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Problems with the Christian God

Pennington
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3/21/2013 3:15:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Before one should actually try and convince someone on the existence of God then we should try and overcome the problems non-believers have with Him. Any and all leave your issues with the Christian God and/or the Bible since the go hand in hand. Any ignorant comments will just be ignored by me atlas. This is a serious attempt to engage non-believers about their problems with the Christian's projected God.

Both sides minds need to be open to reality and truth or just don't post because it would be a waste of time.
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Illegalcombatant
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3/21/2013 4:02:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 3:15:27 AM, Pennington wrote:
Before one should actually try and convince someone on the existence of God then we should try and overcome the problems non-believers have with Him. Any and all leave your issues with the Christian God and/or the Bible since the go hand in hand. Any ignorant comments will just be ignored by me atlas. This is a serious attempt to engage non-believers about their problems with the Christian's projected God.

Both sides minds need to be open to reality and truth or just don't post because it would be a waste of time.

I find the claim from Evangelical christians or any group who know "Gods Truth" to be open minded dubious because being open minded is a one way street for them. They want people to be open minded to their religious claims but they are not open minded to claims that contradict their religious claims for example...

1) The bible is not authored by an all powerful, all knowing extra cosmic person, but is rather man made.
2) The bible contains falsehoods
3) That humans and/or any life on earth are not the result of intentionaility
4) That all humans are the descendants of one man and one woman who existed about 6000-7000 years ago who themselves have no pre-ceding biological causes is false.
5) That gratuitous/unnecessary suffering exists
6) The free will defense of the child torturer is an excuse to make God compatible with the existence of child torture
7) That many rationalizations for the existence of God in light of evidence are unwarranted
8) That their religious experience of God is not actually an experience of God but rather the product of religious indoctrination, teaching, sermons, bible groups, power of persuasion etc etc.

So lets be open minded of the above claims as well eh ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Pennington
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3/21/2013 4:15:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 4:02:05 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 3/21/2013 3:15:27 AM, Pennington wrote:
Before one should actually try and convince someone on the existence of God then we should try and overcome the problems non-believers have with Him. Any and all leave your issues with the Christian God and/or the Bible since the go hand in hand. Any ignorant comments will just be ignored by me atlas. This is a serious attempt to engage non-believers about their problems with the Christian's projected God.

Both sides minds need to be open to reality and truth or just don't post because it would be a waste of time.

I find the claim from Evangelical christians or any group who know "Gods Truth" to be open minded dubious because being open minded is a one way street for them. They want people to be open minded to their religious claims but they are not open minded to claims that contradict their religious claims for example...

1) The bible is not authored by an all powerful, all knowing extra cosmic person, but is rather man made.:
Man's pencil but God's words.
2) The bible contains falsehoods:
Evidence.
3) That humans and/or any life on earth are not the result of intentionaility:
No way you can prove that and in fact everything in life is designed in some way. Can I take my tin cans outside and blow them up and they then turn into a car?
4) That all humans are the descendants of one man and one woman who existed about 6000-7000 years ago who themselves have no pre-ceding biological causes is false.:
You can not say it is false because you have no proof it is not.
5) That gratuitous/unnecessary suffering exists:
It does.
6) The free will defense of the child torturer is an excuse to make God compatible with the existence of child torture:
LOL. So God should come down and destroy child torturers? If that happened then they wouldnt be child torturers. You suggesting people be punished before their crime?
7) That many rationalizations for the existence of God in light of evidence are unwarranted:
Evidence?
8) That their religious experience of God is not actually an experience of God but rather the product of religious indoctrination, teaching, sermons, bible groups, power of persuasion etc etc.:
You must provide evidence and/ or proof for that. Assertions.

So lets be open minded of the above claims as well eh ?:
No doubt you do as well.
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Illegalcombatant
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3/21/2013 4:46:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 4:15:54 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/21/2013 4:02:05 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 3/21/2013 3:15:27 AM, Pennington wrote:
Before one should actually try and convince someone on the existence of God then we should try and overcome the problems non-believers have with Him. Any and all leave your issues with the Christian God and/or the Bible since the go hand in hand. Any ignorant comments will just be ignored by me atlas. This is a serious attempt to engage non-believers about their problems with the Christian's projected God.

Both sides minds need to be open to reality and truth or just don't post because it would be a waste of time.

I find the claim from Evangelical christians or any group who know "Gods Truth" to be open minded dubious because being open minded is a one way street for them. They want people to be open minded to their religious claims but they are not open minded to claims that contradict their religious claims for example...

1) The bible is not authored by an all powerful, all knowing extra cosmic person, but is rather man made.:
Man's pencil but God's words.

Maybe, maybe Man's pencil & mans words.

Oh and who told you that the bible is Gods word ? God or Man ?

2) The bible contains falsehoods:
Evidence.

I will let others jump in here.

3) That humans and/or any life on earth are not the result of intentionaility:
No way you can prove that and in fact everything in life is designed in some way. Can I take my tin cans outside and blow them up and they then turn into a car?

Tin can's being exploded don't result in cars therefore everything in life is the result of intentionality.

Let's just pretend you didn't say that, moving on...

4) That all humans are the descendants of one man and one woman who existed about 6000-7000 years ago who themselves have no pre-ceding biological causes is false.:
You can not say it is false because you have no proof it is not.

You can't prove we don't all live in the matrix either, or that aliens come to earth every now and then to rape humans.

5) That gratuitous/unnecessary suffering exists:
It does.

6) The free will defense of the child torturer is an excuse to make God compatible with the existence of child torture:
LOL. So God should come down and destroy child torturers? If that happened then they wouldnt be child torturers. You suggesting people be punished before their crime?

LOL so God has to allow the child torturer to torture the child otherwise there would be no child torturers ? Well f*ck, if that isn't the most convincing rationalization for the existence of child torture then I don't know what is.

7) That many rationalizations for the existence of God in light of evidence are unwarranted:
Evidence?

8) That their religious experience of God is not actually an experience of God but rather the product of religious indoctrination, teaching, sermons, bible groups, power of persuasion etc etc.:
You must provide evidence and/ or proof for that. Assertions.

There is a strong correlation between the God people experience and the God that is taught to them by other people.

So lets be open minded of the above claims as well eh ?:
No doubt you do as well.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
muzebreak
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3/21/2013 5:08:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Define your god.

Do you believe him to be tri-omni?

Do you believe he would purposefully deceive his people?

Do you believe that he wants everyone to go to heaven rather then hell, and for that matter do you believe in hell? And if so, define hell. Do you believe in the inerranncy of biblical scripture? Are you a biblical literalist, as in do you believe genesis is a literal account of gods creation of the universe?

Do you believe in a young earth, and if you do, do you believe that your god might create it in a manner that it might look older then it is?

Do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve 6-10,000 years ago, and that they did partake of the fruit resulting in original sin?

Do you believe that the bible is an accurate historical account, and if so, would you accept other records that are affirmed in their historicity as superceding the bible if they showed differences in their record of history?

What is your standard for discerning the bible is true, as in 'beyond reasonable doubt', or do you accept it on faith?
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Pennington
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3/21/2013 5:16:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 4:46:24 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:

1) The bible is not authored by an all powerful, all knowing extra cosmic person, but is rather man made.:
Man's pencil but God's words.

Maybe, maybe Man's pencil & mans words.

Oh and who told you that the bible is Gods word ? God or Man ?:
Both have told me.

3) That humans and/or any life on earth are not the result of intentionaility:
No way you can prove that and in fact everything in life is designed in some way. Can I take my tin cans outside and blow them up and they then turn into a car?

Tin can's being exploded don't result in cars therefore everything in life is the result of intentionality.:
Something to the effect. You act as if designership is not all through our world and life. We can repeat any random thing but something that takes real craftmanship is unrepeatable other than the crafter.

Let's just pretend you didn't say that, moving on...:
You need to let it soak in and apply it to all of life.

4) That all humans are the descendants of one man and one woman who existed about 6000-7000 years ago who themselves have no pre-ceding biological causes is false.:
You can not say it is false because you have no proof it is not.

You can't prove we don't all live in the matrix either, or that aliens come to earth every now and then to rape humans.:
So you admit is was just a assertion and nothing can come from it because unprovable either way.
LOL. So God should come down and destroy child torturers? If that happened then they wouldnt be child torturers. You suggesting people be punished before their crime?

LOL so God has to allow the child torturer to torture the child otherwise there would be no child torturers ? Well f*ck, if that isn't the most convincing rationalization for the existence of child torture then I don't know what is.:
You skip over the heafty part of that statement which was that if God got rid of the child torturer before he does it then He is punishing the torturer before he committs his act.

8) That their religious experience of God is not actually an experience of God but rather the product of religious indoctrination, teaching, sermons, bible groups, power of persuasion etc etc.:
You must provide evidence and/ or proof for that. Assertions.

There is a strong correlation between the God people experience and the God that is taught to them by other people.:
You act as if persuasion is not used in the scientific fields or any other field for that matter. In fact the God that is taught is in fact the God that is experienced.
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Pennington
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3/21/2013 5:23:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 5:08:13 AM, muzebreak wrote:
Define your god. :
God of Israel, Jesus Christ.

Do you believe him to be tri-omni?:
Yes.

Do you believe he would purposefully deceive his people?:
No.

Do you believe that he wants everyone to go to heaven rather then hell,:
Yes.
and for that matter do you believe in hell?:
Yes.
And if so, define hell.:
That's hard to do. No knows that exact description. Burning sulfur, eternal punishment, pain.
Do you believe in the inerranncy of biblical scripture?:
Depending on which Bible you use.
Are you a biblical literalist, as in do you believe genesis is a literal account of gods creation of the universe?:
I am a literalist.

Do you believe in a young earth,:
Yes.
and if you do, do you believe that your god might create it in a manner that it might look older then it is?:
Yes to a extent.

Do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve 6-10,000 years ago, and that they did partake of the fruit resulting in original sin?:
Yes

Do you believe that the bible is an accurate historical account,:
Yes
and if so, would you accept other records that are affirmed in their historicity as superseding the bible if they showed differences in their record of history?:
No the Biblical account supersedes all others.

What is your standard for discerning the bible is true, as in 'beyond reasonable doubt', or do you accept it on faith?:
I research it, I try to find evidence it is incorrect, but it is all circumstantial. I do accept that my God has reserved His word on faith but really there are endless accounts in the Bible that have been proven true.
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muzebreak
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3/21/2013 5:57:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 5:23:55 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/21/2013 5:08:13 AM, muzebreak wrote:
Define your god. :
God of Israel, Jesus Christ.

By define your god, I mean explain what it is. Is it a transdimensional being that lives by absorbing the love and worship of the people it creates, or is it
a bearded man with the power to destroy worlds with but a thought? I'm not saying either of those is in the slightest bit true, but what is your god exactly?

Do you believe him to be tri-omni?:
Yes.

Do you believe that it is possible for everyone in the universe to only choose good things of their own free will? If not, then why? If so, then why wouldn't god create a world in which they did?


Do you believe he would purposefully deceive his people?:
No.

Then how do you explain the fact that we can see stars that are billions of light years away? And why is it that one of our chromosomes have a telomere in the middle, when the only way for that to happen is for two chromosomes to combine, which is exactly what would have happend if we were evolved from a common ancestor with apes?


Do you believe that he wants everyone to go to heaven rather then hell,:
Yes.

What are the standards for getting in to heaven?

and for that matter do you believe in hell?:
Yes.
And if so, define hell.:
That's hard to do. No knows that exact description. Burning sulfur, eternal punishment, pain.

Do you believe that existence in hell is endless?

Do you believe in the inerranncy of biblical scripture?:
Depending on which Bible you use.

Whichever bible you want.

Are you a biblical literalist, as in do you believe genesis is a literal account of gods creation of the universe?:
I am a literalist.

Do you trust any scientific facts, or do you believe the bible supercedes all of them?


Do you believe in a young earth,:
Yes.

Why?

and if you do, do you believe that your god might create it in a manner that it might look older then it is?:
Yes to a extent.

What extent would that be?


Do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve 6-10,000 years ago, and that they did partake of the fruit resulting in original sin?:
Yes

Why would god create a situation, which he knew would end in original sin?


Do you believe that the bible is an accurate historical account,:
Yes
and if so, would you accept other records that are affirmed in their historicity as superseding the bible if they showed differences in their record of history?:
No the Biblical account supersedes all others.

Why?


What is your standard for discerning the bible is true, as in 'beyond reasonable doubt', or do you accept it on faith?:
I research it, I try to find evidence it is incorrect, but it is all circumstantial. I do accept that my God has reserved His word on faith but really there are endless accounts in the Bible that have been proven true.

But you just said that you believe the biblical historicity supercedes all other accounts? So how is it that you have tried to find evidence of falsities, if you automatically dismiss all contrary evidence?
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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3/21/2013 6:04:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 5:16:28 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/21/2013 4:46:24 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:

1) The bible is not authored by an all powerful, all knowing extra cosmic person, but is rather man made.:
Man's pencil but God's words.

Maybe, maybe Man's pencil & mans words.

Oh and who told you that the bible is Gods word ? God or Man ?:
Both have told me.

I doubt it. Have a look at the history of you life, at what point did God tell you the bible is the word of God ? BEFORE or AFTER you were told by MEN ?

Were you walking down the street one day and God appeard to you, explained that there is this thing called the bible and you should like totally belive in everything it says cause he wrote it ? No.

You get told bible this, bible that by your fellow man you then internalize that, and next thing you know....hey God told me this.

3) That humans and/or any life on earth are not the result of intentionaility:
No way you can prove that and in fact everything in life is designed in some way. Can I take my tin cans outside and blow them up and they then turn into a car?

Tin can's being exploded don't result in cars therefore everything in life is the result of intentionality.:
Something to the effect. You act as if designership is not all through our world and life. We can repeat any random thing but something that takes real craftmanship is unrepeatable other than the crafter.

Humans build cars therefore life is the result of intelligent design......next


Let's just pretend you didn't say that, moving on...:
You need to let it soak in and apply it to all of life.

You need to let it soak in that the natural world is not the same as man made objects like cars. Humans/life arn't put together the same way a car is, that's why the necessity of the car having intelligent design doesn't extend to the life....or black holes.


4) That all humans are the descendants of one man and one woman who existed about 6000-7000 years ago who themselves have no pre-ceding biological causes is false.:
You can not say it is false because you have no proof it is not.

You can't prove we don't all live in the matrix either, or that aliens come to earth every now and then to rape humans.:
So you admit is was just a assertion and nothing can come from it because unprovable either way.

The point here and with all the other points is how the religious like your can make up all these assertions and demand people be open minded, well there are counter assertions and now we demand that YOU being open minded about them too.

LOL. So God should come down and destroy child torturers? If that happened then they wouldnt be child torturers. You suggesting people be punished before their crime?

LOL so God has to allow the child torturer to torture the child otherwise there would be no child torturers ? Well f*ck, if that isn't the most convincing rationalization for the existence of child torture then I don't know what is.:
You skip over the heafty part of that statement which was that if God got rid of the child torturer before he does it then He is punishing the torturer before he committs his act.

I didn't miss anything, you just asked a question. Your not addressing my point here. Read again.


8) That their religious experience of God is not actually an experience of God but rather the product of religious indoctrination, teaching, sermons, bible groups, power of persuasion etc etc.:
You must provide evidence and/ or proof for that. Assertions.

There is a strong correlation between the God people experience and the God that is taught to them by other people.:
You act as if persuasion is not used in the scientific fields or any other field for that matter. In fact the God that is taught is in fact the God that is experienced.

I'am getting real sick of your lies at this point penn. I made a point about the correlation of how people see the God they are taught by other people. This is to counter how people go around telling themselves and others about how they have had a personal revelation of God. (You know Penn like yourself right ?)

Being on the receiving end of religious indoctrination isn't the same thing as God speaking to you. And if you can't make that distinction religion is going to absolutely own you. There is no shortage of people and groups who are more than willing to give you religious indoctrination then try and persuade or let you believe you those beliefs are from Gods mouth to your ears.

If you want to be a slave that is a great way to go about it.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/21/2013 6:04:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 3:15:27 AM, Pennington wrote:
Before one should actually try and convince someone on the existence of God then we should try and overcome the problems non-believers have with Him. Any and all leave your issues with the Christian God and/or the Bible since the go hand in hand. Any ignorant comments will just be ignored by me atlas. This is a serious attempt to engage non-believers about their problems with the Christian's projected God.

Both sides minds need to be open to reality and truth or just don't post because it would be a waste of time.

My problem is the notion that God is omnibenevolent and omnipotent. An omnipotent God would have created a different world than the one we live (one with no unneeded natural suffering), and an omnipotent God, could have. Yet, we find ourselves in this world, which makes it hard to believe in an omnibenevolent/ omnipotent God.
Pennington
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3/21/2013 6:17:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 5:57:40 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 3/21/2013 5:23:55 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/21/2013 5:08:13 AM, muzebreak wrote:
Define your god. :
God of Israel, Jesus Christ.

By define your god, I mean explain what it is. Is it a transdimensional being that lives by absorbing the love and worship of the people it creates, or is it
a bearded man with the power to destroy worlds with but a thought? I'm not saying either of those is in the slightest bit true, but what is your god exactly?:
I believe we live in a multi deminsional creation. We are on 3 deminsions but God is within 11 or more.

Do you believe that it is possible for everyone in the universe to only choose good things of their own free will?:
No
If not, then why? If so, then why wouldn't god create a world in which they did?:
I believe you can choose good by your own will but we also dont because of our own will.

Then how do you explain the fact that we can see stars that are billions of light years away?:
Because they were created to for signs, years and seasons, hence they needed to be seen and was created to be seen.
And why is it that one of our chromosomes have a telomere in the middle, when the only way for that to happen is for two chromosomes to combine, which is exactly what would have happend if we were evolved from a common ancestor with apes?:
So that is the only reason that would have happened?

What are the standards for getting in to heaven?:
Simply having faith in Him and seeking His salvation.

Do you believe that existence in hell is endless?:
It says it is eternal but it also says it will end. This seems to contradict but not if hell is simply outside any concept of God, their own place you may say. It last forever because everything is eternal but eventually it would be without God completely therefore coming to a end to God and heaven.

Do you believe in the inerranncy of biblical scripture?:
Depending on which Bible you use.

Whichever bible you want.:
The original Hebrew and Greek texts. If not then the KJV.

Are you a biblical literalist, as in do you believe genesis is a literal account of gods creation of the universe?:
I am a literalist.

Do you trust any scientific facts, or do you believe the bible supercedes all of them?:
I believe the scriptures should supercede any unproven fact. I understand that science thinks they proven things against the Bible and it shouldnt be ignored. I trust many scientific facts.


Do you believe in a young earth,:
Yes.

Why?:
Because we have evidence for it. Mainly because the Bible says so.

and if you do, do you believe that your god might create it in a manner that it might look older then it is?:
Yes to a extent.

What extent would that be?:
Like the stars, it would seem old but it is not. But that was needed for their purpose.


Do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve 6-10,000 years ago, and that they did partake of the fruit resulting in original sin?:
Yes

Why would god create a situation, which he knew would end in original sin?:
Because it is more important to God that you trust Him and His Law. Adam and Eve didnt.


Do you believe that the bible is an accurate historical account,:
Yes
and if so, would you accept other records that are affirmed in their historicity as superseding the bible if they showed differences in their record of history?:
No the Biblical account supersedes all others.

Why?:
Because re limited to us not knowing our past clearly enough to make those decisions. The Bible has a story that gives us all those answers and with its age and language translations it is still extremely accurate even if it had errors. Just look at the errors people bring up, they are weak, more of interpretation or language errors.


What is your standard for discerning the bible is true, as in 'beyond reasonable doubt', or do you accept it on faith?:
I research it, I try to find evidence it is incorrect, but it is all circumstantial. I do accept that my God has reserved His word on faith but really there are endless accounts in the Bible that have been proven true.

But you just said that you believe the biblical historicity supercedes all other accounts?:
Yes
So how is it that you have tried to find evidence of falsities, if you automatically dismiss all contrary evidence?:
I do not dismiss it. I just believe the Bible more. The Bible itself tells you to seek and find evidence for my faith.
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Pennington
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3/21/2013 6:32:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 6:04:23 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:

I doubt it. Have a look at the history of you life, at what point did God tell you the bible is the word of God ? BEFORE or AFTER you were told by MEN ?:
I was saved when I was 8 so I had never been really witnessed too. I went to church but never payed attention until I had a sudden feeling too. I felt like I needed to believe God and ask Him for salvation. You will never presuppose of someone actually experiencing God. Play it off as people do not experience God but that would be a mistake.

Were you walking down the street one day and God appeard to you, explained that there is this thing called the bible and you should like totally belive in everything it says cause he wrote it ? No.:
No

You get told bible this, bible that by your fellow man you then internalize that, and next thing you know....hey God told me this.:
You hope that is what happened but you cant not comprehind God.

Something to the effect. You act as if designership is not all through our world and life. We can repeat any random thing but something that takes real craftmanship is unrepeatable other than the crafter.

Humans build cars therefore life is the result of intelligent design......next:
It is as simple as that. No need to complicate it. You witness it everyday.

You need to let it soak in that the natural world is not the same as man made objects like cars. Humans/life arn't put together the same way a car is, that's why the necessity of the car having intelligent design doesn't extend to the life....or black holes.:
Proof? Everyone that has lived has experienced that we must build for things to appear, we must use our intelligence for it to be crafted correctly. This applies to all life.

You can't prove we don't all live in the matrix either, or that aliens come to earth every now and then to rape humans.:
So you admit is was just a assertion and nothing can come from it because unprovable either way.

The point here and with all the other points is how the religious like your can make up all these assertions and demand people be open minded,:
I havent asserted nothing. You have, be serious.
well there are counter assertions and now we demand that YOU being open minded about them too.:
Umm Hmm....well when my theory involves science and matter then we will go there until then you are bound by those logics.

I didn't miss anything, you just asked a question. Your not addressing my point here. Read again.:
Look, it is wrong to punish me for something I havent done yet, even if you know I will, If I am not allowed to do that then actions that would result will not take place therefore stopping what was going to be. I must be allowed to do that, so I can be that, therefore causing whatever greater good was to come from it, and me also finding punishment for my ways.

You act as if persuasion is not used in the scientific fields or any other field for that matter. In fact the God that is taught is in fact the God that is experienced.

I'am getting real sick of your lies at this point penn. I made a point about the correlation of how people see the God they are taught by other people. This is to counter how people go around telling themselves and others about how they have had a personal revelation of God. (You know Penn like yourself right ?):
You know nothing and the fact that you have the nerve to call theist brainwashed is absurd and insulting.

Being on the receiving end of religious indoctrination isn't the same thing as God speaking to you. And if you can't make that distinction religion is going to absolutely own you.:
I am not religious actually. I dont go to church. I study myself. I agree that relgious institutions are corrupt but the Christians themselves as a whole are not. You can say that about almost any group.
There is no shortage of people and groups who are more than willing to give you religious indoctrination then try and persuade or let you believe you those beliefs are from Gods mouth to your ears.:
So if God exist then He would not speak His message to His creations?

If you want to be a slave that is a great way to go about it.:
You say that like you and others are not inslaved to just another label besides religion or Christianity.
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Pennington
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3/21/2013 6:34:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 6:04:42 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/21/2013 3:15:27 AM, Pennington wrote:
Before one should actually try and convince someone on the existence of God then we should try and overcome the problems non-believers have with Him. Any and all leave your issues with the Christian God and/or the Bible since the go hand in hand. Any ignorant comments will just be ignored by me atlas. This is a serious attempt to engage non-believers about their problems with the Christian's projected God.

Both sides minds need to be open to reality and truth or just don't post because it would be a waste of time.

My problem is the notion that God is omnibenevolent and omnipotent. An omnipotent God would have created a different world than the one we live (one with no unneeded natural suffering), and an omnipotent God, could have. Yet, we find ourselves in this world, which makes it hard to believe in an omnibenevolent/ omnipotent God.:

How do you determine that God would have or should have created differently? How can you reject that some greater good is being done by allowing these things?
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muzebreak
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3/21/2013 6:41:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 6:17:24 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/21/2013 5:57:40 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 3/21/2013 5:23:55 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/21/2013 5:08:13 AM, muzebreak wrote:
Define your god. :
God of Israel, Jesus Christ.

By define your god, I mean explain what it is. Is it a transdimensional being that lives by absorbing the love and worship of the people it creates, or is it
a bearded man with the power to destroy worlds with but a thought? I'm not saying either of those is in the slightest bit true, but what is your god exactly?:
I believe we live in a multi deminsional creation. We are on 3 deminsions but God is within 11 or more.

Ok......


Do you believe that it is possible for everyone in the universe to only choose good things of their own free will?:
No

As I asked directly below, why not?

If not, then why? If so, then why wouldn't god create a world in which they did?:
I believe you can choose good by your own will but we also dont because of our own will.

It seems to me there is a contradiction here. You say that it is not possible for everyone to make the choice to do good. Then you say something with the consequence of its truth being that everyone can do good, they just don't. Which is it? Can everyone do only good, but they just choose not to, or is it not possible?


Then how do you explain the fact that we can see stars that are billions of light years away?:
Because they were created to for signs, years and seasons, hence they needed to be seen and was created to be seen.

God couldn't have created signs that didn't denote a universe that was much older then it actually is? And why are they necesarry for years and seasons?

And why is it that one of our chromosomes have a telomere in the middle, when the only way for that to happen is for two chromosomes to combine, which is exactly what would have happend if we were evolved from a common ancestor with apes?:
So that is the only reason that would have happened?

The only way there could be a telomere in the middle of our chromosome is if we evolved, or if god put it there. No, it does not necessarily denote common ancestry with apes, but it does denote either evolution or purposeful deceit.


What are the standards for getting in to heaven?:
Simply having faith in Him and seeking His salvation.

Why are those the standards? And why would he create standards, which make it so that countless people will go to hell purely because of the way they are raised?


Do you believe that existence in hell is endless?:
It says it is eternal but it also says it will end. This seems to contradict but not if hell is simply outside any concept of God, their own place you may say. It last forever because everything is eternal but eventually it would be without God completely therefore coming to a end to God and heaven.

You aren't making any sense.


Do you believe in the inerranncy of biblical scripture?:
Depending on which Bible you use.

Whichever bible you want.:
The original Hebrew and Greek texts. If not then the KJV.

Are you a biblical literalist, as in do you believe genesis is a literal account of gods creation of the universe?:
I am a literalist.

Do you trust any scientific facts, or do you believe the bible supercedes all of them?:
I believe the scriptures should supercede any unproven fact. I understand that science thinks they proven things against the Bible and it shouldnt be ignored. I trust many scientific facts.

Lets say there is a scientific fact, one the is as evidenced as a fact can be in science, and it contradicts something in the bible. Which would you believe?



Do you believe in a young earth,:
Yes.

Why?:
Because we have evidence for it. Mainly because the Bible says so.

Where does the bible say so?


and if you do, do you believe that your god might create it in a manner that it might look older then it is?:
Yes to a extent.

What extent would that be?:
Like the stars, it would seem old but it is not. But that was needed for their purpose.

What purpose is there for ice core samples to appear as though they were lain over millions of years?



Do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve 6-10,000 years ago, and that they did partake of the fruit resulting in original sin?:
Yes

Why would god create a situation, which he knew would end in original sin?:
Because it is more important to God that you trust Him and His Law. Adam and Eve didnt.

Yes, and god knew they wouldn't. But why punish all perceding humanity for something that he knew was going to happen, and not only allowed but made come to fruition?



Do you believe that the bible is an accurate historical account,:
Yes
and if so, would you accept other records that are affirmed in their historicity as superseding the bible if they showed differences in their record of history?:
No the Biblical account supersedes all others.

Why?:
Because re limited to us not knowing our past clearly enough to make those decisions. The Bible has a story that gives us all those answers and with its age and language translations it is still extremely accurate even if it had errors. Just look at the errors people bring up, they are weak, more of interpretation or language errors.

But we have documents that have not been translated, and re translated, and translated again, that are from the same time period. We also have the originals of some such documents. What is it about the bible, that makes it supercede these documents, that have been better preserved?



What is your standard for discerning the bible is true, as in 'beyond reasonable doubt', or do you accept it on faith?:
I research it, I try to find evidence it is incorrect, but it is all circumstantial. I do accept that my God has reserved His word on faith but really there are endless accounts in the Bible that have been proven true.

But you just said that you believe the biblical historicity supercedes all other accounts?:
Yes
So how is it that you have tried to find evidence of falsities, if you automatically dismiss all contrary evidence?:
I do not dismiss it. I just believe the Bible more. The Bible itself tells you to seek and find evidence for my faith.

Yes, ok, it tells you to find the evidence. But what happens when you come across some evidence that disagrees with the biblical account? Would you simply throw away this evidence, because your bible is superior?

Another question; Do you believe that god is supremly merciful and just?
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
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3/21/2013 7:15:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 6:41:52 AM, muzebreak wrote:

Do you believe that it is possible for everyone in the universe to only choose good things of their own free will?:
No

As I asked directly below, why not?:
I know I answered below were you asked.

If not, then why? If so, then why wouldn't god create a world in which they did?:
I believe you can choose good by your own will but we also dont because of our own will.:

It seems to me there is a contradiction here. You say that it is not possible for everyone to make the choice to do good. Then you say something with the consequence of its truth being that everyone can do good, they just don't. Which is it? Can everyone do only good, but they just choose not to, or is it not possible?:
It is not possible for anyone to do good overall before or after you find God but you can by each decision choose to do good.

God couldn't have created signs that didn't denote a universe that was much older then it actually is?:
Well stars also represent angels so I think they are pretty much tied. I makes sense that they would be closer to do God influencing.
And why are they necesarry for years and seasons?:
Galatic years and seasons.

And why is it that one of our chromosomes have a telomere in the middle, when the only way for that to happen is for two chromosomes to combine, which is exactly what would have happend if we were evolved from a common ancestor with apes?:
So that is the only reason that would have happened?

The only way there could be a telomere in the middle of our chromosome is if we evolved, or if god put it there.:
Well you say evolve and I say God.
No, it does not necessarily denote common ancestry with apes, but it does denote either evolution or purposeful deceit.:
Purposeful deciet because science and man chooses to believe that things oughta look or be a certain way when even you have to admit we are youngins here. Kinda sounds like kids too.

Why are those the standards? :
Because God set them.
And why would he create standards,:
Because creations want to be evil and he can not allow evil in his presence.
which make it so that countless people will go to hell purely because of the way they are raised?:
Wait do not people change beliefs or go opposite what they have been raised?


Do you believe that existence in hell is endless?:
It says it is eternal but it also says it will end. This seems to contradict but not if hell is simply outside any concept of God, their own place you may say. It last forever because everything is eternal but eventually it would be without God completely therefore coming to a end to God and heaven.

You aren't making any sense.:
Hell is eternal. Though when you are in hell you will be without God and outside of His love and being. Once that happens you are in eternal torment forever but are no longer thought about in heaven or to God. That was the choice people made, to live without God forever.

I believe the scriptures should supercede any unproven fact. I understand that science thinks they proven things against the Bible and it shouldnt be ignored. I trust many scientific facts.

Lets say there is a scientific fact, one the is as evidenced as a fact can be in science, and it contradicts something in the bible. Which would you believe?:
No, thats a loaded question. Where is that fact?



Where does the bible say so?:
6 days of creation. Do I think or know if the matter that makes our earth was created in 6k years then no, I think it has been around forever, but the current earth we have is young.


What purpose is there for ice core samples to appear as though they were lain over millions of years?:
How does it appear that way? Scientific techniques that havent a clue about that ice core a thousand years ago, or longer? That kinda makes me put that info in the back burner.

Why would god create a situation, which he knew would end in original sin?:
Because it is more important to God that you trust Him and His Law. Adam and Eve didnt.

Yes, and god knew they wouldn't. But why punish all perceding humanity for something that he knew was going to happen, and not only allowed but made come to fruition?:
He made it happen? How?
How is God punishing us? Dont we punish ourselves?

But we have documents that have not been translated, and re translated, and translated again, that are from the same time period. We also have the originals of some such documents. What is it about the bible, that makes it supercede these documents, that have been better preserved?:
95% of historians would disagree, the Bible is the most well preserved document. What are these documents?

Yes, ok, it tells you to find the evidence. But what happens when you come across some evidence that disagrees with the biblical account?:
I look harder. I certainly am not trying to make the Bible wrong.
Would you simply throw away this evidence, because your bible is superior?:
No, I would lood harder. I havent found it yet though.

Another question; Do you believe that god is supremly merciful and just?:
He is.
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Illegalcombatant
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3/21/2013 7:18:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 6:32:50 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/21/2013 6:04:23 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:

I doubt it. Have a look at the history of you life, at what point did God tell you the bible is the word of God ? BEFORE or AFTER you were told by MEN ?:
I was saved when I was 8 so I had never been really witnessed too. I went to church but never payed attention until I had a sudden feeling too. I felt like I needed to believe God and ask Him for salvation. You will never presuppose of someone actually experiencing God. Play it off as people do not experience God but that would be a mistake.


Were you walking down the street one day and God appeard to you, explained that there is this thing called the bible and you should like totally belive in everything it says cause he wrote it ? No.:
No

You get told bible this, bible that by your fellow man you then internalize that, and next thing you know....hey God told me this.:
You hope that is what happened but you cant not comprehind God.

Don't get angry at me cause I point out the obvious, God didn't tell you these things man did.


Something to the effect. You act as if designership is not all through our world and life. We can repeat any random thing but something that takes real craftmanship is unrepeatable other than the crafter.

Humans build cars therefore life is the result of intelligent design......next:
It is as simple as that. No need to complicate it. You witness it everyday.

You need to let it soak in that the natural world is not the same as man made objects like cars. Humans/life arn't put together the same way a car is, that's why the necessity of the car having intelligent design doesn't extend to the life....or black holes.:
Proof? Everyone that has lived has experienced that we must build for things to appear, we must use our intelligence for it to be crafted correctly. This applies to all life.

No, see you did it again, your transfer facts about human made objects to non man made objects. Stop that.


You can't prove we don't all live in the matrix either, or that aliens come to earth every now and then to rape humans.:
So you admit is was just a assertion and nothing can come from it because unprovable either way.

The point here and with all the other points is how the religious like your can make up all these assertions and demand people be open minded,:
I havent asserted nothing. You have, be serious.
well there are counter assertions and now we demand that YOU being open minded about them too.:
Umm Hmm....well when my theory involves science and matter then we will go there until then you are bound by those logics.

You mean the science that humans have to build cars therefore humans must be intelligently designed too ? right........


I didn't miss anything, you just asked a question. Your not addressing my point here. Read again.:
Look, it is wrong to punish me for something I havent done yet, even if you know I will, If I am not allowed to do that then actions that would result will not take place therefore stopping what was going to be. I must be allowed to do that, so I can be that, therefore causing whatever greater good was to come from it, and me also finding punishment for my ways.

So once again, God has to allow child torture otherwise the child torturer won't be able to torture the child and then God won't be able to punish the child torturer, oh and God has to allow the child torture to get a greaty good from it ?

Right..........that's possible.

You know what else is possible, its all complete bullsh*t. How about you be open minded to that eh ? how about you be open minded that these are just rationalizations eh ?


You act as if persuasion is not used in the scientific fields or any other field for that matter. In fact the God that is taught is in fact the God that is experienced.

I'am getting real sick of your lies at this point penn. I made a point about the correlation of how people see the God they are taught by other people. This is to counter how people go around telling themselves and others about how they have had a personal revelation of God. (You know Penn like yourself right ?):
You know nothing and the fact that you have the nerve to call theist brainwashed is absurd and insulting.

Being on the receiving end of religious indoctrination isn't the same thing as God speaking to you. And if you can't make that distinction religion is going to absolutely own you.:
I am not religious actually. I dont go to church. I study myself. I agree that relgious institutions are corrupt but the Christians themselves as a whole are not. You can say that about almost any group.

There is no shortage of people and groups who are more than willing to give you religious indoctrination then try and persuade or let you believe you those beliefs are from Gods mouth to your ears.:
So if God exist then He would not speak His message to His creations?

Then he should speak for himself, cause you know, humans have this bad habit of speaking for him. But we have to listen time and time again from HUMANS, God said this God said that,........LOOK !!! I got a book.

Give me a f*cking break.


If you want to be a slave that is a great way to go about it.:
You say that like you and others are not inslaved to just another label besides religion or Christianity.

One slavery issue at a time. How about next time a HUMAN says or has written God this and God that, you think to yourself, hang on, just because a HUMAN said it does not equal therefore God said it.

NO EXEMPTIONS.

Apply some skepticism to your own religious beliefs.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
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3/21/2013 7:45:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 7:18:23 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:

Don't get angry at me cause I point out the obvious, God didn't tell you these things man did.:
I'm not mad your tittering on just calling me looney tunes and the fact is any medical doctor wouldn't, so who looks crazy? You flatout deny anything your told if it is not within your framework. I dont expect you to belief it off hand but atleast be serious about it. I can just as well call you crazy for listening to scientist and secular research because it is current. Current doesn't mean the best. If we was finding day to day things then science shows factual results but when you include that into long ages then you have a problem and thats a fact.

You need to let it soak in that the natural world is not the same as man made objects like cars.:
Yes it is even more complex and beautiful.
Humans/life arn't put together the same way a car is, that's why the necessity of the car having intelligent design doesn't extend to the life....or black holes.:
Proof? Everyone that has lived has experienced that we must build for things to appear, we must use our intelligence for it to be crafted correctly. This applies to all life.

No, see you did it again, your transfer facts about human made objects to non man made objects. Stop that.:
Just asking what created them? How did they come about originally?



Umm Hmm....well when my theory involves science and matter then we will go there until then you are bound by those logics.

You mean the science that humans have to build cars therefore humans must be intelligently designed too ? right........:
That was a example and simple enough. I am sure there are more proper ones out there. Its hard to talk to someone who is endlessly confident in long count macroevolution.



I didn't miss anything, you just asked a question. Your not addressing my point here. Read again.:
Look, it is wrong to punish me for something I havent done yet, even if you know I will, If I am not allowed to do that then actions that would result will not take place therefore stopping what was going to be. I must be allowed to do that, so I can be that, therefore causing whatever greater good was to come from it, and me also finding punishment for my ways.

So once again, God has to allow child torture otherwise the child torturer won't be able to torture the child and then God won't be able to punish the child torturer, oh and God has to allow the child torture to get a greaty good from it ?:
No, if someone gets raped, im sure it is bad then. But later, that experience can make a positive in their life. It can put that convict in a place to change and find God. Cause all is wanted. That girls family and friends could learn something and come closer to God. Anything good could happen from it therefore making it allowable. I would think that if anyone in the situation finds God and salvation or does some great act from that experience then it was worth it to God. That girl will go on. I hate rape too, when I watch these movies lately that has women being raped, i have nightmares and thoughts of harming them.

Right?:
I think about it being all wrong all the time but not seriously but because I read so much atheist and scientific stuff. The only reason I stay Christian is, The Bible and its accuracy and my personnel relationship with God. Thats the factor you can not get, I understand you have not experienced God and I have.

Then he should speak for himself, cause you know, humans have this bad habit of speaking for him. But we have to listen time and time again from HUMANS, God said this God said that,........LOOK !!! I got a book.:
Use it. God will clearly tell you what you should do.

Give me a f*cking break.:
Trust me, soon there will be one religion and not Christianity.

One slavery issue at a time. How about next time a HUMAN says or has written God this and God that, you think to yourself, hang on, just because a HUMAN said it does not equal therefore God said it.:
Very true. I havent said God said anything unless it is in the Bible. I admit though I have God, I am no Biblical prophet.

NO EXEMPTIONS.

Apply some skepticism to your own religious beliefs.:
Why would someone do that if they have experienced God work in their lives? Why would they if they know God personally?

It isnt as if I do not sin. I sin daily, I am just as bad a person as anyone else but I feel it in my heart because of God. I feel ashmed of myself because of God but then again I feel rejoiced everyday because I have God and life is good.
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3/21/2013 7:53:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 7:15:09 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/21/2013 6:41:52 AM, muzebreak wrote:

Do you believe that it is possible for everyone in the universe to only choose good things of their own free will?:
No

As I asked directly below, why not?:
I know I answered below were you asked.

No, you made a contradictiary statement.


If not, then why? If so, then why wouldn't god create a world in which they did?:
I believe you can choose good by your own will but we also dont because of our own will.:

It seems to me there is a contradiction here. You say that it is not possible for everyone to make the choice to do good. Then you say something with the consequence of its truth being that everyone can do good, they just don't. Which is it? Can everyone do only good, but they just choose not to, or is it not possible?:
It is not possible for anyone to do good overall before or after you find God but you can by each decision choose to do good.

That makes absolutely no sense, so I am going to start this over again with yes or no questions

Yes or no; does free will exist?


God couldn't have created signs that didn't denote a universe that was much older then it actually is?:
Well stars also represent angels so I think they are pretty much tied. I makes sense that they would be closer to do God influencing.
And why are they necesarry for years and seasons?:
Galatic years and seasons.

Why is it required for a galactic year, and what is a galactic season?


And why is it that one of our chromosomes have a telomere in the middle, when the only way for that to happen is for two chromosomes to combine, which is exactly what would have happend if we were evolved from a common ancestor with apes?:
So that is the only reason that would have happened?

The only way there could be a telomere in the middle of our chromosome is if we evolved, or if god put it there.:
Well you say evolve and I say God.

No, I say evolve or god. You make an indeterminate statement.

No, it does not necessarily denote common ancestry with apes, but it does denote either evolution or purposeful deceit.:
Purposeful deciet because science and man chooses to believe that things oughta look or be a certain way when even you have to admit we are youngins here. Kinda sounds like kids too.

Did you just admit that it is put there to deceive?


Why are those the standards? :
Because God set them.

Why would he make them as such?

And why would he create standards,:
Because creations want to be evil and he can not allow evil in his presence.

So an evil person is someone who does not follow those two standards?

which make it so that countless people will go to hell purely because of the way they are raised?:
Wait do not people change beliefs or go opposite what they have been raised?

Yes, yes they do. But some people don't have that oppurtunity. They know nothing but the small society or tribe that they grew up in.



Do you believe that existence in hell is endless?:
It says it is eternal but it also says it will end. This seems to contradict but not if hell is simply outside any concept of God, their own place you may say. It last forever because everything is eternal but eventually it would be without God completely therefore coming to a end to God and heaven.

You aren't making any sense.:
Hell is eternal. Though when you are in hell you will be without God and outside of His love and being. Once that happens you are in eternal torment forever but are no longer thought about in heaven or to God. That was the choice people made, to live without God forever.

Ok, so you agree that hell is eternal. What is the justification for infinite punishment for finite crime?


I believe the scriptures should supercede any unproven fact. I understand that science thinks they proven things against the Bible and it shouldnt be ignored. I trust many scientific facts.

Lets say there is a scientific fact, one the is as evidenced as a fact can be in science, and it contradicts something in the bible. Which would you believe?:
No, thats a loaded question. Where is that fact?

No, a loaded question would be if I said 'how long have you know god doesn't exist?' My question is not loaded with an assumed premise, I do not assert that such a fact exists. I just want to know what you would do if such a fact did exist.




Where does the bible say so?:
6 days of creation. Do I think or know if the matter that makes our earth was created in 6k years then no, I think it has been around forever, but the current earth we have is young.

So, the bible does not say that the earth is young?



What purpose is there for ice core samples to appear as though they were lain over millions of years?:
How does it appear that way? Scientific techniques that havent a clue about that ice core a thousand years ago, or longer? That kinda makes me put that info in the back burner.

Do you understand the premise of ice core dating?


Why would god create a situation, which he knew would end in original sin?:
Because it is more important to God that you trust Him and His Law. Adam and Eve didnt.

Yes, and god knew they wouldn't. But why punish all perceding humanity for something that he knew was going to happen, and not only allowed but made come to fruition?:
He made it happen? How?

He made Adam and Eve, knowing what they might do, then put the in the perfect situtation to do it. He could have put them elsewhere, where the tree wasn't. Or not allowed the snake to convince them. But he didn't, therefore he made it happen. He created the circumstances for it, then allowed the events to play out.

How is God punishing us? Dont we punish ourselves?

Wasn't original sin bestowed upon all mankind as punishment? Wasn't eve and all other women after her punished with things like the pain of childbirth? Haven't you read the biblical account of Adam and Eve?


But we have documents that have not been translated, and re translated, and translated again, that are from the same time period. We also have the originals of some such documents. What is it about the bible, that makes it supercede these documents, that have been better preserved?:
95% of historians would disagree, the Bible is the most well preserved document.

Give me an example of some secular historian who would say this.

What are these documents?

Tacitus' Annals and Histories, for example. Annals contains the earliest non christian reference to christ.


Yes, ok, it tells you to find the evidence. But what happens when you come across some evidence that disagrees with the biblical account?:
I look harder. I certainly am not trying to make the Bible wrong.
Would you simply throw away this evidence, because your bible is superior?:
No, I would lood harder. I havent found it yet though.

But what if you looked as hard as you could, and still the evidence you found contradicted the bible, what then?


Another question; Do you believe that god is supremly merciful and just?:
He is.

How can one be both supremly merciful, and supremly just? They are exact opposites. Either he is merciful to forgive a criminal his crimes, or he will bestow upon him ultimate justice. Which one is it? You can't have both.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Pennington
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3/21/2013 8:26:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 7:53:15 AM, muzebreak wrote:

That makes absolutely no sense, so I am going to start this over again with yes or no questions:
Too you.

Yes or no; does free will exist?:
Free-will does exist.


God couldn't have created signs that didn't denote a universe that was much older then it actually is?:
Well stars also represent angels so I think they are pretty much tied. I makes sense that they would be closer to do God influencing.
And why are they necesarry for years and seasons?:
Galatic years and seasons.

Why is it required for a galactic year, and what is a galactic season?:
I have no idea what it is, time wise. Like we are under time clock through our universe, there is a greater time clock beyond ours.

No, I say evolve or god. You make an indeterminate statement.:
Very good.

No, it does not necessarily denote common ancestry with apes, but it does denote either evolution or purposeful deceit.:
Purposeful deciet because science and man chooses to believe that things oughta look or be a certain way when even you have to admit we are youngins here. Kinda sounds like kids too.

Did you just admit that it is put there to deceive?:
No.


Why are those the standards? :
Because God set them.

Why would he make them as such?:
I'm guessing because thats what was needed to form creation the way He wanted.

And why would he create standards,:
Because creations want to be evil and he can not allow evil in his presence.

So an evil person is someone who does not follow those two standards?:
I didn't say that. I doubt many has ever stood up to those standards. We all have a log in our eye.

which make it so that countless people will go to hell purely because of the way they are raised?:
Wait do not people change beliefs or go opposite what they have been raised?

Yes, yes they do. But some people don't have that oppurtunity. They know nothing but the small society or tribe that they grew up in.:
I dont not know how that works.


Ok, so you agree that hell is eternal. What is the justification for infinite punishment for finite crime?:
Because your finite life shows your real self and that self decides if you are worthy of God's kingdom.


No, a loaded question would be if I said 'how long have you know god doesn't exist?' My question is not loaded with an assumed premise, I do not assert that such a fact exists. I just want to know what you would do if such a fact did exist.:
Question both.

So, the bible does not say that the earth is young?:
Yes I just said yes, six days of creation no doubt describes our 6 days.

Do you understand the premise of ice core dating?:
Not that much.

Yes, and god knew they wouldn't. But why punish all perceding humanity for something that he knew was going to happen, and not only allowed but made come to fruition?:
He made it happen? How?

He made Adam and Eve, knowing what they might do, then put the in the perfect situtation to do it. He could have put them elsewhere, where the tree wasn't. Or not allowed the snake to convince them. But he didn't, therefore he made it happen. He created the circumstances for it, then allowed the events to play out.:
Because God wants you to choose Him and His Word freely. He must allow you to choose against Him or it is not really a real choice. This argument is like a kid who blames others for doing wrong when they were told not too. Would that excuse fly with you?

How is God punishing us? Dont we punish ourselves?

Wasn't original sin bestowed upon all mankind as punishment?:
Wasn't eve and all other women after her punished with things like the pain of childbirth? Haven't you read the biblical account of Adam and Eve?:
God did not really bestow sin on us, we sinned while with Him, on our own free will. Adam and Eve where in eternity(Eden), no death, but when they sinned they could not be in God's eternity any longer and they were submitted to flesh which dies. Did not God say thou shalt die?

But we have documents that have not been translated, and re translated, and translated again, that are from the same time period. We also have the originals of some such documents. What is it about the bible, that makes it supercede these documents, that have been better preserved?:
95% of historians would disagree, the Bible is the most well preserved document.

Give me an example of some secular historian who would say this.:
http://www.leaderu.com...
http://www.susancanthony.com...
http://www.equip.org...

What are these documents?

Tacitus' Annals and Histories, for example. Annals contains the earliest non christian reference to christ.:
Setting the Bible aside for a moment, by far the best-attested document of Graeco-Roman times was Homer's Illiad. http://life.liegeman.org...

But what if you looked as hard as you could, and still the evidence you found contradicted the bible, what then?:
I would search other Bibles. If it came down too no matter what it shows the Bible wrong then I would have to pray about that long and hard. Though I believe the Bible is error free, it is God that I believe.

How can one be both supremly merciful, and supremly just?:
Because He is just against the wicked and he give all even them many times to do wrong. He shows mercy many times on the wicked and nonwicked alike.
They are exact opposites. Either he is merciful to forgive a criminal his crimes, or he will bestow upon him ultimate justice. Which one is it? You can't have both.:
Yes you can. Is it not very merciful to forgive a convict many times and allowing him to go and then on your bad day when judgement is in your mind and he sees you there he gives you the max, Wasn't he just and merciful?
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PureX
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3/21/2013 9:01:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
There seems to be some confusion here about what constitutes a "Christian God". And that is understandable, because there is no singular ideal. It's important to note that:

Many Christians do not believe that "God wrote the Bible" via the magical manipulation of human hands or minds.

Many Christians do not believe that the Bible was ever intended to be taken as literal fact, but is rather a collection of songs, poems, stories, allegories, metaphors and parables intended to invite humanity to contemplate the concept of "God" and man's relation to it.

Many Christians do not believe that God controls, or should control the conditions and circumstances of this world or the people in it.

Many Christians understand that Christianity is not about what religious doctrine one believes, but who one becomes by how they behave toward themselves, others, and the world.

Most of the arguments I see and hear against Christianity are really just arguments against a very narrow and dogmatic interpretation and representation of God and Christ. Most of which I would object to myself, even as a Christian.
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3/21/2013 9:10:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 9:01:37 AM, PureX wrote:
There seems to be some confusion here about what constitutes a "Christian God".:
What institutes a Christian God to you?
And that is understandable, because there is no singular ideal. It's important to note that:

Many Christians do not believe that "God wrote the Bible" via the magical manipulation of human hands or minds.:
No inspiration?

Many Christians do not believe that the Bible was ever intended to be taken as literal fact, but is rather a collection of songs, poems, stories, allegories, metaphors and parables intended to invite humanity to contemplate the concept of "God" and man's relation to it.:
I would disagree mostly and agree in part.

Many Christians do not believe that God controls, or should control the conditions and circumstances of this world or the people in it.:
The scriptures tell different.

Many Christians understand that Christianity is not about what religious doctrine one believes, but who one becomes by how they behave toward themselves, others, and the world.:
And how they behave with God.

Most of the arguments I see and hear against Christianity are really just arguments against a very narrow and dogmatic interpretation and representation of God and Christ. Most of which I would object to myself, even as a Christian.:
I see. As?
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popculturepooka
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3/21/2013 9:22:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 9:01:37 AM, PureX wrote:
There seems to be some confusion here about what constitutes a "Christian God". And that is understandable, because there is no singular ideal. It's important to note that:

Many Christians do not believe that "God wrote the Bible" via the magical manipulation of human hands or minds.

Many Christians do not believe that the Bible was ever intended to be taken as literal fact, but is rather a collection of songs, poems, stories, allegories, metaphors and
parables intended to invite humanity to contemplate the concept of "God" and man's relation to it.

Many Christians do not believe that God controls, or should control the conditions and circumstances of this world or the people in it.

Many Christians understand that Christianity is not about what religious doctrine one believes, but who one becomes by how they behave toward themselves, others, and the world.

Most of the arguments I see and hear against Christianity are really just arguments against a very narrow and dogmatic interpretation and representation of God and Christ. Most of which I would object to myself, even as a Christian.

True story, brah. Don't agree with everything here but it's usually against a very fundamentalistic, hyper conservative version of Christianity. That's understandable considering the fact that that group tends to be the most vocal and brand themselves as "true Christians" (every other so called "christian" is clearly a liberal heretic bent on bending to the "spirit if the age"), but still...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Magic8000
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3/21/2013 10:08:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
My biggest problem

1 Samuel 15:3

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and a$$.

I often hear that it was better for the children to die because they would goto heaven. I can't believe someone would state such thing! When is there a good reason to kill a baby? If you take his route, what's immoral about murdering the babies of secular parents? Also, is abortion wrong?
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
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3/21/2013 10:15:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 10:08:51 AM, Magic8000 wrote:
My biggest problem

1 Samuel 15:3

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and a$$.

I often hear that it was better for the children to die because they would goto heaven. I can't believe someone would state such thing! When is there a good reason to kill a baby? If you take his route, what's immoral about murdering the babies of secular parents? Also, is abortion wrong?:

Going by the Bible, Amalek was a giant, his people were giants, God didnt want giants because it would tant the Messiah bloodline, samething for the flood. They killed them to rid that bloodline and to rid them you must kill them all. Thisnis the reason to kill babies. Abortion is muder and thereofre wrong. If we have to talk about a baby or about aborting it then that simply shows it exist.
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Magic8000
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3/21/2013 10:21:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 10:15:44 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/21/2013 10:08:51 AM, Magic8000 wrote:
My biggest problem

1 Samuel 15:3

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and a$$.

I often hear that it was better for the children to die because they would goto heaven. I can't believe someone would state such thing! When is there a good reason to kill a baby? If you take his route, what's immoral about murdering the babies of secular parents? Also, is abortion wrong?:

Going by the Bible, Amalek was a giant, his people were giants, God didnt want giants because it would tant the Messiah bloodline, samething for the flood. They killed them to rid that bloodline and to rid them you must kill them all. Thisnis the reason to kill babies. Abortion is muder and thereofre wrong. If we have to talk about a baby or about aborting it then that simply shows it exist.

So, it's OK to kill children if they're too big and will hurt a bloodline? Sounds like Eugenics. How would they hurt the bloodline in any way? Especially if they raised them? Isn't the killing of the Amalek infants also murder? Or is it jut murder if God says it is?

Is there any actual evidence that proves the Amaleks were giants?
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
popculturepooka
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3/21/2013 10:23:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 10:15:44 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/21/2013 10:08:51 AM, Magic8000 wrote:
My biggest problem

1 Samuel 15:3

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and a$$.

I often hear that it was better for the children to die because they would goto heaven. I can't believe someone would state such thing! When is there a good reason to kill a baby? If you take his route, what's immoral about murdering the babies of secular parents? Also, is abortion wrong?:

Going by the Bible, Amalek was a giant, his people were giants, God didnt want giants because it would tant the Messiah bloodline, samething for the flood. They killed them to rid that bloodline and to rid them you must kill them all. Thisnis the reason to kill babies. Abortion is muder and thereofre wrong. If we have to talk about a baby or about aborting it then that simply shows it exist.

Apologia.for genocide.... smh
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Pennington
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3/21/2013 10:29:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 10:21:09 AM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 3/21/2013 10:15:44 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/21/2013 10:08:51 AM, Magic8000 wrote:
My biggest problem

1 Samuel 15:3

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and a$$.

I often hear that it was better for the children to die because they would goto heaven. I can't believe someone would state such thing! When is there a good reason to kill a baby? If you take his route, what's immoral about murdering the babies of secular parents? Also, is abortion wrong?:

Going by the Bible, Amalek was a giant, his people were giants, God didnt want giants because it would tant the Messiah bloodline, samething for the flood. They killed them to rid that bloodline and to rid them you must kill them all. Thisnis the reason to kill babies. Abortion is muder and thereofre wrong. If we have to talk about a baby or about aborting it then that simply shows it exist.

So, it's OK to kill children if they're too big and will hurt a bloodline? Sounds like Eugenics. How would they hurt the bloodline in any way? Especially if they raised them? Isn't the killing of the Amalek infants also murder? Or is it jut murder if God says it is?:
They were not just too big they came from angels(sons of God). Fallen ones who wanted soak their seed in the promised land to mix so the Messiah could not come.

Is there any actual evidence that proves the Amaleks were giants?:
The Bible.
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Pennington
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3/21/2013 10:31:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 10:23:23 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/21/2013 10:15:44 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/21/2013 10:08:51 AM, Magic8000 wrote:
My biggest problem

1 Samuel 15:3

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and a$$.

I often hear that it was better for the children to die because they would goto heaven. I can't believe someone would state such thing! When is there a good reason to kill a baby? If you take his route, what's immoral about murdering the babies of secular parents? Also, is abortion wrong?:

Going by the Bible, Amalek was a giant, his people were giants, God didnt want giants because it would tant the Messiah bloodline, samething for the flood. They killed them to rid that bloodline and to rid them you must kill them all. Thisnis the reason to kill babies. Abortion is muder and thereofre wrong. If we have to talk about a baby or about aborting it then that simply shows it exist.

Apologia.for genocide.... smh:
Read your Bible? Sons of God and daughters of men, giants. It was not genecide, it was a corrupt bloodline to begin with they were not intended. They were children of angels throughout of heaven. Having pity on them, SMH.
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Magic8000
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3/21/2013 10:33:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 10:29:32 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/21/2013 10:21:09 AM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 3/21/2013 10:15:44 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/21/2013 10:08:51 AM, Magic8000 wrote:
My biggest problem

1 Samuel 15:3

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and a$$.

I often hear that it was better for the children to die because they would goto heaven. I can't believe someone would state such thing! When is there a good reason to kill a baby? If you take his route, what's immoral about murdering the babies of secular parents? Also, is abortion wrong?:

Going by the Bible, Amalek was a giant, his people were giants, God didnt want giants because it would tant the Messiah bloodline, samething for the flood. They killed them to rid that bloodline and to rid them you must kill them all. Thisnis the reason to kill babies. Abortion is muder and thereofre wrong. If we have to talk about a baby or about aborting it then that simply shows it exist.

So, it's OK to kill children if they're too big and will hurt a bloodline? Sounds like Eugenics. How would they hurt the bloodline in any way? Especially if they raised them? Isn't the killing of the Amalek infants also murder? Or is it jut murder if God says it is?:
They were not just too big they came from angels(sons of God). Fallen ones who wanted soak their seed in the promised land to mix so the Messiah could not come.

Is there any actual evidence that proves the Amaleks were giants?:
The Bible.

I'm asking what actually proves the bible on this? You ignored almost everything else
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
Pennington
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3/21/2013 10:35:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/21/2013 10:33:08 AM, Magic8000 wrote:

So, it's OK to kill children if they're too big and will hurt a bloodline? Sounds like Eugenics. How would they hurt the bloodline in any way? Especially if they raised them? Isn't the killing of the Amalek infants also murder? Or is it jut murder if God says it is?:
They were not just too big they came from angels(sons of God). Fallen ones who wanted soak their seed in the promised land to mix so the Messiah could not come.

Is there any actual evidence that proves the Amaleks were giants?:
The Bible.

I'm asking what actually proves the bible on this? You ignored almost everything else:
I did not say there was proof, the Bible simply says this was the cause in words. I also reposted my comment that you missed.
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