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How I know God exists.

Anti-atheist
Posts: 213
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4/13/2013 2:20:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Look why cant we just assume God exists just because?

If god exists, then god exists. God does exist, therefore god exists.

Where is the logic wrong?
Anti-atheist

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Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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4/13/2013 2:23:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 2:20:54 PM, Anti-atheist wrote:
Look why cant we just assume God exists just because?

If god exists, then god exists. God does exist, therefore god exists.

Where is the logic wrong?

It is forced theology.
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Radar
Posts: 424
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4/13/2013 3:14:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 2:49:33 PM, joyjuice wrote:
What's wrong with that logic is there is no logic.

Agreed, but then none is necessary for a properly basic belief.
PureX
Posts: 1,523
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4/15/2013 11:14:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 2:20:54 PM, Anti-atheist wrote:
Look why cant we just assume God exists just because?

If god exists, then god exists. God does exist, therefore god exists.

Where is the logic wrong?
I like the questions you ask.

But I think you're perhaps overlooking the difference between God as an idea, and God as an objective phenomena.

The first does indeed exist: the idea of God. Your question itself proves that clearly enough. But as an objective phenomena, well, that gets very, very difficult, and many would say impossible for us to verify. And the reason for that is in the way most people define "God". Because most people define God as an expression of the infinite: omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent; the source and sustenance of all that exists, etc.,. And such infinite conditions as these can't be experience by we very finite beings. So that there really isn't any way for us to verify them, and therefor verify the objective existence of God as conceive of God.

That does not mean, however, that it's in any way illogical or irrational for a human being to believe that such a God does exists. The lack of evidence in support of such a proposition is not in this case evidence against the proposition. It's only evidence in support of the fact that we simply can't know one way or the other. So the choice is ours. But we can't make it based on what we can know, because we don't have that capacity. Instead, it will have to be made based on something else. Like our needs, or our desires, or our functionality.

I choose to believe that God (as I conceive of God) does exist, because I have found that my life is greatly improved by doing so. And this is in no way illogical, irrational, or disingenuous because I do not falsely claim to know that I'm right. And I certainly don't begrudge anyone else their choice regarding the issue, because I understand that we are all different, and what works for me may not work the same way for them.
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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4/16/2013 12:50:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
A model for how I know God exists. Theism is properly basic in terms of justification and warrant if God is immediately experienced in one's personal life if their coginitive falculties are functioning properly for the environment that they were designed to function.

John Calvin said,

"There is within the human mind, and indeed by natural instinct, an awareness of divinity ... a sense of divinity which can never be effaced is engraved upon men"s minds"

-Calvin, Institutes 1.2.1, 3

We can call this the sensus divinitatus, a mental faculty that produces theistic beliefs in a wide variety. It"s a set of dispositions to form theistic beliefs in various circumstances. In turn these circumstances or stimuli trigger its working. And since perceptual beliefs aren"t based on arguments from more basic beliefs, they arise spontaneously when one"s in the circumstances of, say, being appeared to redly whenever one sees a red apple, so likewise, the belief "God exists" arises spontaneously in appropriate circumstances, say, times of guilt, awe of nature, etc- all as a result of the sensus divinitatus' function.

Such circumstances form the context in which the sensus divinitatus operates to make a properly basic belief. Thus belief in God isn"t arbitrary, but grounded in the proper circumstances. On this model, the theist violates no epistemic duty and is justified.

Now warrant inherently involves properly functioning cognitive faculties or noetics (PFN). And noetics are functioning properly only if they"re functioning in the way they"re designed, and properly functioning in the particular environment they were designed for.

God has so constituted us that we naturally form this belief under certain circumstances; since the belief is this formed by PFN in an appropriate environment, it is warranted for us, and, insofar as our cognitive faculties aren"t disrupted by the noetic effects of sin, we shall believe this proposition deeply and firmly, so that we can be said, in virtue of the great warrant accruing to this belief for us to know God exists.

So if God exists, then theistic belief is warranted. Thus the question of whether belief in God is warranted isn"t epistemological: It"s metaphysical / theological. Thus, there"s no de jure objection to theistic belief independent of de facto objections.

Now since we clearly live in a fallen world, then at some point we lost or forfeited the sensus divinitatus because we sinned (fell away from God- made an unjustly seeking self forming choice), the instigation of the Holy Spirit was required to redeem mankind to the original knowledge by acquaintance of God. Our fall into sin and away from God had disastrous cognitive & affective consequences. Our sense of the divine was deformed and its deliverances muted, our affections skewed. We resist what deliverances of the the sensus divinitatus remain: Being self-centered rather than God-oriented. But here the instigation of the Holy Spirit comes into play.

God in his grace needed to find a way to inform us of the plan of salvation that he has made available, and he has chosen to do so by means of (1) the Scriptures, inspired by him and laying our the great truths of the gospel, (2) the presence and action of the Holy Spirit in repairing the cognitive and affective damage of sin, thereby enabling us to grasp and believe the great truths of the gospel, and (3) faith, which is the principal work of the Holy Spirit produced in believers" hearts.

So the instigation of the Holy Spirit produces in a person, who"s informed of the gospel, assent to its truth if he"s willing. And so the instigation of the Holy Spirit is thus a source of belief, a cognitive process that produces in us gospel belief. The instigation of the Holy Spirit is a belief forming mechanism-analogue to the sensus divinitatus. As such, a belief formed in this way meet the conditions for warrant:

(1) belief formed with PFN
(2) environment + the contamination wrought by sin environment
(This is the environment that this process was designed to function)
(3) process is designed to produce true beliefs

Thus one can be said to know the great truths of the gospel through instigation of the Holy Spirit! They"re properly basic for us wholly apart from evidence and so they're self-authenticating.

Now if Christianity is true then something like this model is probably true. But now what about Atheism? How in the world do we have properly functioning cognitive faculties aimed at producing true metaphysical beliefs if naturalistic evolution is true? For atheism this is the only game in town for an epistemology, and so atheists are to give a non-statistical account of properly functioning noetics without a benevolent designer if they're to give any reason for why theism isn't true.

Thus wholly apart from any external evidence, theism can be rationally affirmed. But wholly apart from evidence, atheism cannot be rationally affirmed.

Now there are about 5 good arguments amounting to a cumulative case for the Christian God. This counts as reasonable external evidence, a knowledge by description for Christianity atop of the internal, knowledge by acquaintance of God through the inner witness of the Holy Spirit.

In this way, I know God exists.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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4/16/2013 12:25:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If you meet a spaceship in your backyard you'd assume someone made it right ?

The world exists there fore God exists ( God being the creator)

if you just assume God exist then you build your believe on it then your belief is weak.

with regards
Radar
Posts: 424
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4/16/2013 12:31:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/16/2013 12:25:51 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
If you meet a spaceship in your backyard you'd assume someone made it right ?

The world exists there fore God exists ( God being the creator)

if you just assume God exist then you build your believe on it then your belief is weak.

with regards

The validity of logic, too, is an assumption.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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4/16/2013 12:44:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/16/2013 12:31:50 PM, Radar wrote:
At 4/16/2013 12:25:51 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
If you meet a spaceship in your backyard you'd assume someone made it right ?

The world exists there fore God exists ( God being the creator)

if you just assume God exist then you build your believe on it then your belief is weak.

with regards

The validity of logic, too, is an assumption.

Luckily not all assumptions are made equal.
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Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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4/16/2013 1:03:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
By the way , none as ever proved God does not exist, so you making it an assumption is good , just that your beleif maybe weak if you don't support your assumption with arguments
Mysterious_Stranger
Posts: 1,562
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9/22/2013 2:38:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 2:20:54 PM, Anti-atheist wrote:
Look why cant we just assume God exists just because?

If god exists, then god exists. God does exist, therefore god exists.

Where is the logic wrong?

I find your lack of logic disturbing..
Turn around, go back.
PGA
Posts: 4,038
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9/23/2013 7:00:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 2:20:54 PM, Anti-atheist wrote:
Look why cant we just assume God exists just because?

If god exists, then god exists. God does exist, therefore god exists.

Where is the logic wrong?

I liked what Apeiron had to say, but much more could be added.

To put it simply, if the Bible is what it claims to be then God has given us a revelation of Himself and mankind. Prophecy is just one of the many verifications that I believe speak volumes, but I think the fact that there is something rather than nothing is also support for God (when I use the word God I refer to the God revealed in the Bible).

Peter
question4u
Posts: 492
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10/14/2013 2:13:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 2:20:54 PM, Anti-atheist wrote:
Look why cant we just assume God exists just because?

If god exists, then god exists. God does exist, therefore god exists.

Where is the logic wrong?

Logic is wrong because jesus is not god,

If Yahweh exist, then he is God. Yahweh does exist, therefore there is no room for another. Only one creator Yahweh the creator and God of abraham
Graincruncher
Posts: 2,799
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10/14/2013 2:28:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/16/2013 12:25:51 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
If you meet a spaceship in your backyard you'd assume someone made it right ?

The spaceship or the ground it is resting on?
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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10/14/2013 4:33:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/14/2013 2:13:58 PM, question4u wrote:
At 4/13/2013 2:20:54 PM, Anti-atheist wrote:
Look why cant we just assume God exists just because?

If god exists, then god exists. God does exist, therefore god exists.

Where is the logic wrong?

Logic is wrong because jesus is not god,

If Yahweh exist, then he is God. Yahweh does exist, therefore there is no room for another. Only one creator Yahweh the creator and God of abraham

Our flesh are only illusions that are formed from processed energy that was spoken into existence by the voice ( the invisible Word of God ) of our Creator.

We saints know that our flesh is an illusion that is of no avail. It's the invisible word of God that we speak from that's important.
John 6
63: It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.