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Why do people use "First cause" arguments?

AlbinoBunny
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3/11/2013 8:58:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
They don't even imply God's existence? ...
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BigRat
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3/11/2013 9:33:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The FCA shows the logical necessity of the existence of a entity that is timeless, all powerful, and intelligent.
Pwner
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3/11/2013 9:34:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 8:58:43 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
They don't even imply God's existence? ...

God's existence is more likely given that there's a first cause than given that there's not.
AlbinoBunny
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3/11/2013 10:52:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 9:33:40 AM, BigRat wrote:
The FCA shows the logical necessity of the existence of a entity that is timeless, all powerful, and intelligent.

Timeless maybe.

Why "all" powerful?

I disagree with "intelligent".
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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stubs
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3/11/2013 2:41:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 10:52:40 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 9:33:40 AM, BigRat wrote:
The FCA shows the logical necessity of the existence of a entity that is timeless, all powerful, and intelligent.


Timeless maybe.

Why "all" powerful?

Well this first cause would have had to, in some way, cause into being everything that exists so maybe "all" would not be the word but it would certainly be powerful beyond imagination.

I disagree with "intelligent".
AlbinoBunny
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3/11/2013 2:46:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 2:41:44 PM, stubs wrote:
At 3/11/2013 10:52:40 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:

Why "all" powerful?

Well this first cause would have had to, in some way, cause into being everything that exists so maybe "all" would not be the word but it would certainly be powerful beyond imagination.

And what kind of power are we describing? Power as in energy per second? As in total energy? "Powerful" is kind of vague.
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atheismo
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3/11/2013 2:57:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
because people think that if there is a first cause, god must be the first cause. But there is no reason to think that the cause of the univierse must be god.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - Carl Sagan
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/11/2013 3:39:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 9:33:40 AM, BigRat wrote:
The FCA shows the logical necessity of the existence of a entity that is timeless, all powerful, and intelligent.

If we assume a cause of the universe, then a timeless cause isn't that unreasonable. However, what is there to justify this omnipotence and intelligence?
AlbinoBunny
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3/11/2013 3:44:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 3:39:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 9:33:40 AM, BigRat wrote:
The FCA shows the logical necessity of the existence of a entity that is timeless, all powerful, and intelligent.

If we assume a cause of the universe, then a timeless cause isn't that unreasonable. However, what is there to justify this omnipotence and intelligence?

And timeless is only if we assume there isn't an infinite regress of time.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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Rational_Thinker9119
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3/11/2013 3:54:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 3:44:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:39:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 9:33:40 AM, BigRat wrote:
The FCA shows the logical necessity of the existence of a entity that is timeless, all powerful, and intelligent.

If we assume a cause of the universe, then a timeless cause isn't that unreasonable. However, what is there to justify this omnipotence and intelligence?

And timeless is only if we assume there isn't an infinite regress of time.

If we assume a cause of time, then the cause must not be dependent on time. I agree with the theist there. However, I would just like to know what justifies the omnipotence and intelligent aspects.
AlbinoBunny
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3/11/2013 3:56:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 3:54:33 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:44:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:39:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 9:33:40 AM, BigRat wrote:
The FCA shows the logical necessity of the existence of a entity that is timeless, all powerful, and intelligent.

If we assume a cause of the universe, then a timeless cause isn't that unreasonable. However, what is there to justify this omnipotence and intelligence?

And timeless is only if we assume there isn't an infinite regress of time.

If we assume a cause of time, then the cause must not be dependent on time. I agree with the theist there. However, I would just like to know what justifies the omnipotence and intelligent aspects.

So do I. But if there's an infinite regress of time, there isn't a "cause" of time.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
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Rational_Thinker9119
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3/11/2013 3:58:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 3:56:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:54:33 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:44:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:39:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 9:33:40 AM, BigRat wrote:
The FCA shows the logical necessity of the existence of a entity that is timeless, all powerful, and intelligent.

If we assume a cause of the universe, then a timeless cause isn't that unreasonable. However, what is there to justify this omnipotence and intelligence?

And timeless is only if we assume there isn't an infinite regress of time.

If we assume a cause of time, then the cause must not be dependent on time. I agree with the theist there. However, I would just like to know what justifies the omnipotence and intelligent aspects.

So do I. But if there's an infinite regress of time, there isn't a "cause" of time.

An infinite regress of linear time is not exactly a the most logical notion. Just saying...
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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3/11/2013 4:07:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 3:58:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:56:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:54:33 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:44:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:39:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 9:33:40 AM, BigRat wrote:
The FCA shows the logical necessity of the existence of a entity that is timeless, all powerful, and intelligent.

If we assume a cause of the universe, then a timeless cause isn't that unreasonable. However, what is there to justify this omnipotence and intelligence?

And timeless is only if we assume there isn't an infinite regress of time.

If we assume a cause of time, then the cause must not be dependent on time. I agree with the theist there. However, I would just like to know what justifies the omnipotence and intelligent aspects.

So do I. But if there's an infinite regress of time, there isn't a "cause" of time.

An infinite regress of linear time is not exactly a the most logical notion. Just saying...

Neither is a timeless entity.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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3/11/2013 4:24:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 2:46:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 2:41:44 PM, stubs wrote:
At 3/11/2013 10:52:40 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:

Why "all" powerful?

Well this first cause would have had to, in some way, cause into being everything that exists so maybe "all" would not be the word but it would certainly be powerful beyond imagination.

And what kind of power are we describing? Power as in energy per second? As in total energy? "Powerful" is kind of vague.

Power that would knock you on your keister well before you reached It lol. An incredible amount of energy radiating from God Himself with power to create with merely the sound of His voice causing matter to move and particles to come together, but obviously theres gonna be no way to measure such power though.
AlbinoBunny
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3/11/2013 4:55:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 4:24:00 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 2:46:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 2:41:44 PM, stubs wrote:
At 3/11/2013 10:52:40 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:

Why "all" powerful?

Well this first cause would have had to, in some way, cause into being everything that exists so maybe "all" would not be the word but it would certainly be powerful beyond imagination.

And what kind of power are we describing? Power as in energy per second? As in total energy? "Powerful" is kind of vague.

Power that would knock you on your keister well before you reached It lol. An incredible amount of energy radiating from God Himself with power to create with merely the sound of His voice causing matter to move and particles to come together, but obviously theres gonna be no way to measure such power though.

If God is timeless how would he use this power?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
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Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/11/2013 4:59:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 4:07:02 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:58:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:56:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:54:33 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:44:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:39:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 9:33:40 AM, BigRat wrote:
The FCA shows the logical necessity of the existence of a entity that is timeless, all powerful, and intelligent.

If we assume a cause of the universe, then a timeless cause isn't that unreasonable. However, what is there to justify this omnipotence and intelligence?

And timeless is only if we assume there isn't an infinite regress of time.

If we assume a cause of time, then the cause must not be dependent on time. I agree with the theist there. However, I would just like to know what justifies the omnipotence and intelligent aspects.

So do I. But if there's an infinite regress of time, there isn't a "cause" of time.

An infinite regress of linear time is not exactly a the most logical notion. Just saying...

Neither is a timeless entity.

Why is a timeless entity illogical?
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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3/11/2013 5:09:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 4:59:28 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 4:07:02 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:58:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:56:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:54:33 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:44:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:39:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 9:33:40 AM, BigRat wrote:
The FCA shows the logical necessity of the existence of a entity that is timeless, all powerful, and intelligent.

If we assume a cause of the universe, then a timeless cause isn't that unreasonable. However, what is there to justify this omnipotence and intelligence?

And timeless is only if we assume there isn't an infinite regress of time.

If we assume a cause of time, then the cause must not be dependent on time. I agree with the theist there. However, I would just like to know what justifies the omnipotence and intelligent aspects.

So do I. But if there's an infinite regress of time, there isn't a "cause" of time.

An infinite regress of linear time is not exactly a the most logical notion. Just saying...

Neither is a timeless entity.

Why is a timeless entity illogical?

Actual infinities may not "exist", but neither do "timeless entities". If you can conceive a way in which a timeless entity can function, then that might make it seem a bit more logical.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
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Rational_Thinker9119
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3/11/2013 5:24:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 5:09:58 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 4:59:28 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 4:07:02 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:58:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:56:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:54:33 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:44:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:39:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 9:33:40 AM, BigRat wrote:
The FCA shows the logical necessity of the existence of a entity that is timeless, all powerful, and intelligent.

If we assume a cause of the universe, then a timeless cause isn't that unreasonable. However, what is there to justify this omnipotence and intelligence?

And timeless is only if we assume there isn't an infinite regress of time.

If we assume a cause of time, then the cause must not be dependent on time. I agree with the theist there. However, I would just like to know what justifies the omnipotence and intelligent aspects.

So do I. But if there's an infinite regress of time, there isn't a "cause" of time.

An infinite regress of linear time is not exactly a the most logical notion. Just saying...

Neither is a timeless entity.

Why is a timeless entity illogical?

Actual infinities may not "exist", but neither do "timeless entities". If you can conceive a way in which a timeless entity can function, then that might make it seem a bit more logical.

Maybe actions only take time within nature. You haven't seemed to present any grounds for the assumption that actions without time outside of nature, could not take place.
AlbinoBunny
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3/11/2013 5:48:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 5:24:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 5:09:58 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 4:59:28 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 4:07:02 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:58:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:56:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:54:33 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:44:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:39:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 9:33:40 AM, BigRat wrote:
The FCA shows the logical necessity of the existence of a entity that is timeless, all powerful, and intelligent.

If we assume a cause of the universe, then a timeless cause isn't that unreasonable. However, what is there to justify this omnipotence and intelligence?

And timeless is only if we assume there isn't an infinite regress of time.

If we assume a cause of time, then the cause must not be dependent on time. I agree with the theist there. However, I would just like to know what justifies the omnipotence and intelligent aspects.

So do I. But if there's an infinite regress of time, there isn't a "cause" of time.

An infinite regress of linear time is not exactly a the most logical notion. Just saying...

Neither is a timeless entity.

Why is a timeless entity illogical?

Actual infinities may not "exist", but neither do "timeless entities". If you can conceive a way in which a timeless entity can function, then that might make it seem a bit more logical.

Maybe actions only take time within nature. You haven't seemed to present any grounds for the assumption that actions without time outside of nature, could not take place.

Describe actions that are without time and outside of nature to me. If you can do that, at least explain what it even means and I'll consider trying to show how it can't take place.

If you can't do that, then the very least you could do is explain what, "without time" or "outside nature" actually mean. Does it mean, "let's just pretend like something can act in a way we can't even imagine for funs", or does it have another meaning?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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AlbinoBunny
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3/11/2013 5:52:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Since we're talking about "outside of nature", could you explain to me why it is illogical for an infinite regress of time to exist "outside of nature"?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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Sidewalker
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3/11/2013 6:51:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 3:44:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:39:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 9:33:40 AM, BigRat wrote:
The FCA shows the logical necessity of the existence of a entity that is timeless, all powerful, and intelligent.

If we assume a cause of the universe, then a timeless cause isn't that unreasonable. However, what is there to justify this omnipotence and intelligence?

And timeless is only if we assume there isn't an infinite regress of time.

That's a reasonable assumption since an infinite regress of time is logically impossible. You can't traverse an infinite, if there were an infinite regress of time then time could never have reached the present.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
matt.mcguire88
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3/11/2013 6:56:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 4:55:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 4:24:00 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 2:46:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 2:41:44 PM, stubs wrote:
At 3/11/2013 10:52:40 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:

Why "all" powerful?

Well this first cause would have had to, in some way, cause into being everything that exists so maybe "all" would not be the word but it would certainly be powerful beyond imagination.

And what kind of power are we describing? Power as in energy per second? As in total energy? "Powerful" is kind of vague.

Power that would knock you on your keister well before you reached It lol. An incredible amount of energy radiating from God Himself with power to create with merely the sound of His voice causing matter to move and particles to come together, but obviously theres gonna be no way to measure such power though.

If God is timeless how would he use this power?

I'm not quite sure what you mean here?
AlbinoBunny
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3/11/2013 7:22:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 6:51:54 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:44:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:39:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 9:33:40 AM, BigRat wrote:
The FCA shows the logical necessity of the existence of a entity that is timeless, all powerful, and intelligent.

If we assume a cause of the universe, then a timeless cause isn't that unreasonable. However, what is there to justify this omnipotence and intelligence?

And timeless is only if we assume there isn't an infinite regress of time.

That's a reasonable assumption since an infinite regress of time is logically impossible. You can't traverse an infinite, if there were an infinite regress of time then time could never have reached the present.

So if there are points in space that are infinitely small you can never cover a distance?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
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AlbinoBunny
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3/11/2013 7:23:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 6:56:33 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 4:55:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 4:24:00 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 2:46:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 2:41:44 PM, stubs wrote:
At 3/11/2013 10:52:40 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:

Why "all" powerful?

Well this first cause would have had to, in some way, cause into being everything that exists so maybe "all" would not be the word but it would certainly be powerful beyond imagination.

And what kind of power are we describing? Power as in energy per second? As in total energy? "Powerful" is kind of vague.

Power that would knock you on your keister well before you reached It lol. An incredible amount of energy radiating from God Himself with power to create with merely the sound of His voice causing matter to move and particles to come together, but obviously theres gonna be no way to measure such power though.

If God is timeless how would he use this power?

I'm not quite sure what you mean here?

How can you use power if there isn't time?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
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May the best man win!
matt.mcguire88
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3/11/2013 7:29:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 7:23:23 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 6:56:33 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 4:55:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 4:24:00 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 2:46:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 2:41:44 PM, stubs wrote:
At 3/11/2013 10:52:40 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:

Why "all" powerful?

Well this first cause would have had to, in some way, cause into being everything that exists so maybe "all" would not be the word but it would certainly be powerful beyond imagination.

And what kind of power are we describing? Power as in energy per second? As in total energy? "Powerful" is kind of vague.

Power that would knock you on your keister well before you reached It lol. An incredible amount of energy radiating from God Himself with power to create with merely the sound of His voice causing matter to move and particles to come together, but obviously theres gonna be no way to measure such power though.

If God is timeless how would he use this power?

I'm not quite sure what you mean here?

How can you use power if there isn't time?

lol, much different. Give me an example
Sidewalker
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3/11/2013 7:33:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 5:09:58 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 4:59:28 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 4:07:02 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:58:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:56:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:54:33 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:44:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 3:39:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 9:33:40 AM, BigRat wrote:
The FCA shows the logical necessity of the existence of a entity that is timeless, all powerful, and intelligent.

If we assume a cause of the universe, then a timeless cause isn't that unreasonable. However, what is there to justify this omnipotence and intelligence?

And timeless is only if we assume there isn't an infinite regress of time.

If we assume a cause of time, then the cause must not be dependent on time. I agree with the theist there. However, I would just like to know what justifies the omnipotence and intelligent aspects.

So do I. But if there's an infinite regress of time, there isn't a "cause" of time.

An infinite regress of linear time is not exactly a the most logical notion. Just saying...

Neither is a timeless entity.

Why is a timeless entity illogical?

Actual infinities may not "exist", but neither do "timeless entities". If you can conceive a way in which a timeless entity can function, then that might make it seem a bit more logical.

You are shifting the burden of proof here. You are the one that made the assertion that a timeless entity is illogical, that means the burden of proof is on you.

Current physical theory says that temporally, the Planck scale, which is 10 to the minus 43 seconds, is the smallest unit of time that has any physical meaning. The implication is that below the Planck scale, at the most fundamental level of physical reality, time does not exist. Big Bang theory says time emerged above the Planck scale, but if that is the case then the realm from which it emerged is timeless. Time itself is not observable, in physics it just describes how variables are related to one another. The question becomes, is time a fundamental property of reality or just a macroscopic effect" If it emerges then the fundamental realm from which it emerges is timeless.

One of the few things that theoretical physicists who are working on unified theories agree on, is that to be successful, the hoped for theory will need to quantize time and space. If time and space are quantized, then they will necessarily exist in a timeless and dimensionless realm.

Your assertion is not philosophically or scientifically valid, and shifting the burden of proof onto others does not validate your assertion, how about you support your claim.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
AlbinoBunny
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3/11/2013 7:40:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 7:29:51 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 7:23:23 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 6:56:33 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 4:55:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 4:24:00 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 2:46:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 2:41:44 PM, stubs wrote:
At 3/11/2013 10:52:40 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:

Why "all" powerful?

Well this first cause would have had to, in some way, cause into being everything that exists so maybe "all" would not be the word but it would certainly be powerful beyond imagination.

And what kind of power are we describing? Power as in energy per second? As in total energy? "Powerful" is kind of vague.

Power that would knock you on your keister well before you reached It lol. An incredible amount of energy radiating from God Himself with power to create with merely the sound of His voice causing matter to move and particles to come together, but obviously theres gonna be no way to measure such power though.

If God is timeless how would he use this power?

I'm not quite sure what you mean here?

How can you use power if there isn't time?

lol, much different. Give me an example

If I go to punch a car off the road it doesn't matter how powerful I am if no time is passing.
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matt.mcguire88
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3/11/2013 7:49:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 7:40:45 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 7:29:51 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 7:23:23 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 6:56:33 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 4:55:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 4:24:00 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 2:46:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 2:41:44 PM, stubs wrote:
At 3/11/2013 10:52:40 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:

Why "all" powerful?

Well this first cause would have had to, in some way, cause into being everything that exists so maybe "all" would not be the word but it would certainly be powerful beyond imagination.

And what kind of power are we describing? Power as in energy per second? As in total energy? "Powerful" is kind of vague.

Power that would knock you on your keister well before you reached It lol. An incredible amount of energy radiating from God Himself with power to create with merely the sound of His voice causing matter to move and particles to come together, but obviously theres gonna be no way to measure such power though.

If God is timeless how would he use this power?

I'm not quite sure what you mean here?

How can you use power if there isn't time?

lol, much different. Give me an example

If I go to punch a car off the road it doesn't matter how powerful I am if no time is passing.

Sorry I'm a bit tired. Are you referring to God intervening in a physical world, or are you saying that God has no power in a "timeless" existence?
AlbinoBunny
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3/11/2013 7:49:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 7:33:17 PM, Sidewalker wrote:

You are shifting the burden of proof here. You are the one that made the assertion that a timeless entity is illogical, that means the burden of proof is on you.

Current physical theory says that temporally, the Planck scale, which is 10 to the minus 43 seconds, is the smallest unit of time that has any physical meaning. The implication is that below the Planck scale, at the most fundamental level of physical reality, time does not exist. Big Bang theory says time emerged above the Planck scale, but if that is the case then the realm from which it emerged is timeless. Time itself is not observable, in physics it just describes how variables are related to one another. The question becomes, is time a fundamental property of reality or just a macroscopic effect" If it emerges then the fundamental realm from which it emerges is timeless.

One of the few things that theoretical physicists who are working on unified theories agree on, is that to be successful, the hoped for theory will need to quantize time and space. If time and space are quantized, then they will necessarily exist in a timeless and dimensionless realm.

Your assertion is not philosophically or scientifically valid, and shifting the burden of proof onto others does not validate your assertion, how about you support your claim.

Lol, sorry. I'm not actually saying that I fulfil my burden of proof, or that you have it. If I actually thought I knew what I was talking about I'd debate someone about it. Yes, I have heard of Plank scales. Isn't that where when certain conditions are past, our current laws of physics stop working / making sense? I'm just trying to get some clarification of "timeless".

"In a sense, the marking of time is irrelevant to God because He transcends it. Peter, in 2 Peter 3:8, cautioned his readers not to let this one critical fact escape their notice"that God"s perspective on time is far different from mankind"s (Psalm 102:12, 24-27). The Lord does not count time as we do. He is above and outside of the sphere of time. God sees all of eternity"s past and eternity"s future. The time that passes on earth is of no consequence from God"s timeless perspective. A second is no different from an eon; a billion years pass like seconds to the eternal God."

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org...
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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AlbinoBunny
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3/11/2013 7:52:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/11/2013 7:49:06 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 7:40:45 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 7:29:51 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 7:23:23 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 6:56:33 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 4:55:39 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 4:24:00 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/11/2013 2:46:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/11/2013 2:41:44 PM, stubs wrote:
At 3/11/2013 10:52:40 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:

Why "all" powerful?

Well this first cause would have had to, in some way, cause into being everything that exists so maybe "all" would not be the word but it would certainly be powerful beyond imagination.

And what kind of power are we describing? Power as in energy per second? As in total energy? "Powerful" is kind of vague.

Power that would knock you on your keister well before you reached It lol. An incredible amount of energy radiating from God Himself with power to create with merely the sound of His voice causing matter to move and particles to come together, but obviously theres gonna be no way to measure such power though.

If God is timeless how would he use this power?

I'm not quite sure what you mean here?

How can you use power if there isn't time?

lol, much different. Give me an example

If I go to punch a car off the road it doesn't matter how powerful I am if no time is passing.

Sorry I'm a bit tired. Are you referring to God intervening in a physical world, or are you saying that God has no power in a "timeless" existence?

I think it's more a problem at my end, trying to understand exactly what "timeless" means.

I am interested in the sort of power "God" has though.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!