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Question for believers in an omniscient being

Slifer
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3/12/2013 1:15:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If someone has to choose between to things in the future, and God knows what that person is going to choose, does that person have a choice?
-Slifer
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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3/12/2013 1:17:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/12/2013 1:15:52 PM, Slifer wrote:
If someone has to choose between to things in the future, and God knows what that person is going to choose, does that person have a choice?

Yes.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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3/12/2013 1:21:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/12/2013 1:15:52 PM, Slifer wrote:
If someone has to choose between to things in the future, and God knows what that person is going to choose, does that person have a choice?

Umm...There wouldn't be two choices if you could not decide that choice.
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philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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3/12/2013 1:34:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/12/2013 1:15:52 PM, Slifer wrote:
If someone has to choose between to things in the future, and God knows what that person is going to choose, does that person have a choice?

Yes. See my blog. http://philochristos.blogspot.com...
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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3/12/2013 2:25:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/12/2013 1:15:52 PM, Slifer wrote:
If someone has to choose between to things in the future, and God knows what that person is going to choose, does that person have a choice?

I don't see how not. How does God knowing how a person would freely choose somehow determine them? Isn't it still true that they could have chosen other?
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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3/12/2013 2:27:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/12/2013 2:25:17 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 3/12/2013 1:15:52 PM, Slifer wrote:
If someone has to choose between to things in the future, and God knows what that person is going to choose, does that person have a choice?

I don't see how not. How does God knowing how a person would freely choose somehow determine them? Isn't it still true that they could have chosen other?

I think the point of the question is that it's NOT true that they could have chosen the other; if they were going to choose B instead of A, God would have known about THAT choice instead; by knowing that the person is going to choose A, the question is, can the person (who cannot choose anything else, because God already knows he will choose A) be really be said to have made the choice.
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medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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3/12/2013 5:57:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't see why this is such a hard question. Yes, you could have chosen either A or B. It has nothing to do with directing the choice, just knowing which choice you'll make. If you chose B, it doesn't limit your choice to B because you wouldn't have chosen A, anyway.
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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3/12/2013 6:03:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
No. For God to know what option you will take requires predestination. One can perform a lot of mental gymnastics to semantically cover up the problem, but ultimately if you can't choose something other than what God knows you will choose, then your choice is an illusion.
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
medic0506
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3/12/2013 6:10:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/12/2013 6:03:45 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
No. For God to know what option you will take requires predestination. One can perform a lot of mental gymnastics to semantically cover up the problem, but ultimately if you can't choose something other than what God knows you will choose, then your choice is an illusion.

How can it be predestined when you don't even know the answer until the moment that you decide, yet you're free to choose between 2 or more options??
RyuuKyuzo
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3/12/2013 6:13:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/12/2013 6:10:48 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/12/2013 6:03:45 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
No. For God to know what option you will take requires predestination. One can perform a lot of mental gymnastics to semantically cover up the problem, but ultimately if you can't choose something other than what God knows you will choose, then your choice is an illusion.

How can it be predestined when you don't even know the answer until the moment that you decide, yet you're free to choose between 2 or more options??

How can it not be predestined when God already knows your what your choice will be, along with every single factor that will go in to why you will make that choice?
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
annanicole
Posts: 19,790
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3/12/2013 6:31:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/12/2013 6:13:46 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 3/12/2013 6:10:48 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/12/2013 6:03:45 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
No. For God to know what option you will take requires predestination. One can perform a lot of mental gymnastics to semantically cover up the problem, but ultimately if you can't choose something other than what God knows you will choose, then your choice is an illusion.

How can it be predestined when you don't even know the answer until the moment that you decide, yet you're free to choose between 2 or more options??

How can it not be predestined when God already knows your what your choice will be, along with every single factor that will go in to why you will make that choice?

Perhaps an all-powerful God can utilize that power by choosing not to know. To say that God "knows" whether this person or that person will be saved or lost at life's end, to me, obliterates free will in the matter. What if God has simply elected not to micromanage men's lives in order to allow free use of free will?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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3/12/2013 7:07:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/12/2013 6:31:06 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/12/2013 6:13:46 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 3/12/2013 6:10:48 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/12/2013 6:03:45 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
No. For God to know what option you will take requires predestination. One can perform a lot of mental gymnastics to semantically cover up the problem, but ultimately if you can't choose something other than what God knows you will choose, then your choice is an illusion.

How can it be predestined when you don't even know the answer until the moment that you decide, yet you're free to choose between 2 or more options??

How can it not be predestined when God already knows your what your choice will be, along with every single factor that will go in to why you will make that choice?

Perhaps an all-powerful God can utilize that power by choosing not to know. To say that God "knows" whether this person or that person will be saved or lost at life's end, to me, obliterates free will in the matter. What if God has simply elected not to micromanage men's lives in order to allow free use of free will?

I don't see how you can choose not to know something. Besides, God has a plan, so he can't exactly afford to not know something.
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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3/12/2013 7:21:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The reason why God knows what choices we will make is because He sees our thoughts and intents before they become an action, not because He planned it. I don't see what is so difficult about it. God knows our intentions before we act on them because God sees our heart and knows our thoughts. Our thoughts direct our motives and therefore God knows what we decide because God knows what is in our mind and what our desires are.
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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3/12/2013 7:24:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/12/2013 7:21:05 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
The reason why God knows what choices we will make is because He sees our thoughts and intents before they become an action, not because He planned it. I don't see what is so difficult about it. God knows our intentions before we act on them because God sees our heart and knows our thoughts. Our thoughts direct our motives and therefore God knows what we decide because God knows what is in our mind and what our desires are.

So god doesn't have a plan?
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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3/12/2013 7:27:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/12/2013 6:03:45 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
No. For God to know what option you will take requires predestination. One can perform a lot of mental gymnastics to semantically cover up the problem, but ultimately if you can't choose something other than what God knows you will choose, then your choice is an illusion.

NO, it doesn't require "predestination", it requires God knowing our heart, motives and thoughts before we act on them.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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3/12/2013 7:35:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/12/2013 7:24:58 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 3/12/2013 7:21:05 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
The reason why God knows what choices we will make is because He sees our thoughts and intents before they become an action, not because He planned it. I don't see what is so difficult about it. God knows our intentions before we act on them because God sees our heart and knows our thoughts. Our thoughts direct our motives and therefore God knows what we decide because God knows what is in our mind and what our desires are.

So god doesn't have a plan?

Sure God has a plan for anyone, does that mean you always follow it? Of course not lol. Do you always follow God's plan??? I don't. I make mistakes and sometimes I choose my own way and God forgives and is patient.
muzebreak
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3/12/2013 7:48:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/12/2013 1:15:52 PM, Slifer wrote:
If someone has to choose between to things in the future, and God knows what that person is going to choose, does that person have a choice?

Yes, they do have a choice. But, hypothetically, god just knows what they will choose. And while they have the ability to make another choice, that does not detract from gods ability to know their choice.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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3/12/2013 8:04:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/12/2013 2:27:44 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 3/12/2013 2:25:17 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 3/12/2013 1:15:52 PM, Slifer wrote:
If someone has to choose between to things in the future, and God knows what that person is going to choose, does that person have a choice?

I don't see how not. How does God knowing how a person would freely choose somehow determine them? Isn't it still true that they could have chosen other?

I think the point of the question is that it's NOT true that they could have chosen the other; if they were going to choose B instead of A, God would have known about THAT choice instead; by knowing that the person is going to choose A, the question is, can the person (who cannot choose anything else, because God already knows he will choose A) be really be said to have made the choice.

Again, I don't see how it follows that just because God has middle knowledge of how a free agent would choose given certain known counterfactuals, that therefore the creature who chooses X wouldn't be just influenced to choose X, but actually determined to do so.

What you're asking in effect is simply how God knows these counterfactuals, not how a person chooses something given the existence of an all knower.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/12/2013 9:52:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/12/2013 6:31:06 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/12/2013 6:13:46 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 3/12/2013 6:10:48 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/12/2013 6:03:45 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
No. For God to know what option you will take requires predestination. One can perform a lot of mental gymnastics to semantically cover up the problem, but ultimately if you can't choose something other than what God knows you will choose, then your choice is an illusion.

How can it be predestined when you don't even know the answer until the moment that you decide, yet you're free to choose between 2 or more options??

How can it not be predestined when God already knows your what your choice will be, along with every single factor that will go in to why you will make that choice?

Perhaps an all-powerful God can utilize that power by choosing not to know. To say that God "knows" whether this person or that person will be saved or lost at life's end, to me, obliterates free will in the matter. What if God has simply elected not to micromanage men's lives in order to allow free use of free will?

Omniscience is part of God's definition here. Thus, he can't chose not to be omniscient. That would be the same as choosing not to be God.
annanicole
Posts: 19,790
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3/12/2013 10:16:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/12/2013 7:07:33 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 3/12/2013 6:31:06 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/12/2013 6:13:46 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 3/12/2013 6:10:48 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/12/2013 6:03:45 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
No. For God to know what option you will take requires predestination. One can perform a lot of mental gymnastics to semantically cover up the problem, but ultimately if you can't choose something other than what God knows you will choose, then your choice is an illusion.

How can it be predestined when you don't even know the answer until the moment that you decide, yet you're free to choose between 2 or more options??

How can it not be predestined when God already knows your what your choice will be, along with every single factor that will go in to why you will make that choice?

Perhaps an all-powerful God can utilize that power by choosing not to know. To say that God "knows" whether this person or that person will be saved or lost at life's end, to me, obliterates free will in the matter. What if God has simply elected not to micromanage men's lives in order to allow free use of free will?

I don't see how you can choose not to know something. Besides, God has a plan, so he can't exactly afford to not know something.

Well ... lol ... whether you "see how" - or whether I "see how" ... is it not possible that God has in His wisdom and plan chosen NOT to know everything regarding future events? Is that not possible? That does not imply that He has chosen to have no overall plan. That does not imply that He has chosen to just leave everything up in the air. What it means is that God could have chosen to allow man to utilize his own free will. I have never, ever believed that God micromanages men's lives, yet I have always believed that God has an overall plan. I see no contradiction between the two.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
Posts: 19,790
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3/12/2013 10:22:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/12/2013 9:52:52 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/12/2013 6:31:06 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/12/2013 6:13:46 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 3/12/2013 6:10:48 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/12/2013 6:03:45 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
No. For God to know what option you will take requires predestination. One can perform a lot of mental gymnastics to semantically cover up the problem, but ultimately if you can't choose something other than what God knows you will choose, then your choice is an illusion.

How can it be predestined when you don't even know the answer until the moment that you decide, yet you're free to choose between 2 or more options??

How can it not be predestined when God already knows your what your choice will be, along with every single factor that will go in to why you will make that choice?

Perhaps an all-powerful God can utilize that power by choosing not to know. To say that God "knows" whether this person or that person will be saved or lost at life's end, to me, obliterates free will in the matter. What if God has simply elected not to micromanage men's lives in order to allow free use of free will?

Omniscience is part of God's definition here. Thus, he can't chose not to be omniscient. That would be the same as choosing not to be God.

Yeah, I saw it. I'd eliminate it. And eliminating "micro-management level" future knowledge does not equate with "choosing not to be God." God leaves many things - most things - about my life (and everyone else's life) up to us. Does God know when I shall die? I do not think so. I believe He has elected to leave that up to nature. I can possibly extend my life, for instance, by stopping smoking. If I stop, it's because I wanted to - not because God foreordained it and engraved it in granite.

That's the only manner in which I've ever been able to explain the subject to my own satisfaction - or closer to my own satisfaction that other explanations I might come up with.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Sola.Gratia
Posts: 278
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3/13/2013 1:00:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/12/2013 7:35:28 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/12/2013 7:24:58 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 3/12/2013 7:21:05 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
The reason why God knows what choices we will make is because He sees our thoughts and intents before they become an action, not because He planned it. I don't see what is so difficult about it. God knows our intentions before we act on them because God sees our heart and knows our thoughts. Our thoughts direct our motives and therefore God knows what we decide because God knows what is in our mind and what our desires are.

So god doesn't have a plan?

Sure God has a plan for anyone, does that mean you always follow it? Of course not lol. Do you always follow God's plan??? I don't. I make mistakes and sometimes I choose my own way and God forgives and is patient.

Even in our mistakes is a part of God's plans.. remember what happened to Joseph? He was sold into slavery by his brothers and then when they finally came to Egypt, Joseph was a governor, but they did not know that until he revealed it to them.. What did he tell them? Do you remember... He said, what you meant for evil God meant for Good.. So even in our sinfulness God still is working His plan out in us.. Philippians 1:6 says, He who began a Good work in you, will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
"What is sin? It is the glory of God not honored. Holiness of God not reverenced. Greatness of God not admired. Power of God not praised. Truth of God not sought. Wisdom of God not esteemed. Beauty of God not treasured. Goodness of God not savored. Faithfulness of God not trusted. Commandments of God not obeyed. Justice of God not respected. Wrath of God not feared. Grace of God not cherished. Presence of God not prized. Person of God not loved. That is sin." ~John Piper
Sola.Gratia
Posts: 278
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3/13/2013 1:09:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/12/2013 10:22:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/12/2013 9:52:52 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/12/2013 6:31:06 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/12/2013 6:13:46 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 3/12/2013 6:10:48 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 3/12/2013 6:03:45 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
No. For God to know what option you will take requires predestination. One can perform a lot of mental gymnastics to semantically cover up the problem, but ultimately if you can't choose something other than what God knows you will choose, then your choice is an illusion.

How can it be predestined when you don't even know the answer until the moment that you decide, yet you're free to choose between 2 or more options??

How can it not be predestined when God already knows your what your choice will be, along with every single factor that will go in to why you will make that choice?

Perhaps an all-powerful God can utilize that power by choosing not to know. To say that God "knows" whether this person or that person will be saved or lost at life's end, to me, obliterates free will in the matter. What if God has simply elected not to micromanage men's lives in order to allow free use of free will?

Omniscience is part of God's definition here. Thus, he can't chose not to be omniscient. That would be the same as choosing not to be God.

Yeah, I saw it. I'd eliminate it. And eliminating "micro-management level" future knowledge does not equate with "choosing not to be God." God leaves many things - most things - about my life (and everyone else's life) up to us. Does God know when I shall die? I do not think so. I believe He has elected to leave that up to nature. I can possibly extend my life, for instance, by stopping smoking. If I stop, it's because I wanted to - not because God foreordained it and engraved it in granite.

That's the only manner in which I've ever been able to explain the subject to my own satisfaction - or closer to my own satisfaction that other explanations I might come up with.

Do you believe God to be sovereign? If not then that would explain your disbelief in is His power to control death and life. If you were to stand in the middle of the street and had your back turned the opposite way and then get hit by a truck and died, would you say that you had control there? No, right? God would be the one to permit that to happen not you. Anybody can stop smoking or taking drugs or anything all they want, but if you die the next year its because that was your time to end on this earth.. God ended it.. Not you.. We're not all powerful to have that kind of control to say when we can or cannot die.. If we live on its because God permits us to live on.. He permits us to be safe and stay secure..But once our time is up, that's it..
"What is sin? It is the glory of God not honored. Holiness of God not reverenced. Greatness of God not admired. Power of God not praised. Truth of God not sought. Wisdom of God not esteemed. Beauty of God not treasured. Goodness of God not savored. Faithfulness of God not trusted. Commandments of God not obeyed. Justice of God not respected. Wrath of God not feared. Grace of God not cherished. Presence of God not prized. Person of God not loved. That is sin." ~John Piper
annanicole
Posts: 19,790
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3/13/2013 1:42:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Do you believe God to be sovereign?"

Yes, I believe God possesses and exercises supreme authority. I also believe that He possesses the power to choose whether certain futures events are foreordained or not. I do not try to limit God nor His ability.

"If not then that would explain your disbelief in is His power to control death and life."

I do not recall stating that God did not have the power to control death and life, but if you'll find the statement from me, I'll consent to having said it. I believe that God possesses the power of know or not know - to decree or not to decree - to fix or not to fix - certain events. As I said, I do not even try to limit God or His abilities.

"If you were to stand in the middle of the street and had your back turned the opposite way and then get hit by a truck and died, would you say that you had control there? No, right? God would be the one to permit that to happen not you."

God permitted it by giving me free will, and I made the choice.

"Anybody can stop smoking or taking drugs or anything all they want, but if you die the next year its because that was your time to end on this earth.. God ended it."

God certainly chooses to end the lives of smokers about ten years before He ends the lives of nonsmokers, for some reason. I'd say God gives everyone a choice: if one chooses destructive behaviors, then he will pay the price (usually). But no, I do not believe God has firmly fixed the date of my death at all.

"We're not all powerful to have that kind of control to say when we can or cannot die.. If we live on its because God permits us to live on.. He permits us to be safe and stay secure..But once our time is up, that's it."

Do you limit God? Do you claim that God does not possess the ability to give man free will? Do you claim that God cannot possibly choose not to firmly fix or foreordain certain events? If so, how do you decide that God does not possess this power?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Sola.Gratia
Posts: 278
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3/13/2013 2:16:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 1:42:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
"Do you believe God to be sovereign?"

Yes, I believe God possesses and exercises supreme authority. I also believe that He possesses the power to choose whether certain futures events are foreordained or not. I do not try to limit God nor His ability.

"If not then that would explain your disbelief in is His power to control death and life."

I do not recall stating that God did not have the power to control death and life, but if you'll find the statement from me, I'll consent to having said it. I believe that God possesses the power of know or not know - to decree or not to decree - to fix or not to fix - certain events. As I said, I do not even try to limit God or His abilities.

"If you were to stand in the middle of the street and had your back turned the opposite way and then get hit by a truck and died, would you say that you had control there? No, right? God would be the one to permit that to happen not you."

God permitted it by giving me free will, and I made the choice.

"Anybody can stop smoking or taking drugs or anything all they want, but if you die the next year its because that was your time to end on this earth.. God ended it."

God certainly chooses to end the lives of smokers about ten years before He ends the lives of nonsmokers, for some reason. I'd say God gives everyone a choice: if one chooses destructive behaviors, then he will pay the price (usually). But no, I do not believe God has firmly fixed the date of my death at all.

"We're not all powerful to have that kind of control to say when we can or cannot die.. If we live on its because God permits us to live on.. He permits us to be safe and stay secure..But once our time is up, that's it."

Do you limit God? Do you claim that God does not possess the ability to give man free will? Do you claim that God cannot possibly choose not to firmly fix or foreordain certain events? If so, how do you decide that God does not possess this power?

My apologies, I misread your post concerning Gods power..
To answer your questions.. No I do not limit God because He has no limit..
To a certain degree, I believe that yes, God gives us the choice to make decisions otherwise we wouldn't have to give an answer to Him when we stand before Him on the day of judgment .. God does not need to fix anything because He has already planned everything out and stands as that regardless of our flawed mistakes we make on a daily basis..
"What is sin? It is the glory of God not honored. Holiness of God not reverenced. Greatness of God not admired. Power of God not praised. Truth of God not sought. Wisdom of God not esteemed. Beauty of God not treasured. Goodness of God not savored. Faithfulness of God not trusted. Commandments of God not obeyed. Justice of God not respected. Wrath of God not feared. Grace of God not cherished. Presence of God not prized. Person of God not loved. That is sin." ~John Piper
Cyrano
Posts: 33
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3/13/2013 2:23:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Perhaps an analogy would be helpful.

You are going to flip a coin. You somehow KNOW that the coin will land on heads when you flip it. At the moment you flip it, can you honestly say the coin could land on either heads or tails?
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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3/13/2013 7:53:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 1:00:52 AM, Sola.Gratia wrote:
At 3/12/2013 7:35:28 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/12/2013 7:24:58 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 3/12/2013 7:21:05 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
The reason why God knows what choices we will make is because He sees our thoughts and intents before they become an action, not because He planned it. I don't see what is so difficult about it. God knows our intentions before we act on them because God sees our heart and knows our thoughts. Our thoughts direct our motives and therefore God knows what we decide because God knows what is in our mind and what our desires are.

So god doesn't have a plan?

Sure God has a plan for anyone, does that mean you always follow it? Of course not lol. Do you always follow God's plan??? I don't. I make mistakes and sometimes I choose my own way and God forgives and is patient.

Even in our mistakes is a part of God's plans.. remember what happened to Joseph? He was sold into slavery by his brothers and then when they finally came to Egypt, Joseph was a governor, but they did not know that until he revealed it to them.. What did he tell them? Do you remember... He said, what you meant for evil God meant for Good.. So even in our sinfulness God still is working His plan out in us.. Philippians 1:6 says, He who began a Good work in you, will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Yes I know what is in the Bible, I have been reading it since I was 9 lol. No, I'm not a "micromanager" believer, partly due to the entirety of the scriptures not just single verses here and there. First of all Joseph did not commit the wrong, his brothers did. If I made a mistake that God made me do, what would I need to ask forgiveness for lol? If God's Word says not to lie and I lie then that is disobeying God's word. If God says not to fornicate and I go sleep with someone that is not God's will for me, that is my choice. If I screw up half my life, YES God has the ability to turn it into something. God can turn trash into gold, that is what God does. When I choose what God wants and I obey God at His word then Matthew 6:33
Sola.Gratia
Posts: 278
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3/13/2013 11:30:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 7:53:49 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/13/2013 1:00:52 AM, Sola.Gratia wrote:
At 3/12/2013 7:35:28 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/12/2013 7:24:58 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 3/12/2013 7:21:05 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
The reason why God knows what choices we will make is because He sees our thoughts and intents before they become an action, not because He planned it. I don't see what is so difficult about it. God knows our intentions before we act on them because God sees our heart and knows our thoughts. Our thoughts direct our motives and therefore God knows what we decide because God knows what is in our mind and what our desires are.

So god doesn't have a plan?

Sure God has a plan for anyone, does that mean you always follow it? Of course not lol. Do you always follow God's plan??? I don't. I make mistakes and sometimes I choose my own way and God forgives and is patient.

Even in our mistakes is a part of God's plans.. remember what happened to Joseph? He was sold into slavery by his brothers and then when they finally came to Egypt, Joseph was a governor, but they did not know that until he revealed it to them.. What did he tell them? Do you remember... He said, what you meant for evil God meant for Good.. So even in our sinfulness God still is working His plan out in us.. Philippians 1:6 says, He who began a Good work in you, will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Yes I know what is in the Bible, I have been reading it since I was 9 lol. No, I'm not a "micromanager" believer, partly due to the entirety of the scriptures not just single verses here and there. First of all Joseph did not commit the wrong, his brothers did. If I made a mistake that God made me do, what would I need to ask forgiveness for lol? If God's Word says not to lie and I lie then that is disobeying God's word. If God says not to fornicate and I go sleep with someone that is not God's will for me, that is my choice. If I screw up half my life, YES God has the ability to turn it into something. God can turn trash into gold, that is what God does. When I choose what God wants and I obey God at His word then Matthew 6:33

My friend, don't misunderstand me please. I'm not labeling you to be a "micromanager".. I am glad though, that you have been reading and studying the Bible since you were 9 years of age.. That is awesome! :)

I did not say that Joseph committed a sin or anything of the sort.. I was just showing an example from the Bible to show that even in our sinfulness God still turns it around and uses it for Good. You mentioned that if we tell a lie that then it is disobeying God's Word. That is exactly right! The thing your not understanding is that, even though we mess up He already knew it before you or I were even born and because of this that's why He sent His Son Jesus to die for us (for then's society and today's society).. But the reason we go to Him in prayer to repent and ask for forgiveness is not merely because He does not already know about it, it is because He wants us to talk to Him and admit to Him that we are wrong and that we need Him. I agree we do mess up on a daily basis, but again God knows that and has made a way for us to turn from that. Repent... (Matthew 4:17).. In the Beginning of Genesis, it was a perfect example.. God knew that Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit, but He asked them to test them even though He already knew that they would blame the other or another for disobeying God.. It all started in the Beginning of time.. Test what I am saying by going and looking in the Bible.. God bless.
"What is sin? It is the glory of God not honored. Holiness of God not reverenced. Greatness of God not admired. Power of God not praised. Truth of God not sought. Wisdom of God not esteemed. Beauty of God not treasured. Goodness of God not savored. Faithfulness of God not trusted. Commandments of God not obeyed. Justice of God not respected. Wrath of God not feared. Grace of God not cherished. Presence of God not prized. Person of God not loved. That is sin." ~John Piper
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
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3/13/2013 1:34:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/12/2013 1:15:52 PM, Slifer wrote:
If someone has to choose between to things in the future, and God knows what that person is going to choose, does that person have a choice?

Yes, the person has a free choice between A or B, God just knows which choice that person will choose. If the person will choose A, God knows it. If the person would have chosen B, God knows that, too.

To argue otherwise commits the fallacy of confusing cause and effect. The person doesn't choose A because God knows he will, God knows the person will choose A because he chooses A.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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3/13/2013 4:27:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2013 11:30:09 AM, Sola.Gratia wrote:
At 3/13/2013 7:53:49 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/13/2013 1:00:52 AM, Sola.Gratia wrote:
At 3/12/2013 7:35:28 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 3/12/2013 7:24:58 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 3/12/2013 7:21:05 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
The reason why God knows what choices we will make is because He sees our thoughts and intents before they become an action, not because He planned it. I don't see what is so difficult about it. God knows our intentions before we act on them because God sees our heart and knows our thoughts. Our thoughts direct our motives and therefore God knows what we decide because God knows what is in our mind and what our desires are.

So god doesn't have a plan?

Sure God has a plan for anyone, does that mean you always follow it? Of course not lol. Do you always follow God's plan??? I don't. I make mistakes and sometimes I choose my own way and God forgives and is patient.

Even in our mistakes is a part of God's plans.. remember what happened to Joseph? He was sold into slavery by his brothers and then when they finally came to Egypt, Joseph was a governor, but they did not know that until he revealed it to them.. What did he tell them? Do you remember... He said, what you meant for evil God meant for Good.. So even in our sinfulness God still is working His plan out in us.. Philippians 1:6 says, He who began a Good work in you, will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Yes I know what is in the Bible, I have been reading it since I was 9 lol. No, I'm not a "micromanager" believer, partly due to the entirety of the scriptures not just single verses here and there. First of all Joseph did not commit the wrong, his brothers did. If I made a mistake that God made me do, what would I need to ask forgiveness for lol? If God's Word says not to lie and I lie then that is disobeying God's word. If God says not to fornicate and I go sleep with someone that is not God's will for me, that is my choice. If I screw up half my life, YES God has the ability to turn it into something. God can turn trash into gold, that is what God does. When I choose what God wants and I obey God at His word then Matthew 6:33

My friend, don't misunderstand me please. I'm not labeling you to be a "micromanager".. I am glad though, that you have been reading and studying the Bible since you were 9 years of age.. That is awesome! :)

I did not say that Joseph committed a sin or anything of the sort.. I was just showing an example from the Bible to show that even in our sinfulness God still turns it around and uses it for Good. You mentioned that if we tell a lie that then it is disobeying God's Word. That is exactly right! The thing your not understanding is that, even though we mess up He already knew it before you or I were even born and because of this that's why He sent His Son Jesus to die for us (for then's society and today's society).. But the reason we go to Him in prayer to repent and ask for forgiveness is not merely because He does not already know about it, it is because He wants us to talk to Him and admit to Him that we are wrong and that we need Him. I agree we do mess up on a daily basis, but again God knows that and has made a way for us to turn from that. Repent... (Matthew 4:17).. In the Beginning of Genesis, it was a perfect example.. God knew that Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit, but He asked them to test them even though He already knew that they would blame the other or another for disobeying God.. It all started in the Beginning of time.. Test what I am saying by going and looking in the Bible.. God bless.

What? I believe I DID say God knows what we choose before we do it in my OP lol? How do us religious people get so confused with one another? I think maybe we disagree on HOW He knows not "IF" He knows and I already know the rest of what you wrote, but thanks for the concern though :)