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Theology or Spirituality?

logicrules
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3/7/2013 8:43:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Having read posts on this forum for over a year I am struck by the ubiquitous denials of fact to explain some self held belief, and the, almost complete absence of theology. If God is Truth then it follows that an honest atheist is far better than a hypocritical Christian.

Theologies differ on nuances, based upon different religions constructs of Faith. EG Both Roman Catholics and Lutherans have Real Presence, one is transubstantial the other consubstantial. Spirituality is universal, that is without regard to theological foundation its advance is the same.

Lastly, If one could prove there is a God one would have no need for Faith.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,039
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3/7/2013 9:36:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 8:43:09 AM, logicrules wrote:
Having read posts on this forum for over a year I am struck by the ubiquitous denials of fact to explain some self held belief, and the, almost complete absence of theology. If God is Truth then it follows that an honest atheist is far better than a hypocritical Christian.

Theologies differ on nuances, based upon different religions constructs of Faith. EG Both Roman Catholics and Lutherans have Real Presence, one is transubstantial the other consubstantial. Spirituality is universal, that is without regard to theological foundation its advance is the same.

Lastly, If one could prove there is a God one would have no need for Faith.
logicrules If one could prove there is NO God one would have no need for Faith.

The atheist has "FAITH" there is NO god!
The atheist "BELIEVES" there is NO god!
The atheist CAN'T prove there is no god!

Dogknox
logicrules
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3/7/2013 9:47:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 9:36:27 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 3/7/2013 8:43:09 AM, logicrules wrote:
Having read posts on this forum for over a year I am struck by the ubiquitous denials of fact to explain some self held belief, and the, almost complete absence of theology. If God is Truth then it follows that an honest atheist is far better than a hypocritical Christian.

Theologies differ on nuances, based upon different religions constructs of Faith. EG Both Roman Catholics and Lutherans have Real Presence, one is transubstantial the other consubstantial. Spirituality is universal, that is without regard to theological foundation its advance is the same.

Lastly, If one could prove there is a God one would have no need for Faith.
logicrules If one could prove there is NO God one would have no need for Faith.

The atheist has "FAITH" there is NO god!
The atheist "BELIEVES" there is NO god!
The atheist CAN'T prove there is no god!

Dogknox

Pithy slogans are used for the ignorant and those who refuse to think. I suggest you distinguish between belief and knowledge and accept basic principles of reason, eg One can not prove a negative, hence the bringer of the affirmative always bears the burden.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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3/7/2013 9:54:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 8:43:09 AM, logicrules wrote:
Having read posts on this forum for over a year I am struck by the ubiquitous denials of fact to explain some self held belief, and the, almost complete absence of theology. If God is Truth then it follows that an honest atheist is far better than a hypocritical Christian.

Theologies differ on nuances, based upon different religions constructs of Faith. EG Both Roman Catholics and Lutherans have Real Presence, one is transubstantial the other consubstantial. Spirituality is universal, that is without regard to theological foundation its advance is the same.

Lastly, If one could prove there is a God one would have no need for Faith.

could you give me a Biblical example with verses to describe faith in this context please? In other words, can you please show me in the Bible where we are to use faith as you describe. I'm not asking for the definition of faith, I want you to point out in the Bible what faith is for.
logicrules
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3/7/2013 10:06:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 9:54:17 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/7/2013 8:43:09 AM, logicrules wrote:
Having read posts on this forum for over a year I am struck by the ubiquitous denials of fact to explain some self held belief, and the, almost complete absence of theology. If God is Truth then it follows that an honest atheist is far better than a hypocritical Christian.

Theologies differ on nuances, based upon different religions constructs of Faith. EG Both Roman Catholics and Lutherans have Real Presence, one is transubstantial the other consubstantial. Spirituality is universal, that is without regard to theological foundation its advance is the same.

Lastly, If one could prove there is a God one would have no need for Faith.

could you give me a Biblical example with verses to describe faith in this context please? In other words, can you please show me in the Bible where we are to use faith as you describe. I'm not asking for the definition of faith, I want you to point out in the Bible what faith is for.

That depends, what "bible" do you use? The most recognized use of the term is in the parable of the mustard seed. It is also used in reference to the covenant of the Jews in the OT. In either case it is clear that one's faith is a gift from God not something one can go out and get. FYI, The construct of the gift of Faith transcends religious constructs with the exception being some US congregations.
matt.mcguire88
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3/7/2013 10:27:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Exactly, the parable of the mustard seed, so then you know that faith produces evidence? That is what my point is. The context you use faith is incorrect (for that of a christian anyway). It does not mean that there is no evidence of God in our lives. There SHOULD be evidence that God is active in ones life. Therefore faith is not some excuse to avoid reason and proof that God exists. Faith is used to produce that which we cannot; for God to accomplish that which is impossible for us.

If someone refers to Moses or Abraham as having faith, what are they saying? If faith simply means to accept God without evidence, then how could have Moses, Abraham, Jesus ect of had faith??? All of them saw or talked with God, so they KNEW He existed, so how could they have had faith? The answer is we use faith to BELIEVE God, not believe in Him lol. Now let me make sense of that........

When we trust God or obey His instruction, we are trusting God for that outcome. When we use faith we are believing God to accomplish something that would seem impossible. So in other words we are using faith for a result and as power. Faith in the Bible is an action word, it is not a substitute for reason or evidence, it IS substance and evidence. Why would Jesus compare faith to a mustard seed?? Because you plant a mustard seed for a harvest. Why did Jesus say "ye of little faith", because they did not believe in the ability of God. Why did Jesus tell the woman "according to your faith" it is done? Because when she had "faith" or trust in God to heal, it happened.
Why does God say that without Faith you cannot please Him? Because God wants you to believe that All things are "possible".
matt.mcguire88
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3/7/2013 10:33:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 10:06:52 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/7/2013 9:54:17 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/7/2013 8:43:09 AM, logicrules wrote:
Having read posts on this forum for over a year I am struck by the ubiquitous denials of fact to explain some self held belief, and the, almost complete absence of theology. If God is Truth then it follows that an honest atheist is far better than a hypocritical Christian.

Theologies differ on nuances, based upon different religions constructs of Faith. EG Both Roman Catholics and Lutherans have Real Presence, one is transubstantial the other consubstantial. Spirituality is universal, that is without regard to theological foundation its advance is the same.

Lastly, If one could prove there is a God one would have no need for Faith.

could you give me a Biblical example with verses to describe faith in this context please? In other words, can you please show me in the Bible where we are to use faith as you describe. I'm not asking for the definition of faith, I want you to point out in the Bible what faith is for.

That depends, what "bible" do you use? The most recognized use of the term is in the parable of the mustard seed. It is also used in reference to the covenant of the Jews in the OT. In either case it is clear that one's faith is a gift from God not something one can go out and get. FYI, The construct of the gift of Faith transcends religious constructs with the exception being some US congregations.

I never said that faith was not a gift from God, of course it is. You cannot go out and get it, that is correct, faith is developed and grown into the believer, it does not come automatically.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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3/7/2013 11:37:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 10:27:35 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Exactly, the parable of the mustard seed, so then you know that faith produces evidence? That is what my point is. The context you use faith is incorrect (for that of a christian anyway). It does not mean that there is no evidence of God in our lives. There SHOULD be evidence that God is active in ones life. Therefore faith is not some excuse to avoid reason and proof that God exists. Faith is used to produce that which we cannot; for God to accomplish that which is impossible for us.

If someone refers to Moses or Abraham as having faith, what are they saying? If faith simply means to accept God without evidence, then how could have Moses, Abraham, Jesus ect of had faith??? All of them saw or talked with God, so they KNEW He existed, so how could they have had faith? The answer is we use faith to BELIEVE God, not believe in Him lol. Now let me make sense of that........

When we trust God or obey His instruction, we are trusting God for that outcome. When we use faith we are believing God to accomplish something that would seem impossible. So in other words we are using faith for a result and as power. Faith in the Bible is an action word, it is not a substitute for reason or evidence, it IS substance and evidence. Why would Jesus compare faith to a mustard seed?? Because you plant a mustard seed for a harvest. Why did Jesus say "ye of little faith", because they did not believe in the ability of God. Why did Jesus tell the woman "according to your faith" it is done? Because when she had "faith" or trust in God to heal, it happened.
Why does God say that without Faith you cannot please Him? Because God wants you to believe that All things are "possible".

No, what I know is that my faith is small. I know that if someone had faith but the size of a mustard seed mountains would move, ergo I infer no one has. Evidence is purely humans need, and we have gone to great pains to establish impartial determiners of same because individually we are flawed.

You understanding of scripture seems rather fundamentalist. I know that scripture is errant yet infallible, you chose parts, out of context (faith) to justify your position. One moment, one slight millisecond of faith suffices for God....when at death there would be no evidence for you. Thus you either choose to misread the totality of Faith in the Scriptures, or you have a problem with those you think not as deserving as you enjoying salvation. I know not which.

Jesus had absolute perfect faith....look how he was treated.
Dogknox
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3/8/2013 9:12:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 9:47:29 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/7/2013 9:36:27 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 3/7/2013 8:43:09 AM, logicrules wrote:
Having read posts on this forum for over a year I am struck by the ubiquitous denials of fact to explain some self held belief, and the, almost complete absence of theology. If God is Truth then it follows that an honest atheist is far better than a hypocritical Christian.

Theologies differ on nuances, based upon different religions constructs of Faith. EG Both Roman Catholics and Lutherans have Real Presence, one is transubstantial the other consubstantial. Spirituality is universal, that is without regard to theological foundation its advance is the same.

Lastly, If one could prove there is a God one would have no need for Faith.
logicrules If one could prove there is NO God one would have no need for Faith.

The atheist has "FAITH" there is NO god!
The atheist "BELIEVES" there is NO god!
The atheist CAN'T prove there is no god!

Dogknox

Pithy slogans are used for the ignorant and those who refuse to think. I suggest you distinguish between belief and knowledge and accept basic principles of reason, eg One can not prove a negative, hence the bringer of the affirmative always bears the burden.
logicrules Right you are.. One can not prove a negative Thus saying, "There is NO God" CAN'T BE PROVEN!!! duh!!

All you have is your own faith.. FAITH that there is no God!!
You have your BELIEFS!!
You BELIEVE there is no god!

You CAN'T prove a negative so don't even try to prove there is no god!
FAITH and only FAITH is all you have got!

Dogknox
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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3/8/2013 9:16:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Dogknox: "You CAN'T prove a negative so don't even try to prove there is no god!"

Anna: Good. You can't prove, "The church which Jesus established is not what we call 'the church of Christ' today." That's a negative.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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3/8/2013 9:45:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 11:37:22 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/7/2013 10:27:35 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Exactly, the parable of the mustard seed, so then you know that faith produces evidence? That is what my point is. The context you use faith is incorrect (for that of a christian anyway). It does not mean that there is no evidence of God in our lives. There SHOULD be evidence that God is active in ones life. Therefore faith is not some excuse to avoid reason and proof that God exists. Faith is used to produce that which we cannot; for God to accomplish that which is impossible for us.

If someone refers to Moses or Abraham as having faith, what are they saying? If faith simply means to accept God without evidence, then how could have Moses, Abraham, Jesus ect of had faith??? All of them saw or talked with God, so they KNEW He existed, so how could they have had faith? The answer is we use faith to BELIEVE God, not believe in Him lol. Now let me make sense of that........

When we trust God or obey His instruction, we are trusting God for that outcome. When we use faith we are believing God to accomplish something that would seem impossible. So in other words we are using faith for a result and as power. Faith in the Bible is an action word, it is not a substitute for reason or evidence, it IS substance and evidence. Why would Jesus compare faith to a mustard seed?? Because you plant a mustard seed for a harvest. Why did Jesus say "ye of little faith", because they did not believe in the ability of God. Why did Jesus tell the woman "according to your faith" it is done? Because when she had "faith" or trust in God to heal, it happened.
Why does God say that without Faith you cannot please Him? Because God wants you to believe that All things are "possible".

No, what I know is that my faith is small.

Yes it is, what a shame.

I know that if someone had faith but the size of a mustard seed mountains would move, ergo I infer no one has.

No one ever has?? I do, I feel bad for ya. First of all if you don't use faith to believe God for things in your life then I just don't know what you are? Jesus uses physical analogies to describe spiritual principles, you do understand that right? He wasn't saying go remove mountains lol, He was demonstrating that all things are possible with God when we have faith. That applies to all of our lives, whether they believe it or not. I've never met a bunch of "christians" who didn't believe in the power of God or understand what faith means. Do you pray?? Are you saying that you have never asked or believed God for something?? Because that is exactly what He is saying here. When you have faith in God you are believing God for something that would seem impossible.

Have you ever prayed for anyone lol? Because if you have not, then you will be the only christian I ever met that said so, though around here maybe not. You have never prayed for anyone at the request that God would intervene in a situation for a miracle? I use faith to believe God for impossible circumstances throughout my entire adult life. God is good and God's Word is true.

Evidence is purely humans need, and we have gone to great pains to establish impartial determiners of same because individually we are flawed.

I have no idea what you are talking about, you sound drunk?

You understanding of scripture seems rather fundamentalist.

Do explain, coherently please.

I know that scripture is errant yet infallible, you chose parts, out of context (faith) to justify your position

And what position would that be sir??? I choose parts??? I didn't choose anything nor do I have any motive here to justify any position. If you have a dispute, please refer to scripture, other wise I could care less about your religious opinion.

. One moment, one slight millisecond of faith suffices for God....when at death there would be no evidence for you. Thus you either choose to misread the totality of Faith in the Scriptures, or you have a problem with those you think not as deserving as you enjoying salvation. I know not which.

Are you well? If so make some sense here please.

Jesus had absolute perfect faith....look how he was treated.

And again??? What is your point?
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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3/8/2013 10:04:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 11:37:22 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/7/2013 10:27:35 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Exactly, the parable of the mustard seed, so then you know that faith produces evidence? That is what my point is. The context you use faith is incorrect (for that of a christian anyway). It does not mean that there is no evidence of God in our lives. There SHOULD be evidence that God is active in ones life. Therefore faith is not some excuse to avoid reason and proof that God exists. Faith is used to produce that which we cannot; for God to accomplish that which is impossible for us.

If someone refers to Moses or Abraham as having faith, what are they saying? If faith simply means to accept God without evidence, then how could have Moses, Abraham, Jesus ect of had faith??? All of them saw or talked with God, so they KNEW He existed, so how could they have had faith? The answer is we use faith to BELIEVE God, not believe in Him lol. Now let me make sense of that........

When we trust God or obey His instruction, we are trusting God for that outcome. When we use faith we are believing God to accomplish something that would seem impossible. So in other words we are using faith for a result and as power. Faith in the Bible is an action word, it is not a substitute for reason or evidence, it IS substance and evidence. Why would Jesus compare faith to a mustard seed?? Because you plant a mustard seed for a harvest. Why did Jesus say "ye of little faith", because they did not believe in the ability of God. Why did Jesus tell the woman "according to your faith" it is done? Because when she had "faith" or trust in God to heal, it happened.
Why does God say that without Faith you cannot please Him? Because God wants you to believe that All things are "possible".

No, what I know is that my faith is small. I know that if someone had faith but the size of a mustard seed mountains would move, ergo I infer no one has. Evidence is purely humans need, and we have gone to great pains to establish impartial determiners of same because individually we are flawed.

You understanding of scripture seems rather fundamentalist. I know that scripture is errant yet infallible, you chose parts, out of context (faith) to justify your position. One moment, one slight millisecond of faith suffices for God....when at death there would be no evidence for you. Thus you either choose to misread the totality of Faith in the Scriptures, or you have a problem with those you think not as deserving as you enjoying salvation. I know not which.

Jesus had absolute perfect faith....look how he was treated.

And let me know which verses on Faith you would like to discuss, you know, the ones YOU would approve of. I'm curious as to what you base your beliefs on.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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3/9/2013 5:38:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 8:43:09 AM, logicrules wrote:
Having read posts on this forum for over a year I am struck by the ubiquitous denials of fact to explain some self held belief, and the, almost complete absence of theology. If God is Truth then it follows that an honest atheist is far better than a hypocritical Christian.

I don't think it follows that if God is Truth, then one who denies its existence is better than one who admits it. At best you could claim that the hypocrite isn't following what he knows to be the truth, but at least he doesn't deny the existence of the Truth.

Theologies differ on nuances, based upon different religions constructs of Faith. EG Both Roman Catholics and Lutherans have Real Presence, one is transubstantial the other consubstantial. Spirituality is universal, that is without regard to theological foundation its advance is the same.

Lastly, If one could prove there is a God one would have no need for Faith.

True, but so is Dog's version. If you could prove there is no God there would be no reason for the atheist to have faith.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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3/9/2013 7:00:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/8/2013 9:45:54 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/7/2013 11:37:22 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/7/2013 10:27:35 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Exactly, the parable of the mustard seed, so then you know that faith produces evidence? That is what my point is. The context you use faith is incorrect (for that of a christian anyway). It does not mean that there is no evidence of God in our lives. There SHOULD be evidence that God is active in ones life. Therefore faith is not some excuse to avoid reason and proof that God exists. Faith is used to produce that which we cannot; for God to accomplish that which is impossible for us.

If someone refers to Moses or Abraham as having faith, what are they saying? If faith simply means to accept God without evidence, then how could have Moses, Abraham, Jesus ect of had faith??? All of them saw or talked with God, so they KNEW He existed, so how could they have had faith? The answer is we use faith to BELIEVE God, not believe in Him lol. Now let me make sense of that........

When we trust God or obey His instruction, we are trusting God for that outcome. When we use faith we are believing God to accomplish something that would seem impossible. So in other words we are using faith for a result and as power. Faith in the Bible is an action word, it is not a substitute for reason or evidence, it IS substance and evidence. Why would Jesus compare faith to a mustard seed?? Because you plant a mustard seed for a harvest. Why did Jesus say "ye of little faith", because they did not believe in the ability of God. Why did Jesus tell the woman "according to your faith" it is done? Because when she had "faith" or trust in God to heal, it happened.
Why does God say that without Faith you cannot please Him? Because God wants you to believe that All things are "possible".

No, what I know is that my faith is small.

Yes it is, what a shame.

I know that if someone had faith but the size of a mustard seed mountains would move, ergo I infer no one has.

No one ever has?? I do, I feel bad for ya. First of all if you don't use faith to believe God for things in your life then I just don't know what you are? Jesus uses physical analogies to describe spiritual principles, you do understand that right? He wasn't saying go remove mountains lol, He was demonstrating that all things are possible with God when we have faith. That applies to all of our lives, whether they believe it or not. I've never met a bunch of "christians" who didn't believe in the power of God or understand what faith means. Do you pray?? Are you saying that you have never asked or believed God for something?? Because that is exactly what He is saying here. When you have faith in God you are believing God for something that would seem impossible.

Have you ever prayed for anyone lol? Because if you have not, then you will be the only christian I ever met that said so, though around here maybe not. You have never prayed for anyone at the request that God would intervene in a situation for a miracle? I use faith to believe God for impossible circumstances throughout my entire adult life. God is good and God's Word is true.

Evidence is purely humans need, and we have gone to great pains to establish impartial determiners of same because individually we are flawed.

I have no idea what you are talking about, you sound drunk?


You understanding of scripture seems rather fundamentalist.

Do explain, coherently please.

I know that scripture is errant yet infallible, you chose parts, out of context (faith) to justify your position

And what position would that be sir??? I choose parts??? I didn't choose anything nor do I have any motive here to justify any position. If you have a dispute, please refer to scripture, other wise I could care less about your religious opinion.


. One moment, one slight millisecond of faith suffices for God....when at death there would be no evidence for you. Thus you either choose to misread the totality of Faith in the Scriptures, or you have a problem with those you think not as deserving as you enjoying salvation. I know not which.

Are you well? If so make some sense here please.

Jesus had absolute perfect faith....look how he was treated.

And again??? What is your point?

Point 1. The standard of perfect faith is Jesus the Christ. The treatment one will receive as a person of faith will be the same as that which Jesus received.

Point 2. Spirituality transcends theology in that it is universal. A Sufi mystic and a Catholic mystic agree.

Point 3. Most of the comments on here reflect an almost complete ignorance of theology.

As to your lack of understanding, be specific as to what confused you.
logicrules
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3/9/2013 7:03:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/9/2013 5:38:36 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/7/2013 8:43:09 AM, logicrules wrote:
Having read posts on this forum for over a year I am struck by the ubiquitous denials of fact to explain some self held belief, and the, almost complete absence of theology. If God is Truth then it follows that an honest atheist is far better than a hypocritical Christian.

I don't think it follows that if God is Truth, then one who denies its existence is better than one who admits it. At best you could claim that the hypocrite isn't following what he knows to be the truth, but at least he doesn't deny the existence of the Truth.

Theologies differ on nuances, based upon different religions constructs of Faith. EG Both Roman Catholics and Lutherans have Real Presence, one is transubstantial the other consubstantial. Spirituality is universal, that is without regard to theological foundation its advance is the same.

Lastly, If one could prove there is a God one would have no need for Faith.

True, but so is Dog's version. If you could prove there is no God there would be no reason for the atheist to have faith.

Well if the Truth is that one does not believe then living honestly in Truth trumps most Christians. As to Dog....He is well intended but lacks understanding of the differences between Dogma and Doctrine. I think he should exercise more caution as much of what he posts is contrary to Catholic Teaching.
logicrules
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3/9/2013 7:08:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/8/2013 9:12:58 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 3/7/2013 9:47:29 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/7/2013 9:36:27 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 3/7/2013 8:43:09 AM, logicrules wrote:
Having read posts on this forum for over a year I am struck by the ubiquitous denials of fact to explain some self held belief, and the, almost complete absence of theology. If God is Truth then it follows that an honest atheist is far better than a hypocritical Christian.

Theologies differ on nuances, based upon different religions constructs of Faith. EG Both Roman Catholics and Lutherans have Real Presence, one is transubstantial the other consubstantial. Spirituality is universal, that is without regard to theological foundation its advance is the same.

Lastly, If one could prove there is a God one would have no need for Faith.
logicrules If one could prove there is NO God one would have no need for Faith.

The atheist has "FAITH" there is NO god!
The atheist "BELIEVES" there is NO god!
The atheist CAN'T prove there is no god!

Dogknox

Pithy slogans are used for the ignorant and those who refuse to think. I suggest you distinguish between belief and knowledge and accept basic principles of reason, eg One can not prove a negative, hence the bringer of the affirmative always bears the burden.
logicrules Right you are.. One can not prove a negative Thus saying, "There is NO God" CAN'T BE PROVEN!!! duh!!

All you have is your own faith.. FAITH that there is no God!!
You have your BELIEFS!!
You BELIEVE there is no god!

You CAN'T prove a negative so don't even try to prove there is no god!
FAITH and only FAITH is all you have got!

Dogknox

If one's conscience informs that there can not be a god then to say otherwise would be, for that person, wrong. If a believer attempts to change that persons view and believes the words of humans are sufficient...the believer is wrong. Truthful atheists have a better chance at heaven than most Christians, accorfing tRoman Catholic Church and the Scripture.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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3/9/2013 9:17:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"If one's conscience informs that there can not be a god then to say otherwise would be, for that person, wrong. If a believer attempts to change that persons view and believes the words of humans are sufficient...the believer is wrong. Truthful atheists have a better chance at heaven than most Christians, accorfing tRoman Catholic Church and the Scripture."

I have no idea what you are trying to say: truthful atheists have no chance at all at heaven, and I know of no scripture which says they do. I also was not aware that the Roman Catholic church teaches that atheists - people who lived and died as atheists - go to heaven, and indeed have a better chance at heaven than "most Christians."
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
logicrules
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3/9/2013 9:21:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/9/2013 9:17:26 AM, annanicole wrote:
"If one's conscience informs that there can not be a god then to say otherwise would be, for that person, wrong. If a believer attempts to change that persons view and believes the words of humans are sufficient...the believer is wrong. Truthful atheists have a better chance at heaven than most Christians, accorfing tRoman Catholic Church and the Scripture."

I have no idea what you are trying to say: truthful atheists have no chance at all at heaven, and I know of no scripture which says they do. I also was not aware that the Roman Catholic church teaches that atheists - people who lived and died as atheists - go to heaven, and indeed have a better chance at heaven than "most Christians."

If there is a heaven, sure atheists get in. The Catholic church teaches there is a hell...as to its population the RCC is silent. Just a the thief of scripture entered heaven so too atheists...probably.
annanicole
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3/9/2013 9:33:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/9/2013 9:21:06 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/9/2013 9:17:26 AM, annanicole wrote:
"If one's conscience informs that there can not be a god then to say otherwise would be, for that person, wrong. If a believer attempts to change that persons view and believes the words of humans are sufficient...the believer is wrong. Truthful atheists have a better chance at heaven than most Christians, accorfing tRoman Catholic Church and the Scripture."

I have no idea what you are trying to say: truthful atheists have no chance at all at heaven, and I know of no scripture which says they do. I also was not aware that the Roman Catholic church teaches that atheists - people who lived and died as atheists - go to heaven, and indeed have a better chance at heaven than "most Christians."

If there is a heaven, sure atheists get in. The Catholic church teaches there is a hell...as to its population the RCC is silent. Just a the thief of scripture entered heaven so too atheists...probably.

The thief did not enter heaven in the first place - he entered Paradise in Hades. But nevertheless, the thief was not an atheist. Do you have any statement from the Roman Catholic church that heaven will be populated with atheists? You said they teach it, so I'd like to see it. I'm not saying they don't, for Lord knows they teach all kinds of silly stuff. I'm simply saying I haven't seen any such statement, and I'd like to.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
logicrules
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3/9/2013 9:42:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/9/2013 9:33:40 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/9/2013 9:21:06 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/9/2013 9:17:26 AM, annanicole wrote:
"If one's conscience informs that there can not be a god then to say otherwise would be, for that person, wrong. If a believer attempts to change that persons view and believes the words of humans are sufficient...the believer is wrong. Truthful atheists have a better chance at heaven than most Christians, accorfing tRoman Catholic Church and the Scripture."

I have no idea what you are trying to say: truthful atheists have no chance at all at heaven, and I know of no scripture which says they do. I also was not aware that the Roman Catholic church teaches that atheists - people who lived and died as atheists - go to heaven, and indeed have a better chance at heaven than "most Christians."

If there is a heaven, sure atheists get in. The Catholic church teaches there is a hell...as to its population the RCC is silent. Just a the thief of scripture entered heaven so too atheists...probably.

The thief did not enter heaven in the first place - he entered Paradise in Hades. But nevertheless, the thief was not an atheist. Do you have any statement from the Roman Catholic church that heaven will be populated with atheists? You said they teach it, so I'd like to see it. I'm not saying they don't, for Lord knows they teach all kinds of silly stuff. I'm simply saying I haven't seen any such statement, and I'd like to.

LOL No, I do have the Theology of the RCC concerning Salvation and the Incarnation as well as it's silence on who, if anyone is in hell. Base on your post I shall presume you are not catholic, and further that you prefer subjectivism to objectivism. It is perfectly withing the teaching of the rcc to claim that no one is in hell, to identify any person by name or behavior as being in hell is contrary to the fundamental principle of the Incarnation, after all only God knows. Thus, it is far more probable that atheists are in heaven than those who cry Lord Lord. Personally...I think it is almost impossible to go to Hell, Hades (roman or Greek), or even the garbage dump of the afterlife.
annanicole
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3/9/2013 9:47:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/9/2013 9:42:22 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/9/2013 9:33:40 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/9/2013 9:21:06 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/9/2013 9:17:26 AM, annanicole wrote:
"If one's conscience informs that there can not be a god then to say otherwise would be, for that person, wrong. If a believer attempts to change that persons view and believes the words of humans are sufficient...the believer is wrong. Truthful atheists have a better chance at heaven than most Christians, accorfing tRoman Catholic Church and the Scripture."

I have no idea what you are trying to say: truthful atheists have no chance at all at heaven, and I know of no scripture which says they do. I also was not aware that the Roman Catholic church teaches that atheists - people who lived and died as atheists - go to heaven, and indeed have a better chance at heaven than "most Christians."

If there is a heaven, sure atheists get in. The Catholic church teaches there is a hell...as to its population the RCC is silent. Just a the thief of scripture entered heaven so too atheists...probably.

The thief did not enter heaven in the first place - he entered Paradise in Hades. But nevertheless, the thief was not an atheist. Do you have any statement from the Roman Catholic church that heaven will be populated with atheists? You said they teach it, so I'd like to see it. I'm not saying they don't, for Lord knows they teach all kinds of silly stuff. I'm simply saying I haven't seen any such statement, and I'd like to.

LOL No, I do have the Theology of the RCC concerning Salvation and the Incarnation as well as it's silence on who, if anyone is in hell. Base on your post I shall presume you are not catholic,

I'm catholic, but not Catholic.

and further that you prefer subjectivism to objectivism.

I have no idea.

It is perfectly withing the teaching of the rcc to claim that no one is in hell,

Well, I'd say no one is in hell either. Judgment Day has not yet arrived. No one is in heaven, either, save God.

to identify any person by name or behavior as being in hell is contrary to the fundamental principle of the Incarnation, after all only God knows.

Untrue.

Thus, it is far more probable that atheists are in heaven than those who cry Lord Lord.

Untrue as well.

Personally...I think it is almost impossible to go to Hell, Hades (roman or Greek), or even the garbage dump of the afterlife.

Everyone goes to hades. It's a certainty - not an improbabilty.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
logicrules
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3/9/2013 9:55:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/9/2013 9:47:56 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/9/2013 9:42:22 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/9/2013 9:33:40 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/9/2013 9:21:06 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/9/2013 9:17:26 AM, annanicole wrote:
"If one's conscience informs that there can not be a god then to say otherwise would be, for that person, wrong. If a believer attempts to change that persons view and believes the words of humans are sufficient...the believer is wrong. Truthful atheists have a better chance at heaven than most Christians, accorfing tRoman Catholic Church and the Scripture."

I have no idea what you are trying to say: truthful atheists have no chance at all at heaven, and I know of no scripture which says they do. I also was not aware that the Roman Catholic church teaches that atheists - people who lived and died as atheists - go to heaven, and indeed have a better chance at heaven than "most Christians."

If there is a heaven, sure atheists get in. The Catholic church teaches there is a hell...as to its population the RCC is silent. Just a the thief of scripture entered heaven so too atheists...probably.

The thief did not enter heaven in the first place - he entered Paradise in Hades. But nevertheless, the thief was not an atheist. Do you have any statement from the Roman Catholic church that heaven will be populated with atheists? You said they teach it, so I'd like to see it. I'm not saying they don't, for Lord knows they teach all kinds of silly stuff. I'm simply saying I haven't seen any such statement, and I'd like to.

LOL No, I do have the Theology of the RCC concerning Salvation and the Incarnation as well as it's silence on who, if anyone is in hell. Base on your post I shall presume you are not catholic,

I'm catholic, but not Catholic.

and further that you prefer subjectivism to objectivism.

I have no idea.

It is perfectly withing the teaching of the rcc to claim that no one is in hell,

Well, I'd say no one is in hell either. Judgment Day has not yet arrived. No one is in heaven, either, save God.

to identify any person by name or behavior as being in hell is contrary to the fundamental principle of the Incarnation, after all only God knows.

Untrue.

Thus, it is far more probable that atheists are in heaven than those who cry Lord Lord.

Untrue as well.

Personally...I think it is almost impossible to go to Hell, Hades (roman or Greek), or even the garbage dump of the afterlife.

Everyone goes to hades. It's a certainty - not an improbabilty.

See, you have no theological construct, this requires that you conform God to your understanding. You hold that Jesus isnt in heaven...I do not. You think your reading of the bible gives you complete wisdom...I know my reading does not. You think the use of ancient terminology changes the metaphysical reality as created....I do not. Allah, Yahweh or Zoroaster....Only one God.

Time is a human creation....for God its all now.
annanicole
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3/9/2013 10:48:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"See, you have no theological construct, this requires that you conform God to your understanding."

No, my theology requires that I conform to God as He has revealed Himself in the scriptures - not vice versa.

"You hold that Jesus isnt in heaven...I do not."

I said precisely the opposite: Jesus obviously is in heaven.

You think your reading of the bible gives you complete wisdom...I know my reading does not.

No, the wisdom I obtain by reading the Bible only goes so far. There are plenty of things that God has seen not to reveal to mankind. As such, mankind's wisdom cannot possibly be "complete" - nor would I be so presumptuous as to think "complete" wisdom is remotely possible in this life.

You think the use of ancient terminology changes the metaphysical reality as created....I do not. Allah, Yahweh or Zoroaster....Only one God.

I think? I also "thought" that Jesus was not in heaven - but somehow I think He is. I also "thought" that I could obtain "complete" wisdom, somehow - but I don't. Now I "think" that using "ancient terminology" changes reality. Are you serious? I "think" the Bible and the Bible alone REVEALS reality to man. The Holy Scriptures reveal metaphysics to man. Honestly, I do not know what you believe - but I know that at least some of it runs contrary to Biblical teaching.

Time is a human creation....for God its all now.

That's not true either. God is very aware of time: He created it just as He did everything else. The Bible is replete with God's awareness of time. Many, many prophecies inspired by God, originating with God, have a time element linked to them.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
logicrules
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3/9/2013 10:56:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/9/2013 10:48:09 AM, annanicole wrote:
"See, you have no theological construct, this requires that you conform God to your understanding."

No, my theology requires that I conform to God as He has revealed Himself in the scriptures - not vice versa.

"You hold that Jesus isnt in heaven...I do not."

I said precisely the opposite: Jesus obviously is in heaven.

You think your reading of the bible gives you complete wisdom...I know my reading does not.

No, the wisdom I obtain by reading the Bible only goes so far. There are plenty of things that God has seen not to reveal to mankind. As such, mankind's wisdom cannot possibly be "complete" - nor would I be so presumptuous as to think "complete" wisdom is remotely possible in this life.

You think the use of ancient terminology changes the metaphysical reality as created....I do not. Allah, Yahweh or Zoroaster....Only one God.

I think? I also "thought" that Jesus was not in heaven - but somehow I think He is. I also "thought" that I could obtain "complete" wisdom, somehow - but I don't. Now I "think" that using "ancient terminology" changes reality. Are you serious? I "think" the Bible and the Bible alone REVEALS reality to man. The Holy Scriptures reveal metaphysics to man. Honestly, I do not know what you believe - but I know that at least some of it runs contrary to Biblical teaching.

Time is a human creation....for God its all now.

That's not true either. God is very aware of time: He created it just as He did everything else. The Bible is replete with God's awareness of time. Many, many prophecies inspired by God, originating with God, have a time element linked to them.

See....Your answers establish the truth. You have NO theology, you have reading ability. That is fine, but it makes it difficult for you. EG If I say the incarnation is the final act of creation, I think you would be confused. Your method is far to limiting for me, as I think humans, though well intended, mess things up more than not. The story of Adam and Ever shows us the stupidity of humans.

The bible is historical not history. One can not hear the Word, if concerned about the words.
annanicole
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3/9/2013 11:19:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
See....Your answers establish the truth.

No, God establishes truth, and He does so through the written word.

You have NO theology, you have reading ability.

Theology is simply the study of God. Since God reveals Himself to man primarily through the written word, the two go together.

That is fine, but it makes it difficult for you.

Not difficult at all. I know nothing of God save what He has seen fit to reveal to me through the written word. It seems to me that someone who is NOT governed solely by Biblical teaching is the one enmeshed in difficulties.

EG If I say the incarnation is the final act of creation, I think you would be confused.

No, I would simply say that the Bible does not teach any such thing. I'm not confused about it.

Your method is far to limiting for me, as I think humans, though well intended, mess things up more than not.

Perhaps. And we may have a prime example of it here. That's why all humans must have a standard means by which truth is determined. My source for such revelation is the Bible, the Holy Scriptures. I do not know exactly what yours is.

The story of Adam and Ever shows us the stupidity of humans.

No, it doesn't.

The bible is historical not history.

The Bible is both.

One can not hear the Word, if concerned about the words.

The Word is revealed through words.

The difference between us is ultimately going to boil down to this: we have a different attitude toward the scriptures ... toward the Bible. Fundamentally different. I'm not sure what your attitude is, but I'm certain that it's different than mine. For one thing, I do not seek to force short-comings, lacks, incompleteness, etc upon the Bible. I'm not sure whether you do or not - and if so, I'm not sure of the extent of it, but Catholics in general tend to do so. I actually believe that all scripture is given by the inspiration of God - that God "breathed" His words and thoughts in certain men, and those words were recorded and perpetuated for the understanding of future generations.

Exactly what is your "theology" - your study of God - based upon - in order of importance? Do you have any sources of God in addition to the Bible? If so, what are they? What do you think you know about God that you did not learn from the Bible? Anything?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
logicrules
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3/9/2013 11:40:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The story of Adam and Ever shows us the stupidity of humans.

No, it doesn't.

The bible is historical not history.

The Bible is both.

One can not hear the Word, if concerned about the words.

The Word is revealed through words.

The difference between us is ultimately going to boil down to this: we have a different attitude toward the scriptures ... toward the Bible. Fundamentally different. I'm not sure what your attitude is, but I'm certain that it's different than mine. For one thing, I do not seek to force short-comings, lacks, incompleteness, etc upon the Bible. I'm not sure whether you do or not - and if so, I'm not sure of the extent of it, but Catholics in general tend to do so. I actually believe that all scripture is given by the inspiration of God - that God "breathed" His words and thoughts in certain men, and those words were recorded and perpetuated for the understanding of future generations.

Exactly what is your "theology" - your study of God - based upon - in order of importance? Do you have any sources of God in addition to the Bible? If so, what are they? What do you think you know about God that you did not learn from the Bible? Anything?

The Word is God and is Jesus the Christ. My theology is simple really, God created all that is and the Incarnation fulfilled that creation making it dignified. Inasmuch as God is infinite, those things which see to limit must be not of God. You seem to limit. ave you ever taken even a basic theology class so as to understand the difference between say Jews and Christians? Do you know the role of zoroastrianism is Judaism, and Christianity? Do you ignore the letters of John in preference for Paul? Nothing finite contains he fullness of God.
logicrules
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3/9/2013 1:00:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/8/2013 9:12:58 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 3/7/2013 9:47:29 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/7/2013 9:36:27 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 3/7/2013 8:43:09 AM, logicrules wrote:
Having read posts on this forum for over a year I am struck by the ubiquitous denials of fact to explain some self held belief, and the, almost complete absence of theology. If God is Truth then it follows that an honest atheist is far better than a hypocritical Christian.

Theologies differ on nuances, based upon different religions constructs of Faith. EG Both Roman Catholics and Lutherans have Real Presence, one is transubstantial the other consubstantial. Spirituality is universal, that is without regard to theological foundation its advance is the same.

Lastly, If one could prove there is a God one would have no need for Faith.
logicrules If one could prove there is NO God one would have no need for Faith.

The atheist has "FAITH" there is NO god!
The atheist "BELIEVES" there is NO god!
The atheist CAN'T prove there is no god!

Dogknox

Pithy slogans are used for the ignorant and those who refuse to think. I suggest you distinguish between belief and knowledge and accept basic principles of reason, eg One can not prove a negative, hence the bringer of the affirmative always bears the burden.
logicrules Right you are.. One can not prove a negative Thus saying, "There is NO God" CAN'T BE PROVEN!!! duh!!

All you have is your own faith.. FAITH that there is no God!!
You have your BELIEFS!!
You BELIEVE there is no god!

You CAN'T prove a negative so don't even try to prove there is no god!
FAITH and only FAITH is all you have got!

Dogknox

You can not prove beyond doubt that God is. Should one be able to do so, one would not need Faith. Aristotle established, with a reasonable inference, the unmoved mover, which Aquinas used in his Summa for his apology for God. A reasonable inference is acceptable. Thus if God chooses not to give faith to someone,it is not for us to challenge that wisdom. (see Lumen Gentium)
annanicole
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3/9/2013 1:07:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Don't forget to answer these. They were sorta at the end.

Exactly what is your "theology" - your study of God - based upon - in order of importance? Do you have any sources of God in addition to the Bible? If so, what are they? What do you think you know about God that you did not learn from the Bible? Anything?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
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3/9/2013 1:16:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"You seem to limit. ave you ever taken even a basic theology class so as to understand the difference between say Jews and Christians?"

I never took a theology class for that reason, but I'd assume the differences are available outside of theology classes. As far as "limiting", I do not think so.

Do you know the role of zoroastrianism in Judaism, and Christianity?

As far as I can tell, zoroastrianism has pretty much nothing to do with Christianity. I recall no reference to it within the NT.

Do you ignore the letters of John in preference for Paul?

No, any perception of such is due to the fact that Paul penned so much of the NT, while John wrote only three letters - all very short.

I still do not know exactly where you get your theology, except to say that some of it - alot of it - does not come from the Bible at all. What do you do, study all sorts of ancient mystical religions and if you see a similarity between them and Christianity, you presume that Christianity just borrowed the concepts? Do you even have a source of authority in religion?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
logicrules
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3/9/2013 1:29:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/9/2013 1:07:26 PM, annanicole wrote:
Don't forget to answer these. They were sorta at the end.

Exactly what is your "theology" - your study of God - based upon - in order of importance? Do you have any sources of God in addition to the Bible? If so, what are they? What do you think you know about God that you did not learn from the Bible? Anything?

Well I agree with the Dogma of the Councils of Christendom. You could read the Theologies of the Roman Catholic Church and have it, but I disagree on a few Doctrinal matters. On those I defer to Incarnational theology. I consider Christianity the transignification of Judaism and as such a continuum of God's action among us.

Source of God presumes causation so no. The "bible" is an anthology of sacred texts. I find the term, as it is currently used, meaningless. I use scripture and hold to the traditional Judeo Christian methodology for its understanding. This involves historical, textual and theological criticisms. eg.If literal "I am the lord your God, you shall not have other gods before me." means there are many gods, but our god is best. I think not, based on my knowledge of history and societal developement. You ask for a hierarchy of import.....all Dogma are equal and shall not change, eg Apostles or Nicean Creed. Doctrine is a best understanding but may change,..eg Suicide is a sin.

Scripture alone is a poor teacher. The synoptics differ greatly from John and Acts is part 2 of Luke. There was a time when people thought four guys sat down and wrote the four gospels....didn't happen, this we know.

The first Scriptures date to around 600 bce, we know this from a contextual review of content, and God predates that. When I read a story in scripture I evaluate it based on Truths. I do not think God made the world, and all that is in it, to mess with us. I allow for human error being used by God.