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Existence of Satan.

Nur-Ab-Sal
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4/17/2013 12:04:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
This thread is really meant for theists only, since I'm axiomatically assuming that God exists (let's say I've convinced someone that a perfectly good omnipotent being exists), and let's say that Alvin Plantinga's free will defense is sound. This means that Plantinga has sufficiently shown that God's existence is compatible with moral evil, the evil of agents acting immorally due to free will.

Well, assuming that a perfectly good, and omnipotent deity exists, then it seems to me that, coupled with our observation of evil beyond human proportions (what others would call 'natural evil') seems to affirm the existence of a powerful, malevolent entity, much like what we Christians would call Satan.

This isn't anything new, as Alvin Plantinga discusses natural evil and its relation to moral evil in God, Freedom, and Evil. However, I have been thinking about this, and have come up with the following argument:

1. If God exists, then only moral evil exists
2. If only moral evil exists, then all evil is the product of agency
3. If all evil is the product of agency, then evil beyond human proportions is the product of agency
4. If evil beyond human proportions is the product of agency, then Satan exists
5. God exists
6. Hence, only moral evil exists
7. Hence, all evil is the product of agency
8. Hence, evil beyond human proportions is the product of agency
9. Hence, Satan exists

Well, premise 1 seems to be true, since while God allows moral evil due to the free will of moral agents, non-free-will evil wouldn't be compatible with God, since it entails that God Himself freely chose to create a world with a foreseen imperfection (whereas moral evil is the product of agents' choices, not God's). So, it seems that if God exists, then He'd create a world that is free from error, and the only evil that could come about is that of free will distinct from God. Premise 2 is pretty much just tautology, since moral evil is evil that is the product of personal agency. Premise 3 is a natural implication of premise 2, in that if all evil is the product of agency, then even that which is not intuitively the product of agency, that which is outside our immediate understanding is moral evil. In other words, not only the evil we're familiar with, the evil that is the product of human imperfection, but also the evil that does not seem to be caused by persons ('natural evil') is, too, the product of agency. Next, premise 4 is just my understanding of the theological concept of 'Satan'. Premise 5 I'd also accept axiomatically, since this is aimed at theists and I do not wish to turn this into a God's existence thread.

So, what are your thoughts? Do you think my reasoning is flawed? Remember I'm trying to accept God's existence axiomatically so as to discuss how God's incompatibility with 'natural' evil leads to the conclusion that a transcendent malevolent being really causes this phenomenon, thus implying that Satan exists.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Nur-Ab-Sal
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4/17/2013 12:12:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 12:10:15 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Somebody call?

I don't get it.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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4/17/2013 1:39:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 12:04:48 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
This thread is really meant for theists only, since I'm axiomatically assuming that God exists (let's say I've convinced someone that a perfectly good omnipotent being exists), and let's say that Alvin Plantinga's free will defense is sound. This means that Plantinga has sufficiently shown that God's existence is compatible with moral evil, the evil of agents acting immorally due to free will.

Well, assuming that a perfectly good, and omnipotent deity exists, then it seems to me that, coupled with our observation of evil beyond human proportions (what others would call 'natural evil') seems to affirm the existence of a powerful, malevolent entity, much like what we Christians would call Satan.

This isn't anything new, as Alvin Plantinga discusses natural evil and its relation to moral evil in God, Freedom, and Evil. However, I have been thinking about this, and have come up with the following argument:

1. If God exists, then only moral evil exists
2. If only moral evil exists, then all evil is the product of agency
3. If all evil is the product of agency, then evil beyond human proportions is the product of agency
4. If evil beyond human proportions is the product of agency, then Satan exists
5. God exists
6. Hence, only moral evil exists
7. Hence, all evil is the product of agency
8. Hence, evil beyond human proportions is the product of agency
9. Hence, Satan exists

Well, premise 1 seems to be true, since while God allows moral evil due to the free will of moral agents, non-free-will evil wouldn't be compatible with God, since it entails that God Himself freely chose to create a world with a foreseen imperfection (whereas moral evil is the product of agents' choices, not God's). So, it seems that if God exists, then He'd create a world that is free from error, and the only evil that could come about is that of free will distinct from God. Premise 2 is pretty much just tautology, since moral evil is evil that is the product of personal agency. Premise 3 is a natural implication of premise 2, in that if all evil is the product of agency, then even that which is not intuitively the product of agency, that which is outside our immediate understanding is moral evil. In other words, not only the evil we're familiar with, the evil that is the product of human imperfection, but also the evil that does not seem to be caused by persons ('natural evil') is, too, the product of agency. Next, premise 4 is just my understanding of the theological concept of 'Satan'. Premise 5 I'd also accept axiomatically, since this is aimed at theists and I do not wish to turn this into a God's existence thread.

So, what are your thoughts? Do you think my reasoning is flawed? Remember I'm trying to accept God's existence axiomatically so as to discuss how God's incompatibility with 'natural' evil leads to the conclusion that a transcendent malevolent being really causes this phenomenon, thus implying that Satan exists.

I agree. I have not seen nothing I disagree with. Ill read it a few more times though.
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Wallstreetatheist
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4/17/2013 1:42:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 12:12:15 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:10:15 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Somebody call?

I don't get it.

FREEDO is Satan, our dark lord. Duh....
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AlbinoBunny
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4/17/2013 1:50:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 12:04:48 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
This thread is really meant for theists only, since I'm axiomatically assuming that God exists (let's say I've convinced someone that a perfectly good omnipotent being exists), and let's say that Alvin Plantinga's free will defense is sound. This means that Plantinga has sufficiently shown that God's existence is compatible with moral evil, the evil of agents acting immorally due to free will.

Well, assuming that a perfectly good, and omnipotent deity exists, then it seems to me that, coupled with our observation of evil beyond human proportions (what others would call 'natural evil') seems to affirm the existence of a powerful, malevolent entity, much like what we Christians would call Satan.

This isn't anything new, as Alvin Plantinga discusses natural evil and its relation to moral evil in God, Freedom, and Evil. However, I have been thinking about this, and have come up with the following argument:

1. If God exists, then only moral evil exists
2. If only moral evil exists, then all evil is the product of agency
3. If all evil is the product of agency, then evil beyond human proportions is the product of agency
4. If evil beyond human proportions is the product of agency, then Satan exists
5. God exists
6. Hence, only moral evil exists
7. Hence, all evil is the product of agency
8. Hence, evil beyond human proportions is the product of agency
9. Hence, Satan exists

Well, premise 1 seems to be true, since while God allows moral evil due to the free will of moral agents, non-free-will evil wouldn't be compatible with God, since it entails that God Himself freely chose to create a world with a foreseen imperfection (whereas moral evil is the product of agents' choices, not God's). So, it seems that if God exists, then He'd create a world that is free from error, and the only evil that could come about is that of free will distinct from God. Premise 2 is pretty much just tautology, since moral evil is evil that is the product of personal agency. Premise 3 is a natural implication of premise 2, in that if all evil is the product of agency, then even that which is not intuitively the product of agency, that which is outside our immediate understanding is moral evil. In other words, not only the evil we're familiar with, the evil that is the product of human imperfection, but also the evil that does not seem to be caused by persons ('natural evil') is, too, the product of agency. Next, premise 4 is just my understanding of the theological concept of 'Satan'. Premise 5 I'd also accept axiomatically, since this is aimed at theists and I do not wish to turn this into a God's existence thread.

So, what are your thoughts? Do you think my reasoning is flawed? Remember I'm trying to accept God's existence axiomatically so as to discuss how God's incompatibility with 'natural' evil leads to the conclusion that a transcendent malevolent being really causes this phenomenon, thus implying that Satan exists.

Seems ok.
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AlwaysMoreThanYou
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4/17/2013 2:00:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
My YLT & E. Diaglott make NO mention of the term ' Satan ' in their narrative!
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Pennington
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4/17/2013 2:59:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 2:00:42 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
My YLT & E. Diaglott make NO mention of the term ' Satan ' in their narrative!

Are you suggesting there is not reference to a 'adversary'?
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AlwaysMoreThanYou
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4/17/2013 3:28:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 2:59:42 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/17/2013 2:00:42 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
My YLT & E. Diaglott make NO mention of the term ' Satan ' in their narrative!

Are you suggesting there is not reference to a 'adversary'?

No.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Pennington
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4/17/2013 3:30:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 3:28:52 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 4/17/2013 2:59:42 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/17/2013 2:00:42 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
My YLT & E. Diaglott make NO mention of the term ' Satan ' in their narrative!

Are you suggesting there is not reference to a 'adversary'?

No.

Oh ok, adversary means satan.
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Composer
Posts: 5,858
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4/17/2013 5:18:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 2:00:42 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
My YLT & E. Diaglott make NO mention of the term ' Satan ' in their narrative!

Stooping to plagiarising my quote now!

Your vindicated mentor & literal Saviour moi!
Composer
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4/17/2013 5:22:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 3:30:46 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/17/2013 3:28:52 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 4/17/2013 2:59:42 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/17/2013 2:00:42 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
My YLT & E. Diaglott make NO mention of the term ' Satan ' in their narrative!

Are you suggesting there is not reference to a 'adversary'?

No.

Oh ok, adversary means satan.

Actually the Hebrew Term Satan translates to ANY Adversary/Opposer/Enemy, Good or Bad, Male or Female or Neuter Gender!

Even the Story book you disobey states that the greatest Adversaries are?

Do some homework you already proven jebus fraud the eternal Jew reject!

Your vindicated mentor & literal Saviour moi!
Pennington
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4/17/2013 5:27:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 5:22:43 AM, Composer wrote:
At 4/17/2013 3:30:46 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/17/2013 3:28:52 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 4/17/2013 2:59:42 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/17/2013 2:00:42 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
My YLT & E. Diaglott make NO mention of the term ' Satan ' in their narrative!

Are you suggesting there is not reference to a 'adversary'?

No.

Oh ok, adversary means satan.

Actually the Hebrew Term Satan translates to ANY Adversary/Opposer/Enemy, Good or Bad, Male or Female or Neuter Gender!

Even the Story book you disobey states that the greatest Adversaries are?

Do some homework you already proven jebus fraud the eternal Jew reject!

Your vindicated mentor & literal Saviour moi!:

Why don't you move out of your mothers house, your like 45 aint you. Stop spamming children online and find a girlfriend.
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Composer
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4/17/2013 5:36:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 5:27:25 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/17/2013 5:22:43 AM, Composer wrote:
At 4/17/2013 3:30:46 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/17/2013 3:28:52 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 4/17/2013 2:59:42 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/17/2013 2:00:42 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
My YLT & E. Diaglott make NO mention of the term ' Satan ' in their narrative!

Are you suggesting there is not reference to a 'adversary'?

No.

Oh ok, adversary means satan.

Actually the Hebrew Term Satan translates to ANY Adversary/Opposer/Enemy, Good or Bad, Male or Female or Neuter Gender!

Even the Story book you disobey states that the greatest Adversaries are?

Do some homework you already proven jebus fraud the eternal Jew reject!

Your vindicated mentor & literal Saviour moi!:

Why don't you move out of your mothers house, your like 45 aint you. Stop spamming children online and find a girlfriend.

That's the way Pennington the proven jebus the eternal Jew reject & fraud!

I could say something also about why you are also a lonely homosexual and conversely I'm a happy heterosexual, but it's Off Topic so I shan't at least for the moment!

Your vindicated mentor & literal Saviour moi!
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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4/17/2013 5:45:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 5:18:09 AM, Composer wrote:
At 4/17/2013 2:00:42 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
My YLT & E. Diaglott make NO mention of the term ' Satan ' in their narrative!

Stooping to plagiarising my quote now!

Your vindicated mentor & literal Saviour moi!

How can one not attempt to take credit for such a beautifully written, lexically perfect quote?
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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4/17/2013 5:45:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 1:42:54 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:12:15 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:10:15 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Somebody call?

I don't get it.

FREEDO is Satan, our dark lord. Duh....

Oh, I should've gotten that the first time.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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4/17/2013 8:46:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 12:04:48 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
This thread is really meant for theists only, since I'm axiomatically assuming that God exists (let's say I've convinced someone that a perfectly good omnipotent being exists), and let's say that Alvin Plantinga's free will defense is sound. This means that Plantinga has sufficiently shown that God's existence is compatible with moral evil, the evil of agents acting immorally due to free will.

Well, assuming that a perfectly good, and omnipotent deity exists, then it seems to me that, coupled with our observation of evil beyond human proportions (what others would call 'natural evil') seems to affirm the existence of a powerful, malevolent entity, much like what we Christians would call Satan.

This isn't anything new, as Alvin Plantinga discusses natural evil and its relation to moral evil in God, Freedom, and Evil. However, I have been thinking about this, and have come up with the following argument:

1. If God exists, then only moral evil exists
2. If only moral evil exists, then all evil is the product of agency
3. If all evil is the product of agency, then evil beyond human proportions is the product of agency
4. If evil beyond human proportions is the product of agency, then Satan exists
5. God exists
6. Hence, only moral evil exists
7. Hence, all evil is the product of agency
8. Hence, evil beyond human proportions is the product of agency
9. Hence, Satan exists

Well, premise 1 seems to be true, since while God allows moral evil due to the free will of moral agents, non-free-will evil wouldn't be compatible with God, since it entails that God Himself freely chose to create a world with a foreseen imperfection (whereas moral evil is the product of agents' choices, not God's). So, it seems that if God exists, then He'd create a world that is free from error, and the only evil that could come about is that of free will distinct from God. Premise 2 is pretty much just tautology, since moral evil is evil that is the product of personal agency. Premise 3 is a natural implication of premise 2, in that if all evil is the product of agency, then even that which is not intuitively the product of agency, that which is outside our immediate understanding is moral evil. In other words, not only the evil we're familiar with, the evil that is the product of human imperfection, but also the evil that does not seem to be caused by persons ('natural evil') is, too, the product of agency. Next, premise 4 is just my understanding of the theological concept of 'Satan'. Premise 5 I'd also accept axiomatically, since this is aimed at theists and I do not wish to turn this into a God's existence thread.

So, what are your thoughts? Do you think my reasoning is flawed? Remember I'm trying to accept God's existence axiomatically so as to discuss how God's incompatibility with 'natural' evil leads to the conclusion that a transcendent malevolent being really causes this phenomenon, thus implying that Satan exists.

This is a great start. Absolutely evil is the product of agency and we have an adversary and an influence. The view that God causes evil for some higher purpose is beyond stupid and uncalled for, however I do believe that God in His mercy and grace can restore and use what the enemy meant for harm to work out for good which He has done for me many times (does not mean that He caused it or planned it). WE DO NOT FIGHT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD lol, there is an adversary who KILLS, STEALS AND DESTROYS, but God has made a way.

The idea and concept of Satan or any evil influence would be greatly overlooked in that all spiritual activity is unseen to our physical eyes (potentially) and the accumulation of influence to our thoughts could practically go unnoticed to the average onlooker. Our thoughts, motives and intents are of much more importance than we could ever realise, and the things we settle for, believe and give in to could easily leave us unaware of what is happening. People don't realise how subsceptible our minds and our perceptions are to any spiritual influence, we may see a thought of doubt, anger, murder, lust, rebelion, pride or even an urge to blame God for things that are not true as a simple passing thought but our thoughts and the things we believe effect our spirit our beliefs and our destination. As believers God can protect our minds and we can submit our thoughts to God as an act of worship. James 4:1-8 and Romans 12:2 says it well.

We will probably never see all that God does to intervene or what He does to convict individuals, actually we couldn't.
A murderer lays on his bed at night and thinks and plans his actions in his heart ignoring the constant conviction to stop and turn to God but he doesn't, instead he gives the enemy traction and power in his thoughts and shuts out God. Night after night God probes the mans heart and looks and searches for a way in and a way to persuade the man to righteousness to end this potentially dangerous situation but the man continues and indulges all that the enemy feeds his mind. Day after day God hears the mans thoughts and intentions and at any moment the man could let go of his mind and the trap the enemy has set before him could be dismantled and God would heal and restore the man like new, a new mind, heart and spirit. But the mans anger, pride and hatred lead him further away from the truth and the constant conviction from the Spirit of God and he sells his soul for a taste of murder and one glimmer of satisfaction of sin and the enemy wins and evil is disbursed.
All sin and evil actions begin in the mind first and in the heart where our passions and desires come from. We may never know or see all that God or Angels do to prevent us from falling and committing evil because our physical eyes are limited. I can honestly say that as a believer the Spirit of God is constantly probing and convicting our spirit and the mistakes I have made have come from ignoring and rebeling against that knowledge first. James 1:12-17

Excuse me didn't mean to rant there, just thinkin out loud lol.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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4/17/2013 9:27:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 5:45:12 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 4/17/2013 5:18:09 AM, Composer wrote:
At 4/17/2013 2:00:42 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
My YLT & E. Diaglott make NO mention of the term ' Satan ' in their narrative!

Stooping to plagiarising my quote now!

Your vindicated mentor & literal Saviour moi!

How can one not attempt to take credit for such a beautifully written, lexically perfect quote?

I'd lay 10 to 1 that Composer doesn't even own an Emphatic Diaglott translation. LOL @ "my YLT and E. Diaglott". Both of those "translations" are "one-man wonders".
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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4/17/2013 3:15:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 9:27:44 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 4/17/2013 5:45:12 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 4/17/2013 5:18:09 AM, Composer wrote:
At 4/17/2013 2:00:42 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
My YLT & E. Diaglott make NO mention of the term ' Satan ' in their narrative!

Stooping to plagiarising my quote now!

Your vindicated mentor & literal Saviour moi!

How can one not attempt to take credit for such a beautifully written, lexically perfect quote?

I'd lay 10 to 1 that Composer doesn't even own an Emphatic Diaglott translation. LOL @ "my YLT and E. Diaglott". Both of those "translations" are "one-man wonders".

Sometimes, I genuinely feel sorry for whatever Composer goes through in his everyday life, that forces him to act like this. Other times, I'm amused. This is one of those times.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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4/17/2013 4:48:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Anyway, dollars to donuts, Satan exists.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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4/17/2013 4:53:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 4:48:26 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
Anyway, dollars to donuts, Satan exists.

Problem of evil solved lol!
glassplotful
Posts: 52
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4/17/2013 5:20:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
1. If God exists, then only moral evil exists

This seems to be a restatement of one of Plantinga's arguments. I will assume for the sake of argument that a god exists, and I will also assume that evil is clearly defined (which it is not). I cannot assume Plantinga's logic to be true, since you use his main argument as your basis for your own argument, however.

The problem is this: natural evil does exist. First, let's find a definition of natural evil that we can all agree upon:

natural evil: evil independent of the intervention of a human agent.

If you do not agree with this definition, let me know.

But we will assume you do. Cancer, birth defects, tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, and hurricanes all constitute natural evil.

By your logic in (1), god does not exist, because moral, as well as natural, evil exists in this world.

2. If only moral evil exists, then all evil is the product of agency

Agreed. There is some human involved in any moral evil.

3. If all evil is the product of agency, then evil beyond human proportions is the product of agency

Beyond human proportions? Are you implying that there exists some evil which humans cannot possibly achieve? If you assume this, then the evil 'beyond human proportions' you are describing has nothing to do with humans at all. Hence, it would be natural evil, not moral evil. If you are describing natural evil, then the agency argument is invalid.

4. If evil beyond human proportions is the product of agency, then Satan exists

Assuming evil 'beyond human proportions' is natural evil, then you are simply renaming nature 'Satan.' In which case I have to ask- why?
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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4/17/2013 5:38:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 5:20:38 PM, glassplotful wrote:
1. If God exists, then only moral evil exists

This seems to be a restatement of one of Plantinga's arguments. I will assume for the sake of argument that a god exists, and I will also assume that evil is clearly defined (which it is not). I cannot assume Plantinga's logic to be true, since you use his main argument as your basis for your own argument, however.

The problem is this: natural evil does exist. First, let's find a definition of natural evil that we can all agree upon:

natural evil: evil independent of the intervention of a human agent.

If you do not agree with this definition, let me know.

But we will assume you do. Cancer, birth defects, tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, and hurricanes all constitute natural evil.

By your logic in (1), god does not exist, because moral, as well as natural, evil exists in this world.

2. If only moral evil exists, then all evil is the product of agency

Agreed. There is some human involved in any moral evil.

3. If all evil is the product of agency, then evil beyond human proportions is the product of agency

Beyond human proportions? Are you implying that there exists some evil which humans cannot possibly achieve? If you assume this, then the evil 'beyond human proportions' you are describing has nothing to do with humans at all. Hence, it would be natural evil, not moral evil. If you are describing natural evil, then the agency argument is invalid.

4. If evil beyond human proportions is the product of agency, then Satan exists

Assuming evil 'beyond human proportions' is natural evil, then you are simply renaming nature 'Satan.' In which case I have to ask- why?

I could be wrong, but I thought he was addressing "moral evil" not natural? "Beyond Human proportions" means there could be an influence greater than just us that could be promoting the motive.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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4/17/2013 6:30:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 5:22:43 AM, Composer wrote:
At 4/17/2013 3:30:46 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/17/2013 3:28:52 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 4/17/2013 2:59:42 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/17/2013 2:00:42 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
My YLT & E. Diaglott make NO mention of the term ' Satan ' in their narrative!

Are you suggesting there is not reference to a 'adversary'?

No.

Oh ok, adversary means satan.

Actually the Hebrew Term Satan translates to ANY Adversary/Opposer/Enemy, Good or Bad, Male or Female or Neuter Gender!


Whatever Composers' faults he's actually correct on this point. Satan doesn't necessarily function as a proper name rigidly designating one allegedly super malovelnt entity that is a fallen angel or what have you. It's used to refer to ANY adversary.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
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4/17/2013 6:34:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 5:20:38 PM, glassplotful wrote:
1. If God exists, then only moral evil exists

This seems to be a restatement of one of Plantinga's arguments. I will assume for the sake of argument that a god exists, and I will also assume that evil is clearly defined (which it is not). I cannot assume Plantinga's logic to be true, since you use his main argument as your basis for your own argument, however.

The problem is this: natural evil does exist. First, let's find a definition of natural evil that we can all agree upon:

natural evil: evil independent of the intervention of a human agent.


HUman agents don't exhaust the set all of all agents. There is God, angels, demons, the devil, some sorts of aliens, etc. All are supposed to be agents.

If you do not agree with this definition, let me know.

But we will assume you do. Cancer, birth defects, tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, and hurricanes all constitute natural evil.


Plantinga proposes the possibility that all natural evil can be explained by appeal to the agency of Satan and his cohorts. I don't find this particularly plausible, but you're missing the point.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Nur-Ab-Sal
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4/17/2013 6:39:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 5:20:38 PM, glassplotful wrote:
1. If God exists, then only moral evil exists

This seems to be a restatement of one of Plantinga's arguments. I will assume for the sake of argument that a god exists, and I will also assume that evil is clearly defined (which it is not). I cannot assume Plantinga's logic to be true, since you use his main argument as your basis for your own argument, however.

The problem is this: natural evil does exist. First, let's find a definition of natural evil that we can all agree upon:

natural evil: evil independent of the intervention of a human agent.

If you do not agree with this definition, let me know.

But we will assume you do. Cancer, birth defects, tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, and hurricanes all constitute natural evil.

By your logic in (1), god does not exist, because moral, as well as natural, evil exists in this world.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. These are examples of 'natural' evil which I'm asserting are actually moral evil disguised as natural evil.

2. If only moral evil exists, then all evil is the product of agency

Agreed. There is some human involved in any moral evil.

3. If all evil is the product of agency, then evil beyond human proportions is the product of agency

Beyond human proportions? Are you implying that there exists some evil which humans cannot possibly achieve? If you assume this, then the evil 'beyond human proportions' you are describing has nothing to do with humans at all. Hence, it would be natural evil, not moral evil. If you are describing natural evil, then the agency argument is invalid.

I again don't think you understand my point at all. I'm fully aware that this evil is not caused by human agents -- that's my central point -- it's caused by a non-human entity with agency. You're starting with the assumption that natural evil is not caused by agents to prove that it's natural evil. My point is that what appears to be 'natural' evil is simply the moral evil of non-human agent(s).

4. If evil beyond human proportions is the product of agency, then Satan exists

Assuming evil 'beyond human proportions' is natural evil, then you are simply renaming nature 'Satan.' In which case I have to ask- why?

I'm not renaming nature Satan, because you've completely disregarded the central thesis of my argument, which is that an agent is causing what appears to be natural evil.

I would say something snobbish like read the OP next time, but you appear to be sincere... so, thanks for the reply.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Nur-Ab-Sal
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4/17/2013 6:40:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 6:34:43 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/17/2013 5:20:38 PM, glassplotful wrote:
1. If God exists, then only moral evil exists

This seems to be a restatement of one of Plantinga's arguments. I will assume for the sake of argument that a god exists, and I will also assume that evil is clearly defined (which it is not). I cannot assume Plantinga's logic to be true, since you use his main argument as your basis for your own argument, however.

The problem is this: natural evil does exist. First, let's find a definition of natural evil that we can all agree upon:

natural evil: evil independent of the intervention of a human agent.


HUman agents don't exhaust the set all of all agents. There is God, angels, demons, the devil, some sorts of aliens, etc. All are supposed to be agents.

If you do not agree with this definition, let me know.

But we will assume you do. Cancer, birth defects, tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, and hurricanes all constitute natural evil.


Plantinga proposes the possibility that all natural evil can be explained by appeal to the agency of Satan and his cohorts. I don't find this particularly plausible, but you're missing the point.

Since you're obviously more familiar with this than I am, how do you deal with natural evil if not with something like Satan?
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
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4/17/2013 6:46:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 6:30:23 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/17/2013 5:22:43 AM, Composer wrote:
At 4/17/2013 3:30:46 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/17/2013 3:28:52 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 4/17/2013 2:59:42 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/17/2013 2:00:42 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
My YLT & E. Diaglott make NO mention of the term ' Satan ' in their narrative!

Are you suggesting there is not reference to a 'adversary'?

No.

Oh ok, adversary means satan.

Actually the Hebrew Term Satan translates to ANY Adversary/Opposer/Enemy, Good or Bad, Male or Female or Neuter Gender!


Whatever Composers' faults he's actually correct on this point. Satan doesn't necessarily function as a proper name rigidly designating one allegedly super malovelnt entity that is a fallen angel or what have you. It's used to refer to ANY adversary.

Oh, I was using Satan loosely to mean anything of that sort.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
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4/18/2013 4:53:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 8:46:23 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 4/17/2013 12:04:48 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
This thread is really meant for theists only, since I'm axiomatically assuming that God exists (let's say I've convinced someone that a perfectly good omnipotent being exists), and let's say that Alvin Plantinga's free will defense is sound. This means that Plantinga has sufficiently shown that God's existence is compatible with moral evil, the evil of agents acting immorally due to free will.

Well, assuming that a perfectly good, and omnipotent deity exists, then it seems to me that, coupled with our observation of evil beyond human proportions (what others would call 'natural evil') seems to affirm the existence of a powerful, malevolent entity, much like what we Christians would call Satan.

This isn't anything new, as Alvin Plantinga discusses natural evil and its relation to moral evil in God, Freedom, and Evil. However, I have been thinking about this, and have come up with the following argument:

1. If God exists, then only moral evil exists
2. If only moral evil exists, then all evil is the product of agency
3. If all evil is the product of agency, then evil beyond human proportions is the product of agency
4. If evil beyond human proportions is the product of agency, then Satan exists
5. God exists
6. Hence, only moral evil exists
7. Hence, all evil is the product of agency
8. Hence, evil beyond human proportions is the product of agency
9. Hence, Satan exists

Well, premise 1 seems to be true, since while God allows moral evil due to the free will of moral agents, non-free-will evil wouldn't be compatible with God, since it entails that God Himself freely chose to create a world with a foreseen imperfection (whereas moral evil is the product of agents' choices, not God's). So, it seems that if God exists, then He'd create a world that is free from error, and the only evil that could come about is that of free will distinct from God. Premise 2 is pretty much just tautology, since moral evil is evil that is the product of personal agency. Premise 3 is a natural implication of premise 2, in that if all evil is the product of agency, then even that which is not intuitively the product of agency, that which is outside our immediate understanding is moral evil. In other words, not only the evil we're familiar with, the evil that is the product of human imperfection, but also the evil that does not seem to be caused by persons ('natural evil') is, too, the product of agency. Next, premise 4 is just my understanding of the theological concept of 'Satan'. Premise 5 I'd also accept axiomatically, since this is aimed at theists and I do not wish to turn this into a God's existence thread.

So, what are your thoughts? Do you think my reasoning is flawed? Remember I'm trying to accept God's existence axiomatically so as to discuss how God's incompatibility with 'natural' evil leads to the conclusion that a transcendent malevolent being really causes this phenomenon, thus implying that Satan exists.

At 4/17/2013 8:46:23 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
This is a great start. Absolutely evil is the product of agency and we have an adversary and an influence.
The greatest Story book evil Supernatural adversary must surely be its creator Story book god (Col. 1:16)

Why then do you wanna-be a genuine believer blame a Supernatural angel?

At 4/17/2013 8:46:23 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
The view that God causes evil for some higher purpose is beyond stupid and uncalled for,

I concur Story book Creator of all evil (your Story book alleged Supernatural god: Col. 1:16) is an easily proven narcissitic bastard.

At 4/17/2013 8:46:23 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
however I do believe that God in His mercy and grace can restore and use what the enemy meant for harm to work out for good which He has done for me many times (does not mean that He caused it or planned it).

If it hadn't created you with a propensity to evil in the first place you wouldn't need to be fixed!

At 4/17/2013 8:46:23 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
WE DO NOT FIGHT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD lol, there is an adversary who KILLS, STEALS AND DESTROYS, but God has made a way.

Not flesh and blood includes the human imagination, such imaginations that concocted your Story book in the first place!

At 4/17/2013 8:46:23 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
The idea and concept of Satan or any evil influence would be greatly overlooked in that all spiritual activity is unseen to our physical eyes (potentially) and the accumulation of influence to our thoughts could practically go unnoticed to the average onlooker. Our thoughts, motives and intents are of much more importance than we could ever realise, and the things we settle for, believe and give in to could easily leave us unaware of what is happening. People don't realise how subsceptible our minds and our perceptions are to any spiritual influence, we may see a thought of doubt, anger, murder, lust, rebelion, pride or even an urge to blame God for things that are not true as a simple passing thought but our thoughts and the things we believe effect our spirit our beliefs and our destination. As believers God can protect our minds and we can submit our thoughts to God as an act of worship. James 4:1-8 and Romans 12:2 says it well.

You claim Story book god can protect the minds of evil thoughts that it created in the first place? (Col. 1:16) Story book LOL!

Obviously gods of your making set up victimes so it can jump in a save them later? LOL!

At 4/17/2013 8:46:23 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
We will probably never see all that God does to intervene or what He does to convict individuals, actually we couldn't.
A murderer lays on his bed at night and thinks and plans his actions in his heart ignoring the constant conviction to stop and turn to God but he doesn't, instead he gives the enemy traction and power in his thoughts and shuts out God. Night after night God probes the mans heart and looks and searches for a way in and a way to persuade the man to righteousness to end this potentially dangerous situation but the man continues and indulges all that the enemy feeds his mind. Day after day God hears the mans thoughts and intentions and at any moment the man could let go of his mind and the trap the enemy has set before him could be dismantled and God would heal and restore the man like new, a new mind, heart and spirit. But the mans anger, pride and hatred lead him further away from the truth and the constant conviction from the Spirit of God and he sells his soul for a taste of murder and one glimmer of satisfaction of sin and the enemy wins and evil is disbursed.

At 4/17/2013 8:46:23 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
All sin and evil actions begin in the mind first and in the heart where our passions and desires come from.

ALL evil started when Story book god introduced it! e.g. (Gen. 2:17 & Col. 1:16)

At 4/17/2013 8:46:23 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
We may never know or see all that God or Angels do to prevent us from falling and committing evil because our physical eyes are limited. I can honestly say that as a believer the Spirit of God is constantly probing and convicting our spirit and the mistakes I have made have come from ignoring and rebeling against that knowledge first. James 1:12-17

Had you been a genuine believer you would have never sinned from the point in time when you claim that happened! cf. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning;(A) no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. (1 John 3:6) NET Story book

The fact you also remain a malignant sinner proves according to your own propaganda that YOU are NOT a genuine believer!

You are according to the Story book a fraud!
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4/18/2013 5:09:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/17/2013 9:27:44 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 4/17/2013 5:45:12 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 4/17/2013 5:18:09 AM, Composer wrote:
At 4/17/2013 2:00:42 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
My YLT & E. Diaglott make NO mention of the term ' Satan ' in their narrative!

Stooping to plagiarising my quote now!

Your vindicated mentor & literal Saviour moi!

How can one not attempt to take credit for such a beautifully written, lexically perfect quote?

I'd lay 10 to 1 that Composer doesn't even own an Emphatic Diaglott translation. LOL @ "my YLT and E. Diaglott". Both of those "translations" are "one-man wonders".

Pity you chose to shoot your big-mouth off again annanicole only to be exposed as still foolish & fallacious as I actually own about 15 Hard Copies of the E.D that I purchased for my successful bible-busting classes and they came from the J.w's and others I purchased later; now printed by the christadelphians, to whom were given possession of the E. Diaglott Printing Plates a few years ago after the J.w's eventually dumped it for their corrupt KIT. The E.D also is or at least was also available Online in .pdf format

The YLT Story book I have is one of the several Computer Software Story book bibles I also purchased years ago on a CD compilation! I actually have altogether about say 15 Story book hard copy versions! All worthless except as toilet paper or successfully busting Cults like yours that use them as your failed 100% human concocted propaganda!

Much much much better luck next times!