Total Posts:148|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Agnosticism is the only logical choice

drhead
Posts: 1,475
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 2:49:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"The ancient oracle said that I was the wisest of all the Greeks. It is because I alone, of all the Greeks, know that I know nothing." - Socrates

This quote is quite useful when applied to religion. One of man's greatest flaws is the tendency to jump to conclusions, whether we have one or not. We cannot know if a god exists, since we won't meet him and know for sure until we die, and by that point, it'll be too late to relay the message. We also can't know for sure that one doesn't exist, even though we are forced to assume this until provided evidence to the contrary, which doesn't make for a certain conclusion. Agnosticism acknowledges this paradox - it recognizes that we know nothing.
Wall of Fail

"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
"For me, Evolution is a zombie theory. I mean imaginary cartoons and wishful thinking support it?" - Dragonfang
"There are no mental health benefits of atheism. It is devoid of rational thinking and mental protection." - Gabrian
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 2:57:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 2:49:38 PM, drhead wrote:
"The ancient oracle said that I was the wisest of all the Greeks. It is because I alone, of all the Greeks, know that I know nothing." - Socrates

This quote is quite useful when applied to religion. One of man's greatest flaws is the tendency to jump to conclusions, whether we have one or not. We cannot know if a god exists, since we won't meet him and know for sure until we die, and by that point, it'll be too late to relay the message. We also can't know for sure that one doesn't exist, even though we are forced to assume this until provided evidence to the contrary, which doesn't make for a certain conclusion. Agnosticism acknowledges this paradox - it recognizes that we know nothing.

Theists will just argue that they know him very well. Just because you do not, doesn't mean that you can conclude that the human race, as a whole, cannot know God exists. Theists claim to have a close relationship to God, and know he exists though this method. Of course, it sounds like complete nonsense. However, they will claim it none the less.
Magic8000
Posts: 975
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 3:00:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I struggled with this a little before. I really didn't know if I was an agnostic or atheist. However atheism is the lack of belief in a God, if you don't know if God exists, you still lack a belief in God. This would be called agnostic or weak atheism.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 3:19:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 3:00:19 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
I struggled with this a little before. I really didn't know if I was an agnostic or atheist. However atheism is the lack of belief in a God, if you don't know if God exists, you still lack a belief in God. This would be called agnostic or weak atheism.

Yes, but you also lack belief that God doesn't exist as well. Since you lack the belief God exists, and the belief that he doesn't exist, it's best just to call yourself Agnostic. If one is a weak Atheist because they lack a belief in God, are they also a weak theist because they lack the belief God doesn't exist?
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 3:20:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
But agnosticism only addresses what we know (or rather, it is the position that we don't know), it doesn't address the "God" question at all.

"Weak" atheism is also called "agnostic" atheism; it is the acceptance that one doesn't know for a fact there is no such thing as a God of some sort, but the lack of acceptance of the knowledge claimed by theists.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
medv4380
Posts: 200
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 3:31:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
When dealing with Agnosticism you have a very wide spectrum. You have Agnostic Theist on one hand that is fairly sure a God of some kind exists, but doesn't see any evidence for any particular Theistic interpretation to be taken over the other. Then you have the Agnostic Atheist that is fairly sure a God doesn't exist, but wont throw out that last possibility that God may exist. Richard Dawkins considers himself to be an Agnostic, but he qualifies as Agnostic Atheist. On the other hand I am one of those "namby-pamby, mushy pap, weak-tea, weedy, pallid fence-sitters" he likes to talk smack about.
Radar
Posts: 424
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 3:41:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 2:49:38 PM, drhead wrote:
"The ancient oracle said that I was the wisest of all the Greeks. It is because I alone, of all the Greeks, know that I know nothing." - Socrates

This quote is quite useful when applied to religion. One of man's greatest flaws is the tendency to jump to conclusions, whether we have one or not. We cannot know if a god exists, since we won't meet him and know for sure until we die, and by that point, it'll be too late to relay the message. We also can't know for sure that one doesn't exist, even though we are forced to assume this until provided evidence to the contrary, which doesn't make for a certain conclusion. Agnosticism acknowledges this paradox - it recognizes that we know nothing.

No, it's not. Some will say Socrates was a mystic speaking, through Plato, in a way that is very typical of mystical theists.

I suggest you delve more deeply before making such rash statements.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 3:59:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 3:20:48 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
But agnosticism only addresses what we know (or rather, it is the position that we don't know), it doesn't address the "God" question at all.

"Weak" atheism is also called "agnostic" atheism; it is the acceptance that one doesn't know for a fact there is no such thing as a God of some sort, but the lack of acceptance of the knowledge claimed by theists.

If agnostic atheism is the result of lack of belief that God exists, then wouldn't agnostic theism be the result of lack in belief that God doesn't exist? I see no reason why one would be to referred to as a weak atheist because they lack belief in the existence of God, but not an agnostic theist because they also lack the belief that doesn't doesn't exist either. If you lack both beliefs, then Agnosticism is the best term.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 4:14:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
We need more varied and detailed definitions.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
medv4380
Posts: 200
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 4:26:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 3:59:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you lack both beliefs, then Agnosticism is the best term.

What about instead of lack of both beliefs you have both beliefs.
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 4:28:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 4:26:27 PM, medv4380 wrote:
At 4/23/2013 3:59:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you lack both beliefs, then Agnosticism is the best term.

What about instead of lack of both beliefs you have both beliefs.

Then you have serious issues.
medv4380
Posts: 200
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 4:31:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 4:28:22 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 4/23/2013 4:26:27 PM, medv4380 wrote:
At 4/23/2013 3:59:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you lack both beliefs, then Agnosticism is the best term.

What about instead of lack of both beliefs you have both beliefs.

Then you have serious issues.

What type of issues would you expect of someone who believes it's viable that God doesn't exist and viable that God does exist?
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 4:32:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 4:26:27 PM, medv4380 wrote:
At 4/23/2013 3:59:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you lack both beliefs, then Agnosticism is the best term.

What about instead of lack of both beliefs you have both beliefs.

I lack a belief in gods, and I lack the lack of belief in gods... lol
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 4:33:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 4:32:05 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/23/2013 4:26:27 PM, medv4380 wrote:
At 4/23/2013 3:59:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you lack both beliefs, then Agnosticism is the best term.

What about instead of lack of both beliefs you have both beliefs.

I lack a belief in gods, and I lack the lack of belief in gods... lol

No. You lack the belief that God exists, and you lack the belief that he doesn't exist.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 4:35:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 4:33:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/23/2013 4:32:05 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/23/2013 4:26:27 PM, medv4380 wrote:
At 4/23/2013 3:59:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you lack both beliefs, then Agnosticism is the best term.

What about instead of lack of both beliefs you have both beliefs.

I lack a belief in gods, and I lack the lack of belief in gods... lol

No. You lack the belief that God exists, and you lack the belief that he doesn't exist.

I find my wit lacking.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 4:36:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 4:31:37 PM, medv4380 wrote:
At 4/23/2013 4:28:22 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 4/23/2013 4:26:27 PM, medv4380 wrote:
At 4/23/2013 3:59:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you lack both beliefs, then Agnosticism is the best term.

What about instead of lack of both beliefs you have both beliefs.

Then you have serious issues.

What type of issues would you expect of someone who believes it's viable that God doesn't exist and viable that God does exist?

Didn't say viable now did he? But I would expect issues of someone who believed god existed and didn't exist simultaneously.
lannan13
Posts: 23,107
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 4:41:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I highly disagree here though I am Catholic I due believe you can believe what you want as long as you don't try to inforce it on others. You know what they say Agnosticism is like a d!ck: it's fun to have as long as you don't wip it out in public and try to shove it down someone's throat. The person who brought this up has obviously violated that rule and is trying to shove it down DDO's throat.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 4:41:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 4:26:27 PM, medv4380 wrote:
At 4/23/2013 3:59:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you lack both beliefs, then Agnosticism is the best term.

What about instead of lack of both beliefs you have both beliefs.

It's impossible to have both beliefs that God exists, and he doesn't exist without contradiction. So, what you are saying makes no sense.
medv4380
Posts: 200
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 4:42:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 4:36:47 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
Didn't say viable now did he? But I would expect issues of someone who believed god existed and didn't exist simultaneously.

Wouldn't that just be God as a Superposition? That still avoids the question of what issues would you expect.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 4:44:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 4:42:50 PM, medv4380 wrote:
At 4/23/2013 4:36:47 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
Didn't say viable now did he? But I would expect issues of someone who believed god existed and didn't exist simultaneously.

Wouldn't that just be God as a Superposition? That still avoids the question of what issues would you expect.

Try not to mix superposition and superstition.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,517
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 4:46:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 3:19:47 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/23/2013 3:00:19 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
I struggled with this a little before. I really didn't know if I was an agnostic or atheist. However atheism is the lack of belief in a God, if you don't know if God exists, you still lack a belief in God. This would be called agnostic or weak atheism.

Yes, but you also lack belief that God doesn't exist as well. Since you lack the belief God exists, and the belief that he doesn't exist, it's best just to call yourself Agnostic. If one is a weak Atheist because they lack a belief in God, are they also a weak theist because they lack the belief God doesn't exist?

One is a weak atheist because they (1) don't believe gods exist, and (2) don't believe gods don't exist. So, yes.

If (1) applies but (2) does not, then they are not a weak atheist, but a strong atheist. What other discrepancy between the two would you use to distinguish them?
Someguy224
Posts: 5
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 4:48:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Everyones entilted to their religion. Due to this, they strongly believe their religion, and therfore it is most logical to them, this can not be argued.
natoast
Posts: 204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 5:44:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 4:41:21 PM, lannan13 wrote:
I highly disagree here though I am Catholic I due believe you can believe what you want as long as you don't try to inforce it on others.

Don't you want a theocracy?

You know what they say Agnosticism is like a d!ck: it's fun to have as long as you don't wip it out in public and try to shove it down someone's throat. The person who brought this up has obviously violated that rule and is trying to shove it down DDO's throat.
Pennington
Posts: 1,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 5:46:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 4:48:16 PM, Someguy224 wrote:
Everyones entilted to their religion. Due to this, they strongly believe their religion, and therfore it is most logical to them, this can not be argued.
DDO Debate Champion Forum
http://www.debate.org...
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 6:10:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 2:49:38 PM, drhead wrote:
"The ancient oracle said that I was the wisest of all the Greeks. It is because I alone, of all the Greeks, know that I know nothing." - Socrates

This quote is quite useful when applied to religion. One of man's greatest flaws is the tendency to jump to conclusions, whether we have one or not. We cannot know if a god exists, since we won't meet him and know for sure until we die, and by that point, it'll be too late to relay the message. We also can't know for sure that one doesn't exist, even though we are forced to assume this until provided evidence to the contrary, which doesn't make for a certain conclusion. Agnosticism acknowledges this paradox - it recognizes that we know nothing.

Do you believe a god or gods exist?
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,254
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/23/2013 6:16:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"The agnostic viewpoint poses as fair, impartial, and balanced. See how many fallacies you can find in it. Here are a few obvious ones: First, the agnostic allows the arbitrary into the realm of human cognition. He treats arbitrary claims as ideas proper to consider, discuss, evaluate"and then he regretfully says, "I don"t know," instead of dismissing the arbitrary out of hand. Second, the onus-of-proof issue: the agnostic demands proof of a negative in a context where there is no evidence for the positive. "It"s up to you," he says, "to prove that the fourth moon of Jupiter did not cause your sex life and that it was not a result of your previous incarnation as the Pharaoh of Egypt." Third, the agnostic says, "Maybe these things will one day be proved." In other words, he asserts possibilities or hypotheses with no jot of evidential basis.

The agnostic miscalculates. He thinks he is avoiding any position that will antagonize anybody. In fact, he is taking a position which is much more irrational than that of a man who takes a definite but mistaken stand on a given issue, because the agnostic treats arbitrary claims as meriting cognitive consideration and epistemological respect. He treats the arbitrary as on a par with the rational and evidentially supported. So he is the ultimate epistemological egalitarian: he equates the groundless and the proved. As such, he is an epistemological destroyer. The agnostic thinks that he is not taking any stand at all and therefore that he is safe, secure, invulnerable to attack. The fact is that his view is one of the falsest"and most cowardly"stands there can be."

- Leonard Peikoff-