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Give me a reason to have beliefs...

AlbinoBunny
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4/20/2013 9:06:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
In anything more than the material world. Not just a knowledge that before our universe was created, or things at the quantum level, or that the way we feel about consciousness may not be completely to do with the material world. Give me a reason to actually believe in specifics of what these non-material objects are. You don't have to give scientific reasoning, just any kind of valid reasoning you can provide will be fine.

There are many strange things we don't understand, and I can claim I don't know the answers to how or why they happened. Why should I have a specific belief on the reasoning of these events? Of how and why they happened? Not just making an assumption of something causing them, just because it's a possible answer.
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PureX
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4/20/2013 11:21:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 9:06:04 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
In anything more than the material world. Not just a knowledge that before our universe was created, or things at the quantum level, or that the way we feel about consciousness may not be completely to do with the material world. Give me a reason to actually believe in specifics of what these non-material objects are. You don't have to give scientific reasoning, just any kind of valid reasoning you can provide will be fine.

There are many strange things we don't understand, and I can claim I don't know the answers to how or why they happened. Why should I have a specific belief on the reasoning of these events? Of how and why they happened? Not just making an assumption of something causing them, just because it's a possible answer.

Humility.

You are already mistaken if you think that having faith in God is nothing more than presuming (believing) some religious mythical scenario is the "answer" to all our questions about the cause, purpose, and meaning of our existence. Some people call that kind of pretense faith, but really, it's just pretense. It may provide them with some comfort, but mostly it just closes their minds with fake knowledge, and hardens their hearts with a false sense of self-righteousness.

The real value in having faith in "God" begins when we understand that "God" is the personification of a divine mystery. A mystery that holds within it the source and sustenance and purpose of all that exists. It is why we are here, and what keeps us alive. And through it's source we all connected: all a part of the whole. And from that connection, and our recognition of it, that we gain unity, and wisdom, and strength, and courage, and healing, and love, and joy.

And who wouldn't want those things?

Besides, it is the truth.
tkubok
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4/20/2013 11:38:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 11:21:49 AM, PureX wrote:
At 4/20/2013 9:06:04 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
In anything more than the material world. Not just a knowledge that before our universe was created, or things at the quantum level, or that the way we feel about consciousness may not be completely to do with the material world. Give me a reason to actually believe in specifics of what these non-material objects are. You don't have to give scientific reasoning, just any kind of valid reasoning you can provide will be fine.

There are many strange things we don't understand, and I can claim I don't know the answers to how or why they happened. Why should I have a specific belief on the reasoning of these events? Of how and why they happened? Not just making an assumption of something causing them, just because it's a possible answer.

Humility.

What does humility have to do with anything? Were not claiming that this is necessarily absolutely impossible, what were asking for is a reason to believe.

You are already mistaken if you think that having faith in God is nothing more than presuming (believing) some religious mythical scenario is the "answer" to all our questions about the cause, purpose, and meaning of our existence. Some people call that kind of pretense faith, but really, it's just pretense. It may provide them with some comfort, but mostly it just closes their minds with fake knowledge, and hardens their hearts with a false sense of self-righteousness.

No, what hes talking about is the supernatural itself, and not a mythical scenario providing answers to questions.

Dont you have to believe that the supernatural exists, before you can believe in God? Isnt that belief a pre-requisite?

The real value in having faith in "God" begins when we understand that "God" is the personification of a divine mystery. A mystery that holds within it the source and sustenance and purpose of all that exists. It is why we are here, and what keeps us alive. And through it's source we all connected: all a part of the whole. And from that connection, and our recognition of it, that we gain unity, and wisdom, and strength, and courage, and healing, and love, and joy.

But the question remains, why should we believe in the mystery to begin with?

And who wouldn't want those things?

What makes you think that we require a belief in a divine mystery to have those things?

I dont believe in it. Yet i have strength, courage, healing, love and joy in my life.

Besides, it is the truth.

Not being very humble here, are you?
PureX
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4/20/2013 12:38:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 11:38:24 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/20/2013 11:21:49 AM, PureX wrote:
At 4/20/2013 9:06:04 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
In anything more than the material world. Not just a knowledge that before our universe was created, or things at the quantum level, or that the way we feel about consciousness may not be completely to do with the material world. Give me a reason to actually believe in specifics of what these non-material objects are. You don't have to give scientific reasoning, just any kind of valid reasoning you can provide will be fine.

There are many strange things we don't understand, and I can claim I don't know the answers to how or why they happened. Why should I have a specific belief on the reasoning of these events? Of how and why they happened? Not just making an assumption of something causing them, just because it's a possible answer.

Humility.


What does humility have to do with anything? We're not claiming that this is necessarily absolutely impossible, what were asking for is a reason to believe.

The reason is that it's the truth. "God" is just a word. It's a word that refers to an idea. If that idea is the truth, then to believe in "God" is to believe in the truth.

If we conceive of "God" as the divine mystery source, sustenance, and purpose of all things, we aren't being dishonest. Because the way we humans experience our existence leads us to contemplate exactly those ideals. And they are indeed a divine (transcendent) mystery to us.

By referencing humility, I meant to refer to the awareness of our 'unknowing'. The truth is that we humans don't know where we come from, why we're here, or for what reason. And I think this is a problem for us because as a species, we survive and thrive by understanding ourselves and our environment. Our own unknowing is a great threat to us, and causes us much fear and consternation.

You are already mistaken if you think that having faith in God is nothing more than presuming (believing) some religious mythical scenario is the "answer" to all our questions about the cause, purpose, and meaning of our existence. Some people call that kind of pretense faith, but really, it's just pretense. It may provide them with some comfort, but mostly it just closes their minds with fake knowledge, and hardens their hearts with a false sense of self-righteousness.

No, what hes talking about is the supernatural itself, and not a mythical scenario providing answers to questions.

So am I. But I would prefer to use the term "transcendent".

Dont you have to believe that the supernatural exists, before you can believe in God? Isnt that belief a pre-requisite?

This is why I prefer the term "transcendent". The mystery is transcendent of nature as we currently experience and understand it. But is it UN-natural, as is implied by the term "supernatural"? I don't know, but I doubt it. Anyway, 'supernatural' just has too much mystical baggage attached to it.

The real value in having faith in "God" begins when we understand that "God" is the personification of a divine mystery. A mystery that holds within it the source and sustenance and purpose of all that exists. It is why we are here, and what keeps us alive. And through it's source we all connected: all a part of the whole. And from that connection, and our recognition of it, that we gain unity, and wisdom, and strength, and courage, and healing, and love, and joy.

But the question remains, why should we believe in the mystery to begin with?

Because they mystery exists. And it exists because we are human. It's a part of who we are. And because how we deal with this mystery helps to define who we are as individuals. Even our avoiding these existential questions will still define us.

And who wouldn't want those things?

What makes you think that we require a belief in a divine mystery to have those things?

Personal observation and experience.

I dont believe in it. Yet i have strength, courage, healing, love and joy in my life.

Why do you think you want those things?

Besides, it is the truth.

Not being very humble here, are you?

In fact, yes I am.
Fruitytree
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4/20/2013 1:19:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think you already know my reasoning and why I beleive, but I will give you other reasons here:

I beleive that my deeds that I do should not be lost when I die.

I beleive that the wrongdoers and oppressors should not just die like everybody and RIP.

I beleive that there must be another life for Justice to take place and to know who was right and who was wrong, if that was not the case then trully this life is not worth being lived.

Also I don't beleive that I'm just a body , I beleive in the soul , so my body may die but how will my soul ?
tkubok
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4/20/2013 1:43:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 1:19:40 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
I think you already know my reasoning and why I beleive, but I will give you other reasons here:

I beleive that my deeds that I do should not be lost when I die.
If you do good deeds and have an impact on your society, then people will not forget your deeds. Also, if this is the reason why you would want the supernatural to exist, youd get the same result if you go around killing a bunch of people.
I beleive that the wrongdoers and oppressors should not just die like everybody and RIP.

I am always amazed by this argument. Based on most beliefs regarding the afterlife, a wrongdoer, an oppressor, can convert and enter heaven, therefore escaping justice.

I mean, imagine a scenario where a murder victim who was raped, tortured, and killed, meets her rapist, her killer in heaven because he repented on his deathbed, while her parents, who lost faith and became atheist after their daughters death, are burning in hell for not believing and being apostates. Wouldnt knowing that they are all simply dead, be a much better alternative?

I beleive that there must be another life for Justice to take place and to know who was right and who was wrong, if that was not the case then trully this life is not worth being lived.

No, this argument is absurd as well.

There is no gauruntee that the justice in the afterlife is something that you yourself would call Just. Frankly, i dont see the justice in someone, a decent, good, hard working person who spends his time volunteering, who gives money to charity, burning in hell for eternity because he didnt accept a dogma or belief, whereas a murder, rapist, sadistic pedophile killer, has a deathbed conversion and goes to heaven. This isnt justice.

And when you find out that the Muslims happened to be right and you are burning in hell for being a nonbeliever infidel, what possible comfort could come of knowing that you were wrong about Islam?

Also I don't beleive that I'm just a body , I beleive in the soul , so my body may die but how will my soul ?

How will your soul... what? Die? survive? The question asked by OP isnt what you believe, its whether you have a reason to believe it.
tkubok
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4/20/2013 2:04:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 12:38:10 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/20/2013 11:38:24 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/20/2013 11:21:49 AM, PureX wrote:
At 4/20/2013 9:06:04 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
In anything more than the material world. Not just a knowledge that before our universe was created, or things at the quantum level, or that the way we feel about consciousness may not be completely to do with the material world. Give me a reason to actually believe in specifics of what these non-material objects are. You don't have to give scientific reasoning, just any kind of valid reasoning you can provide will be fine.

There are many strange things we don't understand, and I can claim I don't know the answers to how or why they happened. Why should I have a specific belief on the reasoning of these events? Of how and why they happened? Not just making an assumption of something causing them, just because it's a possible answer.

Humility.


What does humility have to do with anything? We're not claiming that this is necessarily absolutely impossible, what were asking for is a reason to believe.

The reason is that it's the truth.

Again, wheres your humility. Arent you humble enough to admit that maybe this isnt the truth?

"God" is just a word. It's a word that refers to an idea. If that idea is the truth, then to believe in "God" is to believe in the truth.

Truth of what?

If we conceive of "God" as the divine mystery source, sustenance, and purpose of all things, we aren't being dishonest. Because the way we humans experience our existence leads us to contemplate exactly those ideals. And they are indeed a divine (transcendent) mystery to us.

The original question asked is essentialy, why would you conceive of God as the divine mystery source to begin with.

Also, if its a mystery, how could you believe in it. A mystery is not an explanation. A mystery is not a cause.

By referencing humility, I meant to refer to the awareness of our 'unknowing'. The truth is that we humans don't know where we come from, why we're here, or for what reason. And I think this is a problem for us because as a species, we survive and thrive by understanding ourselves and our environment. Our own unknowing is a great threat to us, and causes us much fear and consternation.

No one said that we knew anything. The question posed is not rejecting our ability not to know, its asking for a justification to claim to know or claim to believe in something that is supernatural. And people can and do claim to believe or know that God, that heaven and hell, that angels and demons and the supernatural exist.

Therefore, again, I reiterate my claim. Humility has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

You are already mistaken if you think that having faith in God is nothing more than presuming (believing) some religious mythical scenario is the "answer" to all our questions about the cause, purpose, and meaning of our existence. Some people call that kind of pretense faith, but really, it's just pretense. It may provide them with some comfort, but mostly it just closes their minds with fake knowledge, and hardens their hearts with a false sense of self-righteousness.

No, what hes talking about is the supernatural itself, and not a mythical scenario providing answers to questions.

So am I. But I would prefer to use the term "transcendent".

It really doesnt matter what term you use, because the contention here is what the justification for believeing in that is.

Dont you have to believe that the supernatural exists, before you can believe in God? Isnt that belief a pre-requisite?

This is why I prefer the term "transcendent". The mystery is transcendent of nature as we currently experience and understand it. But is it UN-natural, as is implied by the term "supernatural"?

Wait, what about the transcendent nature have you experienced and understood, and how have you come to this experience and understanding?

Also, if by unnatural, you mean "Not of the natural", then yes, the supernatural is unnatural.

I don't know, but I doubt it. Anyway, 'supernatural' just has too much mystical baggage attached to it.

And transcendent, I would say, has just as much mystical baggage attached to it.

You can say transcendent, supernatural, otherworldly, extra-dimensional, or whatever else you can come up with. They all have the same meaning as far as our discussion is concerned; they exist outside the material world.


The real value in having faith in "God" begins when we understand that "God" is the personification of a divine mystery. A mystery that holds within it the source and sustenance and purpose of all that exists. It is why we are here, and what keeps us alive. And through it's source we all connected: all a part of the whole. And from that connection, and our recognition of it, that we gain unity, and wisdom, and strength, and courage, and healing, and love, and joy.

But the question remains, why should we believe in the mystery to begin with?

Because they mystery exists. And it exists because we are human. It's a part of who we are. And because how we deal with this mystery helps to define who we are as individuals. Even our avoiding these existential questions will still define us.

How does the fact that mysteries exist, proof of a divine mystery?


And who wouldn't want those things?

What makes you think that we require a belief in a divine mystery to have those things?

Personal observation and experience.

Again, I have those things. So clearly you are wrong.


I dont believe in it. Yet i have strength, courage, healing, love and joy in my life.

Why do you think you want those things?

I never said I want those things. I said I HAVE them.


Besides, it is the truth.

Not being very humble here, are you?

In fact, yes I am.

No, youre not.
pozessed
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4/20/2013 2:10:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 9:06:04 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
In anything more than the material world. Not just a knowledge that before our universe was created, or things at the quantum level, or that the way we feel about consciousness may not be completely to do with the material world. Give me a reason to actually believe in specifics of what these non-material objects are. You don't have to give scientific reasoning, just any kind of valid reasoning you can provide will be fine.

There are many strange things we don't understand, and I can claim I don't know the answers to how or why they happened. Why should I have a specific belief on the reasoning of these events? Of how and why they happened? Not just making an assumption of something causing them, just because it's a possible answer.

How about the fact that we have scientific laws in a seemingly chaotic universe. If the universe were to be as random and left to chance as science predicts, the scientific laws we have should not exist and should appear to be super natural, even science claims scientific laws to be a phenomena.
tkubok
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4/20/2013 2:31:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 2:10:01 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 4/20/2013 9:06:04 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
In anything more than the material world. Not just a knowledge that before our universe was created, or things at the quantum level, or that the way we feel about consciousness may not be completely to do with the material world. Give me a reason to actually believe in specifics of what these non-material objects are. You don't have to give scientific reasoning, just any kind of valid reasoning you can provide will be fine.

There are many strange things we don't understand, and I can claim I don't know the answers to how or why they happened. Why should I have a specific belief on the reasoning of these events? Of how and why they happened? Not just making an assumption of something causing them, just because it's a possible answer.

How about the fact that we have scientific laws in a seemingly chaotic universe. If the universe were to be as random and left to chance as science predicts, the scientific laws we have should not exist and should appear to be super natural, even science claims scientific laws to be a phenomena.

A phenomenon is defined as a fact, an occurence, or an event that is observed. So i dont understand why you would say "Even science claims the laws to be a phenomena" as if that would prove a point in your favor.

Also, no, the laws produce chaos. A black hole, for example, moves and exists because of the laws, yet is one of the most chaotic, destructive forces in nature. So i dont see how a chaotic universe is necessariliy conflicted by laws existing to govern and even produce Chaos within that universe. I mean, you would have to demonstrate that the universe is inherently chaotic without the laws(Which is absurd because if the laws didnt exist, nothing would exist, and nothing isnt chaos), in order for your argument to have some basis. And the same goes with random chance, which exists because of the laws. If i flip a coin, the coin still moves based on the laws of gravity and the force applied to it when i flipped it. But the outcome would still be random.
pozessed
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4/20/2013 2:55:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 2:31:12 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/20/2013 2:10:01 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 4/20/2013 9:06:04 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
In anything more than the material world. Not just a knowledge that before our universe was created, or things at the quantum level, or that the way we feel about consciousness may not be completely to do with the material world. Give me a reason to actually believe in specifics of what these non-material objects are. You don't have to give scientific reasoning, just any kind of valid reasoning you can provide will be fine.

There are many strange things we don't understand, and I can claim I don't know the answers to how or why they happened. Why should I have a specific belief on the reasoning of these events? Of how and why they happened? Not just making an assumption of something causing them, just because it's a possible answer.

How about the fact that we have scientific laws in a seemingly chaotic universe. If the universe were to be as random and left to chance as science predicts, the scientific laws we have should not exist and should appear to be super natural, even science claims scientific laws to be a phenomena.

A phenomenon is defined as a fact, an occurence, or an event that is observed. So i dont understand why you would say "Even science claims the laws to be a phenomena" as if that would prove a point in your favor.

Also, no, the laws produce chaos. A black hole, for example, moves and exists because of the laws, yet is one of the most chaotic, destructive forces in nature. So i dont see how a chaotic universe is necessariliy conflicted by laws existing to govern and even produce Chaos within that universe. I mean, you would have to demonstrate that the universe is inherently chaotic without the laws(Which is absurd because if the laws didnt exist, nothing would exist, and nothing isnt chaos), in order for your argument to have some basis. And the same goes with random chance, which exists because of the laws. If i flip a coin, the coin still moves based on the laws of gravity and the force applied to it when i flipped it. But the outcome would still be random.

That bold part above will be my point. Nobody observed these laws and how they came to exist. All we know is that they exist. If we could explain how these laws came to exist, we wouldn't have the "theory" of how the universe started. We would have the exact fact of how the universe started.

We can call these laws natural to help us in our endeavors, but that is no reason to forget we still don't have all the observable facts about them.
tkubok
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4/20/2013 2:59:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 2:55:13 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 4/20/2013 2:31:12 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/20/2013 2:10:01 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 4/20/2013 9:06:04 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
In anything more than the material world. Not just a knowledge that before our universe was created, or things at the quantum level, or that the way we feel about consciousness may not be completely to do with the material world. Give me a reason to actually believe in specifics of what these non-material objects are. You don't have to give scientific reasoning, just any kind of valid reasoning you can provide will be fine.

There are many strange things we don't understand, and I can claim I don't know the answers to how or why they happened. Why should I have a specific belief on the reasoning of these events? Of how and why they happened? Not just making an assumption of something causing them, just because it's a possible answer.

How about the fact that we have scientific laws in a seemingly chaotic universe. If the universe were to be as random and left to chance as science predicts, the scientific laws we have should not exist and should appear to be super natural, even science claims scientific laws to be a phenomena.

A phenomenon is defined as a fact, an occurence, or an event that is observed. So i dont understand why you would say "Even science claims the laws to be a phenomena" as if that would prove a point in your favor.

Also, no, the laws produce chaos. A black hole, for example, moves and exists because of the laws, yet is one of the most chaotic, destructive forces in nature. So i dont see how a chaotic universe is necessariliy conflicted by laws existing to govern and even produce Chaos within that universe. I mean, you would have to demonstrate that the universe is inherently chaotic without the laws(Which is absurd because if the laws didnt exist, nothing would exist, and nothing isnt chaos), in order for your argument to have some basis. And the same goes with random chance, which exists because of the laws. If i flip a coin, the coin still moves based on the laws of gravity and the force applied to it when i flipped it. But the outcome would still be random.

That bold part above will be my point. Nobody observed these laws and how they came to exist. All we know is that they exist. If we could explain how these laws came to exist, we wouldn't have the "theory" of how the universe started. We would have the exact fact of how the universe started.

First off, theories and facts are two different things. For example, evolution is both a fact and a theory. So claiming that we wouldnt have a theory, wed have a fact, is utterly meaningless.

Secondly, again, none of that has to do with whether the word phenomenon is anything remotely against, or even for, atheism. YOu said that science claims the laws to be a phenomena, and not the origin of the laws to be a phenomena, which science doesnt claim. Therefore, your entire argument here is debunked.

We can call these laws natural to help us in our endeavors, but that is no reason to forget we still don't have all the observable facts about them.

Again, what does this have to do with the supernatural? Are you saying that because we dont have observable facts, that therefore we must accept the supernatural explanation?
PureX
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4/20/2013 3:29:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 2:04:15 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/20/2013 12:38:10 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/20/2013 11:38:24 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/20/2013 11:21:49 AM, PureX wrote:
At 4/20/2013 9:06:04 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
In anything more than the material world. Not just a knowledge that before our universe was created, or things at the quantum level, or that the way we feel about consciousness may not be completely to do with the material world. Give me a reason to actually believe in specifics of what these non-material objects are. You don't have to give scientific reasoning, just any kind of valid reasoning you can provide will be fine.

There are many strange things we don't understand, and I can claim I don't know the answers to how or why they happened. Why should I have a specific belief on the reasoning of these events? Of how and why they happened? Not just making an assumption of something causing them, just because it's a possible answer.

Humility.


What does humility have to do with anything? We're not claiming that this is necessarily absolutely impossible, what were asking for is a reason to believe.

The reason is that it's the truth.

Again, wheres your humility. Arent you humble enough to admit that maybe this isnt the truth?

By observing the reality (truth) of a great existential mystery. I have made no assertion that could then be found false.

If we conceive of "God" as the divine mystery source, sustenance, and purpose of all things, we aren't being dishonest. Because the way we humans experience our existence leads us to contemplate exactly those ideals. And they are indeed a divine (transcendent) mystery to us.

The original question asked is essentialy, why would you conceive of God as the divine mystery source to begin with.

"God" is just the word we use to refer to this great existential mystery. It could be any word, and is a different word in different languages. There's no need to get hung up on the word "God".

Also, if its a mystery, how could you believe in it. A mystery is not an explanation.
"God" is not an explanation, except in the more elementary and immature interpretations of religious narratives.

A mystery is not a cause.

No, it's causation that's part of the mystery.

The question posed is not rejecting our ability not to know, its asking for a justification to claim to know or claim to believe in something that is supernatural. And people can and do claim to believe or know that God, that heaven and hell, that angels and demons and the supernatural exist.

That's their business, don't you think? I'm not proposing nor defending such superstitious 'beliefs'. And I don't think they're the subject of the thread.

Note that I wrote:
"You are already mistaken if you think that having faith in God is nothing more than presuming (believing) some religious mythical scenario is the "answer" to all our questions about the cause, purpose, and meaning of our existence. Some people call that kind of pretense faith, but really, it's just pretense. It may provide them with some comfort, but mostly it just closes their minds with fake knowledge, and hardens their hearts with a false sense of self-righteousness."

Dont you have to believe that the supernatural exists, before you can believe in God? Isnt that belief a pre-requisite?

No, I don't believe that it is a prerequisite. I believe a lot of atheists make it a prerequisite, because it's easy for them to refute. And I believe a lot of naive religionists hold it as a prerequisite because their religion is based on superstition, rather than reason. But I personally see no reason to insist that God must be "supernatural".

However, the way we humans experience existence is such that we understand it as being the expression of intricate interlocking chains of causes and effects. Yet when we read the causes backward, we cannot grasp their origin, and when we extrapolate the effects forward, we cannot predict the results or grasp their intent. And we find this very troubling, because it leads us to suspect that the source and the purpose must be of some sort of transcendent nature, because it can't be apprehended from nature as we currently know and experience it. And it's troubling, too, because not knowing where we come from, and not knowing where we're going means we have no idea what we're doing here for in the first place.

These are fundamental existential questions that define the human condition. And it's our reaction to them that define us a individual humans, too. So they are important questions.

So again I say:
"This is why I prefer the term "transcendent". The mystery is transcendent of nature as we currently experience and understand it. But is it UN-natural, as is implied by the term "supernatural"? I don't know, but I don't think so."

You can say transcendent, supernatural, otherworldly, extra-dimensional, or whatever else you can come up with. They all have the same meaning as far as our discussion is concerned; they exist outside the material world.

Each term has a somewhat different meaning, and I feel that "transcendent" is the most appropriate choice. Whatever caused existence to exist, must by definition transcend existence as we know it. It's that simple.


The real value in having faith in "God" begins when we understand that "God" is the personification of a divine mystery. A mystery that holds within it the source and sustenance and purpose of all that exists. It is why we are here, and what keeps us alive. And through it's source we all connected: all a part of the whole. And from that connection, and our recognition of it, that we gain unity, and wisdom, and strength, and courage, and healing, and love, and joy.

But the question remains, why should we believe in the mystery to begin with?

Because they mystery exists. And it exists because we are human. It's a part of who we are. And because how we deal with this mystery helps to define who we are as individuals. Even our avoiding these existential questions will still define us.

How does the fact that mysteries exist, proof of a divine mystery?

This is the ultimate mystery. It is the mystery that defines us as human. It is the mystery that produces all other mysteries. It is a mystery that transcends existence, itself. So I called it the "divine" mystery. Seemed an appropriate term to me.
pozessed
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4/20/2013 3:34:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 2:59:55 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/20/2013 2:55:13 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 4/20/2013 2:31:12 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/20/2013 2:10:01 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 4/20/2013 9:06:04 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
In anything more than the material world. Not just a knowledge that before our universe was created, or things at the quantum level, or that the way we feel about consciousness may not be completely to do with the material world. Give me a reason to actually believe in specifics of what these non-material objects are. You don't have to give scientific reasoning, just any kind of valid reasoning you can provide will be fine.

There are many strange things we don't understand, and I can claim I don't know the answers to how or why they happened. Why should I have a specific belief on the reasoning of these events? Of how and why they happened? Not just making an assumption of something causing them, just because it's a possible answer.

How about the fact that we have scientific laws in a seemingly chaotic universe. If the universe were to be as random and left to chance as science predicts, the scientific laws we have should not exist and should appear to be super natural, even science claims scientific laws to be a phenomena.

A phenomenon is defined as a fact, an occurence, or an event that is observed. So i dont understand why you would say "Even science claims the laws to be a phenomena" as if that would prove a point in your favor.

Also, no, the laws produce chaos. A black hole, for example, moves and exists because of the laws, yet is one of the most chaotic, destructive forces in nature. So i dont see how a chaotic universe is necessariliy conflicted by laws existing to govern and even produce Chaos within that universe. I mean, you would have to demonstrate that the universe is inherently chaotic without the laws(Which is absurd because if the laws didnt exist, nothing would exist, and nothing isnt chaos), in order for your argument to have some basis. And the same goes with random chance, which exists because of the laws. If i flip a coin, the coin still moves based on the laws of gravity and the force applied to it when i flipped it. But the outcome would still be random.

That bold part above will be my point. Nobody observed these laws and how they came to exist. All we know is that they exist. If we could explain how these laws came to exist, we wouldn't have the "theory" of how the universe started. We would have the exact fact of how the universe started.

First off, theories and facts are two different things. For example, evolution is both a fact and a theory. So claiming that we wouldnt have a theory, wed have a fact, is utterly meaningless.

Secondly, again, none of that has to do with whether the word phenomenon is anything remotely against, or even for, atheism. YOu said that science claims the laws to be a phenomena, and not the origin of the laws to be a phenomena, which science doesnt claim. Therefore, your entire argument here is debunked.

Thank you for pointing out that my grammatical error in my first argument. That still doesn't negate what I say. I don't doubt evolution as a fact, nor do I doubt our scientific laws as factual.
I do however doubt we can explain their cause for existence in an observable fashion at this time. Though the Higgs is making a wonderful attempt to help in that matter I read recently.

We can call these laws natural to help us in our endeavors, but that is no reason to forget we still don't have all the observable facts about them.

Again, what does this have to do with the supernatural? Are you saying that because we dont have observable facts, that therefore we must accept the supernatural explanation?

Honestly, I'm not saying you need to accept anything. I'm just giving you my point of view and my line of thinking.
Vocabulary makes communication limited and I'm trying to explain the best way I can.
AlbinoBunny
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4/20/2013 4:47:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
So no one has a reason for me to believe in specifics then?
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4/20/2013 4:49:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 4:47:45 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
So no one has a reason for me to believe in specifics then?

Geeze, bunny, don't you understand? The reason is that you have to be humble, and therefore make unfounded assertions stated as absolute fact.
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AlbinoBunny
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4/20/2013 4:57:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 4:49:20 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 4/20/2013 4:47:45 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
So no one has a reason for me to believe in specifics then?

Geeze, bunny, don't you understand? The reason is that you have to be humble, and therefore make unfounded assertions stated as absolute fact.

I can't believe I've been kept out of the loop for so long. Thanks guys, thanks a lot.
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Pennington
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4/20/2013 5:19:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 9:06:04 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
In anything more than the material world. Not just a knowledge that before our universe was created, or things at the quantum level, or that the way we feel about consciousness may not be completely to do with the material world. Give me a reason to actually believe in specifics of what these non-material objects are. You don't have to give scientific reasoning, just any kind of valid reasoning you can provide will be fine.

There are many strange things we don't understand, and I can claim I don't know the answers to how or why they happened. Why should I have a specific belief on the reasoning of these events? Of how and why they happened? Not just making an assumption of something causing them, just because it's a possible answer.

Our scientific evidence can be correct and still God sped up the physical process of it within 6 days. God could have actually created everything beyond physical processes. These are possible because no matter what argument you have, if God is real then He can whatever He likes. It would be from a intelligent mind to have laws and designed processes for a creation. Our scientific evidence can simply be not all there is needed to check for true age and origin. Science is simply limited and they know it furthermore. How can a process limited in knowledge, give us the knowledge we seek? The only thing that reach that knowledge science is limited too is philosophy, thought. Science is made of thought. Thought is beyond physical means, it imagines beyond just the physical, we all have creativity. Without those creative thoughts we would not have the technology we have today. I believe first and foremost because I have a personnel relationship with God. It is not always a good one for me, I sin, I do what I should not and have to humble myself and repent for my errors. I have pride. It hurts. I believe secondly because of history and the common theme of them and my belief agrees with the common theme of history. The condition of the world, with tremendous good and tremendous bad, like my belief system suggest. The way the world has become in just my lifetime is equally described in my beliefs. I am not the only one who has all the same feelings and experiences and if others who I have never met or know can feel the samething then that's evidence. History and beliefs are not so similar for no good reason. Human history did not just spring up roughly 6,7,8 thousand years ago and we suppose to be around for millions, math don't work. The book I base my belief has time and time again proven accurate. The only problems people have with the Bible is misconceptions. They actually believe that terms and facts we believe today apply then. Language changes, meanings change. When these are looked at they are questionable at best and the record shows the Bible properly identifying acient peoples we have discovered, acient cities we thought did not exist, We find a lot more evidence that agrees with science that disagrees. Then on top of it all, people wrongly assume that physical laws play any real rule to the God that created them. They can be altered at His will for His purpose, with that you have nothing when speaking in just physical terms.
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PureX
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4/20/2013 6:04:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 2:31:12 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/20/2013 2:10:01 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 4/20/2013 9:06:04 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
In anything more than the material world. Not just a knowledge that before our universe was created, or things at the quantum level, or that the way we feel about consciousness may not be completely to do with the material world. Give me a reason to actually believe in specifics of what these non-material objects are. You don't have to give scientific reasoning, just any kind of valid reasoning you can provide will be fine.

There are many strange things we don't understand, and I can claim I don't know the answers to how or why they happened. Why should I have a specific belief on the reasoning of these events? Of how and why they happened? Not just making an assumption of something causing them, just because it's a possible answer.

How about the fact that we have scientific laws in a seemingly chaotic universe. If the universe were to be as random and left to chance as science predicts, the scientific laws we have should not exist and should appear to be super natural, even science claims scientific laws to be a phenomena.

A phenomenon is defined as a fact, an occurence, or an event that is observed. So i dont understand why you would say "Even science claims the laws to be a phenomena" as if that would prove a point in your favor.

Also, no, the laws produce chaos. A black hole, for example, moves and exists because of the laws, yet is one of the most chaotic, destructive forces in nature. So i dont see how a chaotic universe is necessariliy conflicted by laws existing to govern and even produce Chaos within that universe. I mean, you would have to demonstrate that the universe is inherently chaotic without the laws(Which is absurd because if the laws didnt exist, nothing would exist, and nothing isnt chaos), in order for your argument to have some basis. And the same goes with random chance, which exists because of the laws. If i flip a coin, the coin still moves based on the laws of gravity and the force applied to it when i flipped it. But the outcome would still be random.

The faulty assumption here is that the argument is about a choice between either chaos or order. But that isn't how things come to be. Existence is an expression of the relationship between chaos (chance) and order (limitation). BOTH will be observable phenomena to us.

The philosophical/theological questions have to do with: what is energy?, why is it limited at all?, and what is the source of both the energy and the limitations being imposed on the way energy expresses itself? So far, these questions remain completely beyond the reach of scientific inquiry, because science cannot get outside of either of these phenomena to a position from which the could be observed.
tkubok
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4/20/2013 6:10:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 3:29:57 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/20/2013 2:04:15 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/20/2013 12:38:10 PM, PureX wrote:
The reason is that it's the truth.

Again, wheres your humility. Arent you humble enough to admit that maybe this isnt the truth?

By observing the reality (truth) of a great existential mystery. I have made no assertion that could then be found false.

If we conceive of "God" as the divine mystery source, sustenance, and purpose of all things, we aren't being dishonest. Because the way we humans experience our existence leads us to contemplate exactly those ideals. And they are indeed a divine (transcendent) mystery to us.

The original question asked is essentialy, why would you conceive of God as the divine mystery source to begin with.

"God" is just the word we use to refer to this great existential mystery. It could be any word, and is a different word in different languages. There's no need to get hung up on the word "God".

I still dont understand what you mean by "Existential mystery".


Also, if its a mystery, how could you believe in it. A mystery is not an explanation.
"God" is not an explanation, except in the more elementary and immature interpretations of religious narratives.

A mystery is not a cause.

No, it's causation that's part of the mystery.

A mystery is not causation either.

The causation can be a mystery, but the mystery cannot be the causation. Do you understand the difference?


The question posed is not rejecting our ability not to know, its asking for a justification to claim to know or claim to believe in something that is supernatural. And people can and do claim to believe or know that God, that heaven and hell, that angels and demons and the supernatural exist.

That's their business, don't you think? I'm not proposing nor defending such superstitious 'beliefs'. And I don't think they're the subject of the thread.

Well, no, its not superstitious, its supernatural. Different word.

And so, you dont believe in the supernatural? Is that what youre saying?

Note that I wrote:
"You are already mistaken if you think that having faith in God is nothing more than presuming (believing) some religious mythical scenario is the "answer" to all our questions about the cause, purpose, and meaning of our existence. Some people call that kind of pretense faith, but really, it's just pretense. It may provide them with some comfort, but mostly it just closes their minds with fake knowledge, and hardens their hearts with a false sense of self-righteousness."

And you will recall that I wrote:

"No, what hes talking about is the supernatural itself, and not a mythical scenario providing answers to questions. "

I.e. This has nothing to do with the topic in question. If you want to go off on a tangent, start a new thread.

Dont you have to believe that the supernatural exists, before you can believe in God? Isnt that belief a pre-requisite?

No, I don't believe that it is a prerequisite. I believe a lot of atheists make it a prerequisite, because it's easy for them to refute. And I believe a lot of naive religionists hold it as a prerequisite because their religion is based on superstition, rather than reason. But I personally see no reason to insist that God must be "supernatural".

So what the hell is God?

However, the way we humans experience existence is such that we understand it as being the expression of intricate interlocking chains of causes and effects. Yet when we read the causes backward, we cannot grasp their origin, and when we extrapolate the effects forward, we cannot predict the results or grasp their intent. And we find this very troubling, because it leads us to suspect that the source and the purpose must be of some sort of transcendent nature, because it can't be apprehended from nature as we currently know and experience it. And it's troubling, too, because not knowing where we come from, and not knowing where we're going means we have no idea what we're doing here for in the first place.

Nope, there is no reason to presume that he first cause could not be natural, as would be the case with the singularity that existed before the big bang. The singularity that exists before the big bang is not transcendent in nature, it is still part of the natural world.

Furthermore, you also ignore the possibility of an infinite chain of cause and effect, somethign that the hinuds believe, for example.

These are fundamental existential questions that define the human condition. And it's our reaction to them that define us a individual humans, too. So they are important questions.

You seem to have ignored some of the possibilities.

So again I say:
"This is why I prefer the term "transcendent". The mystery is transcendent of nature as we currently experience and understand it. But is it UN-natural, as is implied by the term "supernatural"? I don't know, but I don't think so."

Okay, so what is the difference between transcendent and supernatural.

How does the fact that mysteries exist, proof of a divine mystery?

This is the ultimate mystery. It is the mystery that defines us as human. It is the mystery that produces all other mysteries. It is a mystery that transcends existence, itself. So I called it the "divine" mystery. Seemed an appropriate term to me.
Why would you call something that is ultimate, as divine. Divine is defined as such:

http://dictionary.reference.com...

What would that have to do with something that is ultimate?
tkubok
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4/20/2013 6:14:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 3:34:56 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 4/20/2013 2:59:55 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/20/2013 2:55:13 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 4/20/2013 2:31:12 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/20/2013 2:10:01 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 4/20/2013 9:06:04 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
In anything more than the material world. Not just a knowledge that before our universe was created, or things at the quantum level, or that the way we feel about consciousness may not be completely to do with the material world. Give me a reason to actually believe in specifics of what these non-material objects are. You don't have to give scientific reasoning, just any kind of valid reasoning you can provide will be fine.

There are many strange things we don't understand, and I can claim I don't know the answers to how or why they happened. Why should I have a specific belief on the reasoning of these events? Of how and why they happened? Not just making an assumption of something causing them, just because it's a possible answer.

How about the fact that we have scientific laws in a seemingly chaotic universe. If the universe were to be as random and left to chance as science predicts, the scientific laws we have should not exist and should appear to be super natural, even science claims scientific laws to be a phenomena.

A phenomenon is defined as a fact, an occurence, or an event that is observed. So i dont understand why you would say "Even science claims the laws to be a phenomena" as if that would prove a point in your favor.

Also, no, the laws produce chaos. A black hole, for example, moves and exists because of the laws, yet is one of the most chaotic, destructive forces in nature. So i dont see how a chaotic universe is necessariliy conflicted by laws existing to govern and even produce Chaos within that universe. I mean, you would have to demonstrate that the universe is inherently chaotic without the laws(Which is absurd because if the laws didnt exist, nothing would exist, and nothing isnt chaos), in order for your argument to have some basis. And the same goes with random chance, which exists because of the laws. If i flip a coin, the coin still moves based on the laws of gravity and the force applied to it when i flipped it. But the outcome would still be random.

That bold part above will be my point. Nobody observed these laws and how they came to exist. All we know is that they exist. If we could explain how these laws came to exist, we wouldn't have the "theory" of how the universe started. We would have the exact fact of how the universe started.

First off, theories and facts are two different things. For example, evolution is both a fact and a theory. So claiming that we wouldnt have a theory, wed have a fact, is utterly meaningless.

Secondly, again, none of that has to do with whether the word phenomenon is anything remotely against, or even for, atheism. YOu said that science claims the laws to be a phenomena, and not the origin of the laws to be a phenomena, which science doesnt claim. Therefore, your entire argument here is debunked.

Thank you for pointing out that my grammatical error in my first argument.

What grammatical error?

That still doesn't negate what I say. I don't doubt evolution as a fact, nor do I doubt our scientific laws as factual.

I never said you did doubt that evolution is a fact and a theory. My contention was that you do not understand the difference, if you are going to claim that we would no longer call something a theory if we could explain how it came into existance. Explaining something doesnt make it a fact. A direct and obvious observation makes something a fact.

I do however doubt we can explain their cause for existence in an observable fashion at this time. Though the Higgs is making a wonderful attempt to help in that matter I read recently.

Sure. Whats your point.


We can call these laws natural to help us in our endeavors, but that is no reason to forget we still don't have all the observable facts about them.

Again, what does this have to do with the supernatural? Are you saying that because we dont have observable facts, that therefore we must accept the supernatural explanation?

Honestly, I'm not saying you need to accept anything. I'm just giving you my point of view and my line of thinking.
Vocabulary makes communication limited and I'm trying to explain the best way I can.

I think vocabulary, talking and writing, is a perfectly adequate method of relaying information. The only time it presents a problem is when youre trying to relay information within restrictions, or when you dont understand what you actually believe and therefore cannot rely the information accurately.

So you are saying that your comments have nothing to do with the topic at hand?
PureX
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4/20/2013 6:15:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 4:47:45 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
So no one has a reason for me to believe in specifics then?
There are a number of reasons why people believe things. Mostly, we believe what we want to be so, and sometimes even need to believe is so. We believe whatever "works" out for us as we live our lives. And we believe whatever is easiest.

I really don't know how to respond to your request. How could I? Only you know what you want, need, and are too lazy to reconsider.
popculturepooka
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4/20/2013 6:22:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 9:06:04 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
In anything more than the material world.

Why would you have the belief that there is nothing more to the material world in the first place?
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DakotaKrafick
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4/20/2013 6:31:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 6:22:32 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/20/2013 9:06:04 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
In anything more than the material world.

Why would you have the belief that there is nothing more to the material world in the first place?

I wouldn't necessarily believe the material world is all there is, but then I wouldn't necessarily believe there's more either. Why should one believe there is more than the material world?
tkubok
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4/20/2013 6:46:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 6:04:27 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/20/2013 2:31:12 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/20/2013 2:10:01 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 4/20/2013 9:06:04 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
In anything more than the material world. Not just a knowledge that before our universe was created, or things at the quantum level, or that the way we feel about consciousness may not be completely to do with the material world. Give me a reason to actually believe in specifics of what these non-material objects are. You don't have to give scientific reasoning, just any kind of valid reasoning you can provide will be fine.

There are many strange things we don't understand, and I can claim I don't know the answers to how or why they happened. Why should I have a specific belief on the reasoning of these events? Of how and why they happened? Not just making an assumption of something causing them, just because it's a possible answer.

How about the fact that we have scientific laws in a seemingly chaotic universe. If the universe were to be as random and left to chance as science predicts, the scientific laws we have should not exist and should appear to be super natural, even science claims scientific laws to be a phenomena.

A phenomenon is defined as a fact, an occurence, or an event that is observed. So i dont understand why you would say "Even science claims the laws to be a phenomena" as if that would prove a point in your favor.

Also, no, the laws produce chaos. A black hole, for example, moves and exists because of the laws, yet is one of the most chaotic, destructive forces in nature. So i dont see how a chaotic universe is necessariliy conflicted by laws existing to govern and even produce Chaos within that universe. I mean, you would have to demonstrate that the universe is inherently chaotic without the laws(Which is absurd because if the laws didnt exist, nothing would exist, and nothing isnt chaos), in order for your argument to have some basis. And the same goes with random chance, which exists because of the laws. If i flip a coin, the coin still moves based on the laws of gravity and the force applied to it when i flipped it. But the outcome would still be random.

The faulty assumption here is that the argument is about a choice between either chaos or order. But that isn't how things come to be. Existence is an expression of the relationship between chaos (chance) and order (limitation). BOTH will be observable phenomena to us.

First off, I dont agree. If chaos is chance, then order would be predictability.

Secondly, surely there are more to existence than just those two.

The philosophical/theological questions have to do with: what is energy?, why is it limited at all?, and what is the source of both the energy and the limitations being imposed on the way energy expresses itself? So far, these questions remain completely beyond the reach of scientific inquiry, because science cannot get outside of either of these phenomena to a position from which the could be observed.

Only in philosophy could you take a scientific construct and add things to it to make it unnecessarily complicated and therefore unknowable.

We know what energy is. We know why it is limited. We know its source, atleast for now. And we also have a good understanding of its limits. Even a 10th grader can tell you the answer to those questions. Seriously. I just realized how badly the public education system failed you, which explains a lot.

And what do you mean by "God outside either of these phenomena from a position which the could be observed"? Do you not understand that I, sitting infront of my computer, am observing the energy run through it?
tkubok
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4/20/2013 6:49:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 6:15:40 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/20/2013 4:47:45 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
So no one has a reason for me to believe in specifics then?
There are a number of reasons why people believe things. Mostly, we believe what we want to be so, and sometimes even need to believe is so. We believe whatever "works" out for us as we live our lives. And we believe whatever is easiest.

This is possibly the smartest thing ive heard you say so far.

I really don't know how to respond to your request. How could I? Only you know what you want, need, and are too lazy to reconsider.

And then you ruin it.

Before one can believe, they must be convinced. What the OP is asking is what justification, what convinced you that your belief is accurate. Hes not asking what would convince him, hes asking what convinced you.
PureX
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4/20/2013 8:19:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 6:49:24 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/20/2013 6:15:40 PM, PureX wrote:
At 4/20/2013 4:47:45 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
So no one has a reason for me to believe in specifics then?
There are a number of reasons why people believe things. Mostly, we believe what we want to be so, and sometimes even need to believe is so. We believe whatever "works" out for us as we live our lives. And we believe whatever is easiest.

This is possibly the smartest thing ive heard you say so far.

I really don't know how to respond to your request. How could I? Only you know what you want, need, and are too lazy to reconsider.

And then you ruin it.

Before one can believe, they must be convinced. What the OP is asking is what justification, what convinced you that your belief is accurate. Hes not asking what would convince him, hes asking what convinced you.

Several posters offered their own reasoning, but apparently these were not found to be acceptable.

Thus, my comments.
AlbinoBunny
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4/20/2013 9:37:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You're assuming I'm too lazy to reconsider something?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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Radar
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4/21/2013 1:09:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 9:06:04 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
In anything more than the material world. Not just a knowledge that before our universe was created, or things at the quantum level, or that the way we feel about consciousness may not be completely to do with the material world. Give me a reason to actually believe in specifics of what these non-material objects are. You don't have to give scientific reasoning, just any kind of valid reasoning you can provide will be fine.

There are many strange things we don't understand, and I can claim I don't know the answers to how or why they happened. Why should I have a specific belief on the reasoning of these events? Of how and why they happened? Not just making an assumption of something causing them, just because it's a possible answer.

That would be like trying to give a fish some water to drink or trying to fill a full cup.
Radar
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4/21/2013 1:11:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 9:37:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
You're assuming I'm too lazy to reconsider something?

Either that or too self-satisfied to give a hoot.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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4/21/2013 4:06:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/21/2013 1:11:00 AM, Radar wrote:
At 4/20/2013 9:37:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
You're assuming I'm too lazy to reconsider something?

Either that or too self-satisfied to give a hoot.

And how can that claim be supported?
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