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Islam and Misunderstanding

Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/16/2009 6:18:53 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I am a Muslim, and therefore it is an honour for me to defend my religion. I do not not want to "promote" Islam by creating this topic. Rather, I want to clear any misconceptions. Banker is one of those who need some explanation.

If any of you have any questions regarding Islam, e.g. terrorism and Islam, then feel free to ask me about it.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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11/16/2009 6:26:05 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
-Quran 5:33-
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

Do you believe that the banker or people like George Bush should be executed, crucified, or that their hands and feet should be cut off? Why or why not? If no, then you disagree with the Quran - which makes you an infidel. And you know what happens to infidels. That shall be all.
wonderwoman
Posts: 744
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11/16/2009 6:27:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/16/2009 6:26:05 PM, Nags wrote:
-Quran 5:33-
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

Do you believe that the banker or people like George Bush should be executed, crucified, or that their hands and feet should be cut off? Why or why not? If no, then you disagree with the Quran - which makes you an infidel. And you know what happens to infidels. That shall be all.

pretty tuff words for a unicorn
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/16/2009 6:41:19 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/16/2009 6:26:05 PM, Nags wrote:
-Quran 5:33-
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

Do you believe that the banker or people like George Bush should be executed, crucified, or that their hands and feet should be cut off? Why or why not? If no, then you disagree with the Quran - which makes you an infidel. And you know what happens to infidels. That shall be all.
Is "banker" waging war against Muslims? No he is not. As for George Bush, how do you justify what he did to 1.5 million innocent people?

That verse is not promoting violence towads innocent people at all. It is simply stating how people should be executed. Don't you think Mussolini was punished fairly by getting haged? Yes he was. The same way, when someone wages war against Muslims, do you think the Qur'an will tell us to run away? Thank God it doesn't.

Also, infidels are not to be killed. Who told you that? The Qur'an or CNN? The Qur'an on Fox News? The Qur'an or your neighbour? Nowhere in the Qur'an does it promote killing on any innocent human being, whether he be a Christian, Muslims, or something else.
Harlan
Posts: 1,880
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11/16/2009 7:24:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/16/2009 6:41:19 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/16/2009 6:26:05 PM, Nags wrote:
-Quran 5:33-
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

Do you believe that the banker or people like George Bush should be executed, crucified, or that their hands and feet should be cut off? Why or why not? If no, then you disagree with the Quran - which makes you an infidel. And you know what happens to infidels. That shall be all.
Is "banker" waging war against Muslims? No he is not. As for George Bush, how do you justify what he did to 1.5 million innocent people?

That verse is not promoting violence towads innocent people at all. It is simply stating how people should be executed. Don't you think Mussolini was punished fairly by getting haged? Yes he was. The same way, when someone wages war against Muslims, do you think the Qur'an will tell us to run away? Thank God it doesn't.

Also, infidels are not to be killed. Who told you that? The Qur'an or CNN? The Qur'an on Fox News? The Qur'an or your neighbour? Nowhere in the Qur'an does it promote killing on any innocent human being, whether he be a Christian, Muslims, or something else.

What constitutes an "innocent human being" that shouldn't be killed and what constitutes not?
Mirza
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11/17/2009 3:10:07 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/16/2009 7:24:47 PM, Harlan wrote:
What constitutes an "innocent human being" that shouldn't be killed and what constitutes not?
[Qur'an 60:8] "Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just."

There are many verse similar to this one. An innocent human being is one who does not wage war against Muslims. Also, the beloved prophet used to eat with Jews, take loans from them, and from other non-Muslims, so how do you think he thought of non-Muslims? Peacefully, of course. If the Qur'an instructed him to kill infidels, he would do it, and not help them out, and receive help from them.

[Qur'an 60:2-3] Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to Allah's will) in Islam. (3)Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them).

[Qur'an 2:256] "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."

[Qur'an 10:99] "And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?"

[Qur'an 5:28] "If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds."

[Qur'an 5:32] "On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land."

We Muslims gain peace in our hearts, not hate, when we recite the Qur'an and listen to a recitation. Watch the video and see what feelings come us near; hateful or peaceful.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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11/17/2009 8:17:21 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/17/2009 3:10:07 AM, Mirza wrote:
There are many verse similar to this one. An innocent human being is one who does not wage war against Muslims. Also, the beloved prophet used to eat with Jews, take loans from them, and from other non-Muslims, so how do you think he thought of non-Muslims? Peacefully, of course. If the Qur'an instructed him to kill infidels, he would do it, and not help them out, and receive help from them.
[Qur'an 60:2-3] Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to Allah's will) in Islam. (3)Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them).

[Qur'an 2:256] "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."

[Qur'an 10:99] "And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?"

[Qur'an 5:28] "If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds."

[Qur'an 5:32] "On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land."

We Muslims gain peace in our hearts, not hate, when we recite the Qur'an and listen to a recitation. Watch the video and see what feelings come us near; hateful or peaceful.

Sure, the quran does not force religion upon others. However, they are very clear about how Muslims should treat believers.

"The disbelievers are an open enemy to you. 4:101"

"So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them. 4:89"

This quote shows how anyone who has ill feelings against you should be killed.

"Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah. 9:29"

"Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you. 9:123
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/17/2009 10:04:22 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/17/2009 8:17:21 AM, tkubok wrote:
Sure, the quran does not force religion upon others. However, they are very clear about how Muslims should treat believers.
Out of context, out of context, out of context ad infinitum.

My message to DDO-members:

(1)I will never fight anybody, except when somebody starts fighting me. (2)So if any of you people use violence against me- (3)I will fight you wherever you are; (4)All until you promise not to hurt me anymore.

See, there is nothing wrong with what I said. However, if you want to imitate a fool, you pick verse 3 out of context, and use it against me.

"Mirza is violent! Look what he wrote in his message to DDO-members: '(3)I will fight you wherever you are'"

"The disbelievers are an open enemy to you. 4:101"
[Qur'an 4:101] "When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies."

This verse speaks about travelers who are allowed to shorten their prayer, if they fear that the enemy should attack them. How about the disbelievers? When are they enemies to us? Let us see what the next verses say.

[Qur'an 4:102] "When thou (O Messenger) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them: When they finish their prostrations, let them Take their position in the rear. And let the other party come up which hath not yet prayed - and let them pray with thee, Taking all precaution, and bearing arms: the Unbelievers wish, if ye were negligent of your arms and your baggage, to assault you in a single rush. But there is no blame on you if ye put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because ye are ill; but take (every) precaution for yourselves. For the Unbelievers Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment."

This verse continues speaking about travelling and prayer, but it explains about the situation too. The other situation is wartime. When in wartime, we are allowed to shorten our prayers because we may be in the battlefield, and might fear an attack from the enemy. In conclusion, it simply means that the unbelievers are enemies to Muslims when they pose a danger to us. This is explained further in the next verse.

[Qur'an 4:103] "When ye pass (Congregational) prayers, celebrate Allah's praises, standing, sitting down, or lying down on your sides; but when ye are free from danger, set up Regular Prayers: For such prayers are enjoined on believers at stated times."

It clearly speaks about Muslims being in danger, because it speaks about prayers just like verse 102 does, but it says, "...when you are free from danger, set up Regular Prayers..." which means that it is a situation of danger posed by the disbelievers, which at that time are our enemies [note that it mentions disbelievers who pose a danger to us, not all of them]. The bottom line is that the Qur'an does not just tell us that non-Muslims are our enemies, but it speaks about wartime, or when they pose a danger to us [i.e. threatening us].

"So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them. 4:89"
Out of context again. The next verse helps a great deal in understanding.

[Qur'an 4:90] "Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them)."

You're trying to turn a peaceful message into a violent one, but you will never succeed. This verse is so peaceful, and explains that if the enemies do not wage war against us, and want peace, then God does not open any way for us to war against them.

This quote shows how anyone who has ill feelings against you should be killed.
Let's see...

"Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah. 9:29"
This is chapter 9, the one I've explained about many times. It speaks about treaties, and other things related to conflict between Muslims and non-Muslims back in the days of the Prophet (peace be upon him). This verse is like verse 5 of chapter 9 which I have explained several times.

[Qur'an 9:28] "O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise."

When the beloved prophet had spread the message of Islam, the non-Muslims went into conflicts with him, and waged war against him and other Muslims. These verses (and others in chapter 9) speak about events of that time. When the non-Muslims broke treaties [i.e. peace-treaties, as 9:1-5 speak about], the Muslims were commanded to defend themselves, and fight the non-believers who waged war against them, until the non-believers called for cease fire.

"Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you. 9:123
This verse, just like all others, are quoted out of context. As you can see, it is found in chapter 9, which generally speaks about the Muslims and non-Muslims in the era of the beloved prophet. In order to understand some verses of the Qur'an, you must read them in context, and some of them have a historical background of revelation, so they need historical explanations. For example, chapter 105 speaks about "the possessors of the elephant", and how God sent forces of birds dropping clay on them, so that their "plan" goes astray. If we want to know what their plan was, we will not find it in that chapter.

[Qur'an 105] "Seest thou not how thy Lord dealt with the Companions of the Elephant? (2)Did He not make their treacherous plan go astray? (3)And He sent against them Flights of Birds, (4)Striking them with stones of baked clay. (5)Then did He make them like an empty field of stalks and straw, (of which the corn) has been eaten up.

From authentic hadith, we know that this chapter speaks about some people who prepared a war against Muslims, and they had some elephants. On their way, God sent forces of birds to destroy them, in order to protect Muslims. Therefore, looking at historical evidence [i.e. when the chapter was revealed], and information from authentic hadith, we know what this chapter speaks about, and what other chapters and verses speak about.

You should understand that Muslims are not allowed to kill innocent people, for if they were allowed to do so, we would not have seen any verse in the Qur'an calling for peace, if the non-Muslims want peace. Also, there are numerous authentic hadith where the prophet (peace be upon him) said that when the enemy is met in battle, innocent people, which are old ones, children etc., are to be saved, not killed. Also, I do not know of one single fair-minded Muslim scholar who has ever promoted violence on innocent people. If you read a translation of the Qur'an in English, translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, you can read his comments on every single verse, and he did not say that any verse promotes violence on innocent people at all, but explained the historical context etc.
resolutionsmasher
Posts: 579
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11/21/2009 6:46:14 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Serious point to bring up here:
You say you would like to separate terrorism from Islam?
Then why did the sect known as Wahabism (that's how you pronounce it, but not how you spell it) steer airliners into the World Trade Centers, when Wahabism claims to be an America loving peaceful sect and is 90% of all muslims in America?
In the relationship between Obama and the rest of the U.S..... I think the U.S. is getting the short end of the hockey stick.
resolutionsmasher
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11/21/2009 6:50:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Next issue.
My brother is a translator and a linguist in Europe. He came across and read an Arabic version of the Quran printed and sold in Iraq. When he compared it to a later printed version of the Quran from America he noticed than not just small gramatical changes had been made, but total changes in ideology that altered the text in a way that most definitly made it more pleasing to the standards of Western culture. Why do Muslims do this if they are a peaceful people with no hateful intentions to hide?
In the relationship between Obama and the rest of the U.S..... I think the U.S. is getting the short end of the hockey stick.
resolutionsmasher
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11/21/2009 6:59:23 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Third and final issue (for now):
My brother wished to clarify this issue and sought out a prestiges Muslim scholar at the area university (Belgium). The two had a deep and interesting conversation over many topics. One of the topics spoken about was the Islamic stance on the nation of Israel. The man was so passionate about the subject that he actually came to the point where he said, "My dream as a passionate Muslim is to one day have the blood of a Jew dripping from my hands." While I beleive that this man was an extremist and that you are in no way neccessarily like him, we must see that with a religion so large as Islam, the probability of their being an extremely large number of those with similar sentiments is basically certain. Seeing as how they claim a similar religion to you and that their feelings are based in their religion, then it must be reasonable to assume that your credibility is rather decreased.

I'm trying to be freindly here and not make any personal accusations. I request that you respond in kind.
In the relationship between Obama and the rest of the U.S..... I think the U.S. is getting the short end of the hockey stick.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/21/2009 11:32:19 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/16/2009 6:18:53 PM, Mirza wrote:
I am a Muslim, and therefore it is an honour for me to defend my religion. I do not not want to "promote" Islam by creating this topic. Rather, I want to clear any misconceptions. Banker is one of those who need some explanation.

If any of you have any questions regarding Islam, e.g. terrorism and Islam, then feel free to ask me about it.

No tried that, you refused to play ball. You either don't believe or don't really know enough on the subject.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Mirza
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11/22/2009 7:37:04 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/21/2009 6:46:14 PM, resolutionsmasher wrote:
Serious point to bring up here:
You say you would like to separate terrorism from Islam?
Then why did the sect known as Wahabism (that's how you pronounce it, but not how you spell it) steer airliners into the World Trade Centers, when Wahabism claims to be an America loving peaceful sect and is 90% of all muslims in America?
"Wahabism" is not a sect as such. And people should not regard themselves as "Wahabists" or "Sunni/Shia", but "Muslims". That is why I chose "Muslim" on my profile, and not "Muslims - Sunni" or "Muslim - Sufi", or something else.

Regarding WTC, I believe in the conspiracy theory, but even if such actions are committed by Muslims, then it doesn't mean that the Qur'an tells them to do such a thing. I see that you're a baptist, so have you heard of Westboro Baptist Church? What they do is monstrous. I have yet to see a Muslim group make numerous hateful websites like they did, e.g. godhatesfags.com, or godhatestheworld.com, or go an picket funerals of dead soldiers. I also haven't met any fair-minded Muslim person support the WTC attacks.
Mirza
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11/22/2009 7:44:17 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/21/2009 6:50:38 PM, resolutionsmasher wrote:
Next issue.
My brother is a translator and a linguist in Europe. He came across and read an Arabic version of the Quran printed and sold in Iraq. When he compared it to a later printed version of the Quran from America he noticed than not just small gramatical changes had been made, but total changes in ideology that altered the text in a way that most definitly made it more pleasing to the standards of Western culture. Why do Muslims do this if they are a peaceful people with no hateful intentions to hide?
As I've said many times, the Qur'an has remained unchanged.

And what you're brother said is not true at all. The Arabic Qur'an is the one who makes us understand what the Qur'an says for real, not any translation of it. If you want to learn Arabic, then read the Qur'an after you have done so, and tell me whether or not there are violent verses.

Why would Muslims like me not kill innocent non-Muslims if the Qur'an told us to do so? Also, it is completely illogical to say that anybody would change the Qur'an to fit the Western culture. Is the Western culture only about not killing non-Muslims? Of course not. So why did nobody change the verses in the Qur'an that prohibit homosexuality, adultery, fornication, nude [or other non-Islamic] appearance in public, and so forth? This is in fact what non-Muslims are mostly against. Just changing "violent" verses and not verses that establish Islamic Law is illogical, so the Qur'an has not been distorted at all.

Regarding violent verses, you should read what the Bible says. The Qur'an tells us to wage war against those who attack us only, and make peace with them if they want peace, but your religion tells us to wage war and even kill innocent people.
Mirza
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11/22/2009 7:47:23 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/21/2009 6:59:23 PM, resolutionsmasher wrote:
Third and final issue (for now):
My brother wished to clarify this issue and sought out a prestiges Muslim scholar at the area university (Belgium). The two had a deep and interesting conversation over many topics. One of the topics spoken about was the Islamic stance on the nation of Israel. The man was so passionate about the subject that he actually came to the point where he said, "My dream as a passionate Muslim is to one day have the blood of a Jew dripping from my hands." While I beleive that this man was an extremist and that you are in no way neccessarily like him, we must see that with a religion so large as Islam, the probability of their being an extremely large number of those with similar sentiments is basically certain. Seeing as how they claim a similar religion to you and that their feelings are based in their religion, then it must be reasonable to assume that your credibility is rather decreased.
I condemn what he said, if it's true. Do you think that the Qur'an tells us to kill Jews or something? The Qur'an actually permits men to marry Jewish and Christian women [unless they are polytheists], so why would it instruct to kill them? And if you knew how the beloved prophet did good things to Jews, you would not say this.

I'm trying to be freindly here and not make any personal accusations. I request that you respond in kind.
I don't want to offend you either, and if I do so, I apologize in advance.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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11/22/2009 10:00:38 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Has anyone else noticed the physical similarities between Godsands and Mirza? I may be on to something here.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
johngriswald
Posts: 1,294
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11/22/2009 10:03:15 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Phil = Godsands = DATCMOTO = Iampanda

begins chant

ONE OF US
ONE OF US
Having problems with the fans site? Suggestions? Can't log in? Forgot your password? Want to be an editor and write opinion pieces? PM Me and I'll get it sorted out.

ddofans.com
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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11/22/2009 10:38:39 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/22/2009 10:03:15 AM, johngriswald wrote:
Phil = Godsands = DATCMOTO = Iampanda

begins chant

ONE OF US
ONE OF US

Ok who are you a reincarnation of again?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
resolutionsmasher
Posts: 579
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11/22/2009 2:32:18 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/22/2009 7:37:04 AM, Mirza wrote:
"Wahabism" is not a sect as such. And people should not regard themselves as "Wahabists" or "Sunni/Shia", but "Muslims". That is why I chose "Muslim" on my profile, and not "Muslims - Sunni" or "Muslim - Sufi", or something else.

Regardless of whether we consider them by sect or religion, they still claim the same religion as 90% of American Muslims and that still bothers me.

Regarding WTC, I believe in the conspiracy theory, but even if such actions are committed by Muslims, then it doesn't mean that the Qur'an tells them to do such a thing. I see that you're a baptist, so have you heard of Westboro Baptist Church? What they do is monstrous. I have yet to see a Muslim group make numerous hateful websites like they did, e.g. godhatesfags.com, or godhatestheworld.com, or go an picket funerals of dead soldiers. I also haven't met any fair-minded Muslim person support the WTC attacks.

Whether the Qur'an tells them to or not doesn't matter. They still did it in the name of Islam, and that still implicates Islam. Christians do many of their faith based actions based on convictions from God in their heart, sometimes doing truly Christian things not found in the Bible. Muslims claim such convictions from God, and so did the terrorists.
In the relationship between Obama and the rest of the U.S..... I think the U.S. is getting the short end of the hockey stick.
resolutionsmasher
Posts: 579
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11/22/2009 2:43:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
For lack of time I will address your other rebuttals later, but here is more info for thought.

Whether it was Morocco or Libya, I can't remember, but when this particular nation was younger it was inhabited by a religion known as Animism (spirits and whatnot). As with most of Africa, Islam began to rapidly expand into its border. When the Islamic population reached near 80% of the entire nation, there was a change in political power to an Islamic leader. Immediately laws were passed that forced all inhabitants to convert to Islam or loose their citizenship. Over time the punishment for not converting grew from loss of citizenship to imprisonment and is now registered at death for all permanent residents of that nation. Please explain this.

Also. A missionary from my church was politically executed in Syria for "propagating a religion other that Islam." That is a quote of his legal charge. There is no explanation for this. Simply put. Islam is a violent and forceful religion that puts on the facade of peace and productivity only to gain a foothold in a nation before assuming its final iron grip on the citizenry.
In the relationship between Obama and the rest of the U.S..... I think the U.S. is getting the short end of the hockey stick.
Mirza
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11/23/2009 8:09:24 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/22/2009 10:00:38 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Has anyone else noticed the physical similarities between Godsands and Mirza? I may be on to something here.
We're both defending our religions, which is a good thing. You're also defending your beliefs, especially freedom, so that's probably good to you too.
Mirza
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11/23/2009 8:23:17 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/22/2009 2:32:18 PM, resolutionsmasher wrote:
Regardless of whether we consider them by sect or religion, they still claim the same religion as 90% of American Muslims and that still bothers me.
Wahabism is not really a sect. And why does that bother you? What kind of a threat do they pose? There are way more terrorists in the U.S. and the entire world who are not Muslims.

Whether the Qur'an tells them to or not doesn't matter. They still did it in the name of Islam, and that still implicates Islam. Christians do many of their faith based actions based on convictions from God in their heart, sometimes doing truly Christian things not found in the Bible. Muslims claim such convictions from God, and so did the terrorists.
It does matter, I can assure you. If they think they are doing a good thing by killing innocent people, and think that the Qur'an told them to do so, then it matters to me and other Muslims, because we do not want to be seen as terrorists, or listen to what people have to say about Islam which is wrong.

Regarding what Christians do, please tell me I either misunderstood what you said, or that you didn't mean it. So Westboro Baptist Church is doing a good, Christian thing? And when they support the 9/11 attacks, college shootings etc., then they're not supporting terrorism in the name of the Bible? Muslims act wrongly, but that does not mean the Qur'an is teaching them to do so. If somebody kills an innocent person in your name, and you never told him to do so, is it then your fault?

You should realize that a Muslim can do wrong things, and it doesn't mean that he is acting upon Qur'anic teachings. And read the Bible. It's full of violent verses. No such verses are found in the Qur'an, even not when the Qur'an speaks about war. So open up the Bible, read some of it, and visit godhatestheworld.com, jewskilledjesus.com, beastobama.com, americaisdoomed.com. You judge Muslims but not these Christians... Is that what you want to debate? And do you know who exterminated the Muslims back in the days Al-Andalus, so almost none of them remained? It was the Christians.
Mirza
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11/23/2009 8:44:23 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/22/2009 2:43:43 PM, resolutionsmasher wrote:
Whether it was Morocco or Libya, I can't remember, but when this particular nation was younger it was inhabited by a religion known as Animism (spirits and whatnot). As with most of Africa, Islam began to rapidly expand into its border. When the Islamic population reached near 80% of the entire nation, there was a change in political power to an Islamic leader. Immediately laws were passed that forced all inhabitants to convert to Islam or loose their citizenship. Over time the punishment for not converting grew from loss of citizenship to imprisonment and is now registered at death for all permanent residents of that nation. Please explain this.
There is no compulsion in religion, as the Qur'an says. Nobody forces you to convert to Islam. What a non-Muslim has to do is to pay a special tax called "Jizya".

Also. A missionary from my church was politically executed in Syria for "propagating a religion other that Islam." That is a quote of his legal charge. There is no explanation for this. Simply put.
Under Islamic Law, nobody is allowed to propagate about their religion, except Islam. This is because violence between Muslims and non-Muslims must be avoided, and Muslims must not be minorities in their own countries, because they are almost minorities everywhere. 50% of all Muslims in the world are minorities in the countries they live, and many - if not most - of them are being insulted and treated unfairly, and not even allowed to wear hijab/niqab in some countries. If Islamic Law allowed propagation of other religions, then Muslims would become minorities, or at least be in clashes with other religious groups, so for the sake of peace, nobody is allowed to propagate about their religion, if it is not Islam.

When the prophet (peace be upon him) spread the message about Islam, the pagans waged war against him, and they wanted to slaughter all the Muslims, so what if some religious groups spread the message about their religion, grew in numbers, outnumbered the Muslims in their own lands, and had power over them? This would be monstrous, and that is why it is not allowed.

And don't tell me you don't agree with that, because I'll tell you soon why you should, regarding your own religion.

Islam is a violent and forceful religion that puts on the facade of peace and productivity only to gain a foothold in a nation before assuming its final iron grip on the citizenry.
Alright, bring violent Qur'anic verse, or read my responses. Now let's head over to the Bible [there are too many versions, so I'll just pick New International Version].

[Exodus 31:12-15] "Then the LORD said to Moses, (13)"Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. (14)"'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. (15)For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.

[Leviticus 20:9] "'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head."

Now to Ezekiel, chapter 9. It starts by speaking about some idolaters who were killed.

[Ezekiel 9:1-10] Then I heard him call out in a loud voice, "Bring the guards of the city here, each with a weapon in his hand." (2)And I saw six men coming from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with a deadly weapon in his hand. With them was a man clothed in linen who had a writing kit at his side. They came in and stood beside the bronze altar. (3)Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the LORD called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side (4)and said to him, "Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it." (5)As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. (6)Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple. (7)Then he said to them, "Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!" So they went out and began killing throughout the city. (8)While they were killing and I was left alone, I fell facedown, crying out, "Ah, Sovereign LORD! Are you going to destroy the entire remnant of Israel in this outpouring of your wrath on Jerusalem?" (9)He answered me, "The sin of the house of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great; the land is full of bloodshed and the city is full of injustice. They say, 'The LORD has forsaken the land; the LORD does not see.' (10)So I will not look on them with pity or spare them, but I will bring down on their own heads what they have done."

Should I go on?
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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11/23/2009 9:35:46 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 8:44:23 AM, Mirza wrote:
What a non-Muslim has to do is to pay a special tax called "Jizya".
That is called Compulsion. I suggest you look up the definition of the word.
Under Islamic Law, nobody is allowed to propagate about their religion, except Islam. This is because violence between Muslims and non-Muslims must be avoided, and Muslims must not be minorities in their own countries, because they are almost minorities everywhere. 50% of all Muslims in the world are minorities in the countries they live, and many - if not most - of them are being insulted and treated unfairly, and not even allowed to wear hijab/niqab in some countries. If Islamic Law allowed propagation of other religions, then Muslims would become minorities, or at least be in clashes with other religious groups, so for the sake of peace, nobody is allowed to propagate about their religion, if it is not Islam.

So the next question would be, are you a supporter of Islamic Law?

[Exodus 31:12-15] "Then the LORD said to Moses, (13)"Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. (14)"'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. (15)For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.
Thats the Old testament.
[Leviticus 20:9] "'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head."
Old testament. Jesus wasnt even alive.
Now to Ezekiel, chapter 9. It starts by speaking about some idolaters who were killed.

[Ezekiel 9:1-10] Then I heard him call out in a loud voice, "Bring the guards of the city here, each with a weapon in his hand." (2)And I saw six men coming from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with a deadly weapon in his hand. With them was a man clothed in linen who had a writing kit at his side. They came in and stood beside the bronze altar. (3)Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the LORD called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side (4)and said to him, "Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it." (5)As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. (6)Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple. (7)Then he said to them, "Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!" So they went out and began killing throughout the city. (8)While they were killing and I was left alone, I fell facedown, crying out, "Ah, Sovereign LORD! Are you going to destroy the entire remnant of Israel in this outpouring of your wrath on Jerusalem?" (9)He answered me, "The sin of the house of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great; the land is full of bloodshed and the city is full of injustice. They say, 'The LORD has forsaken the land; the LORD does not see.' (10)So I will not look on them with pity or spare them, but I will bring down on their own heads what they have done."

Should I go on?

Yes, please Go on. Because those are all Old testament, which are inclusive of ALL THREE abrahamic religions, INCLUDING islam. Unless you are saying that Muhammed directly REJECTED the Torah, you could not possibly use that as an argument AGAINST christianity when it is apart of YOUR religion as well.
banker
Posts: 1,370
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11/23/2009 9:38:48 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 9:35:46 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 11/23/2009 8:44:23 AM, Mirza wrote:
What a non-Muslim has to do is to pay a special tax called "Jizya".
That is called Compulsion. I suggest you look up the definition of the word.
Under Islamic Law, nobody is allowed to propagate about their religion, except Islam. This is because violence between Muslims and non-Muslims must be avoided, and Muslims must not be minorities in their own countries, because they are almost minorities everywhere. 50% of all Muslims in the world are minorities in the countries they live, and many - if not most - of them are being insulted and treated unfairly, and not even allowed to wear hijab/niqab in some countries. If Islamic Law allowed propagation of other religions, then Muslims would become minorities, or at least be in clashes with other religious groups, so for the sake of peace, nobody is allowed to propagate about their religion, if it is not Islam.

So the next question would be, are you a supporter of Islamic Law?

[Exodus 31:12-15] "Then the LORD said to Moses, (13)"Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. (14)"'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. (15)For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.
Thats the Old testament.
[Leviticus 20:9] "'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head."
Old testament. Jesus wasnt even alive.
Now to Ezekiel, chapter 9. It starts by speaking about some idolaters who were killed.

[Ezekiel 9:1-10] Then I heard him call out in a loud voice, "Bring the guards of the city here, each with a weapon in his hand." (2)And I saw six men coming from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with a deadly weapon in his hand. With them was a man clothed in linen who had a writing kit at his side. They came in and stood beside the bronze altar. (3)Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the LORD called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side (4)and said to him, "Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it." (5)As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. (6)Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple. (7)Then he said to them, "Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!" So they went out and began killing throughout the city. (8)While they were killing and I was left alone, I fell facedown, crying out, "Ah, Sovereign LORD! Are you going to destroy the entire remnant of Israel in this outpouring of your wrath on Jerusalem?" (9)He answered me, "The sin of the house of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great; the land is full of bloodshed and the city is full of injustice. They say, 'The LORD has forsaken the land; the LORD does not see.' (10)So I will not look on them with pity or spare them, but I will bring down on their own heads what they have done."

Should I go on?

Yes, please Go on. Because those are all Old testament, which are inclusive of ALL THREE abrahamic religions, INCLUDING islam. Unless you are saying that Muhammed directly REJECTED the Torah, you could not possibly use that as an argument AGAINST christianity when it is apart of YOUR religion as well.

yes islam argue that infidels currupted the bible and are not believing it
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
banker
Posts: 1,370
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11/23/2009 9:40:07 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 9:35:46 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 11/23/2009 8:44:23 AM, Mirza wrote:
What a non-Muslim has to do is to pay a special tax called "Jizya".
That is called Compulsion. I suggest you look up the definition of the word.
Under Islamic Law, nobody is allowed to propagate about their religion, except Islam. This is because violence between Muslims and non-Muslims must be avoided, and Muslims must not be minorities in their own countries, because they are almost minorities everywhere. 50% of all Muslims in the world are minorities in the countries they live, and many - if not most - of them are being insulted and treated unfairly, and not even allowed to wear hijab/niqab in some countries. If Islamic Law allowed propagation of other religions, then Muslims would become minorities, or at least be in clashes with other religious groups, so for the sake of peace, nobody is allowed to propagate about their religion, if it is not Islam.

So the next question would be, are you a supporter of Islamic Law?

[Exodus 31:12-15] "Then the LORD said to Moses, (13)"Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. (14)"'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. (15)For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.
Thats the Old testament.
[Leviticus 20:9] "'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head."
Old testament. Jesus wasnt even alive.
Now to Ezekiel, chapter 9. It starts by speaking about some idolaters who were killed.

[Ezekiel 9:1-10] Then I heard him call out in a loud voice, "Bring the guards of the city here, each with a weapon in his hand." (2)And I saw six men coming from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with a deadly weapon in his hand. With them was a man clothed in linen who had a writing kit at his side. They came in and stood beside the bronze altar. (3)Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the LORD called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side (4)and said to him, "Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it." (5)As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. (6)Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple. (7)Then he said to them, "Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!" So they went out and began killing throughout the city. (8)While they were killing and I was left alone, I fell facedown, crying out, "Ah, Sovereign LORD! Are you going to destroy the entire remnant of Israel in this outpouring of your wrath on Jerusalem?" (9)He answered me, "The sin of the house of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great; the land is full of bloodshed and the city is full of injustice. They say, 'The LORD has forsaken the land; the LORD does not see.' (10)So I will not look on them with pity or spare them, but I will bring down on their own heads what they have done."

Should I go on?

Yes, please Go on. Because those are all Old testament, which are inclusive of ALL THREE abrahamic religions, INCLUDING islam. Unless you are saying that Muhammed directly REJECTED the Torah, you could not possibly use that as an argument AGAINST christianity when it is apart of YOUR religion as well.

by the way look how uncurrupt people take care of kids islam torturing kids
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
resolutionsmasher
Posts: 579
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11/23/2009 7:37:19 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
You people just don't get it do you.

First of all their are serious and unacceptable differences between the NIV and the one true English version of the Bible: the Old King James Version.

Not withstanding, your thoughts that God kills people who don't worship him is false. Even in the OLD TESTAMENT you can find limitless examples of God's eternal mercy to his people. This brings me to another point. The people who are ordered dead in the old testament are the Jews themselves. They are the one's who chose to agree to God's Law and its consequences: "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." -Joshua- When the people of God forsook him and went back to idol worship they forfeited all form of innocence and justice. They DESERVED to die. And yet even when God should of killed them all, he had mercy on them and consistently allowed them to continue.

God gave you a free will for a reason. Why do that and then tell you in your so called holy book to trash that lovely gift and shove it down others' throats using unfair taxes and death penalties? It's just completely illogical and unjust. Christianity emphasizes the need for the other person to make the unpressurized decision to follow Christ completely on their own. It is impossible to impose your will on others and call yourself peaceful and considerate to others. It is impossible.

you said this
This is because violence between Muslims and non-Muslims must be avoided, and Muslims must not be minorities in their own countries, because they are almost minorities everywhere. 50% of all Muslims in the world are minorities in the countries they live....

That is just plain BULL CRAP!!!
Islam makes up 60% of the world's population and the three largest nations (populationally speaking) are 90% Bhuddist. So in the rest of the world you must have at least 80% of the nation or more be Muslim except in possibly 10 nations maximum. Those statistics come straight out of a professional almanac I pulled off my bookshelf so don't you dare deny it.

As a final statement, I don't support or accept the actions of alleged hateful Christians. They aren't Christians at all, but simply posers looking for attention. Don't even compare true loving Christians with them. Through the Bible we can see that they are wrong.
In the relationship between Obama and the rest of the U.S..... I think the U.S. is getting the short end of the hockey stick.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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11/23/2009 8:38:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/16/2009 6:18:53 PM, Mirza wrote:
I am a Muslim, and therefore it is an honour for me to defend my religion. I do not not want to "promote" Islam by creating this topic. Rather, I want to clear any misconceptions. Banker is one of those who need some explanation.

If any of you have any questions regarding Islam, e.g. terrorism and Islam, then feel free to ask me about it.

Why do you think the muslim worlds dislike america.
My father in law argues with me... he thinks it is b/c the men over there see how women are treated over here and get angry at that.

That is why they hate us.

Also, are you guys all extremists, will you do anything for your religion.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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11/23/2009 10:56:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 8:38:40 PM, comoncents wrote:
Why do you think the muslim worlds dislike america.
My father in law argues with me... he thinks it is b/c the men over there see how women are treated over here and get angry at that.

I'm sure Mirza could answer this stuff much better than I could, but I'll try my best. First off, let's look at this from an Iraqi's point of view. Wouldn't you hate America too if they were invading your country against your will? Also the treatment of women in these countries has little to do with Islam. Looking back historically, women were treated worse in Pre-Islamic Arabia. Islam gave women access to rights of inheritance, rights to own property, etc, concepts which where still alien in Christian society up until the mid 20th century. Also, unlike women in western society, women in Islam aren't objectified and are actually respected.

Also, are you guys all extremists, will you do anything for your religion.

No, Muslims only fight when they feel threatened. This goes back to the example I gave about Iraq. The Americans are there against their will so if you were Iraqi wouldn't you feel threatened? It's forbidden for Muslims to attack unprovoked and against innocent people.