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Catholic Cover-Ups

Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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11/13/2009 7:26:53 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Perhaps the Catholics wouldn't lose so much credibility if they practiced what they preached and had some accountability for their mistakes. What is it with priests obsessing over covering up mistakes instead of addressing them head-on? That alone warrants a complete lack of respect, especially since the clergy represents the Church. We all remember the scandals about the priests raping little boys and the Church letting it go. Now, we hear about things like priests having kids and then drawing up legal papers in which they would pay child support (the Church) but only under the basis that word never gets out about what was going on.

I can't help but consider our heated discussion about whether or not there should be gay clergy. The Church says no... but it's okay to have child molesting and lying, sexually active clergy? Of course the typical answer is going to be "No, they are not good representations of the Church" and blah blah blah. But what I find is that those who let them go ARE good representations of the Church. The Church has operated under hush hush scandal since its inception. I think it's appropriate for citizens, especially believers, to take a harsh stand against the higher-ups of this corrupt organization once and for all. It would be easy to sit there and say "Well they were just doing what was in the best interest of the Church" but what about upholding the best interest of the individual victims? The Church, like many other pointer-finger organizations regarding morality is nothing but hypocritical.
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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11/13/2009 7:41:39 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
I wouldn't say that they don't cover it up for political reasons, but...

They do also have the idea that if you confess, and are realllyyy sorry, you're completely fogiven. And this would mean lots of things.
1. It's not necessary that you serve time for molesting Johnny.
2. It's not necessary that you face public embarassment.
3. It's not necessary that you be removed from your place in the church.

So though I don't doubt that when the Bishops hear about such cases they're like "dammit we gotta cover this up before it hits the papers!", I think they also have a rationale in place which allows for such "coverups" to take place regularly without too much outrage in the Catholic community.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/13/2009 7:48:24 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
They're just corrupt. That's it. Anybody who rapes, especially if children are the victims, should not just be removed from a church, but from this world. All these light "punishment" that are not even real punishments are not effective at all. So many people think that reducing the punishment for such criminals is going to help. I can clearly see how much it helps. So much that it actually happens in a church.

These laws and your opinions on capital punishment for these molesters are enough to make me exhausted when hearing of it. If you want to be civilized then protect people, instead of letting lions on the loose.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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11/13/2009 7:50:08 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
What I think is interesting is that it's so often little "johnnys" and not "janes".

My own theory is that if a person is a devout believer, but is gay and hates themselves, then they see becoming a priest as a good way out. But then because they have been so sexually repressed their entire lives, and burdened with their secret, and self hate, some of them snap. They can't deal with the sexual repression, and hate themselves, so they are able to abuse their power on young people in their care, in order to get some kind of a release from their social celibacy.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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11/13/2009 7:52:20 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/13/2009 7:48:24 AM, Mirza wrote:
They're just corrupt. That's it. Anybody who rapes, especially if children are the victims, should not just be removed from a church, but from this world. All these light "punishment" that are not even real punishments are not effective at all. So many people think that reducing the punishment for such criminals is going to help. I can clearly see how much it helps. So much that it actually happens in a church.

These laws and your opinions on capital punishment for these molesters are enough to make me exhausted when hearing of it. If you want to be civilized then protect people, instead of letting lions on the loose.

lol. If you were talking to me, I think that such people ought to be castrated, if not hung. I was talking about the rationale of the church. I don't subscribe to that rationale.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Decorum
Posts: 7
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11/13/2009 8:15:03 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/13/2009 7:26:53 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Perhaps the Catholics wouldn't lose so much credibility if they practiced what they preached and had some accountability for their mistakes. What is it with priests obsessing over covering up mistakes instead of addressing them head-on? That alone warrants a complete lack of respect, especially since the clergy represents the Church. We all remember the scandals about the priests raping little boys and the Church letting it go.:

Of course, this type of behavior bears no resemblance to that of the many Protestant preachers of the day, right? (1) It becomes so easy to point a finger at the oldest church, especially since their history is less than reputable. I think that all organized religious institutions have these issues (2), it is, as you say, how they deal with them that makes a difference.

I will agree that the Church, just like any other, should be a model that people can live by. By 'covering-up' these scandals people should begin to wonder if these institutions, which claim to be doing good for the people, are in fact the type of institutions they want to be associated with.

I do believe that every church and denomination has their own 'cover-up', but the Catholics, for some reason, are the ones who take the most heat. I would advise that the next 'cover-up' topic has the word religious in front of it. I think then one could accurately depict how hypocritical these institutions are.

http://www.democraticunderground.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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11/13/2009 8:22:21 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
According ex-Illuminati Grand Master Leo Zagami who has close contact with the Vatican, Pope Ratzinger is a gay practicing black magician, and gets his orders from the Black Pope of the Jesuits.

It is true that the Catholic Church was created simply to control people. Constantine himself was a life-long Pagan and admitted that he would use Christianity to rule the people under one religion.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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11/13/2009 8:25:17 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/13/2009 8:22:21 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
According ex-Illuminati Grand Master Leo Zagami who has close contact with the Vatican, Pope Ratzinger is a gay practicing black magician, and gets his orders from the Black Pope of the Jesuits.

It is true that the Catholic Church was created simply to control people. Constantine himself was a life-long Pagan and admitted that he would use Christianity to rule the people under one religion.

lol. You sure it wasn't the aliens >:)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/13/2009 8:39:54 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
This to me shows how many Christian Churches border being on being cults.

A decent religion, discovering that it's members have committed terrible crimes that violate the tenets of the faith will appeal to the authorities.

A cult, considers that the secular authorities are beneath them, and an appeal to them politically damaging.

This idea combined with the idea that simply believing in Jesus is the ultimate morality and will probably cure you of things like paedophilia if you try hard enough is the reason why Catholic paedophile Priests are simply move around, and why the Jehovahs Witnesses have an internal register of paedophiles. Yes they do.

Very messed up.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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11/13/2009 8:44:34 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/13/2009 7:50:08 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
What I think is interesting is that it's so often little "johnnys" and not "janes".

My own theory is that if a person is a devout believer, but is gay and hates themselves, then they see becoming a priest as a good way out. But then because they have been so sexually repressed their entire lives, and burdened with their secret, and self hate, some of them snap. They can't deal with the sexual repression, and hate themselves, so they are able to abuse their power on young people in their care, in order to get some kind of a release from their social celibacy.

I very much agree with this assessment. We see it not only in the Church but politics as well. Many times the most vehement anti-gay legislators or combatants turn out to be gay themselves. There are also a whole bunch of lesbian nuns, the same way there are a whole bunch of closeted gays in the military.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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11/13/2009 8:51:36 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/13/2009 8:15:03 AM, Decorum wrote:

Of course, this type of behavior bears no resemblance to that of the many Protestant preachers of the day, right? (1) It becomes so easy to point a finger at the oldest church, especially since their history is less than reputable. I think that all organized religious institutions have these issues (2), it is, as you say, how they deal with them that makes a difference.

Protestants and any other religious organization should be held with equal accountability. I called out Catholicism in particular because the news program I watched regarding the scandal pertained to Catholics. Also, I do agree that the situations could have been handled differently. For instance, if the priest had a child, then I think the Church had a responsibility to its people and to its God (lol - isn't that the point?!) to say, "Hey. You screwed up. You got someone pregnant. This violates our laws; you can no longer be a priest - go get a job and help raise your kid."

Instead, the Church chose to sign hush hush legal papers and have church patrons pay for the child support of the kid, etc. Not to mention that the kid had to grow up not knowing the truth about his father, the mother was a victim because she was considerably taken advantage of by an authority figure (much like a shrink/patient relationship crosses certain boundaries), etc. I think this is a classic situation of failing to practice what you preach. Also, I still fail to see how the Church can reconcile keeping these priests as clergy but God forbid the issue of allowing gay clergy arises. It just doesn't make sense.
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Decorum
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11/13/2009 9:32:53 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
I agree with you 110%. I was merely pointing out the fact that the Church gets most of the heat while other churches are in the spotlight less. Is this the fault of the Catholics? As a one time Catholic, I would say, yes. They tend to handle their church more like a business than a house of God. In my opinion, the real issue deals with every religious institution (with a few exceptions) and their inability to perform as a role model to the people, especially since that is what they proclaim to be.

You may be wondering what the exceptions are. An example would be the Buddhists. To the best of my knowledge, this group has lived up to their proclamation. However, this does not mean that the 'exceptions' are excused from closer examination. Along with examination, people of differing faiths should use them as a check list. What does this belief have that mine does not? What sort of acts are carried out in this deities name versus my own? Questions of that nature.

I digress. Good points Lwerd.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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11/13/2009 9:46:53 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Good points, Decorum.

I'm not sure if the Catholics are called out most frequently because they're the worst, or just because they suck at what they do and tend to get caught a lot lol. History shows us though that they've never exactly been pillars of honesty or morality. Without even having to go so far back as citing all of the popes with their mistresses and obsession for wealth and power (hardly setting a good example let alone being the so-called closest to God), consider even the mafia's connections with the Catholic church. The church doesn't give a crap so long as the mafia keeps kicking those donations at them, eh?
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MikeLoviN
Posts: 746
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11/13/2009 9:56:36 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
There's a good South Park episode about this called 'Red Hot Catholic Love', season 6 episode 8... I suggest you watch it in it's entirety.
BiigDogg
Posts: 25
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11/13/2009 11:06:28 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/13/2009 7:41:39 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I wouldn't say that they don't cover it up for political reasons, but...

They do also have the idea that if you confess, and are realllyyy sorry, you're completely fogiven. And this would mean lots of things.
Very true, but you're taking forgiveness in the wrong manner.
They are to be forgiven by God, not by the people or the laws set forth for them to answer to.
That is why priests prey over Deathrow inmates. to relieve them of their sins so they're forgiven and can enter into heaven. Not to get the off the electric chair.
1. It's not necessary that you serve time for molesting Johnny.
Not true, More like not necessary to burn in hell.
2. It's not necessary that you face public embarassment.
Not true, if by law they should face public emberrasment then so be it, but forgiven they are.
3. It's not necessary that you be removed from your place in the church.
To be kicked from the church no, but lose ones place as a priest I believe is necessary to protect others of the church.

So though I don't doubt that when the Bishops hear about such cases they're like "dammit we gotta cover this up before it hits the papers!", I think they also have a rationale in place which allows for such "coverups" to take place regularly without too much outrage in the Catholic community.
Not rational... Just to their best interest. And the Catholic community are like the many citizens of a country, not logical, and do not know how to Act upon reason.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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11/13/2009 11:15:47 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/13/2009 8:22:21 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
According ex-Illuminati Grand Master Leo Zagami who has close contact with the Vatican, Pope Ratzinger is a gay practicing black magician, and gets his orders from the Black Pope of the Jesuits.

Sigged.
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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11/13/2009 12:25:53 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/13/2009 8:15:03 AM, Decorum wrote:
At 11/13/2009 7:26:53 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Perhaps the Catholics wouldn't lose so much credibility if they practiced what they preached and had some accountability for their mistakes. What is it with priests obsessing over covering up mistakes instead of addressing them head-on? That alone warrants a complete lack of respect, especially since the clergy represents the Church. We all remember the scandals about the priests raping little boys and the Church letting it go.:

Of course, this type of behavior bears no resemblance to that of the many Protestant preachers of the day, right? (1) It becomes so easy to point a finger at the oldest church, especially since their history is less than reputable. I think that all organized religious institutions have these issues (2), it is, as you say, how they deal with them that makes a difference.

I will agree that the Church, just like any other, should be a model that people can live by. By 'covering-up' these scandals people should begin to wonder if these institutions, which claim to be doing good for the people, are in fact the type of institutions they want to be associated with.

I do believe that every church and denomination has their own 'cover-up', but the Catholics, for some reason, are the ones who take the most heat. I would advise that the next 'cover-up' topic has the word religious in front of it. I think then one could accurately depict how hypocritical these institutions are.

http://www.democraticunderground.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

LOLOLOL!

It's okay that the Catholics molest, rape, and cover it up because other churches do it too. HILARIOUS.
Decorum
Posts: 7
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11/13/2009 12:50:35 PM
Posted: 7 years ago

LOLOLOL!

It's okay that the Catholics molest, rape, and cover it up because other churches do it too. HILARIOUS.

Wow, miss the point much?
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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11/13/2009 2:02:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/13/2009 11:15:47 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 11/13/2009 8:22:21 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
According ex-Illuminati Grand Master Leo Zagami who has close contact with the Vatican, Pope Ratzinger is a gay practicing black magician, and gets his orders from the Black Pope of the Jesuits.

Sigged.

Lmfao. This is my favorite one yet.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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11/14/2009 4:55:42 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/13/2009 9:32:53 AM, Decorum wrote:

You may be wondering what the exceptions are. An example would be the Buddhists. To the best of my knowledge, this group has lived up to their proclamation.

From Hitchens:

"The Dalai Lama claims to be a hereditary god and a hereditary king. I don’t think any decent person can assent to that proposition. You should take a look at what Tibet was like when it was run by the lamas. Buddhism has some of the same problems as Western religion. Zen was the official ideology of Hirohito’s fascism that was used to conquer and reduce the rest of Asia to subservience. The current dictatorship in Burma is officially Buddhist. The Buddhist forces in Sri Lanka are the ones who began the horrific civil war there with their pogroms against the Tamils in the 1950s and 1960s. Lon Nol’s army in Cambodia was officially Buddhist."
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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11/14/2009 4:57:06 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/14/2009 4:55:42 AM, Puck wrote:
At 11/13/2009 9:32:53 AM, Decorum wrote:

You may be wondering what the exceptions are. An example would be the Buddhists. To the best of my knowledge, this group has lived up to their proclamation.

From Hitchens:

"The Dalai Lama claims to be a hereditary god and a hereditary king. I don't think any decent person can assent to that proposition. You should take a look at what Tibet was like when it was run by the lamas. Buddhism has some of the same problems as Western religion. Zen was the official ideology of Hirohito's fascism that was used to conquer and reduce the rest of Asia to subservience. The current dictatorship in Burma is officially Buddhist. The Buddhist forces in Sri Lanka are the ones who began the horrific civil war there with their pogroms against the Tamils in the 1950s and 1960s. Lon Nol's army in Cambodia was officially Buddhist."