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YHWH has to Allow Suffering

SavedByChrist94
Posts: 5
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3/31/2013 5:21:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Anyone who disagrees and believes that suffering is incompatible with YHWH/God, please challenge me to debate on The Problem of Suffering.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/31/2013 5:24:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If God is all loving and all powerful, he can surely create a situation where suffering is not necessary for any greater good.

Also, if God has free-will, he doesn't "have" to do anything.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
SavedByChrist94
Posts: 5
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3/31/2013 5:32:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 5:24:51 PM, FREEDO wrote:
If God is all loving and all powerful, he can surely create a situation where suffering is not necessary for any greater good.

Also, if God has free-will, he doesn't "have" to do anything.

If that's how you feel then accept the debate before someone else does, http://www.debate.org...
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
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3/31/2013 5:33:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 5:24:51 PM, FREEDO wrote:
If God is all loving and all powerful, he can surely create a situation where suffering is not necessary for any greater good.
Is such a situation possible?

Also, if God has free-will, he doesn't "have" to do anything.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/31/2013 5:35:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 5:33:44 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 3/31/2013 5:24:51 PM, FREEDO wrote:
If God is all loving and all powerful, he can surely create a situation where suffering is not necessary for any greater good.
Is such a situation possible?

If God sets the rules for what's possible, then yes. If not, then he's not all-powerful.

I'm not against all ideas of God. But the one typically portrayed with all these ridiculous attributes is just stupid.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/31/2013 5:36:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 5:32:05 PM, SavedByChrist94 wrote:
At 3/31/2013 5:24:51 PM, FREEDO wrote:
If God is all loving and all powerful, he can surely create a situation where suffering is not necessary for any greater good.

Also, if God has free-will, he doesn't "have" to do anything.

If that's how you feel then accept the debate before someone else does, http://www.debate.org...

In can't debate right now but thanks. Just offering my two cents.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
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3/31/2013 5:41:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 5:35:42 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/31/2013 5:33:44 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 3/31/2013 5:24:51 PM, FREEDO wrote:
If God is all loving and all powerful, he can surely create a situation where suffering is not necessary for any greater good.
Is such a situation possible?

If God sets the rules for what's possible, then yes. If not, then he's not all-powerful.

I'm not against all ideas of God. But the one typically portrayed with all these ridiculous attributes is just stupid.

What about a God bound by logic? A completely unlimited good who is omnibenelovent seems foolish, I agree.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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3/31/2013 5:42:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 5:35:42 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/31/2013 5:33:44 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 3/31/2013 5:24:51 PM, FREEDO wrote:
If God is all loving and all powerful, he can surely create a situation where suffering is not necessary for any greater good.
Is such a situation possible?

If God sets the rules for what's possible, then yes. If not, then he's not all-powerful.

God has to design the concept of "possibility" in order to be omnipotent?
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/31/2013 5:44:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 5:41:24 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 3/31/2013 5:35:42 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/31/2013 5:33:44 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 3/31/2013 5:24:51 PM, FREEDO wrote:
If God is all loving and all powerful, he can surely create a situation where suffering is not necessary for any greater good.
Is such a situation possible?

If God sets the rules for what's possible, then yes. If not, then he's not all-powerful.

I'm not against all ideas of God. But the one typically portrayed with all these ridiculous attributes is just stupid.

What about a God bound by logic? A completely unlimited good who is omnibenelovent seems foolish, I agree.

You can do that. But then you also need to come up with the reason for these set of rules that God must follow. So God is no longer a solve-all cop-out.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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3/31/2013 6:00:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm not bothered debating you, but Ill tell you right now, you're 'examples' in your debate are clearly set up to make you right. Here's an example to prove you wrong;

God prevents all suffering by creating a world in which it happens that all people use free will to make good choices. This is also a world where people learn all the lessons they might have learned from suffering, from god instead.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/31/2013 6:09:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 6:00:53 PM, muzebreak wrote:
I'm not bothered debating you, but Ill tell you right now, you're 'examples' in your debate are clearly set up to make you right. Here's an example to prove you wrong;

God prevents all suffering by creating a world in which it happens that all people use free will to make good choices. This is also a world where people learn all the lessons they might have learned from suffering, from god instead.

Exactly. Lets say I have the choice to give to charity one, or charity two, either option is good, and I have the choice to choose either one even if I didn't have the ability to stab someone. If it was impossible to rape someone, I could still choose between helping an old lady cross the street at a certain time, or turning another direction to help a homeless person at a certain time. The ability to chose evil, is not necessary for the ability to have free will by any means.

Also, you are correct. Any lesson God wanted us to learn, could be done without the use of suffering. There is nothing logically contradictory about that.
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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3/31/2013 8:31:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 8:27:49 PM, Pennington wrote:
Come on now do we not have suffering in love? Do you not have pain to love?

No. Not necessarily.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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3/31/2013 8:33:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 8:31:38 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 3/31/2013 8:27:49 PM, Pennington wrote:
Come on now do we not have suffering in love? Do you not have pain to love?

No. Not necessarily.:

I say there is....example there is not.
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Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/31/2013 8:46:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 8:27:49 PM, Pennington wrote:
Come on now do we not have suffering in love? Do you not have pain to love?

There is no reason to think that love cannot exist without pain. If God is all powerful, a world in which just as much love exists as in this world, but without the pain, is possible.
Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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3/31/2013 8:51:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 8:46:32 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/31/2013 8:27:49 PM, Pennington wrote:
Come on now do we not have suffering in love? Do you not have pain to love?

There is no reason to think that love cannot exist without pain. If God is all powerful, a world in which just as much love exists as in this world, but without the pain, is possible.:

Not if taking away the possibility of pain disminishes real love.
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Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/31/2013 8:55:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 8:51:08 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/31/2013 8:46:32 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/31/2013 8:27:49 PM, Pennington wrote:
Come on now do we not have suffering in love? Do you not have pain to love?

There is no reason to think that love cannot exist without pain. If God is all powerful, a world in which just as much love exists as in this world, but without the pain, is possible.:

Not if taking away the possibility of pain disminishes real love.

If God is all powerful, then an undimished real love could exist without pain. If God couldn't create world in which real love existed without pain, then he is not all powerful. If God exists, he has the power to do anything logically possible, and there is no contradiction with the idea that real love can exist without pain.
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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3/31/2013 8:55:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 8:33:27 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/31/2013 8:31:38 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 3/31/2013 8:27:49 PM, Pennington wrote:
Come on now do we not have suffering in love? Do you not have pain to love?

No. Not necessarily.:

I say there is....example there is not.

You don't understand burden of proof, do you?
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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3/31/2013 9:14:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 8:55:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/31/2013 8:51:08 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/31/2013 8:46:32 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/31/2013 8:27:49 PM, Pennington wrote:
Come on now do we not have suffering in love? Do you not have pain to love?

There is no reason to think that love cannot exist without pain. If God is all powerful, a world in which just as much love exists as in this world, but without the pain, is possible.:

Not if taking away the possibility of pain disminishes real love.

If God is all powerful, then an undimished real love could exist without pain. If God couldn't create world in which real love existed without pain, then he is not all powerful. If God exists, he has the power to do anything logically possible, and there is no contradiction with the idea that real love can exist without pain.:

We know love has caused pain but where is the example that love has not never caused pain? To be just as well as loving then the wicked must be punished. Pain must exist for love to exist.
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Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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3/31/2013 9:15:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 8:55:41 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 3/31/2013 8:33:27 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/31/2013 8:31:38 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 3/31/2013 8:27:49 PM, Pennington wrote:
Come on now do we not have suffering in love? Do you not have pain to love?

No. Not necessarily.:

I say there is....example there is not.

You don't understand burden of proof, do you?:

Yes, I do, Do you? We have endless exmaples of love causing pain and infact we can be sure love causes pain but you must show one case that love hasn;t caused pain during it the time of that love.
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Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/31/2013 9:25:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 9:14:07 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/31/2013 8:55:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/31/2013 8:51:08 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/31/2013 8:46:32 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/31/2013 8:27:49 PM, Pennington wrote:
Come on now do we not have suffering in love? Do you not have pain to love?

There is no reason to think that love cannot exist without pain. If God is all powerful, a world in which just as much love exists as in this world, but without the pain, is possible.:

Not if taking away the possibility of pain disminishes real love.

If God is all powerful, then an undimished real love could exist without pain. If God couldn't create world in which real love existed without pain, then he is not all powerful. If God exists, he has the power to do anything logically possible, and there is no contradiction with the idea that real love can exist without pain.:

We know love has caused pain but where is the example that love has not never caused pain?

I'm not claiming that love has never caused pain. The point you are missing, is that if God wanted to, he could have made the world, a place where love existed and pain doesn't. Pain is only associated with love in this world, because that's the way God made it, if he exists.

To be just as well as loving then the wicked must be punished.

That made no sense. I think you need to learn to structure sentences better.

Pain must exist for love to exist.

Then you admit an all powerful being, did not create this world. An all powerful being could create love, without pain. Since God is defined as all powerful, you inadvertently admit God does not exist with your above statement. Case closed.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/31/2013 9:26:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 9:15:24 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/31/2013 8:55:41 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 3/31/2013 8:33:27 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/31/2013 8:31:38 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 3/31/2013 8:27:49 PM, Pennington wrote:
Come on now do we not have suffering in love? Do you not have pain to love?

No. Not necessarily.:

I say there is....example there is not.

You don't understand burden of proof, do you?:

Yes, I do, Do you? We have endless exmaples of love causing pain and infact we can be sure love causes pain but you must show one case that love hasn;t caused pain during it the time of that love.

You are missing the point entirely lol Pain is associated with love....In this world. However, God could have created a world, in which this was not the case if he was all powerful. Thus, if God exists, pain is not required for love.
Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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3/31/2013 10:14:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 9:25:04 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

We know love has caused pain but where is the example that love has not never caused pain?

I'm not claiming that love has never caused pain. The point you are missing, is that if God wanted to, he could have made the world, a place where love existed and pain doesn't. Pain is only associated with love in this world, because that's the way God made it, if he exists. :
No, I got the point. The point is though He could, it was not the optimal choice with freedom and love.


To be just as well as loving then the wicked must be punished.

That made no sense. I think you need to learn to structure sentences better.:
It made sense.

Pain must exist for love to exist.

Then you admit an all powerful being, did not create this world.:
No I dont.
An all powerful being could create love, without pain.:
Could.
Since God is defined as all powerful, you inadvertently admit God does not exist with your above statement. Case closed.:
Nope, Ive have maintained that pain must exist for love to exist. This doesn't mean that we could have been created without pain but that we were because for freedom, love, choice, to be true and real, pain must exist to go along with. So God could have created us without pain but that would not be true love. The reason is God did not choose the pain for us, we chose it.
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Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/31/2013 10:44:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 10:14:25 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/31/2013 9:25:04 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

We know love has caused pain but where is the example that love has not never caused pain?

I'm not claiming that love has never caused pain. The point you are missing, is that if God wanted to, he could have made the world, a place where love existed and pain doesn't. Pain is only associated with love in this world, because that's the way God made it, if he exists. :
No, I got the point. The point is though He could, it was not the optimal choice with freedom and love.


To be just as well as loving then the wicked must be punished.

That made no sense. I think you need to learn to structure sentences better.:
It made sense.

Pain must exist for love to exist.

Then you admit an all powerful being, did not create this world.:
No I dont.
An all powerful being could create love, without pain.:
Could.
Since God is defined as all powerful, you inadvertently admit God does not exist with your above statement. Case closed.:
Nope, Ive have maintained that pain must exist for love to exist. This doesn't mean that we could have been created without pain but that we were because for freedom, love, choice, to be true and real, pain must exist to go along with. So God could have created us without pain but that would not be true love. The reason is God did not choose the pain for us, we chose it.

You contradicted yourself, thus your argument is invalid.

You admit that God could have created love, without pain...

Me: An all powerful being could create love, without pain
You: Could.

...But then say that you maintain that pain is required for love.

You: Ive have maintained that pain must exist for love to exist.

If pain is required for love, then that means God couldn't have created a love without pain. You need to understand the logical law of non-contradiction, before pretending like your arguments are logical (because, they are not). You have given no reason to think that pain is required for love, this is just asserted without reasoning from you. Therefore, what you are saying should be taken with a grain of salt.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/31/2013 10:49:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 10:14:25 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/31/2013 9:25:04 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

We know love has caused pain but where is the example that love has not never caused pain?

I'm not claiming that love has never caused pain. The point you are missing, is that if God wanted to, he could have made the world, a place where love existed and pain doesn't. Pain is only associated with love in this world, because that's the way God made it, if he exists. :
No, I got the point. The point is though He could, it was not the optimal choice with freedom and love.


To be just as well as loving then the wicked must be punished.

That made no sense. I think you need to learn to structure sentences better.:
It made sense.

Pain must exist for love to exist.

Then you admit an all powerful being, did not create this world.:
No I dont.
An all powerful being could create love, without pain.:
Could.
Since God is defined as all powerful, you inadvertently admit God does not exist with your above statement. Case closed.:
Nope, Ive have maintained that pain must exist for love to exist. This doesn't mean that we could have been created without pain but that we were because for freedom, love, choice, to be true and real, pain must exist to go along with. So God could have created us without pain but that would not be true love. The reason is God did not choose the pain for us, we chose it.

Pain is associated with love for many contingent reasons. Love doesn't last, so it makes us feel pain. Sometimes our lovers cheat, that makes us feel pain. Sometimes, people we love ignore us, and makes us feel pain. However, these feelings of pain are completely contingent upon the way God wired our reality, assuming he exists. There is no contradiction, in the notion of a universe in which we get the same feelings of love as we do in this one, but without the negative pain associated with it. Therefore, it is not true that pain is required for love. If pain is required for love, then God is not omnipotent.
Suqua
Posts: 433
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4/6/2013 5:10:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2013 5:21:45 PM, SavedByChrist94 wrote:
Anyone who disagrees and believes that suffering is incompatible with YHWH/God, please challenge me to debate on The Problem of Suffering.

Why not here and now?
Suqua
Posts: 433
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4/6/2013 5:14:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/6/2013 5:10:06 AM, Suqua wrote:
At 3/31/2013 5:21:45 PM, SavedByChrist94 wrote:
Anyone who disagrees and believes that suffering is incompatible with YHWH/God, please challenge me to debate on The Problem of Suffering.

Why not here and now?

This may be a power trip! Not like Christ! Saved by........? I wonder. By their deeds.......