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Should Atheists Organize Politically?

Chase200mph
Posts: 332
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3/31/2013 9:18:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
My response was this"""""""..This is a tough and complicated question. As an atheist I see no evidence of god. What I do see is an attempt of the religious rightwing attempting to hold back, punish, or otherwise discriminate against atheists, but I see them doing this to all other non-believers (the other religious faiths) as well, and they are doing so as a direct constitutional violation without being called on it"""""""""""Yes I know I never answered the question, I am still working on it. : )

What do you think?
While an otherwise educated intelligent person may still believe in the bible, that person would have no educated or intellectual reason to do so.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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3/31/2013 9:52:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
All that would do is turn Atheists into another lumped group that can be stereotyped and neatly hated. Atheism is not a binding set of beliefs; it is the lack thereof. What it represents is freedom of thought and individuality. You turn it into a political group and you doom its message.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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3/31/2013 10:26:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 9:52:49 AM, 000ike wrote:
All that would do is turn Atheists into another lumped group that can be stereotyped and neatly hated. Atheism is not a binding set of beliefs; it is the lack thereof. What it represents is freedom of thought and individuality. You turn it into a political group and you doom its message.

lol atheism doesn't represent that. Atheists have been some of the most repressive scumbags in history. Atheism is not believing in gods, nothing less, nothing more.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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3/31/2013 10:35:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 10:26:17 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 3/31/2013 9:52:49 AM, 000ike wrote:
All that would do is turn Atheists into another lumped group that can be stereotyped and neatly hated. Atheism is not a binding set of beliefs; it is the lack thereof. What it represents is freedom of thought and individuality. You turn it into a political group and you doom its message.

lol atheism doesn't represent that. Atheists have been some of the most repressive scumbags in history. Atheism is not believing in gods, nothing less, nothing more.

I don't see how we disagree. My point was the the freedom and individuality exists within the "nothing less, nothing more"..
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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3/31/2013 6:01:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Should theists?
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philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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3/31/2013 8:51:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Unless there are some political views that follow from atheism, I don't see why atheists should organize politically. If I were an atheist, I wouldn't want anybody to suggest that I adopt a certain set of political positions just because that's what other atheists are doing. If people organize politically, it should be because they have similar political ideas, not because they all happen not to believe in God.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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3/31/2013 9:06:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 9:52:49 AM, 000ike wrote:
All that would do is turn Atheists into another lumped group that can be stereotyped and neatly hated. Atheism is not a binding set of beliefs; it is the lack thereof. What it represents is freedom of thought and individuality. You turn it into a political group and you doom its message.

When people say dumb stuff like that it almost makes me want to believe in god.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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3/31/2013 9:17:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 9:06:44 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 3/31/2013 9:52:49 AM, 000ike wrote:
All that would do is turn Atheists into another lumped group that can be stereotyped and neatly hated. Atheism is not a binding set of beliefs; it is the lack thereof. What it represents is freedom of thought and individuality. You turn it into a political group and you doom its message.

When people say dumb stuff like that it almost makes me want to believe in god.

Agreed. I hear the Soviets were into freedom of thought and individuality. Ike may want to take it up with Vavilov... oh wait, never mind.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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3/31/2013 9:20:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 9:17:26 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/31/2013 9:06:44 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 3/31/2013 9:52:49 AM, 000ike wrote:
All that would do is turn Atheists into another lumped group that can be stereotyped and neatly hated. Atheism is not a binding set of beliefs; it is the lack thereof. What it represents is freedom of thought and individuality. You turn it into a political group and you doom its message.

When people say dumb stuff like that it almost makes me want to believe in god.

Agreed. I hear the Soviets were into freedom of thought and individuality. Ike may want to take it up with Vavilov... oh wait, never mind.

lol
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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3/31/2013 9:21:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 9:06:44 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 3/31/2013 9:52:49 AM, 000ike wrote:
All that would do is turn Atheists into another lumped group that can be stereotyped and neatly hated. Atheism is not a binding set of beliefs; it is the lack thereof. What it represents is freedom of thought and individuality. You turn it into a political group and you doom its message.

When people say dumb stuff like that it almost makes me want to believe in god.

such an aggressive @sshole.

I feel bad for reciprocating, but you should get exactly what you give to others.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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3/31/2013 9:23:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 9:21:49 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/31/2013 9:06:44 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 3/31/2013 9:52:49 AM, 000ike wrote:
All that would do is turn Atheists into another lumped group that can be stereotyped and neatly hated. Atheism is not a binding set of beliefs; it is the lack thereof. What it represents is freedom of thought and individuality. You turn it into a political group and you doom its message.

When people say dumb stuff like that it almost makes me want to believe in god.

such an aggressive @sshole.

I feel bad for reciprocating, but you should get exactly what you give to others.

How's that morality justified? Hmmmm?????
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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3/31/2013 9:27:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 9:52:49 AM, 000ike wrote:
All that would do is turn Atheists into another lumped group that can be stereotyped and neatly hated. Atheism is not a binding set of beliefs; it is the lack thereof. What it represents is freedom of thought and individuality. You turn it into a political group and you doom its message.

If atheism is not a belief, but a lack thereof, then how can it have a message? What is its message?
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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3/31/2013 9:29:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Religion in becoming so moderate, unnecessary, and diluted that organizing politically is unneeded. I think the most powerful force spreading irreligion would be (1) economic prosperity and (2) freedom of speech. (1) When people don't irrationally fear death, disease, famine, and repression, and instead can safely watch sports, eat plentiful food, and engage in meaningful work, religion becomes useless. (2) Top-Down belief change in a political association that can easily be demonized would change people's beliefs more slowly than simply permitting free speech, so that people's ideas can be more readily changed by a more effective vehicle.
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Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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3/31/2013 9:29:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 9:21:49 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/31/2013 9:06:44 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 3/31/2013 9:52:49 AM, 000ike wrote:
All that would do is turn Atheists into another lumped group that can be stereotyped and neatly hated. Atheism is not a binding set of beliefs; it is the lack thereof. What it represents is freedom of thought and individuality. You turn it into a political group and you doom its message.

When people say dumb stuff like that it almost makes me want to believe in god.

such an aggressive @sshole.

I feel bad for reciprocating, but you should get exactly what you give to others.

Don't defend the statement. Call me a name broz. Come at me.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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3/31/2013 9:31:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 9:29:30 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 3/31/2013 9:21:49 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/31/2013 9:06:44 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 3/31/2013 9:52:49 AM, 000ike wrote:
All that would do is turn Atheists into another lumped group that can be stereotyped and neatly hated. Atheism is not a binding set of beliefs; it is the lack thereof. What it represents is freedom of thought and individuality. You turn it into a political group and you doom its message.

When people say dumb stuff like that it almost makes me want to believe in god.

such an aggressive @sshole.

I feel bad for reciprocating, but you should get exactly what you give to others.

Don't defend the statement. Call me a name broz. Come at me.

Sure I'll defend it with the same maturity and intellectual effort you put into attacking it.

The statement is not dumb.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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3/31/2013 9:32:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think it's more important to spread reason and skepticism rather than atheism alone. It's not enough to treat the symptoms without treating the cause. It's clear that abolishing religion without replacing it with a valid moral philosophy could result in atrocities like the Soviet Union.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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3/31/2013 9:45:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 9:27:03 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 3/31/2013 9:52:49 AM, 000ike wrote:
All that would do is turn Atheists into another lumped group that can be stereotyped and neatly hated. Atheism is not a binding set of beliefs; it is the lack thereof. What it represents is freedom of thought and individuality. You turn it into a political group and you doom its message.

If atheism is not a belief, but a lack thereof, then how can it have a message? What is its message?

I'll concede that, this is a contradiction. There should be no message. Being an atheist is a step toward greater freedom and greater individual, so it shouldn't be reversed by dogma and grouping.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
GordonHide
Posts: 3
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4/1/2013 8:16:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
On the practical side the most effective form of political lobbying is single issue lobbying. In practical terms this means joining a lobby group as an individual not as member of some other organisation.

As an example let us suppose that you think it's important to keep creationism out of science education. If you join a group with that goal and bother to enquire you will find that most of you fellow lobbyists are religious. Your atheism in that situation is more likely to be detrimental to your political goal.
GordonHide
Posts: 3
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4/1/2013 8:28:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Adam Carolla is actually typical of the majority of the world's atheists. Basically they just don't care and they aren't interested. They're getting on with something else they feel is more important than not believing in gods.

This may be annoying to atheist activists or anti-theists but it's the way things are.

Imagine yourself to be a space alien looking down on the Earth and listening in to broadcasts. Who are you going to be most impressed by? Those arguing the toss about the existence of an imaginary being or those getting on with something more constructive?
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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4/1/2013 8:41:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/1/2013 8:28:51 AM, GordonHide wrote:
Adam Carolla is actually typical of the majority of the world's atheists. Basically they just don't care and they aren't interested. They're getting on with something else they feel is more important than not believing in gods.

This may be annoying to atheist activists or anti-theists but it's the way things are.

Imagine yourself to be a space alien looking down on the Earth and listening in to broadcasts. Who are you going to be most impressed by? Those arguing the toss about the existence of an imaginary being or those getting on with something more constructive?

If they have the technology to look down at us without us being able to perceive them; the answer is probably neither. They aren't impressed with either one. They probably wouldn't care enough in the first place to watch us. But if they did, and if it was to watch our development, then they would probably be disappointed in 99.99999% of us. And it might be that they are disappointed in all people who are arguing about god. Or none of them. What would we know, their thought processes could be completely different then ours.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Magic8000
Posts: 975
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4/1/2013 12:18:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
http://www.usanap.org...
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
GordonHide
Posts: 3
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4/1/2013 1:19:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/1/2013 8:41:14 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 4/1/2013 8:28:51 AM, GordonHide wrote:
Adam Carolla is actually typical of the majority of the world's atheists. Basically they just don't care and they aren't interested. They're getting on with something else they feel is more important than not believing in gods.

This may be annoying to atheist activists or anti-theists but it's the way things are.

Imagine yourself to be a space alien looking down on the Earth and listening in to broadcasts. Who are you going to be most impressed by? Those arguing the toss about the existence of an imaginary being or those getting on with something more constructive?

If they have the technology to look down at us without us being able to perceive them; the answer is probably neither. They aren't impressed with either one. They probably wouldn't care enough in the first place to watch us. But if they did, and if it was to watch our development, then they would probably be disappointed in 99.99999% of us. And it might be that they are disappointed in all people who are arguing about god. Or none of them. What would we know, their thought processes could be completely different then ours.

Oh dear. You're a nitpicker Muzebreak. I sugget you seek a cure.