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7.
the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8.
Christian Theology . the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

The Biblical definition you define and societies definition are way different.

I'm not flaming, just wanted to point out that using that argument was kind of irrelevant in a modern discussion.

I know what Faith is and it's different meanings. Now, what I said was is to provide ONE scripture that uses faith in the context that he was describing. If we are to understand what faith is used for in a christian context then we should look at how it is used in scripture. I don't use faith to avoid evidence of God in my life, I use faith in God for results that provide evidence. Faith produces evidence. If you have any argument against the way in which myself or the Bible describes faith and what it is for then please provide the corresponding verses.

Of course it is relevant in a modern discussion I use faith in God all the time lol. That's what the Bible is for in case you did not know, it is for the reader to apply and understand and see it's fruit in their life. The Bible says that Faith is used for believing in God for something impossible, is it described as power and it is the bridgeway for a miracle. That means that Faith (in the context of scripture) is used to produce results. Nowhere in the Word does it tell us to believe in the existence of God in our life by using faith. Did you read the mustard seed parable???

I don't believe in doctrines because someone thinks so. I believe the Word because it produces evidence in my life that it is true.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/6/2013 2:58:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/6/2013 7:02:40 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 3/5/2013 9:09:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 8:04:16 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 3/5/2013 4:39:42 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 3:25:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 3:17:17 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 2:54:03 PM, qopel wrote:
You can't believe without free will. That's the whole concept about faith. If God proved to you that he existed, you wouldn't need to make a choice. He doesn't give you any evidence for his existence, so yo have to chose to believe on faith. If you don't choose to believe on faith, you are an atheist. Faith is just an excuse to believe something without evidence. I takes free will to choose to be ignorant and gullible.

Free will is for the non-believer. You have the free will to reject the evidence in front of your face, to call it something else. You have the free will to say you're following the evidence...to the conclusion that the universe created itself, and life created itself. You have the free will to call that the "logical and rational" choice, if you wish. You have the free will to insult people for faith in God, while using faith yourself in other things. You have the free will to stay angry at believers and insult them every chance you get. You have the free will to love God, or deny He exists. That's why free will is important.

What evidence is there for free will? Just claiming that someone has free will, doesn't make it so.

Didn't we just do this a few days ago??

Our entire justice system is made on the assumption of free will, that people are responsible for making their own decisions. If free will doesn't exist, and people's actions aren't under their own control, then we have no right locking people up for anything because it's not their fault.

If free will doesn't exist, then we don't have the free will to stop locking people up in the manner that we do.

Who cares if we don't have that free will? As long as it gets done, that's all that matters.

This statement is self refuting because it presupposes free will.

No it doesn't, at all lol

If free will does not exist then our actions are predetermined, there is no reason to care and nothing matters.

Non-sequitur. "Nothing matters" does not follow from "everything is predetermined". Thus, your point is invalid.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/6/2013 3:02:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/6/2013 7:02:40 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 3/5/2013 9:09:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 8:04:16 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 3/5/2013 4:39:42 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 3:25:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 3:17:17 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/5/2013 2:54:03 PM, qopel wrote:
You can't believe without free will. That's the whole concept about faith. If God proved to you that he existed, you wouldn't need to make a choice. He doesn't give you any evidence for his existence, so yo have to chose to believe on faith. If you don't choose to believe on faith, you are an atheist. Faith is just an excuse to believe something without evidence. I takes free will to choose to be ignorant and gullible.

Free will is for the non-believer. You have the free will to reject the evidence in front of your face, to call it something else. You have the free will to say you're following the evidence...to the conclusion that the universe created itself, and life created itself. You have the free will to call that the "logical and rational" choice, if you wish. You have the free will to insult people for faith in God, while using faith yourself in other things. You have the free will to stay angry at believers and insult them every chance you get. You have the free will to love God, or deny He exists. That's why free will is important.

What evidence is there for free will? Just claiming that someone has free will, doesn't make it so.

Didn't we just do this a few days ago??

Our entire justice system is made on the assumption of free will, that people are responsible for making their own decisions. If free will doesn't exist, and people's actions aren't under their own control, then we have no right locking people up for anything because it's not their fault.

If free will doesn't exist, then we don't have the free will to stop locking people up in the manner that we do.

Who cares if we don't have that free will? As long as it gets done, that's all that matters.

This statement is self refuting because it presupposes free will. If free will does not exist then our actions are predetermined, there is no reason to care and nothing matters.

Lets say someone was forced to stab me in the arm, that hurts. Since it hurts, it effects me, and thus, matters. Even though that person didn't have the free will to do it, and I did not have the will to feel the pain, I still felt it. This means, that things would still matter even if we assume free will doesn't exist. It really makes no difference if we have free will or not.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/6/2013 3:38:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Just to expand on this with more examples (I'm bored, what cam I say). If I flick on the TV to watch Family Guy, I will laugh because my brain recognizes the content and it sets off certain signals in my brain which produce chemical reactions which give me the feeling that I want to laugh. Whether I chose to flick on the TV to watch family guy freely, or whether this choice was determined by my biology and environment and not free, I'm still going to laugh. I fail to see how free will matters, as long as the result is the same. Did I freely chose to sip this beer, or was it forced, who cares? I'm still going to get a buzz. When I trip on ice and fall, whether that was due to a free choice I made earlier (deciding to get up and walk ect.) or whether it was forced, the bump is still going to hurt, and thus, matter just as much either way. Catch my drift? People act like free will matters in some way, when I really do not see how it is that important.