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Argument against divine creation?

Magic8000
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3/7/2013 12:48:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I came up with this argument a while back. I haven't really thought it through, so tell me what you think. Atheists and Theists.

1. God decided to create the universe
2. Something had to cause him to create the universe
3. There's several possibilities, there's an infinite regress of thoughts to get to the decision to act. But then the universe would've never been created.
4. God created the universe on a spontaneous whim. But this would imply he's not omniscient.
5. Or God always had the will to. But then we should observe an infinitively old universe, since God would've created the universe an infinite time ago

Again, haven't really thought it out, so sorry if it sucks.
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philochristos
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3/7/2013 1:39:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 12:48:06 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
1. God decided to create the universe

I think is ambiguous and needs fleshing out. There are at least three different things it could mean, and to make a solid deductive argument, you need to be specific. Here are the three possibilities:

1. After a period of deliberation during which God didn't know what he was going to do, he finally arrived at the decision that he would create the universe.

2. At some particular moment, God had an intention to create the universe, and that intention may have been to create the universe at some later time in the future.

3. God created the universe willfully and intentionally. In other words, the choice and the action were one and the same.

Most theists would not subscribe to #1 because God is essentially all-knowing. #2 and #3 are both possible, but they are distinct. For example, it's possible for me to have my mind made up right now that tomorrow I'll eat a pizza. So there's a sense in which I've decided or chosen in the present to do something in the future. But there's also a sense in which the act itself is a choice. After all, any intentional act is an act of the will, i.e. the volition.

In my own view, the desire or intention is logically and causally prior to the act. It determines the act.

2. Something had to cause him to create the universe

Libertarians would probably disagree with that. Libertarian choices are not caused by any antecedent conditions. They are spontaneous. At best, our choices can be influenced by prior circumstances, but they can't be determined by them.

I'm a compatibilist, meaning that I think all of our intentional acts are determined by our strongest desires, motivations, preferences, inclinations, etc., i.e. our psychological state prior to and up to the moment of choice. I'm reluctant to call our prior psychological states the "causes" of our acts, though. I prefer to think of them as the "sufficient reasons" for our acts. But the result is the same. In either case, the act is determined by the psychological state, and there is a necessary connection between them.

3. There's several possibilities, there's an infinite regress of thoughts to get to the decision to act. But then the universe would've never been created.

I agree with that.

4. God created the universe on a spontaneous whim. But this would imply he's not omniscient.

I think this is a mistake. According to libertarian freedom, all free will acts are spontaneous. But foreknowledge is not inconsistent with libertarian freedom because the knowledge does not cause the acts. Rather, the acts are the basis for the knowledge. So the acts are logically prior to the knowledge even when the knowledge is temporally prior to the acts.

Of course you use the word, "whim," and I guess whether this premise is true depends on what you mean by it. If by "whim," you mean an act of decision that was previously unknown or thought of, then yes, I'd agree with this premise. If there's anything God does on a whim by this definition, then he's not all-knowing.

5. Or God always had the will to. But then we should observe an infinitively old universe, since God would've created the universe an infinite time ago

Given the two definitions of "decide" I explain above, this doesn't seem to follow. It's possible that God had a timeless and eternal desire to create the universe, but that desire was to create the universe at some particular moment.

It is kind of hard to wrap your head around it, though. How does God differ from Bill Craig's hypothetical impersonal cause to the universe? Craig argues that if the cause of the universe was impersonal, then all the necessary and sufficient conditions for the beginning of the universe would've been eternal, and if they were eternal, then the effect would be eternal as well. How is God any different? If his desire is a necessary and sufficient condition for his creating the universe, then if his desire is eternal, then universe should also be eternal. Craig answers that by saying that the cause must have libertarian freedom, and that's why it must be a person.

But then he says that God's timeless state was not temporally prior to the beginning of the universe, but causally prior. So time began simultaneously with God's act of creation. In my own view, though it's hard to wrap one's head around it, the universe began a finite time ago because God acted, and he acted because of his desire, and nothing preceded his desire. The only difference between God's creation of the universe and any normal situation in which our desire to act comes before the action in time is that in God's case there was no delay. However, the length of time doesn't seem to change the fact that they desire and the act are distinct. If you shorten the time to nothing, they would still be distinct. So it doesn't follow that if the desire to create is eternal, then the universe must also be eternal.
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likespeace
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3/7/2013 1:52:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Magic, I agree this is a thought-provoking argument.

4. God created the universe on a spontaneous whim. But this would imply he's not omniscient.
5. Or God always had the will to. But then we should observe an infinitively old universe, since God would've created the universe an infinite time ago

Another possibility is that God's creations have a cyclical nature. God desires to always have life to love and observe, and yet the very nature of life is to eventually perish. Each time a universe passes away, He creates another one.

This God could be as a dog owner who enjoys many canine companions over the years, or He could be a sad watchman forever watching identical events repeat themselves. Is he filled up with joy observing us, or does He long to feel as alive as we do, and only afraid of the consequences of being alive?
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/7/2013 3:14:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 12:48:06 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
I came up with this argument a while back. I haven't really thought it through, so tell me what you think. Atheists and Theists.

1. God decided to create the universe
2. Something had to cause him to create the universe
3. There's several possibilities, there's an infinite regress of thoughts to get to the decision to act. But then the universe would've never been created.
4. God created the universe on a spontaneous whim. But this would imply he's not omniscient.
5. Or God always had the will to. But then we should observe an infinitively old universe, since God would've created the universe an infinite time ago

Again, haven't really thought it out, so sorry if it sucks.

God always had the will to create the universe (assuming God exists), but that doesn't mean he always had to have had the trigger pulled. Thus, even if God always had the will, that doesn't mean we should necessarily observe an infinitely old universe.
AlbinoBunny
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3/10/2013 9:16:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Interesting point.

When do theists think that their god(s) created reality? If their god(s) is/are timeless/eternal, then does that mean that an "infinite" duration of time has passed before this reality was created?

Infinity hurts people's heads, mine especially.
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Pennington
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3/10/2013 9:28:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/10/2013 9:16:30 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
Interesting point.

When do theists think that their god(s) created reality? If their god(s) is/are timeless/eternal, then does that mean that an "infinite" duration of time has passed before this reality was created?

Infinity hurts people's heads, mine especially.:

No one knows how long our representation of time as we see it has passed before this reality started. No one can completely rule out that the Bible is describing billions of years. What we can completely disagree on is with the description of creation and evolutions tale. The Bible distintly describes man being given a soul by God and a 6 day creation. The only long count point you have is that Genesis 1:2 is describing judgement on a previous earth. The words of formless and void are used in a judgement form in our passages with the same wording.
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Magic8000
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3/14/2013 4:10:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 3:14:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/7/2013 12:48:06 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
I came up with this argument a while back. I haven't really thought it through, so tell me what you think. Atheists and Theists.

1. God decided to create the universe
2. Something had to cause him to create the universe
3. There's several possibilities, there's an infinite regress of thoughts to get to the decision to act. But then the universe would've never been created.
4. God created the universe on a spontaneous whim. But this would imply he's not omniscient.
5. Or God always had the will to. But then we should observe an infinitively old universe, since God would've created the universe an infinite time ago

Again, haven't really thought it out, so sorry if it sucks.

God always had the will to create the universe (assuming God exists), but that doesn't mean he always had to have had the trigger pulled. Thus, even if God always had the will, that doesn't mean we should necessarily observe an infinitely old universe.

All god needs is the will to create. If I have the will to do something, that means I'm going to do it ASAP
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Rational_Thinker9119
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3/14/2013 4:23:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/14/2013 4:10:04 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 3/7/2013 3:14:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/7/2013 12:48:06 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
I came up with this argument a while back. I haven't really thought it through, so tell me what you think. Atheists and Theists.

1. God decided to create the universe
2. Something had to cause him to create the universe
3. There's several possibilities, there's an infinite regress of thoughts to get to the decision to act. But then the universe would've never been created.
4. God created the universe on a spontaneous whim. But this would imply he's not omniscient.
5. Or God always had the will to. But then we should observe an infinitively old universe, since God would've created the universe an infinite time ago

Again, haven't really thought it out, so sorry if it sucks.

God always had the will to create the universe (assuming God exists), but that doesn't mean he always had to have had the trigger pulled. Thus, even if God always had the will, that doesn't mean we should necessarily observe an infinitely old universe.

All god needs is the will to create. If I have the will to do something, that means I'm going to do it ASAP

"Willing" isn't the same thing as "doing", thus number "5" of your argument fails. I could will to get some milk, but not get it until a minute or two, when I'm done typing this message. Actually that's exactly what I'm going to do. God could have held the will to create the universe in a timeless state, then chose to create a finite universe with linear time. There is no reason why God couldn't have the will for something without that something actually being the case, anymore than there is no reason why I cannot will to have milk, without milk in my hand being the case, like right now (I want milk, but have none, due to my own choice).
Radar
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3/14/2013 4:58:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 12:48:06 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
I came up with this argument a while back. I haven't really thought it through, so tell me what you think. Atheists and Theists.

1. God decided to create the universe
2. Something had to cause him to create the universe
3. There's several possibilities, there's an infinite regress of thoughts to get to the decision to act. But then the universe would've never been created.
4. God created the universe on a spontaneous whim. But this would imply he's not omniscient.
5. Or God always had the will to. But then we should observe an infinitively old universe, since God would've created the universe an infinite time ago

Again, haven't really thought it out, so sorry if it sucks.

1: If God is both eternal and changeless, then God didn't jut wake up one morning and decide to create the universe. Rather, creatorship is the aggregate of his acting nature.

2: If creatorship is the aggregate of God's acting nature, then premise 2 is false and only premise 5 is of any consequence, but premise 5 is in conflict with modern cosmology and the possibility of multiple universes.
Magic8000
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3/15/2013 9:25:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/14/2013 4:23:27 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/14/2013 4:10:04 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 3/7/2013 3:14:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/7/2013 12:48:06 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
I came up with this argument a while back. I haven't really thought it through, so tell me what you think. Atheists and Theists.

1. God decided to create the universe
2. Something had to cause him to create the universe
3. There's several possibilities, there's an infinite regress of thoughts to get to the decision to act. But then the universe would've never been created.
4. God created the universe on a spontaneous whim. But this would imply he's not omniscient.
5. Or God always had the will to. But then we should observe an infinitively old universe, since God would've created the universe an infinite time ago

Again, haven't really thought it out, so sorry if it sucks.

God always had the will to create the universe (assuming God exists), but that doesn't mean he always had to have had the trigger pulled. Thus, even if God always had the will, that doesn't mean we should necessarily observe an infinitely old universe.

All god needs is the will to create. If I have the will to do something, that means I'm going to do it ASAP

"Willing" isn't the same thing as "doing", thus number "5" of your argument fails. I could will to get some milk, but not get it until a minute or two, when I'm done typing this message. Actually that's exactly what I'm going to do. God could have held the will to create the universe in a timeless state, then chose to create a finite universe with linear time. There is no reason why God couldn't have the will for something without that something actually being the case, anymore than there is no reason why I cannot will to have milk, without milk in my hand being the case, like right now (I want milk, but have none, due to my own choice).

Well Goddamn. It could be argued that God had no distractions or limitations.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

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johnlubba
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3/17/2013 2:44:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/15/2013 9:25:39 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 3/14/2013 4:23:27 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/14/2013 4:10:04 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 3/7/2013 3:14:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/7/2013 12:48:06 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
I came up with this argument a while back. I haven't really thought it through, so tell me what you think. Atheists and Theists.

1. God decided to create the universe
2. Something had to cause him to create the universe
3. There's several possibilities, there's an infinite regress of thoughts to get to the decision to act. But then the universe would've never been created.
4. God created the universe on a spontaneous whim. But this would imply he's not omniscient.
5. Or God always had the will to. But then we should observe an infinitively old universe, since God would've created the universe an infinite time ago

Again, haven't really thought it out, so sorry if it sucks.

God always had the will to create the universe (assuming God exists), but that doesn't mean he always had to have had the trigger pulled. Thus, even if God always had the will, that doesn't mean we should necessarily observe an infinitely old universe.

All god needs is the will to create. If I have the will to do something, that means I'm going to do it ASAP

"Willing" isn't the same thing as "doing", thus number "5" of your argument fails. I could will to get some milk, but not get it until a minute or two, when I'm done typing this message. Actually that's exactly what I'm going to do. God could have held the will to create the universe in a timeless state, then chose to create a finite universe with linear time. There is no reason why God couldn't have the will for something without that something actually being the case, anymore than there is no reason why I cannot will to have milk, without milk in my hand being the case, like right now (I want milk, but have none, due to my own choice).

Well Goddamn. It could be argued that God had no distractions or limitations.

God is not so cheap that he can be bought in the market place, You can not know the mind of God just like that.
muzebreak
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3/17/2013 2:51:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 2:44:42 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 3/15/2013 9:25:39 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 3/14/2013 4:23:27 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/14/2013 4:10:04 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 3/7/2013 3:14:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/7/2013 12:48:06 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
I came up with this argument a while back. I haven't really thought it through, so tell me what you think. Atheists and Theists.

1. God decided to create the universe
2. Something had to cause him to create the universe
3. There's several possibilities, there's an infinite regress of thoughts to get to the decision to act. But then the universe would've never been created.
4. God created the universe on a spontaneous whim. But this would imply he's not omniscient.
5. Or God always had the will to. But then we should observe an infinitively old universe, since God would've created the universe an infinite time ago

Again, haven't really thought it out, so sorry if it sucks.

God always had the will to create the universe (assuming God exists), but that doesn't mean he always had to have had the trigger pulled. Thus, even if God always had the will, that doesn't mean we should necessarily observe an infinitely old universe.

All god needs is the will to create. If I have the will to do something, that means I'm going to do it ASAP

"Willing" isn't the same thing as "doing", thus number "5" of your argument fails. I could will to get some milk, but not get it until a minute or two, when I'm done typing this message. Actually that's exactly what I'm going to do. God could have held the will to create the universe in a timeless state, then chose to create a finite universe with linear time. There is no reason why God couldn't have the will for something without that something actually being the case, anymore than there is no reason why I cannot will to have milk, without milk in my hand being the case, like right now (I want milk, but have none, due to my own choice).

Well Goddamn. It could be argued that God had no distractions or limitations.


God is not so cheap that he can be bought in the market place, You can not know the mind of God just like that.

Prove it.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Smithereens
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3/17/2013 2:55:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 12:48:06 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
I came up with this argument a while back. I haven't really thought it through, so tell me what you think. Atheists and Theists.

1. God decided to create the universe
2. Something had to cause him to create the universe
3. There's several possibilities, there's an infinite regress of thoughts to get to the decision to act. But then the universe would've never been created.
4. God created the universe on a spontaneous whim. But this would imply he's not omniscient.
5. Or God always had the will to. But then we should observe an infinitively old universe, since God would've created the universe an infinite time ago

Again, haven't really thought it out, so sorry if it sucks.

This is not new, and its easily refuted.
Firstly, God is the first cause, nothing comes before Him, there is no need for anything to come before him either, time did not exist before the universe, so it is not the Case the God suddenly made the universe on a whim, since that implies a time frame. Furthermore, since there was no time before the universe, the word 'before,' when talking about God is invalid. There was no 'before' God.
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Pwner
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3/17/2013 4:27:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Like some of the others have suggested, God would have had to have willed to create the universe at a point from eternity past. This way nothing caused him to create, his decision wasn't random, and the universe isn't infinitely old.

What bothers me about this is the bruteness it requires. Why did God will this from eternity? Because he did, end of. The only alternative is to say he willed to create out of necessity, but that'd entail that the universe isn't contingent, a thesis not only demonstrably false on religiously neutral grounds, but on grounds of commonly employed theistic arguments such as those from PSR's or from fine-tuning.
johnlubba
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3/17/2013 5:43:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 2:55:09 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 3/7/2013 12:48:06 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
I came up with this argument a while back. I haven't really thought it through, so tell me what you think. Atheists and Theists.

1. God decided to create the universe
2. Something had to cause him to create the universe
3. There's several possibilities, there's an infinite regress of thoughts to get to the decision to act. But then the universe would've never been created.
4. God created the universe on a spontaneous whim. But this would imply he's not omniscient.
5. Or God always had the will to. But then we should observe an infinitively old universe, since God would've created the universe an infinite time ago

Again, haven't really thought it out, so sorry if it sucks.

This is not new, and its easily refuted.
Firstly, God is the first cause, nothing comes before Him, there is no need for anything to come before him either, time did not exist before the universe, so it is not the Case the God suddenly made the universe on a whim, since that implies a time frame. Furthermore, since there was no time before the universe, the word 'before,' when talking about God is invalid. There was no 'before' God.

Pow....
cybertron1998
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3/18/2013 5:15:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
the universe being infinite does not mean age it means distance we have very well discovered that there is a centerpoint of the universe so that definitely means it had a start. now a being probably created a universe but not ours. the multiverse theory. I am sure things like wormholes and black holes can create universes
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
Magic8000
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4/7/2013 9:44:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 2:55:09 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 3/7/2013 12:48:06 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
I came up with this argument a while back. I haven't really thought it through, so tell me what you think. Atheists and Theists.

1. God decided to create the universe
2. Something had to cause him to create the universe
3. There's several possibilities, there's an infinite regress of thoughts to get to the decision to act. But then the universe would've never been created.
4. God created the universe on a spontaneous whim. But this would imply he's not omniscient.
5. Or God always had the will to. But then we should observe an infinitively old universe, since God would've created the universe an infinite time ago

Again, haven't really thought it out, so sorry if it sucks.

This is not new, and its easily refuted.
Firstly, God is the first cause, nothing comes before Him, there is no need for anything to come before him either, time did not exist before the universe, so it is not the Case the God suddenly made the universe on a whim, since that implies a time frame. Furthermore, since there was no time before the universe, the word 'before,' when talking about God is invalid. There was no 'before' God.

You're misunderstanding this argument. I never used the word before. I'm not saying God had a cause, I'm saying God had a will to create it. I'm asking where the will came from. Not that something caused God in a "who created God" sense.
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Joey_G
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4/7/2013 10:28:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 12:48:06 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
I came up with this argument a while back. I haven't really thought it through, so tell me what you think. Atheists and Theists.

1. God decided to create the universe
2. Something had to cause him to create the universe
3. There's several possibilities, there's an infinite regress of thoughts to get to the decision to act. But then the universe would've never been created.
4. God created the universe on a spontaneous whim. But this would imply he's not omniscient.
5. Or God always had the will to. But then we should observe an infinitively old universe, since God would've created the universe an infinite time ago

Again, haven't really thought it out, so sorry if it sucks.

This only makes sense when we think of time and space within our own understanding and comprehension. I think it is too hard, or near on impossible to be able to think that God acts outside the scope of time itself.
makhdoom5
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4/7/2013 11:47:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
ALLAH created the universe for some purpose.
he said.
before creating it is throne was only on water.
its in Quran.
and there are many purposes for creating it mention in Quran.
but the most important is for human.
than,
he says in Quran.
Who hath created life and death that He may try you which of you is best in conduct; and He is the Mighty, the Forgiving,
there are many.
AlbinoBunny
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4/8/2013 10:46:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/7/2013 1:39:28 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 3/7/2013 12:48:06 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
1. God decided to create the universe

I think is ambiguous and needs fleshing out. There are at least three different things it could mean, and to make a solid deductive argument, you need to be specific. Here are the three possibilities:

1. After a period of deliberation during which God didn't know what he was going to do, he finally arrived at the decision that he would create the universe.

2. At some particular moment, God had an intention to create the universe, and that intention may have been to create the universe at some later time in the future.

3. God created the universe willfully and intentionally. In other words, the choice and the action were one and the same.

All-knowing, gets rid of number 1.

Timeless gets rid of number 2.

Number 3 means that he decided to create the univers "wilfully and intentionally"? These are the only three choices?

Does God actually make choices? Doesn't he already know the choices?
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