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What Difference does God Make?

tarkovsky
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3/24/2013 10:42:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Does anyone else take the 'I don't care' position? It's a lot like the problem of free will: whether or not we happen to be free, volitional agents is sort of irrelevant. Everything I do will seem volitional and knowledge that my actions are deterministic doesn't change that. I proceed as though my actions were determined only by me and the rest is irrelevant. So it is with God. Knowing that God exists doesn't change my life in any way. Knowledge of God's existence doesn't mean I accomplish my goals or that I'll be a happier person. I'm still going to suffer and rejoice whether there was or there wasn't. It's irrelevant.
phantom
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3/24/2013 10:47:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
It may decide whether you burn in hell for eternity or not.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
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3/24/2013 10:48:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
And yeah, that God would be a real sh!t, but personally, that wouldn't stop me from worshiping him as long as I escaped hell.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
tarkovsky
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3/24/2013 10:49:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 10:47:56 AM, phantom wrote:
It may decide whether you burn in hell for eternity or not.

That eventuality is precluded in that I don't have to have faith. If I know God exists then the notion of faith in God is absurd. I'd just know he was there.
cybertron1998
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3/24/2013 10:54:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
oh so your like me. you know that there is a god there, but your not up for the whole "have faith or you will burn in hell thing
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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3/24/2013 10:59:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
A little bit.

But I actually consider the idea of God worth talking about, since it's a source of conflict and contemplates deep philosophical ideas.
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cybertron1998
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3/24/2013 11:00:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 10:59:14 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
A little bit.

But I actually consider the idea of God worth talking about, since it's a source of conflict and contemplates deep philosophical ideas.

Are you answering me?
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
phantom
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3/24/2013 11:03:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 10:49:11 AM, tarkovsky wrote:
At 3/24/2013 10:47:56 AM, phantom wrote:
It may decide whether you burn in hell for eternity or not.

That eventuality is precluded in that I don't have to have faith. If I know God exists then the notion of faith in God is absurd. I'd just know he was there.

Wait, are you a theist? I can't tell. But anyways, my post definitely applies to any atheist.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/24/2013 11:07:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 10:47:56 AM, phantom wrote:
It may decide whether you burn in hell for eternity or not.

It may, but if I go outside I may get run over by a giant Indiana Jones type rolling stone and die. Anything, technically could happen, but you don't base your life off it unless there is good reason to.
AlbinoBunny
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3/24/2013 11:08:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 11:00:57 AM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 3/24/2013 10:59:14 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
A little bit.

But I actually consider the idea of God worth talking about, since it's a source of conflict and contemplates deep philosophical ideas.

Are you answering me?

The OP?
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tarkovsky
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3/24/2013 11:10:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 10:47:56 AM, phantom wrote:
It may decide whether you burn in hell for eternity or not.

Okay okay. Well. I suppose.. there is that. I don't worry that, upon my death, I'll be consigned to walls of flame but I worry about being a good person and not because I don't want to go to hell. In fact, I worry about being a moral person because I'm empathetic and goodness of character is meaningful to me. If I was a sociopath I probably wouldn't care, but I'm not so I do and it's as arbitrary as that.

I guess I'm asking if there is anyone else who isn't particularly threatened by the notion of hell. I'm not saying it's logically absurd or anything. I'm just saying I'm not worried about going to hell and it's not something that prompts me to worry and care about the existence of God.
phantom
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3/24/2013 11:15:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 11:07:57 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/24/2013 10:47:56 AM, phantom wrote:
It may decide whether you burn in hell for eternity or not.

It may, but if I go outside I may get run over by a giant Indiana Jones type rolling stone and die. Anything, technically could happen, but you don't base your life off it unless there is good reason to.

Yes it's unlikely, but I was under the assumption that he meant the actuality of God's existence, not the possibility or plausibility. God actually existing can make a huge difference. I wasn't saying the possibility of him existing.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
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3/24/2013 11:17:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 11:10:03 AM, tarkovsky wrote:
At 3/24/2013 10:47:56 AM, phantom wrote:
It may decide whether you burn in hell for eternity or not.

Okay okay. Well. I suppose.. there is that. I don't worry that, upon my death, I'll be consigned to walls of flame but I worry about being a good person and not because I don't want to go to hell. In fact, I worry about being a moral person because I'm empathetic and goodness of character is meaningful to me. If I was a sociopath I probably wouldn't care, but I'm not so I do and it's as arbitrary as that.

I guess I'm asking if there is anyone else who isn't particularly threatened by the notion of hell. I'm not saying it's logically absurd or anything. I'm just saying I'm not worried about going to hell and it's not something that prompts me to worry and care about the existence of God.

Oh, in that case, I'd agree with you. I don't worry about hell either. I was just saying if God existed, it would be or could be very important that he did.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
cybertron1998
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3/24/2013 11:34:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 11:08:04 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/24/2013 11:00:57 AM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 3/24/2013 10:59:14 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
A little bit.

But I actually consider the idea of God worth talking about, since it's a source of conflict and contemplates deep philosophical ideas.

Are you answering me?

The OP?

the what?
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
twocupcakes
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3/24/2013 11:43:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 10:47:56 AM, phantom wrote:
It may decide whether you burn in hell for eternity or not.

Is an afterlife the only reason why it matters. What if there is a God but no afterlife and we live, die and never find out about his existence?
Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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3/24/2013 12:15:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 11:07:57 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/24/2013 10:47:56 AM, phantom wrote:
It may decide whether you burn in hell for eternity or not.

It may, but if I go outside I may get run over by a giant Indiana Jones type rolling stone and die. Anything, technically could happen, but you don't base your life off it unless there is good reason to.

Mortal and immortal is quite different.
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Pennington
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3/24/2013 12:17:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 11:10:03 AM, tarkovsky wrote:
At 3/24/2013 10:47:56 AM, phantom wrote:
It may decide whether you burn in hell for eternity or not.

Okay okay. Well. I suppose.. there is that. I don't worry that, upon my death, I'll be consigned to walls of flame but I worry about being a good person and not because I don't want to go to hell. In fact, I worry about being a moral person because I'm empathetic and goodness of character is meaningful to me. If I was a sociopath I probably wouldn't care, but I'm not so I do and it's as arbitrary as that.

I guess I'm asking if there is anyone else who isn't particularly threatened by the notion of hell. I'm not saying it's logically absurd or anything. I'm just saying I'm not worried about going to hell and it's not something that prompts me to worry and care about the existence of God.

If you reconize that God exist then how can you not care and assume that He wouldn't? While also ignoring that He as our parents may have rules and punishments.
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Pennington
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3/24/2013 12:23:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 11:43:00 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 3/24/2013 10:47:56 AM, phantom wrote:
It may decide whether you burn in hell for eternity or not.

Is an afterlife the only reason why it matters. What if there is a God but no afterlife and we live, die and never find out about his existence?:

Doesn't make sense because in creating us shows interest in us. Then you got the religious who say that God has made contact to man. Eternity or hell awaits if God exist.
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tarkovsky
Posts: 212
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3/24/2013 12:34:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 12:17:49 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/24/2013 11:10:03 AM, tarkovsky wrote:
At 3/24/2013 10:47:56 AM, phantom wrote:
It may decide whether you burn in hell for eternity or not.

Okay okay. Well. I suppose.. there is that. I don't worry that, upon my death, I'll be consigned to walls of flame but I worry about being a good person and not because I don't want to go to hell. In fact, I worry about being a moral person because I'm empathetic and goodness of character is meaningful to me. If I was a sociopath I probably wouldn't care, but I'm not so I do and it's as arbitrary as that.

I guess I'm asking if there is anyone else who isn't particularly threatened by the notion of hell. I'm not saying it's logically absurd or anything. I'm just saying I'm not worried about going to hell and it's not something that prompts me to worry and care about the existence of God.

If you reconize that God exist then how can you not care and assume that He wouldn't? While also ignoring that He as our parents may have rules and punishments.

Because I was already taught by my parents and informed by my physiology how to comport myself in the world. I want to be good because I'm empathetic, not because God wants for me to be good.

Also, I'm not saying God doesn't care, alls I'm saying is that a little helpful intervention would be useful from time to time. No deal? Alright that's cool, but I'm just going to carry on as normal. No need to pray and petition.

I mean, maybe I'm just lazy, but I don't really have an opinion about God's existence and it's mostly because I don't really care. This is my life, I'll just spend it living.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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3/24/2013 12:41:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
People, christianity is not something you read, you MUST apply it. It IS a lifestyle and a commitment and will most certainly change your life. You don't just read that you have to be "born again" you have to actually do it to have the results. We don't just read that we can pray and fellowship with God you actually have to do it to have it. If you want to hear from God then pursue God and talk to Him lol. If you want God to impact your life and your surroundings you have to commit to His Word and His leadings. If you want to see the Kingdom of God on earth as it is in Heaven then you must be "John 3: 3-6". If you do John 3:3-6 then you can have John 14: 17-23. If you believe that it makes no difference in your present life whether or not you accept God that is not christianity by a long shot and you should read John ch 15. If you want to know how and why we should then read Romans 8: 5-16.
tarkovsky
Posts: 212
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3/24/2013 12:52:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 12:41:10 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
People, christianity is not something you read, you MUST apply it. It IS a lifestyle and a commitment and will most certainly change your life. You don't just read that you have to be "born again" you have to actually do it to have the results. We don't just read that we can pray and fellowship with God you actually have to do it to have it. If you want to hear from God then pursue God and talk to Him lol. If you want God to impact your life and your surroundings you have to commit to His Word and His leadings. If you want to see the Kingdom of God on earth as it is in Heaven then you must be "John 3: 3-6". If you do John 3:3-6 then you can have John 14: 17-23. If you believe that it makes no difference in your present life whether or not you accept God that is not christianity by a long shot and you should read John ch 15. If you want to know how and why we should then read Romans 8: 5-16.

Too much effort. I got enough on my plate.
matt.mcguire88
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3/24/2013 1:12:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 10:49:11 AM, tarkovsky wrote:
At 3/24/2013 10:47:56 AM, phantom wrote:
It may decide whether you burn in hell for eternity or not.

That eventuality is precluded in that I don't have to have faith. If I know God exists then the notion of faith in God is absurd. I'd just know he was there.

No it is not absurd. Moses, Abraham and Jesus all knew God EXISTED and applied faith. The problem is not faith, it's what people think faith means in a biblical context. Faith in the Bible does not mean to believe that God exists, but to listen, obey, trust and believe that nothing is impossible with God. When I put "faith" in God, I am believing God for something that seems impossible in the physical. Faith is when I believe in the ability of God to accomplish something that I know I can't myself, so I put faith in God to intervene. Consider the parable of the mustard seed Matthew 17:20........... How does this imply not knowing that He exists??? If I use faith in God and it produces results then my faith and trust in God will grow and strengthen Matthew 9:29. Of course we are supposed to KNOW He is there lol Hebrews 11:16 says that we MUST, and that He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him.
matt.mcguire88
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3/24/2013 1:14:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 12:52:12 PM, tarkovsky wrote:
At 3/24/2013 12:41:10 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
People, christianity is not something you read, you MUST apply it. It IS a lifestyle and a commitment and will most certainly change your life. You don't just read that you have to be "born again" you have to actually do it to have the results. We don't just read that we can pray and fellowship with God you actually have to do it to have it. If you want to hear from God then pursue God and talk to Him lol. If you want God to impact your life and your surroundings you have to commit to His Word and His leadings. If you want to see the Kingdom of God on earth as it is in Heaven then you must be "John 3: 3-6". If you do John 3:3-6 then you can have John 14: 17-23. If you believe that it makes no difference in your present life whether or not you accept God that is not christianity by a long shot and you should read John ch 15. If you want to know how and why we should then read Romans 8: 5-16.

Too much effort. I got enough on my plate.

What lol! Is it too much effort to seek someone you are interested in? What did you expect? Anything good in life requires some pursuing
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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3/24/2013 1:32:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 11:34:03 AM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 3/24/2013 11:08:04 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 3/24/2013 11:00:57 AM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 3/24/2013 10:59:14 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
A little bit.

But I actually consider the idea of God worth talking about, since it's a source of conflict and contemplates deep philosophical ideas.

Are you answering me?

The OP?

the what?

Original poster.
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http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
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Rational_Thinker9119
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3/24/2013 1:39:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 11:15:47 AM, phantom wrote:
At 3/24/2013 11:07:57 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/24/2013 10:47:56 AM, phantom wrote:
It may decide whether you burn in hell for eternity or not.

It may, but if I go outside I may get run over by a giant Indiana Jones type rolling stone and die. Anything, technically could happen, but you don't base your life off it unless there is good reason to.

Yes it's unlikely, but I was under the assumption that he meant the actuality of God's existence, not the possibility or plausibility. God actually existing can make a huge difference. I wasn't saying the possibility of him existing.

I'm not talking about God existing, I'm talking about a heaven or hell existing. There could be some form of being that created this place for us to live life and just die without an afterlife. The chances of some God existing, are much higher than the chances of heaven of hell existing.
twocupcakes
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3/24/2013 1:49:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 12:23:12 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/24/2013 11:43:00 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 3/24/2013 10:47:56 AM, phantom wrote:
It may decide whether you burn in hell for eternity or not.

Is an afterlife the only reason why it matters. What if there is a God but no afterlife and we live, die and never find out about his existence?:

Doesn't make sense because in creating us shows interest in us. Then you got the religious who say that God has made contact to man. Eternity or hell awaits if God exist.

Do you believe that 100% it is impossible for a God to exist with o afterlife? I don't see why that can't happen.
phantom
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3/24/2013 4:49:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 11:43:00 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 3/24/2013 10:47:56 AM, phantom wrote:
It may decide whether you burn in hell for eternity or not.

Is an afterlife the only reason why it matters. What if there is a God but no afterlife and we live, die and never find out about his existence?

No, it's not the only thing that matters. I was only assuming certain types of "god".
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
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3/24/2013 4:54:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 1:39:20 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/24/2013 11:15:47 AM, phantom wrote:
At 3/24/2013 11:07:57 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/24/2013 10:47:56 AM, phantom wrote:
It may decide whether you burn in hell for eternity or not.

It may, but if I go outside I may get run over by a giant Indiana Jones type rolling stone and die. Anything, technically could happen, but you don't base your life off it unless there is good reason to.

Yes it's unlikely, but I was under the assumption that he meant the actuality of God's existence, not the possibility or plausibility. God actually existing can make a huge difference. I wasn't saying the possibility of him existing.

I'm not talking about God existing, I'm talking about a heaven or hell existing.

Well yes, I mean the type of God existing that would send you to hell.

There could be some form of being that created this place for us to live life and just die without an afterlife.

Agreed.

The chances of some God existing, are much higher than the chances of heaven of hell existing.

Definitely.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
000ike
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3/24/2013 5:30:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 1:39:20 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The chances of some God existing, are much higher than the chances of heaven of hell existing.

Explanation?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Sidewalker
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3/24/2013 5:34:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/24/2013 11:10:03 AM, tarkovsky wrote:
At 3/24/2013 10:47:56 AM, phantom wrote:
It may decide whether you burn in hell for eternity or not.

Okay okay. Well. I suppose.. there is that. I don't worry that, upon my death, I'll be consigned to walls of flame but I worry about being a good person and not because I don't want to go to hell. In fact, I worry about being a moral person because I'm empathetic and goodness of character is meaningful to me. If I was a sociopath I probably wouldn't care, but I'm not so I do and it's as arbitrary as that.

I guess I'm asking if there is anyone else who isn't particularly threatened by the notion of hell.

I'm a Christian and I'm not prticularly threatened by the notion of hell, at least not the notion of a literal fiery place of eternal torment for souls. That certainly isn't my interpretation, and it's pretty clear from studying the Bible that the Jews of the Old Testament had no such belief, nor did Jesus and his followers believe in such a place.

I'm not saying it's logically absurd or anything. I'm just saying I'm not worried about going to hell and it's not something that prompts me to worry and care about the existence of God.

It's not why I believe in God either.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater