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allah instructing to kill

banker
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11/16/2009 2:36:20 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Like the OT in the Bible, but unlike the NT (where the commandment is: You shall not kill), war is an integrated and essential part of the Quran - not much during the Mecca (first) period, but far more than sufficient in the Medina years. There are two distinct differences, though, between also the OT and the Quran:

A. In the Quran war for Islam in many cases is a holy duty - jihad - to wage war and to kill for Allah and for Muhammad (and his successors). In OT it is simply historical facts that it happened like that - except that Yahweh gave orders and some places was not satisfied with that Israel did not kill or evict enough of the people that lived in the country before the Jews arrived, which would cause troubles later, he said - - - which it did, according to the Bible.

There is one presumably strict limit to jihad: It can only be declared for a war in self-defence. What Muslims do not often mention, is that "it is to be understood in the widest meaning of the word" to quote "The Message of the Quran" - - - and that even this small reservation frequently was "overlooked" in wars of conquest. That makes this often touted limit meaningless - nearly anything can be defined as "self defence" when you go for "the widest meaning of the word" - especially when fanatics themselves decide what is to be reckoned as an attack (mainly anything they themselves dislike or disagree with - no matter if it is true or not) and who are guilty (f. ex. "anyone in the west (and other non-Muslim countries in at least slightly opposition to Muslims), because they pay tax and thus help to finance the "war" against Islam", is a definition used by fanatics and terrorists - no matter that it is not possible for most people in most countries not to pay tax if you at all make a somewhat normal living.). In the hands and minds of fanatics there hardly is any limitation - which is proved by the situation many places today. Remember f. ex. that the Quran says that murder/war is better (for Islam) than suppression. If some fanatics in London or Amsterdam or Oslo or Copenhagen or Paris or Madrid or Moscow or in any town in my dear Germany - or for that case here in Cairo or in Algeria or Casablanca - think that Muslims there in some ways are suppressed, or they simply want to "resist against the attacking West", or "infidels should not rule over Muslims - politically or at work" (there have been many an "intifada" in Muslim countries through the centuries because a non-Muslim got a job with Muslim underlings), that is good and valid reason for "jihad". As we have seen time and again.

B. In the Bible it is told about wars 2000 to 4000 years ago. In the Quran it is not only told about old wars, but given strong incitement and strict orders that to wage war for the belief often is a holy duty - and a sure way to a Paradise with lots of Earth-like luxury and lots of wonderful houries - in the old time, now, and in all future till Islam is the dominant religion, and all non-Muslims are suppressed and powerless underlings obeying Muslim regimes and paying extra taxes.

It is said that Islam is a religion for peace. That may be true among Muslims - though history has shown, and shows today - that it is easy for Muslim leaders to start even a holy war against other Muslims. It just is to declare that the enemies are not real Muslims of the correct belief any more - and of course it is "our" side that represents the correct belief.

As for Muslims and "infidels" it is a most open question - some would say a sure thing not open - how peaceful Islam is towards non-Muslims in Muslim societies and countries.

But remember that also Muslims are humans. Most of them just want to live in peace and quiet with their family and friends and neighbours, and want no war at all.

On the other hand terrorists do not have to disuse the Quran to find verses telling them to fight and kill non-Muslims - - - in a way it is easy to see why some terrorists say peaceful Muslims are wrong. This even more so, as not all verses in the Quran are reckoned to have the same value - some even are reckoned to be without value, as younger verses say something else (there are contradicting points in the Quran - Allah has had to change his mind some times - and the general rule in Islam then, is that the youngest verse is what counts. Because of this, I include the year (AD) when Muhammad told the surahs, if the year is known (in many cases the year is approximately only). But beware that in some cases not all the verses in a surah are of the same age - it can vary wildly, as the verses "came down" a few at a time, and not necessarily were put together in chronological order. I may here mention that surahs from the early periode (in Mecca, from where he fled to Yathrib, later named Medina, in 622 AD) tends (to say the least of it) to be milder than later ones in Medina where Muhammad quickly became more powerful and strongly tended to be harder and more warlike.

The first number is year, as said, followed by my surah serial numbers in ( ) as shown in chapter II - these are on a separate line on top. Then follows the number of the quote in this chapter - quotes showing sure mention of fighting are "named" by numbers, quotes showing likely or probable or possible referring the fighting have letters, whereas 000 refers to fighting of no concerns to Muslims. Finally follows the surah and verse numbers from the Quran in Yusuf Ali‘s translation to English.

Year 611-614 AD, (002).

0Aa 73/20: "He (Allah*) knoweth that there may be (some) among you - - - fighting in Allah's cause". This is the only mentioning of fighting up to around 616 AD, in a period where Muhammad had brought nearly 50 - fifty - surahs, not one of which even mention the word fighting. And as is shown below there is no other unmistakeable mentioning of fighting in all the 12 years before Muhammad had to flee to Yathrib (now Medina) - and even this verse may simply mean mental fighting by means of words and deeds, not by means of the sword. This in spite of how central the war for Allah and for Muhammad became. Did Allah change his mind after some years? Or was it Muhammad who changed as he gained power? This early Muhammad did not have enough followers to really fight with weapons. But in case it at this time only meant fighting with words it is even more strange that Allah later so totally changed his mind, from a peaceful religion to one of war and teaching hate with so much stress on the duty to fight and die for Allah and Muhammad. If he was omnipotent, he should from the very beginning have known what a gift it was to Allah that humans fought and killed each others in reverence to him - not to mention how unfair it was not to tell his first followers about this sure way to Paradise and the houries, etc., and deny them this easy way to the Next Life. Not to mention how unfair it was against the bad ones of his followers not to tell them that they really had a chance to come to Paradise: Be killed in war for Allah, and everything was forgiven, nearly no matter how bad a man you had been.

Year 616 AD approximately, surah 22 (047).

0Ab 22/78: "And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). The word "strive" frequently is used as a synonym for "fight", but in this case it is unclear if it is meant "fight" or mental striving to get more Muslims or "work hard".

Year 622 AD or later, surah 17 (065).

000 17/5: "- - - We (Allah*) sent against you (the Jews*) Our servants (attackers from the east*) given to terrible warfare - - -". Israel was attacked some times during the time of OT but for natural reasons no Muslim was involved (1000 years and more too early).

Year 622 AD Mecca, surah 16 (078).

0Ac 16/110. "But verily thy Lord - to those who leave their homes after trials and persecutions - and thereafter strive for the Faith and pati
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
banker
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11/16/2009 2:38:02 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Year 622-624 AD, surah 2 (088).

007 2/190: "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors". This may be seen as order to fight in self-defence, and to be not too inhuman in war. The questions may be: Who defines the limits? And who defines what to call self-defence? Terrorists use the word "attack" for everything, and when Muslim interests are "attacked", terror is self-defence. Also Islam says that the expression is to be "understood in the widest meaning of the word (f. ex. "The Message of the Quran") - which is very wide and covers almost any excuse to go to war - - - and to call that war jihad (holy war). Words are very cheap, and it is possible to call anything Muslims do not like, or at least what they dislike, "an attack on Islam". Not to mention how little it takes to call it an attack or an insult against Muhammad, which is even worse (because Muhammad is the weak link in Islam, and not the slightest doubt can stick to him - then the very foundations of Islam crumbles. This because all the religion rests on only one presumption: That Muhammad was perfect in everything, and consequently that everything he said and did was true).

**008 2/191: "And slay them (the non-Muslims*) wherever ye catch them - - -". A straight, no-nonsense order - not to be misunderstood. Very good words for terrorists.

009 2/191: "- - - and turn them (the ones that fights you - it is not said who are the initial attackers*) out from where they have turned you out - - -". A sentence ordering revenge or to retake what is lost to the enemy before - it may be a dilemma for f. ex. Greece, Balkan and Spain, which for centuries were under Islam. And a good verse for f. ex. terrorists in Spain (but also for others). .

*010 2/191: "- - - tumult and oppression is worse than slaugther; - - -" - but only oppression of Muslims. It is better to kill the non-Muslims than to live suppressed by them - even though the Quran clearly states that in Muslim states the non-Muslim of course have to accept suppression, lack of power of all kinds, and to pay extra and often heavy tax. But then the Quran as clearly states that Muslims are better beings than non-Muslims. (See separate chapter).

There also is the question of who defines what is suppression.

011 2/191: "- - - fight them (non-Muslims - in this case the old regime that still ruled in Mecca most likely*) not at the Sacred Mosque (Kabah*), unless they (first) fight you there, but if they fight you there, slay them." Even at sacred ground it is just to kill. Of course if there really is no way to calm down a situation, what has to be done has to be done. But as a general order as the only answer to use, it tells something about Islam.

Honest words for your money.

*012 2/191: "- - - such is the reward (to be killed*) for those (non-Muslims*) who suppress faith (Islam*)". Honest words - and sugar for terrorists, especially as the terrorists themselves decide who are suppressors "in the widest meaning of the word". Anyone who tells you the Quran has to be disused to incite to hate, war and terrorism - tell them to read the book just once (but without religious or political blindness). Strictly speaking: It is the ones who do not want war - included terrorism - who are wrong according to the Quran.

0Ad 2/195: "And spend of your substance in the cause of Allah, - - - ". This may or may not mean: Give money to the war for Islam. It is likely that it means this, as the same text translated from a Swedish Quran (NB: Certified by Al-Azahr Al-Sharif Islamic Research Academy, Cairo) reads: "Give to (the fight for) the cause of Allah". (It is no secret that many - very many - Muslims give money and help to such fight, included to terrorist organisations.)
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
banker
Posts: 1,370
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11/16/2009 2:38:46 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
013 2/207: "And there are the type of man who gives his life to earn the pleasure of Allah; and Allah is full of kindness to (His) devotees". The ideal way of living is to die for Allah/Muhammad.

And at the same time Muhammad and any later Muslim leaders or terrorist leaders have a cheap, ferocious fighter.

**014 2/216: "Fighting is prescribed for you - - -". Not possible to misunderstand. Muhammad (and his successors) needed warriors, and the good god and the religion ordered the "believers" to go to war. A most good verse for terrorist leaders and some others - f. ex. terrorists. Is there anyone who said one had to disuse the Quran to start fighting and killing?

015 2/216: "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it." Still not possible to understand: You should go to war when Muhammad calls you, whether you like it or not.

016 2//216: "- - - But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you (to fight in war*), and that you love a thing (peace*) that is bad for you." No comments except a question: Did you ever meet a person telling Islam is a peaceful religion?

017 2/217: "Fighting therein (in holy months - the old Arabs had 4 holy months a year in which fighting and war was prohibited and a grave sin*) is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque - - -". Muhammad's highwaymen had attacked and plundered a caravan from Mecca during a holy month and Muhammad received a storm of critic. But his/Allah's reply was that as Mecca denied the Muslims access to the Kabah (this was before Muhammad had taken Mecca), they were bad people. And then even a grave sin made by Muhammad was no sin. Convenient.

Read by a terrorist today: Whatever you do against someone not obeying Islam - or worse; oppose it - is no sin.

Verse 216 and 217 tell that very few things are holy if the interests of Muhammad/Islam can be strengthened.

*018 2/217: "Tumult and oppression are worse than slaugther". Unrest and oppression against the Muslims are no good - it is better that the Muslims in case kill the opponents (in this case it was about the old regime in Mecca - still not overrun - but other verses in the Quran make the order general. See the first comment under 2/191). Nice "food" for terrorists - the West is suppressing Muslims they say, and as everybody there pay taxes (not true - and the ones that do, have to) to their Islam-suppressing regimes, everybody is guilty, and deserves to be killed.

019 2/218: "- - - those (Muslims*) who suffered exile and fought (and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah - they have the hope of the Mercy of Allah: - - -". Fight for Allah and be likely to go to Paradice (and if you are killed for Allah, you are sure to go there).

020 2/244: "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah heareth and knoweth all things". - - - And rewards all things.

0Ae 2/245: "Who is he that will loan Allah a beautiful loan, which Allah will double unto his credit and multiply many times?" Some say the "beautiful loan" is good deeds, others that it is warriors offering Allah and Muhammad their lives in war (actually this is the normal meaning), even others say it means lending money to the warring prophet Muhammad - and later his successors - as war cost money. No matter it was good for Muhammad - and his successors - what was to be repaid in next life, did not have to be repaid - or paid - by Muhammad or his successors (or terrorist leaders) in this life. A cheap way of getting warriors.
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
banker
Posts: 1,370
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11/16/2009 2:39:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
021 2/246: "How could we refuse to fight in the cause of Allah." The Quran pretends Jews are saying this to one of their prophets (most likely Samuel*), but it really is included as a pep talk to Muslims inspiring them to war. The text is somewhat changed compared the one in the Bible, where it comes from.

022 2/249: "How oft, by Allahs will, hath (not*) a small force vanquished a big one? Allah is with those who steadfastly persevere". The start is pep talk for the warriors. The last is pure psychology - you meet similar sentences time and again and again in the Quran. The warriors, terrorists and others are inoculated that: Fight on, and you may win in the end. Something the Soviet Union should have remembered before they invaded Afghanistan. And something Bush should have been told, when his general told him it would take 700ooo troops to conquer and pasify Iraq - Bush instead choose another general and sent only ca. 1/3 as many troops - - - and ended in a quagmire. It also is something all non-Muslims should remember. In their own home country and outside.

023 2/251: "By Allah's will they (the Jews) routed them (the Philistines); and David slew Goliath and his forces". A story borrowed from the Bible - with a twist - used as pep talk for Muslim warriors - it was their own god, Allah, that did the work.

0Af 2/262: "Those who spend their substance in the cause of Allah, - - - for them their reward is with their Lord (Allah*)". 2/195 and 2/245.

0Ag 2/265: "- - - those who spend their substance, seeking to please Allah and to strengthen their souls - - -. Allah seeth well whatever ye do". See 2/195 and 2/245.

Year 622 AD early Medina, surah 8 (090).

024 8/1: "They (the warriors*) ask thee (Muhammad*) concerning (things taken as) spoils of war (riches and slaves*). Say: (Such) spoils are at the disposal of Allah and the Prophet (Muhammad*)". This is one of the rules Muhammad or the omniscient Allah had to change later - in the end Muhammad only got 20%. (Islam has another explanation - all belongs to Allah, but 80% may be given to the warriors and to their leaders). The rest was for the warriors and their commanders. You meet Muslims saying Allah/the Quran never changed anything, but here is one point that later was changed. Often Muslims explains changes with that the rules really were not changed, only made stricter or clarified (why should that be necessary for an omniscient god?) Here is an absolute rule that later had to be changed - the warriors demanded their share of the spoils.

025 8/9: "I (Allah*) will assist you (Muslim warriors in battle*) with a thousand of angles, ranks on ranks". A good pep talk for naïve, uneducated believers.

026 8/15: "When ye (Muslim warriors*) meet the Unbelievers in hostile arrays, never turn your backs to them". Fleeing warriors were of no value to Muhammad and other leaders.

027 8/16: "If any (Muslim warrior*) do turn his back to the (the enemy*) on such a day (during battle) - - - he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell - - - ". Fight for Allah and Muhammad or end in Hell. One verse is the carrot, this one the whip. War is a central part of the life and the religion.

028 8/19: "Not the least good will your (the enemy's) forces be to you even if they were multiplied: for verily Allah is with those who believe". Perhaps discouraging the enemy, but surely encouraging his own warriors. "Gott mit uns." Just this one is as old as the oldest religion - and still valid for everyone who believes it, and the uneducated, naïve early followers did believe - - - as do many Muslims even today.

*029 8/38-39: "Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief (= becomes Muslims*)) their past will be forgiven them; but if they persists - - - fight whit them - - -". Muslims like to quote the Quran saying that there shall be no forcing others to become Muslims - it is used as a proof for that such things never happen. But here it is said just the opposite: Become Muslims or fight. This in reality was often the choices the other part had: Come to Islam or die - though it should be mentioned that this mostly were the case when Islam waged war on pagans, not so often when the other part were Jews or Christians - though this, and also pogroms, happened. Some Muslim wars of conquest were rather bloody - also after the victory.

These two verses are interesting because:

I. They oppose another verse - which the Quran, Islam and Muslims say never happen.

II. They prove that force may be used to convert people to Islam.

III. They tell that refusing to convert to Islam is a valid reason for attack according to the Quran.
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
banker
Posts: 1,370
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11/16/2009 2:40:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
**030 8/39: "And fight with them (the Unbelievers who will not convert to Islam*) on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere". Comments should be unnecessary. Fight war till Islam dominates everywhere.

031 8/41: "And know that out of all the booty ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah". One more good reason for waging war. And the Quran tells it confirms the Bible - who has found anything like this in NT? Stealing and plundering to make yourself and Allah/Muhammad (or his successors) rich and powerful also in this life.

But this verse is interesting also for another reason: Allah/Muhammad already has had to change the words of Allah; In 8/1 (Remember here that the surahs were not "sent down" as complete surahs, but a few verses now and a few verses then, and only later puzzled together - to a large part not until the Quran was constructed around 650 AD - some 20 to 46 years after Muhammad told them. Also according to Yusuf Ali 8/1 belongs to an entirely other section (section 1) than does 8/41 (section 5) for what that information is worth.) In 8/1 everything stolen belongs to Allah, but the warriors wanted their sizable share. An omniscient god - that also has full knowledge of the future - should have known this and not have had to change the rules because of failing and learning.

032 8/65: "O Prophet! (Allah says*) Rouse the Believers to the fight." Some words for a presumably good and peaceful god. And some task for a god and perfect kind man representing a religion insisted to be a good, human and peaceful one.

033 8/65: "If there are twenty amongst you (Muslim warriors*), patient and persevering (this (to be patient and persevering*) is impressed and impressed on Muslim warriors and terrorists - a fact non-Muslims tends not to know or to forget*), they will vanquish two hundred (non-Muslims*), if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are people without understanding". A good pep talk, at lest to blind believers. During the civil war in USA the South said something similar - but lost the war. But the Quran is right on one point: Non-Muslims tends not to understand the fanatic and fatalistic way of thinking impressed on Muslim warriors and terrorists - they go on and on and refuse to give in. On the other hand Japanese soldiers were just like that during WWII, but they all the same totally lost the war - even Americans were able to learn.

034 8/66: "- - -but (even so (even if Allah has lightened the fight for you - by sending angle warriors?*)) if there are a hundred of you, they will vanquish two hundred, and if a thousand, they will vanquish two thousand, with the leave of Allah - - -". Another pep talk, and somewhat more 98 realistic than 8/65. Besides: If you loose, know that is was not the enemy that was too strong for you, but Allah in his unfathomable wisdom who wanted it like that. (And Allah always has a good reason leading to a final victory).

But why cannot an omnipotent god just decide how he wants things to be and make it like that? Why has a presumably good and kind and loving god have to let humans live through so much blood and murder and hate and rape and misery? Something in the Quran just does not add up.

***035 8/66: "- - - for Allah is with those who patiently persevere." This is a pep talk all non-Muslims should forever remember - fanatic Muslim warriors never give in and never stops.

And also: How many soldiers in the future did Spain kill by pulling out their few men from the East, and proving to Muslims just these words that are repeated and repeated in the Quran? - a proof that now may be strengthened by Australia.

***036 8/67: "It is not fitting for a Prophet (Muhammad*) that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land". One of the moral and ethical real pinnacles in Islam. It takes an effort - and resources - to take care of prisoners. This Muhammad did not like - and voila! - Allah ordered him to kill all prisoners (of course with the exception of the ones one wanted as slaves or wanted to keep to extort money for from their families).

No doubt at all: A morally and ethically superior god and religion - not to forget the perfect and good and kind and good-hearted Muhammad. (Actually there never were philosophers thinking on morality and ethics in Islam like f. ex. in the old Greece or later in the West. Muhammad just picked from the contemporary traditions - in some cases he picked good ideas, in other cases he chose rather inhuman ideals, and that was it, as it never later has been permitted to think about whether his rules are good - or the best - or not.)

Does anybody wonder why Muslim warriors and terrorists murder prisoners - guilty or not?

***037 8/69: "But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good - - -". This is one more of the moral and ethical pinnacles in the Quran: Wage war, and then it is "lawful and good" to steal and rob and plunder - and rape and take slaves.

But of course this made it easy and cheap for Muhammad and his successors to get warriors.

That such behaviour is a catastrophe for any and all victims - and in some cases set back the civilization may be some hundred years like in Persia - does not count, as non-Muslim "untermench" do not count.

This even more so as for fanatics nearly every situation they do not like, can be defined as war against Islam "in the widest meaning of the word" - not to mention that according to Islam's definition all areas not dominated by Islam are "land of war".

Really a morally and ethical superior religion. And a peaceful one.

038 8/71: "- - - if they (prisoners of war) have treacherous designs against thee - - -". How can an enemy prisoner "have treacherous designs" against someone. Per definition an enemy - even a prisoner - can fight you with different means, but that is fighting, not betrayal. (To betray someone there has to be some sort of positive connection between the two parts - if not it is not betrayal or "treacherous designs").

**039 8/72: "Those who believed - - - and fought for the Faith, with their property (= gave money - like many Muslims even do today*) and their persons (= went to war personally*), in the cause of Allah, as well as those who gave them (warriors, terrorists*) asylum and aid (like what large numbers of Muslims do also today - at least giving money and sympathy and aid to "the cause" included terrorism*) - all these (are good Muslims*)".

Comments unnecessary.

040 8/73: "- - - unless you do this, (protect each others (included warriors and terrorists*)), there would be tumult and oppression on earth, and great mischief (because of the bad non-Muslims*)"

No comments - especially since there is neither suppression, nor mischief in Muslim countries (?).
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
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11/16/2009 2:42:03 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
**041 8/74: "Those who believe, and adopt exile, and fight (and here it is meant by weapons*) for the Faith, in the cause of Allah as well as those who give (them) asylum and aid - these are (all) in very truth the Believers - - -". Adolph Hitler was rather young when he wrote "Mein Kampf", describing his plans and how he worked for to conquer the world in his future - the world did not believe him (no other comparisons intended). The Quran describes how Muslims have to behave, work and fight to dominate the world - does the world believe it and them?

042 8/74: "- - - for them (warriors, terrorist and all their helpers and those giving them aid*), for them is the forgiveness of sins and a provision most generous".

This sentence tells a lot about Islam. And it also is a good pep talk.

It also may explain some of all the help terrorists get from "normal" Muslims.

043 8/75: "And those (non-Muslims*) who accept Faith (become Muslims*) subsequently, and fight for the Faith in your company - they are of you". If you become Muslim and wage war for Islam, you have proved you are a real Muslim. A good kind of proof for any Muslim leader who needs warriors or terrorists.

Year ca. 625 AD most of it. (It may be no. 2 in Medina, but 625 is late), surah 3 (092).

*044 3/111: "- - - if they (the People of the Book = mainly Jews and Christians) come out to fight you, they will show you their backs, and no help will they get". Pep talk for warriors. Not always true.

045 3/122: "Remember the two of your parties mediated cowardice, but Allah was their protector - - - (and they went to battle*) - - -". Pep talk.

046 3/123: "Allah helped you at Badr - - -". This was a battle against the Meccans that the Muslims won, in spite of being outnumbered 3 : 1 (according to Muslim sources - there are no others). Pep talk - he helped you then, we believe, and it is likely he will help you in other battles, too.

046 3/124: "Is it not enough for you (Muslims in battle*) that Allah should help you with three thousand angles (specially) sent down?" Pep talk to warriors - Allah helps you in battle with angle warriors. Morals counts in battle, and battle was essential for Muhammad at this time, though in 625 he might also think about defence against Mecca - they might attack to stop his robbing their caravans.

*047 3/125: "Yea - if ye (Muslim warriors*) remain firm, and act aright, even if the enemy should rush here on you in hot haste, your Lord (Allah) would help you with five thousand angels making a terrific onslaught". Pep talk to warriors - "Gott mit uns". The primitive, uneducated masses of Muhammad's first followers were likely to believe this - especially as they the first more than 100 years often won the battles and the wars. What is worse; some fundamentalists or fanatics may still believe it today.

048 3/140: "If a wound hath touched you (Muslim warrior*), be sure a similar wound hath touched the others (the enemy*)". Keep the warriors bent on fighting on. A peaceful religion.

049 3/141: "Allah's object also is to purge those that are true in Faith (true Muslims) and to deprive of blessing those that resist Faith (the ones not believing or not believing strongly enough in Muhammad)." An answer to the obvious question: Why do Muslims have to wage war and risk their lives, when Allah just could say "Be" and it was? But the answer is not a good one - an omniscient god had known without mass slaughtering (but Muhammad had not gained power without war, if Allah does not exist). Some sort of explanation at least, why war was "necessary".

050 3/142: "Did you think that ye would enter Heaven without testing those of you who had fought hard (in his Cause) and remained steadfast (- they deserve a good place in heaven*)". No comments necessary.

*051 3/146: "How many of the Prophets fought (in Allah's way), and with them fought large bands of godly men? But they never lost heart if they met with disaster in Allah's way, nor did they weaken (in will) nor give in. And Allah loves those who are firm and steadfast." A pep-talk to warriors of all times - never give in, never give up, retreat if you have to, but go on and you will win like the prophets, because Allah will help - - - and sooner or later the lover of religious warriors, Allah, will give you Paradise. Like in the Old Norse religion.

As for prophets, Islam maintains that they have existed to all times and all places - Hadith mention the number 124ooo, but even that is just a symbol for uncountably many. This is not true, because it is not possible to find a single trace of monotheistic prophets (except the few in the Bible) anywhere or any time in any form - history, litteratur, art, architecture, archaeology, or even in folk tales. It is not possible that so many prophets should leave not a single trace - especially the warring ones should leave traces, even if they had no success with spreading the religion.

But Mr. Bush and others should remember this with beeing steadfast.

052 3/147: "- - - help us with those that resists Faith". Allah will help if you fight for Islam - or for Islamic leaders telling they defend Ummah and Islam. Psychologically a mighty incitement and a strength for upping the fighting spirit, especially with uneducated, primitive warriors or fanatics.

053 3/148: "And Allah gave them (the warriors) a reward in this world, and the excellent reward of the Herafter". 80% of the spoils of war - included slaves and women - were for the warriors and their leaders (the remaining 20% were for Allah/the Prophet/the religious leaders - which soon also became political leaders). Women made slaves were fun, because to rape female slavese was your right and no sin. In addition to do battle for Islam was - and is - a "heavy" application for Paradise, and a sure way to get there no matter what kind of life you have led, if you are killed in battle for Islam (which soon also meant - and means - for the leaders).

054 3/148: "For Allah loveth those who do good (in this case: To wage war for Allah and the prophet*)". To do battle for Allah - to burn and kill and murder and destroy and rape for the good deity - is a good thing that Allah loves. Did anyone say that modern terrorists have to twist the words of the Quran to find incitements to their deeds? And also: Muhammad got cheap warriors and gained wealth and power - in wars and robberies that really were illegal according to the Quran, as they in reality were wars of aggression, not really of defence. And they gave him the possibility to rape at least two women - Raihana and Safija.

055 3/152: "Allah did indeed fulfill His promise to you when ye with His permission were about to anhilate your enemy - until you flinched and fell to disputing about the order, and disobeyed it- - -".

This refers to the battle of Uhud - the second battle between the forces of Muhammad and Mecca - 5 km from Medina. In this battle the Meccans had greater forces, but it is a military truth that it is easier to defend than to attack - compare f. ex. to Napoleon vs. Wellington's inferior forces at Waterloo until Blucher and his Germans arrived, or Malta in 1537 - some 25ooo Muslim warriors vs. a little better than 1ooo defenders, where the attackers had to withdraw after many weeks of battle, and lost the hegemony in the Mediterranian Sea. Or for that case Malta during WW2: Small British forces pluss the locals vs. nominally hugely superior Italian and some German forces - but Malta never fell.

At Uhud Muhammad's forces seemed to be winning. But the archers did want to get their parts of the spoils, and left their defending positions - - - and the battle turned. Politely said it ended in a draw, but Muhammad lost lots of men. It got no further serious consequences, though, as Mecca did not come back until much later, and then Medina and Muhammad were prepar
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
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11/16/2009 2:43:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
057 3/155: "Those of you who turned back on the day the two hosts met (300 men left Uhud before the battle, leaving 700 to fight) - it was Satan who caused them to fail, - - -." It is Satan that makes you not want to or too afraid to take part in battles - do you want to be a friend of Satan? A mighty incitement for fighting for Muhammad and Islam (or sometimes for leaders using or disusing the religion for personal gain or power).

058 3/156: "Be not like the Unbelievers, who say of their brethren, - - - ‘If they had stayed with us (out of battle*), they would not have died, or been slain". It is not worty a Muslim to think like that - to do battle for Muhammad is a holy duty - - - and a way to riches and Paradise. Good to know for a terrorist - - - if he really is not misled when he believes he fights for Allah, and if the Quran is true. (The many mistakes in the Quran make one wonder about how true it is.)

**059 3/157: "And if ye are slain, or die, in the way of Allah, forgiveness and mercy from Allah are far better than all they could amass". Nearly no matter how bad a man (nothing is said about women) you have been, to be killed for Allah, is the sure way to go to Paradise.

The old Vikings "knew" that if they were killed, they went to Walhalla - that made them ferocious warriors. In Islam Paradise with its lazy luxury life and plenty of women, had and has the same effect.

There are two questions, though: Who desides which wars are wanted by Allah? - if you look at history, it seems that a lot of the wars Muslims have fought, in reality was for wealth and power, but mostly they have been declared Holy Wars, a few times even by both sides when both parts were Muslims. And: What if the Quran is invented or not telling the full truth? - all the mistakes in the book make one wonder.

In the wars between Sunni and Shi'a and in power struggles among leaders, a lot of warriors have been cheated - both parts in a war between Muslims cannot be fighting for Allah and the "right" belief, but all warriors often were told they fought against enemies of Allah. If at least one part was right, the warriors from the opposite part had a rude awakening in Hell, even if they were told and believed they were fighting enemies of Allah. Not to mention when all was a struggle for power among leaders, and Allah did not agree at all that any of them were fighting for him - they only were sinning by killing fellow Muslims "without a good reason", which is a grave sin worthy of Hell.

And even worse: If the Quran is made up or does not tell the truth on this point, no comment is necessary.

**060 3/158: "And if ye die, or are slain, lo! It is unto Allah that ye are brought together". Be killed in war for Allah, and go to paradise - good "knowledge" for a warrior or terrorist. Whoever said the Quran has to be disused to justify terrorism, hardly ever read the Quran. See also 3/157.

061 3/168: "If only they had listened to us (and not gone to war*), they would not have been slain". That is what hypocrite Muslimss say, according to the Quran - and who wants to be a hypocrite? Good pep talk.

**062 3/169: "Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live - - - in the presence of their Lord (Allah*)". What better can a warrior ask for? - and thinking like that, they made - and make - cheap soldiers for Muslim leaders. But what if Muhammad made it all up?

**063 3/170: The family and others left behind by dead warriors, have no reason to grieve - their dear one - the warrior - is in Paradise. If it really was a war for Allah, and not for power or riches for some leader. And if the Quran speaks the truth on this point at least.
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
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11/16/2009 2:44:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
064 3/171: "They (the "martyrs"*) glory in the grace and the Bounty (silver and brocade and women*) from Allah - - -". The ultimate pep talk: Your son is dead and you will never see him again, and he will never help you in your old age - but he is in heaven according to a book with hundreds of mistakes.

065 3/172: "Of those who answered the call of Allah and the Messenger even after being wounded - - - have a great reward." No comments, except that Muhammad needed only fighting warriors, and he seems to want to use his resources to the outmost.

066 3/173: "Men said to them: 'A great army is gathering against you': - - - but it (only) increased their Faith - - -". Pep talk. Real Muslims are not frightened - and Allah will help. Pep talk incites the warriors to keep fighting, and to wage war, that was of course necessary for Muhammad to gain security, power and riches. Like for many warlords at that time. 102

067 3/174: "And they returned (from war) with Grace and Bounty from Allah: no harm ever touched them - - -". A fairy tale picture of war and easy riches. A good pep talk if the men are uneducated and naïve. Glorifying war and spoils of war attracts new warriors. The larger the "army" the better chance of success and power for leaders.

068 3/175: "It is only Satan that suggests to you the fear (of battles*)". Who wants to be the subject of Satan - it is better to fear Allah and Muhammad and not shy away form fighting.

**069 3/195: "- - - those who have left their homes, or been driven out therefrom, or suffered harm in My (Allah's*) cause, or fought or been slain - verily, I will blot out from them their iniquities, and admit them into (Paradise*)". This has two messages: Persons who are persecuted for being Muslims and also warriors that go out to fight for Islam - they are the same, and both will end in Paradise. Many a terrorist has left his home, he may intend to fight - or call what he dose a fight. With a bit of luck - or on purpose - he may die for the "cause". Excellent - next stop is paradise, nearly no matter what sins you have done before. Did anyone say that the Quran had to be disused to incite to hate, killing, rape, war and terrorism?

Year 625 - 626 AD, surah 61 (093):

**070 61/4: "Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array as if they were a solid cemented structure". The ones who say the Quran is as good as the Bible, not to mention NT, have never read the Quran - which I can say even if I am not very Christian.

A god loving mass slaughter and murderers!!!

If that is a good god, I do hope I never meet a bad one.

And this is the icon and ideal of Islam!

Will you like to live in a Muslim society in a world ruled by such a religion?

And remember: War and hate is only one part of Islam.

Year 625 - 629 AD, (most likely not earlier than 627, as there are references to the last battle with Mecca - the Battle of the Trench), surah 33 (095):

The Muslims got the warning a long time before Mecca and some allied attacked. Advised by a man from Persia (according to the tradition), Salman al-Farisi, the Muslims had time to dig a deep trench all around Medina. As this was a kind of defence never used in the area before, the attackers were totally unprepared for this, and were unable to cross it under fire. They had to withdraw after some weeks - partly because of ice-cold weather. According to the Quran, the Muslims were saved by Allah.

The first 20 verses are mostly a tale about the battle. Then after the battle things happened - Muhammad suspected some Jews to be not reliable, even though they had not participated in the attack. Muslims like to insist the Jews had helped the attackers, but according to others this was not true, and all that happened was because of Muhammad's suspicion. The Muslims attacked these Jews and made them prisoners. Then Muhammad simply let murder all the men - I have seen numbers from 600 to 900, but the most likely number is some 700. Helpless prisoners. Muslims have a tendency to pass over or gloss over this and later similar incidents. Not less do they "explain" or simply skip the rest of that story: Muhammad took all the women and children as slaves - I have never seen a reliable number here, but some 2000 are likely. One of the women, Raihana bint Amr, Muhammad personally "took to his bed" = he raped her and kept her as his personal harem slave. (She was not the only one he raped during his reign.). And of course the Muslims took over all their possessions and fields. Mass murder sometimes is good business. (These attacks on the Jews also made Muhammad economically self sufficient.)

And that was the end of the Jewish tribe of Quraiza.

All this aided by the good and peaceful god Allah:

No surprise that Muslim terrorist murder prisoners even today - they have a good and infallible teacher.
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
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11/16/2009 2:44:53 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
**071 33/26: "And those of the People of the Book (the Jews of the Quraiza tribe - see above*) who had aided them - Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast terror in their hearts. (So that) some ye (the Muslims/Muhammad) slew, and some ye made prisoners." Very simple and "good and lawful" - to quote another verse - mass murdering, enslavement and robbery.

A good and loving god and a peaceful religion - and this was far from the only pogrom in Muslim countries through the times. But it is typical that Allah sanctified the attack only afterwards.

072 33/27: "And He (Allah) made you heirs of their land, their houses, and their goods, and of a land which ye had not frequented (before). And Allah has power over all things". Some rich spoils of war can justify much, and quiet many a man's conscience - especially when a god sanctifies it. Could such things happen today or in the future? - I do not mention names like Darfur.

073 33/61: "- - - whenever they (hypocrites and bad non-Muslims, whoever decides whom they are*) are found, they shall be sized and slain (without mercy). A good verse for many a mullah and imam - and for starting pogroms. What disturbs me is that this may be the future many places.

Year most likely 626 AD most of it, surah 004 (096):

**074 4/66: "If We (Allah*) had ordered them to sacrifice their lives or to leave their homes, very few of them would have done it (also most Muslims do not like war*): but if they had done what they were (actually) told, it would have been best for them - - -". Allah had liked them better if they went to war, and willingly. Like the Old Norse religion, Islam glorifies war, at least war for Allah and Muhammad (and his successors). And like the Old Norse religion, to die in battle meant to go to Paradise. That makes ferocious warriors - and today: Ferocious terrorists. Terrorists often do not qualify for Paradise even according to the rules of the Quran (their "war" is not really jihad, even if their leaders have told them so, and/or they practise their "war" in ways not accepted by the Quran - killing the not guilty, f. ex. - even though the terrorists "define" the victims as guilty - intended self murder, really is said not to be according to Islam, etc.), but as long as terrorists believe they are right, the effect is the same.

*075 4/67: "And We (Allah*) should have given them (the ones reluctant to give their lives, see 4/66) from Our Presence a great reward (if they went to war*)". One of the many incitements to war from a good and peaceful god or religion or prophet. Sometimes I feel that the ugly West may be after all have a better philosophy and ethics. And may be a more human god, even though it is politically correct to dismiss and slander him.

*076 4/68: "And We (Allah*) should have shown them (see 4/67 just above) the Straight Way (= the way to Paradise*) (if they went to war)". War was essential for Muhammad - and still is for some Muslims - and there are lots of incitements to go to war. Like it or not - NT is far, far more peaceful. Yes, even OT, as that tells about old wars, does not incite to war forever. And it is far from true when Muslims tell Islam is a peaceful religion (except towards fellow Muslims of the same sects).

077 4/71: "O ye who believe! Take your precautions, and either go forth (in war*) in parties or go forth all together". Be strong when you attack.

*078 4/74: "Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Herafter". If you are willing to exchange your life here on Earth for a future life in Paradise, you should be permitted to - and qualified to - wage war for Allah. (Only let us hope you are not cheated. If something is wrong in the Quran - and at least a number of facts are wrong - you may be in for quite a surprise. Not to mention what a rude awakening you will have if Islam is a dreamed-up religion, and there is another religion that is true. But in the meantime Muslim leaders have a cheap source for warriors and terrorists).

079 4/74: "To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah - whether he is slain or gets victory - soon shall we give him a reward of great (value) (= Paradise*)". What can be a better reward? And what can be a cheaper way for leaders to get warriors, than promises of payment in the next life?

**080 4/75: "And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah - - -?" This sentence tells more about Islam, than explanations longer than the Quran could do. Actually if the Quran had been published today, it had qualified for lawsuits for incitement to hate, incitement to terror, incitement to war, slander, and incitement to discrimination. Actually in the Netherlands the question of prohibiting the book for just these reasons, have been aired. They will not succeed, of course, as it is religion, but just the proposal tells volumes about how "peaceful" the book is. (The Quran is peaceful inside a Muslim society, but not towards non-Muslims - not even to all Muslim societies, see the strife between Sunni Muslims (that in a little way can be likened to Protestants among Christians) and Shiia Muslims (that in as little a way can be likened to Catholics)).
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
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11/16/2009 2:45:35 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
***081 4/76: "Those who believe (Muslims*) fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith (non-Muslims*) fight in the cause of Evil: so fight ye against the friends of Satan - - -." To say the least of it: The words are not to be misunderstood - fight the non-Muslims, because they are the friends of Satan.

*082 4/77: "Our Lord! Why hast Thou ordered us to fight?" This is a question from a Muslim not wanting to fight - and we should remember that after all they are the majority (but the trouble for non-Muslims is that it is difficult and impossible to know who are terrorists, who are helping terrorists, who give money to terrorists, who has sympathy with terrorism and who are just plain - and often sympathetic - humans). But the verse makes it very clear - as do many other verses in the Quran - that war for the religion is a duty and an order. Who said that terrorists have to disuse the Quran to find incitement and reasons?

083 4/77: Said on behalf of Allah to those who do not want to go to war for Islam: "Short is the enjoyment of this world: the Herafter is the best for those who do right: - - -". And the ones doing right, are those who fight wars for Allah.

*084 4/78: "Wherever you are, death will find you, even if ye are in towers built up strong and high!" This is one side of the Quran's and Islam's predestination: No matter where you are, you will die when the time Allah has allotted you are up. Therefore it is no more dangerous for you in a battle than in your bed - you will not die before your time is up anyhow. Of course it is wrong - if not your intelligence tells you that, it is easy to prove by statistics. But naïve or religiously blind persons may believe it - and then Muhammad got (and gets) the effect he wanted.

085 4/84: "Then fight in Allah's cause - - -". Once more a clear order. See f. ex. 4/78.

*086 4/89: "But if they (the ones not strongly enough believing in Islam and in Muhammad*) turn renegades, size them and slay them: and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their rank. Two quotes from the New Testament: "Love your enemies", "You shall not kill". The ones believing Allah and Yahweh is the same god, has to study psychology.

087 4/90: "- - - if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and instead send you (guarantees of) peace, the Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them)." Positive, if very limited. But it is a question how often even this limited order for peace is respected. How may kidnapped persons fought the terrorists? - they were kidnapped anyhow, and some cold-bloodedly murdered. This not to mention what has happened through the history.

088 4/91: "- - - if they (the non-Muslims) withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace, size them and slay them wherever you get them: - - -". NT: "Turn the other cheek", "Love your enemy", "You shall not kill". The god of the New Testament definitely has a totally different mentality. If Yahweh and Allah are not a case of dr. Jekyll and mr. Hyde, it is not possible it is the same god.

*089 4/95: "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive with their gods and persons (remember; in the Quran strife normally means physical fighting*) than those who sit (at home)." A very clear incitement for going to war. Anyone believing the Quran is peaceful towards any outsider after having red the book, needs help.

*090 4/95: "Unto all (in Faith (= all Muslims*)) hath Allah promised good: but those who strive hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by special reward -." Are any comments necessary? - except f. ex. compare this to NT. The Quran is far more warlike and murder like than NT or f. ex. Buddhism - far more.

And what a nice verse for a terrorist!

091 4/100: "He who forsakes his home in the cause of Allah - - -should he die as a refugee from home for Allah and his Messenger, his reward becomes due and sure with Allah - - -". Even if you do not die in battle, just die in war - f. ex. from illness or accident - it seems like you go directly to paradise. War for Allah really is valuable for Muslims. A fact any terrorist knows - most of them are Muslims.

**092 4/141: "And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way to thriumph over the believers". The development seemed to justify this verse for Muslims for 110 years - they lost battles, but hardly ever a war, at least not as they stormed vestwards. Not until they lost the war in France against Carl Martell in 732. That made an impression - at least for some - and for a time made some doubt the infallibility of the Quran. The same effect - and stronger - one got over the losses against the west during the 1800s and early 1900. Allah - why did he not let them win?

But it is meant as pep talk. And efficient pep talk it really is. Most active Muslims expect to win total power on Earth sooner or later in accordance with Allah's/Muhammad's word.

Will it be like living in Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Turkey, North Pakistan, Libya, Ethiopia, or Iran?
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
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11/16/2009 2:46:49 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Year: Late 628 AD (100):

**093 48/15: "Those who lagged behind (did not take active part in the battle or fight*) (will say), when ye (the "real" warriors*) (are free to) march and take booty (in war) - - -". The stealing and robbing and taking of slaves and women, are for the active warriors only - a huge incentive for poor, uneducated ruffians. Is it partly the same effect we see in Darfur and saw f. ex. In Bangladesh? - easy to find warriors, and most inhuman behavior. May such things happen other places if Islam grows strong enough and fanatics - or the right kind of mullahs or imams - take over the leadership? There are tendencies in London, and many of the 9/11 terrorists came from Hamburg - not to mention the unrest in many cities in France in 2006, and for that case in some a little liberal countries in (North) Africa where fanatics wants to take over power (one exception may - just may - be Turkey, which has been seculare since Ataturk in the 1920s. There may be a chance. Strangely enough also Bangladesh and Malaysia have a small chance to become human democracies - and perhaps Jordan and a couple of the emirates human benevolent dictatorships. But the rest of all the Muslim world either is in the grip of fanatics or is drifting that way at present - towards what some call Muslim radicalism, others Muslim conservatism - likely the most correct expression - and even others Islamism, but which all just are different names for fanatics).

What had the world looked like today if the Muslim world had not petrified into stony fundamentalism and stagnated? - if it was the Muslim world who had developed industry and superior weapons and ways of fighting? You can bet against very heavy odds that the world now had been ruled by imams, and without any realistic chance of ever become a free world.

**094 48/16: "Say to the desert Arabs (but most of the Quran is valid for all people and all times according to Islam*) who lagged behind: ‘Ye shall be summoned (to fight) against a people given to vehement war: then shall ye fight, or they shall submit. Then if ye show obedience (fight*), Allah will grant you a goodly reward (rich spoils of war and Paradise*) - - -" A huge carrot to make fighting attractive - but what peaceful religion goes far out to make war attractive?

***095 48/16: "- - - but if ye (see first part of 48/16 just above*) turn back (refuse to fight*) as ye did before, He (Allah*) will punish you with a grievous Penalty". Very clear words from Muhammad and then Islam: Do battle or end in hell. Some nice religion.

When you see the verse 48/16 as a whole, there is only this conclution possible to draw: A man who says the Quran teaches a human and peaceful and friendly religion towards non-Muslims and some fractions of Muslims, either has not read the Quran, or is deceiving himself, or is lying - and knows he is lying. And any man believing him either has not read the Quran, or is deceiving himself or is naïve.

The same is the only conclution possible after reading the whole Quran, and especially the surahs from Medina - which on top of all dominates over the more peaceful ones from Mecca according to Islam's own rule abrogation, as the ones from Medina are younger.

If a book about politics or any other subject than religion (actually for Muslims religion is politics), inciting so strongly to hate, (religious) racism, suppression (of women and of all outsiders), rape, murder and war, it had been prohibited in all civilized and most little civilized countries. (It is proposed to prohibit it in the Netherlands, but it will not be politically possible to do it).

***096 48/17: "- - -but he (the Muslim*) that obeys Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad*) - (Allah) will admit him to Gardens beneath which rivers flow - - -". The great War God (Allah) and his representative and High Commander on Earth (Muhammad) will admit any dead warrior (aka robber, murderer, rapist, etc., "good and lawful" according to the Quran) to their warriors' paradise with riches and women. Also see 2 x 48/16 just above.

097 48/17: "and he (see first part og 48/17 just above*) who turns back (from doing battle*) (Allah) will punish him with a grievous Penalty." No more comments necessary - but see first part of 48/17 just above + 2 x 48/16 above.

Year 630 - 632 AD, surah 57 (103)

**0Ah 57/10: "And what cause have ye why ye should not spend in the cause of Allah? -For to Allah belonges the heritage of the heavens (plural and wrong*) and the earth."

Scattered many places in the Medina part of the Quran you will find incitements to giving money or spending resourses for Muhammad and the faith. Some places it simply my mean spending for charity to the poor. But mostly it refers to spending for war (in this verse there is little doubt that this is what is meant, as this is a verse glorifying war). Also - and especially when Muhammad talks about "giving a nice gift to Allah", "a beautiful loan" or something similar, it means that you/the Muslims should give their lives for Allah "and his Messenger" (if the Quran is made up, the "gift" is just for Muhammad) and be repaid in the next life - cheap for Muhammad and later Muslim leaders at least.

I have skipped these verses. But thinking it over they are verses meaning much for Muslims giving money to among others terrorists and terrorist organisations. May be I will include some more of those verses if this is ever revised. But remember that there exist a number of sentences like this in the Quran - also economy counts for a leader trying to gain more political or military power.

**098 57/10: "Not equal among you are those who spent (freely) and fought before the Victory (before taking Mecca 630 AD*), (with those who did so later. Those are higher in rank - - - ". It is typical for Islam after 622 AD in Medina, that what counts is not what kind of man (women counts little) you are, what good things you have done - though charity counts some - how you care for your fellow citizens, what is in your heart, etc. What really counts is how eager a warrior you are - and here Muhammad/Allah is giving the early warrior followers some extre praise.

Compare this to NT and see if Allah = Yahweh. Impossible unless Yahweh is mentally ill.

*099 57/10: "Those (the early warrior followers*) are higher in rank than those who spent (freely) afterwards. But to all has Allah promised a goodly (reward)." War - and spending from your possessions for war - is what really counts (this is especially clear as the Quran other places in words not possible to understand says that the ones just giving to and helping, are not equal to the real warriors).

Did somebody say something about a peaceful religion or about a good and peaceful and kind Muhammad?

*100 57/11: "Who is he that will loan to Allah a beautiful loan (= give Allah his life in war*)? For Allah will increase it manifold to his credit, and he will have (besides) a liberal reward." Be killed in war and the god will reward you. This may remind one of the Old Norse religion - but it DEFFINATELY is no confirmation of the Bible, and especialy not NT. And is this a good god?

101 57/18: "For those who gives to Charity, men and women, and loan to Allah a Beautiful Loan, it shall be increased manifold (to their credit), and they shall have (beside) a liberal reward." Well, here at last also the not warriors are included - warriors and all others will get rewards in the next life - with no expences for the warlord Muhammad. (Muhammad in Medina was a typical warlord of his time - like some you even today find in uncivilised parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan. It may be said that he was not worse than other warlords in Arabia at that time, but it definitely is true that he neither was any better, more human nor less bloody. Which he should have been if he had represented a good god).

*Year 631 AD, Surah 009 (1
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
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11/16/2009 2:47:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
*Year 631 AD, Surah 009 (105):

102 9/5: The Muslims and Muhammad had treaties with some pagan tribes who had kept their part of the treaties as promised. Muhammad therefore could not attack them before the time/months of agreement were over, "for Allah loveth the righteous".

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever you find them, and seize them and beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in any stratagem of war".

I. Do you see the sick irony? Your partners - kill them as soon as permitted because they are not Muslims. Can the same happen to others they have treaties with?

II. Pagans - also Arab pagans - got a very rough very treatment often (though modern Muslims never mention that when talking about how well past Muslims trested non-Muslims), frequently they only got two choices: Die or become Muslims - in open violation of the Quran's word about no force in religion. A word they often like to quote today.

III. This verse may be one of the reasons for the Muslims' behavior f. ex. when conquering India (now Pakistan + India + Banglasdesh) and in Africa. There was large-scale mass murder.

IV. It also is a very nice words for terrorists today, as words from one situation in the Quran, normally can be used in similar situations - and Muslim terrorists have no treaties with non-Muslims, and especially not in the West - it is just to start killing, because even if Europeans are not pagans, they are not Muslims. The same goes for their behaviour in f. ex. Darfur.

***103 9/5: "- and lie in wait for them with any stratagem of war".

I. The laws of war have labouresly been agreed on little by litte since the battle of Solferino and before to make war a little less inhuman. Terrorists accept not one single of the rules. The more inhuman the better often. A good religion.

II. This sentence is a clear "go ahead" for terrorists for absolutely any atrocity - in Europe or anywhere.

Nice neighbours (but just remember that only a few Muslims are that kind of neighbours - thogh it may at times be difficult to know which is which, and that is a problem for any non-Muslim).

***104 9/5: Pagans - and sometimes others - often got a rough deal from Muslims. See the other parts of 9/5 just above. The choise often was: Fight and be killed or become Muslims: "But if they (the pagans, etc.) repent, and establish regular prayers (= become Muslims) and practise regular charity, then open the way for them (= let them live*)".

Muslims say that according to the Quran there is no force or compulsion used by Islam to change religion (except pressure, economy, etc. and some pogroms). But this verse say the straight opposite - though I never hear it quoted by Muslims, for some reason or other. But this verse is from so late as 631 AD. According to Islam's rules if two or more verses "collide", the newest of them is the right one and the older ones are invalidated. And this verse preaches: Kill them unless they become Muslims. What is a poor non-Muslim to believe? Especially as we know Muslims under some circumstances are permitted to lie for non-Muslims.

105 9/12: "But if they (the leaders in Mecca*) violate their oath after their covenant - - - fight ye the chiefs of the Unfaithful - - -". Well, for once Muhammed has a valid reason according to the laws of war: A broken covenant may be a reason for resumed war. This is shortly after taking Mecca, and he does not quite trust the old rulers (but the covenant was not broken, and there was no more war over Mecca).

**106 9/14: "Fight them (the "unbelievers"*), and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them - - -". When you fight non-Muslims, you are doing the work of Allah.

Some religion: Hating, fighting, stealing, plundering, raping, enslavement, and murdering are the work of the god.

And remember: The "ethics" in the Quran was for then, for now and for ever - for us and for our children and our decendants for all future.

"What a wonderful world!" to quote Louis Armstrong.

*107 9/14: "(Allah will*) help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of the Believers". To murder or mass murder non-Muslims in battle or other ways - remember that Muslims are ordered to "lie in wait for them with any stratagem of war" (9/5) - will heal the breasts of the good Muslims.

It seems me that Muslims living according to the Quran may be not the best of neighbours. (But again: Remember that only a minority live according to these parts of that book - though our dangerous difficulty is that it often is impossible to know who is who).

108 9/16: "Or think ye that ye shall be abandoned, as though Allah did not know those among you who strive with their might and main ("strive with your might and main" is an expression you meet some times in the Quran - it simply means fight in war)". Rest assured; Allah will help you in war - and give you Paradise when you die. War religions often have this kind of pep talks and of "happy end" - just think about Thor and the Walhalla.

*109 9/19: "Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintainance of the Sacred Mosque (Kabah in Mecca*), equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in Allah and the Last Day and strive with their might and mind (see 9/16 just above*) in the cause of Allah?"

Warriors in Darfur and terrorists anywhere think they are doing a pious service by killing and murdering - - and gang raping like in Darfur and other places where it is more like normal wars, not hit and run - and of course stealing and robbing for "good and lawful" reward also in this world.

Yes, a good and human religion.

And some future for non-Muslims - one place in the Quran, the warriors are reminded that there are places with rich spoils ef war not taken yet.

**110 9/19: "They (Muslims doing good deeds*) are not comparable in the sight of Allah (with the ones killing/waging war for Allah*)". Terrorists and others using weapons and murdering for Allah, are the best Muslims.

Guess if verses like these do their work on some singleminded or fanatic Muslims.

Who said "there are verses in the Quran that can be disused for war and terror"? It hardly is possible to be a really pious Muslim without using weapons against non-Muslims.
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
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11/16/2009 2:48:29 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
***111 9/20: "Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with their might and main (= fight with weapons*), in Allah's cause, with their goods and their persons (= fighting personally in war or terrorism - "any stratagem of war"*), have the highest rank in the sight of Allah - - -".

Terrorists and other warriors are doubtlessly the very best Muslims.

In possible future times of troubles - remember that Muslims are ordered to make Islam the dominant religion and to suppress the members of all other religions - the few (? - 30% of Muslims "understands why terrorists do what they do" according to polls, tough that number varies some*) Muslims living according to the highest "etics" for Muslims, will make a powerful and efficient 5. column in the West and other places. That is a simple military and security fact.

*112 9/20: "- - - they (terrorists/warriors*) are the people who will achieve (salvation)". At least the Quran is honest about some things - just like Hitler was in "Mein Kampf" - - - and few did believe Hitler until it was too late.

*113 9/21: "Their (terrorists/warriors*) Lord (Allah*) doth give them glad tidings of a Mercy (that terrorists/warriors for Allah are forgiven practically any sin*) from Himself (from Allah personally*), of His good pleasure (for the fighting and murdering they have done for the good and kind god*), and the Gardens for them, wherein are delights (earthlike riches and women*) that endures". The ultimate pep talk for war, terror and murder? In the name of a presumably peaceful religion and a kind and good god?

‘114 9/22: "They (terrorists/warriors*) will live therein (in paradise) for ever. Verily in Allah's presence is a revard, the greatest (of all)". Warriors/terrorists are in so high esteem in the eyes of Allah, that they will be invited to live in the parts of paradise that has Allah's presence. (In the Muslim paradise some parts are even better than others - Jesus f. ex. only lives in the 2. heaven, whereas Moses was a better prophet and lieves in heaven number four, and top prophets like Abraham and Muhammad of course in number seven, closest to Allah, who resides above number seven. In addition some regions of the heavens are better than others.

Compared to 9/21 this may be an even more ultimate pep talk.

***115 9/24: "If (your closest family or closest relatives*) are dearer to you than Allah, or His Messenger (Muhammad*), or the striving (waging war*) in His (Allah's*) cause - then wait until Allah brings his Decition (- he will punish you*)". Islam is a religion of extremes. Nothing - NOTHING - can be permitted to mean more for you than Muhammad - and war for Islam - on this earth, and Allah in the possible next.

116 9/25-26: "And Allah did help you in many battlefields and on the day of the Hunayn - - -". Of course a god of war helps his warriors in battle - good pep talk. The battle at Hunayn in 630 AD is specially mentioned. This battle the Muslims were on the point of loosing in spite of heavily outnumbering the enemy, when the battle hardned core of Muhammad's army plus the reality of 3 times as many warriors, finally manage to turn the tide of the battle - but for the morals of the large number of fresh warriors, it of course was better psychology to explain that it was Allah who - as usual - wanted the Muslims to win, and sent down an army of invisible angles fighting together with the Muslims.

117 9/37: "- - - and fight the Pagans all together as they fight you all together (even in the four holy months of old Arabia and of Islam*)". As long as Muhammad talked about real self-defence, this is ok. When they started wars and fought in holy months (or plundered caravans as highway men) - even at pretexts - they broke their own rules. (Muslims recon a year to be 12 moons - not 12 months. Because of that, the Muslim year is shorter than an international year, and consequently the Muslim months drift compared to the international calendar. Because of that also the time of the holy months wary from one normal year to the next - though in the old time the pagan Arabs had leap months. Another effect is that the years run a little quicker in Islam than in the rest of the world. F. ex. there will be more than 1400 Muslim years between 622 AD and 2022 AD.)

118 9/38: "O ye who believe! What is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the Cause of Allah (= to go to war*), ye cling heavily to the earth. Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Herafter?" A very rhetoric question it is very difficult for a really pious Muslim not to answer "no" to. And also a question that tells a lot about Islam.

***119 9/39: "Unless ye go forth (in war/battle*), He (Allah*) will punish you with a grievous penalty (normally in the Quran a synonym for Hell*) - - -". An order not possible to misunderstand for a pious - or fanatic - Muslim.

Yes, a religion built on peace, goodness and heavenly ethics.

120 9/40: "If ye help not (your Leader (then Muhammad - today any religious leader?*)), (it is no matter (for Allah helps*))." This is said partly on a special background, but like so many places in the Quran, it may mean all Muslims at any time.
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
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11/16/2009 2:50:18 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
**121 9/41: "Go ye forth (in war/battle*) (whether equipped) lightly of heavily, and strive and struggle (= fight*) with your goods and your person (= personally*), in the cause of Allah". An order not possible to misunderstand - not even in as peaceful a religion as Islam.

**122 9/44: "Those who believe in Allah and the Last Day ask for no exemtion from striving with their goods and persons (= waging war*)".

If you are a real Muslim, you do not refrain from going to war.

***123 9/44: "And Allah knower well those (the Muslims going to war*) who do their duty". It is not possible to deny - like most Muslims and many politically correct others try to do today - that war (against "unbelievers") is a duty for Muslims. It is impossible to say it more directly than the Quran does here.

***124 9/45: "Only those ask for exemption (from doing battle*) who believe not in Allah and the right day". Terrorists and fanatical mullahs/imams are right and do right according to the Quran.

125 9/46: "If they (the ones reluctant to go to war*) had intended to come out (to the battlefield*), they should certainly have made some preparations therefore; but Allah was averse to their being sent forth, so he made them lag behind - - -". Pep talk about the ones not wanting to go to war ‘do not mind them - they are bad quality Allah did not want' - no reason to loose your nerve.

126 9/47: "But Allah knoweth well those who do wrong (= those not wanting to go to war*)". The terrorists are right: It is not the terrorists who do wrong, it is the ones reluctant to murder and kill and fight. Really a religion for peace and goodness.

127 9/49: "(Some say*) ‘Grant me exception (from going to war*) and draw me not into trial'. Have they not fallen into trial already?" The Muslims not wanting war are already judged and doomed.

‘128 9/51: "Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us - - -". To do battle is not more deadly than sleeping in your bed, as Allah already has decided your hour of death. Naïve and uneducated people and religious fanatics may really believe this - in those cases it is one terrific piece of pep talk for doing battle.

***129 9/52: "Can you expect for us (any fate) other than one of the two glorious things - (martyrdom or victory)?"

A warrior or terrorist can only win.

Well, he may become an invalid f. ex. and live a long life in misery - but that is never mentioned.

Also the Quran NEVER mention that the non-Muslims are humans or what the devestation of their culture and lives means to them - it is of absolutely no concequence and without the slightest interest. The destruction of Persia - and for that case the East Roman culture or the terror in Pakistan/India - represented long series of terrible dramas and catastrophes for people and culture and sciense, but the only things that counted - and still counts - for Islam, was a lot of spoils of war - and power and riches for their leaders, and like it or not: Frequently forcing people to become Muslims - frequently by weapons, and always by social and other pressure and by extra tax, often high. Even today I have never met a Muslim able to see that side of their wars or murders or suppression, not to mention what rape and enslavement meant to millions of victims - never to this day, not one single time. Only in the western culture the ability to see that is widespread - a military weak spot, but one of the few points that perhaps makes the western culture better than some others of the big ones. (To say anything good about the West is politically incorrect, but I do not care for what is politically correct - I am able to think myself, and what counts is what is correct, not what is politically correct).
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
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11/16/2009 2:50:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
***130 9/73: "Strive (fight*) hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them." Straight words for your money.

131 9/81: The ones not willing to do battle may end in hell.

132 9/83: The ones not willing to do battle are to be socially despised.

133 9/84: "Nor do thou ever pray for any of them (those that did not want to go to war*) that dies, nor stand at his grave, for they rejected Allah and (not least?*) His Messenger (Muhammad*), and died in a state of perverse rebellion." It is perverse not to obey when Islam wants war. If not the carrot of stealing riches, taking slaves and raping women should attract the ones reluctant to go to war, then use heavy social pressure to force them. War is very essential for the Quran. And "is", not only "was" - "is" for all future.

**134 9/85: "Allah's plan is to punish them (the ones not wanting to go to war*) with these things in this world, and that their souls may perish in their (very) denial of Allah". Refusing war means:

I. Social contempt.

II. To most likely end in hell.

III. To deny Allah.

Is it possible to put more social and religious pressure on a man to make him go to war - willing or not? Anyone saying Islam is peaceful, either has not read the Quran, is repeating "correct" words but wrong meanings, or is a Muslim (who believes it or not believes it).

135 9/86: "When a surah comes down, enjoining them to believe in Allah and strive and struggle (= make war*) with His Messenger (Muhammad*) - - - (some do not want to go to war - they prefer to stay with the women, not a nice reputation for an Arab in 631 AD, not to mention for a beduin*)".

136 9/88: "But the Messenger (Muhammad*), and all those who believe with him, strive and struggle with their wealth and their persons (= wage war*): for them are (all) good things (like spoils of war, slaves, women to rape, etc.*): and it is they who will prosper"

To say the least of it: Incitement to wage war for Muhammad/Islam.

137 9/89: "Allah hath prepared for them (his warriors/terrorists) Gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein: that is the supreme felicity".

Once more - to say the least of it: Incitement to wage war for Muhammad - and for Allah if he exists.

138 9/93: "The ground (of complaint (for not wanting war*)) is against such as claim an excemption while they are rich - - -". If you can afford to go to war - or if someone, included the leaders (see 9/92) can help you - then it is a valid reason for complaint and contempt if you do not want to go to war.

A stark contrast to NT: "Thou shallt not Kill".

139 9/94: Do not believe the excuses from the ones not wanting to go to war - the real reason is that they are bad Muslims.

A good Muslim goes to war whenever his leaders call.

***140 9/95: "So leave them (the ones not wanting to wage war*): for they are an abdomination, and Hell is their dwellign-place - a fitting recompence for the (evil) they did". Not to hate and kill and steal and rob and rape and enslave and murder is an abdomination and evil. In that way the raise of pover for Muhammad and Islam would go slower?

To wage war is the absolute duty for any fit Muslim who can afford it. No misunderstanding possible.

Brave future world.

Do you still believe that allah is the same god as the yahweh in nt?

*141 9/96: "- - -Allah is not pleased with those who disobey (and refues war*)". The good, kind, wise god.

**142 9/111: "Allah hath purchased of the Believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the Garden (of Paradise) - - -". This may be a good deal for you and for Muhammad if Allah exists, and really is a bloody enough god to want this. If Allah does not exist, it ONLY is a good deal for Muhammad and his successors - and for a lot of religions there is every reason to believe the gods are made up, and the only ones who profit are the religious leaders. (For Islam this is in reality proven - no omniscient god makes that many mistakes like what you find in the Quran).

143 9/111: "- - - they (warriors/terrorists*) fight in His (Allah's (or Muhammad's?*)) cause, and slay and are slain: (and get great reward in Paradise*)". Can anyone really read the Quran - even a Muslim - and afterwards believe the Quran represents a good, peaceful, perfect god? One is reminded of the blood orgies of the Mayas and Incas, except Islam mostly kills at the spot - like the Assyrians.
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
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11/16/2009 2:51:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
**144 9/111: "- - - they fight in His (Allah's*) cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran - - -". This is not even is wrong - it is nonsense, and can only be made up by someone not knowing the Gospels. There is nothing like this in the Gospels - this even if Islam pretends the text refers to a Gospel that has disappeared (there are references to the word "sword", but not as part of war or incitement to war. There is a theoretical possibility for that there existed an older Gospel, but this fairy tale or nightmare is not taken from that one either. Because it it ever existed, we know the contents of it, as three of the present Gospels in case used that one as their main sourse (the other theoretical possibility is that two of those Gospels used the oldest one as their source - in that case there is no reason to believe there ever was older Gospel, but it is to be hoped there was, because that gives an even older written source for the Bible - and makes it even more reliable according to all rules for study of history and for such science. By the way: No serious student or professor of history use the Quran as a source for happenings older than 610 AD - which tells volumes about how they evaluate the reliability of this book presumably sent down by an omniscient god).

But the real reason why it is not the slightest doubt that this is made up, is that the sentence so totally and 180 degrees oppose the very teachings of the NT - and all the NT - that the statement is not even a lie, but made up propaganda for war.

145 9/120: "It was not fitting for the people of Medinah and the Bedouin Arabs of the neighbourhood, to refuse to follw Allah's Messenger (to wage war*) - - - ". But it is fitting for Islam to steal and rob and kill end enslave and suppress. What then about "let there be no compulsion in religion" or in religious wars?

And it was "fitting" to make Muhammad a powerful warlord.

146 9/120: "It was not fitting for (them - see first part of 9/120*) to refuse to follow Alla's Messenger, nor to prefer their own lives to his - - -".

Incitement to war. What does just this tell about Islam? And what it does tell about Muhammad and Islam is that the Quran is - not a fairy tale, but a demon tale?

And: Make Muhammad a powerful warlord! Hitler said similar things (actually some intellectuals compared nazism to Islam before 1939.)

147 9/120: "- - - (not*) to refuse to follow (in war) Allah's Messenger (Muhammad*), nor to prefer their lives to his: because nothing could they suffer or do, but was reconed to their credit as a deed of reightousness - - - in the cause of Allah - - -".

A testimony of religious blindness and darkness worthy any of the most blody pagan religions - or modern sects praying to the Devil for a god. Or the darkest sides of Nazism or communism.

148 9/120: "- - - (suffered*) in the Cause of Allah, or trod paths to raise the ire (not in self defence*!!!) of the Unbelievers, or received any injury whatever from an enemy. For Allah suffered not the reward to be lost to those who do good - ".

To wage war, with all the destruction and suffering that means, is to do good things in the eyes of Allah and Islam/the Quran.

Make your own comments. Think your own thoughts.

Allah = Yahweh in NT?

149 9/123: "Fight the Unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know Allah is with those who fear Him (= the Muslims*)". If I do not like what you do - or if I use a little conspiracy theories, like Muslims and especially the ones in the Middle East often do, and think you are up to bad things, you surely are girding me about, and it is my right according to the Holy Quran to kill you.

I hope none of the Muslims in my neighbourhood thinks like that. The problem is that many proven Muslim terrorists also were thought to be good persons - it is not possible to know who the few are. How do you see the difference between a human and an inhuman Muslim? Like the ones who filmed victims they burned alive.

Year 632 AD, surah 5 (107):

150 5/35: "Do your duty to Allah, seek the means of approach unto Him, and strive with might and mind (= make war*) in His Cause: that ye may prosper". You prosper if you do like this. Actually Islam after a few centuries found that there was no prosperity in thinking and researching and studying - except studying and repeating the religion.

151 5/54: "- - - fighting in the way of Allah - - -". Unlike when you fight for Jesus and Yahweh with your brain and words and good deeds, when you fight for Muhammad and Allah you fight with weapons and wage war and terror - a laudable thing to do. Or?

Year not known, surah 13 (109):

152 13/41: "See they (non-Muslims*) not that We (Allah/Muslims*) gradually reduce the land (in their control) - - - ".

A fitting and thought provoking last vers about war and Islam/the Quran.
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
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11/16/2009 2:52:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Reading the Quran's thoughts, orders, incitements, glorifying, and threats concerning Muslims' duty to wage war, is very thought provoking.

Islam and Muslims tell and tell and tell what a good and peaceful and perfect religion Islam is. Many Muslims even honestly believ it - they have never read the whole Quran, or they are religiously blind, seeing only what they want to see. Or may be they rationalize all of it as being self defence, no matter what aggression it really was - words are cheap and things can be "explained". Though from 622 AD the Quran impresses and impresses hate and stealing and rape and war.

But it is impossible that the leaders and the ones that have studied the Quran does not know it - though some weak souls may have glossed it over or let only the verses they want to see, count.

But the real, intelligent leaders know it:

The Quran does not tell about a peaceful, good, and benevolent god or religion. It tells about a religion founded on and bent on power and war and blood and the devil take - in a double meaning - the ones not strong enough to resist "our" armies and terrorists. Any tactic of war is permitted and glorified. Not only that: War is a holy duty duty for all Muslims - a duty that is impressed and impressed and impressed, and sweetened with promises and painted black with heavy threats. Not to mention the attractive promices of "good and lawful" stealing, plundering, raping, slaves, concubines and riches in this world.

All this for a god the first chapter proves with mathematical certainty cannot be an omniscient god. No - NO - omniscient god makes that many small and big mistakes. Absolutely no omniscient god - not even a baby dwarf god hidden somewhere in the Aldebaran region, does that. An omniscient god simply makes no mistakes at all - and in the Quran lots and lots of mistakes are plain for anyone to see, except for the religious blind.

Worse: No omniscient god would use wrong facts as "signs" or "proofs" for his existence - and especially not wrong facts or other logically invalid arguments (which there are lots and lots of in the Quran) which he had to know sooner or later would be looked through and destroy his credibility.

No, Allah - if he existe - is proven by the Quran to be a not omniscient god.

But he may be a minor one - not omniscient nor omnipotent (if he had been omnipotent he could easily have proved it, instead of using a lot of fast talk - and even fast talk that at points were psychologically wrong (f. ex. that to make a wonder or two would impress nobody)) - trying to bluff and bully his way to prominence.

He may even make it, thanks to ruthless, inhuman methods.

But a far more likely explanation is that the religion is not from a god at all. The fact that so many of the mistakes are in total accordance with what the science at that time believed, indicates very strongly that Islam is made by someone living at that time - be it Muhammad himself or some accomplice.

More facts strongly indicate the same: Surahs often appeared after a crisis had happened. A god had sent it in time to avoid the crisis. Family problems Muhammad had also were in the "much revered Mother Book" in Allah's heaven. Think of a holy book - so holy that it is highly revered by a god - that is made by a god or even has existed from eternity - discussing Muhammad's problems with his women, or scolding his personal petty enemies (surah 111) - - - and laugh.

And according to Islam there have been 124ooo prophets and messengers throughout time. But nearly all the Mother Book is made for Arabia and Muhammad. What about all the others? - only a very few has got any guidance, or are mentioned at all. Normally the first prophets would need most guidance. In the presumed Mother Book nearly only Arabia and Muhammad matters.

But if Muhammad or a helper made it up - like many other makers of new sects or religions - everything suddenly fit and make sence.

Muhammad was intelligent enough for that, and as a former salesman he knew a lot about people. Add enough ruthlessness and desire for power + som luck, and that is it.

But if that is the explanation, what then about all the Muslims if there exists another, true, religion?

At least these 3 chapters should be printed, as a book or a booklet reaches much farther in some societies than internet - too many have no access. For "normal" print shops it may be too dangerous to do it. But underground printers - or printers with special themes - it should be possible. The danger by printing it tells volumes about islam: their arguments are not stronger than they have to terrorize and kill to "defend" what they want to believe - and especially to deny and refuse any questions about the religion's weak spot: muhammad - a rather dubious man who proclaimed himself to be an infallible prophet (like many others have done). And it tells many more volumes about a possible future where islam dominates earth - a black, bleak, stagnant earth dominated by brutal suppression from "big brother"- or like under hitler or stalin or mao - at times with pogroms even like under pol pot - or under al quaida or under turkey for the armenians

If you run the risk, just go ahead and print it - parts of the book (f. Ex. These first 3 chapters) or add the chapters about muslim points of view on unbelievers or the entire book. But be careful and take precautions. Like Hitler and Stalin and Mao, islam is goodness worn like thin disguise sometimes.
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
banker
Posts: 1,370
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11/16/2009 2:52:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
EIN UMMAH, EIN BELIEF, EIN FUHRER!". (Ummah = Muslim nation).

There also is one fact people should beware of: This perfect religion is trying to make the United Nations make it an international law that it is prohibited to "insult other religions' prophets" - I think they also include religious symbols. Of all prophets and religious symbols in the world, only Muhammad needs such a law - and that law must be so wide and so vague that also full truths about him will be prohibited - he was really a rather dubious character, but on this dubious character all Islam rests.

If we permit such a law to pass UN, you can be 100% sure that anything that is not flattering the - according to the propaganda - saintly Muhammad, will be defined as insult or slander to Muhammad and prohibited by Islam. Even if you like me just quote Islam itself (but without the glossing over the harsh reality).
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
leet4A1
Posts: 1,986
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11/16/2009 3:21:14 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/16/2009 2:54:27 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
That's alotta text you just posted.

I felt like copypasta for lunch too.
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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11/16/2009 3:36:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/16/2009 2:54:27 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
That's alotta text you just posted.

Combo breaker.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
leet4A1
Posts: 1,986
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11/16/2009 3:41:46 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/16/2009 3:40:25 PM, Mirza wrote:
I read it all through. In my imagination.

Was that funny in your imagination?
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
banker
Posts: 1,370
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11/16/2009 3:51:02 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I believe after you all are finished killing the massenger , you will respond to the massage...!
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
leet4A1
Posts: 1,986
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11/16/2009 3:54:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/16/2009 3:51:02 PM, banker wrote:
I believe after you all are finished killing the massenger , you will respond to the massage...!

Nobody cares dude. Sorry.

What is your point in posting this? To show that the Quran instructs Muslims to kill infidels? No sh*t. What do you propose we do about it?
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/16/2009 4:02:10 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/16/2009 3:51:02 PM, banker wrote:
I believe after you all are finished killing the massenger , you will respond to the massage...!
I follow all verses of the Qur'an as much as I can. Show me a verse promoting violence on innocent people and I'll go hurt someone. Hurry up, the bomb is about to detonate...
banker
Posts: 1,370
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11/16/2009 4:05:19 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Seriously, insert. Is this the only reason you use islam, to attack Infidels? Get a hobby or something.
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/16/2009 4:07:55 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/16/2009 3:41:46 PM, leet4A1 wrote:
At 11/16/2009 3:40:25 PM, Mirza wrote:
I read it all through. In my imagination.

Was that funny in your imagination?
No, pretty boring because this is what we have heard of since 9/11, unfortunately.

I would like to respond to all of these worthless claims, but that is a waste of time. Banker posted similar things before, which I rebutted, but for no befit to him.

http://www.debate.org...
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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11/16/2009 4:13:26 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/16/2009 4:05:19 PM, banker wrote:
Seriously, insert. Is this the only reason you use islam, to attack Infidels? Get a hobby or something.

Nice comeback, but no, you still fail.

Also, who said I was attacking "infidels"? I respect all religions. However, what I don't respect is idiots like you taking things completely out of context and using it to make an entire group of people seem evil. Most Muslims are generally peaceful. Go read the Qur'an.