Total Posts:30|Showing Posts:1-30
Jump to topic:

WLC's refusal to debate JWL

DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,517
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 1:57:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
It's mentioned here and there, naturally, that Richard Dawkins absolutely refuses to debate William Lane Craig. Whatever his true reasons are, it's usually pointed out that it must be because he's afraid of losing.*

But what do you all think of William Lane Craig's adamant refusal to debate his former student, John W. Loftus?

"When I was a student of his he told his class something I thought was odd at the time. This was back in 1985 at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He said "the person I fear debating the most is a former student of mine." Keep in mind that Dr. Craig had only been teaching a few years before this to actually know of any student who might want to debate him. But that's what he said."

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com...

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com...

*While I'm not sure whether this accusation is accurate or not, I do believe WLC would undoubtedly be the victor of such a debate.
annanicole
Posts: 20,739
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 2:29:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Is he not most likely referring to "any former student" rather than one or two specific students? Is not his statement a generality?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,517
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 2:37:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 2:29:07 AM, annanicole wrote:
Is he not most likely referring to "any former student" rather than one or two specific students? Is not his statement a generality?

Obviously, in the example I quoted, it was a generalized statement (at the time, John was still a student in Craig's class and had no intentions of debating him). But now, years later, that is still one of the reasons he gives for why he won't debate him. Follow the links... read the links...
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 5:53:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
We can not know the outcome of a debate that never took place. so what is the point to speculate about something that'll naver happen anyways?
DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,517
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 6:36:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 5:53:32 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
We can not know the outcome of a debate that never took place. so what is the point to speculate about something that'll naver happen anyways?

Do you purposely always miss the point? I don't want to speculate who would win a debate between JWL and WLC; I want to hear your opinions on the fact that WLC has decided he never wants such a debate to take place.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 6:51:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Did WLC confirm he never will debate JWL ?

If not we can't judge, but if he did then it could be because he knows his student knows his flaws and doesn't want to risk to debate him, or it could be that he knows his student reasoning does not make a sense to him anyways and they can't have a beneficial debate.
DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,517
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 7:00:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 6:51:14 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
Did WLC confirm he never will debate JWL ?

Yes.

If not we can't judge, but if he did then it could be because he knows his student knows his flaws and doesn't want to risk to debate him,

Seems likely.

or it could be that he knows his student reasoning does not make a sense to him anyways and they can't have a beneficial debate.

JWL is unquestionably far more knowledgable in this particular field than, say, Richard Dawkins is, yet WLC wanted to debate him.
annanicole
Posts: 20,739
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 7:17:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 2:37:31 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
At 4/24/2013 2:29:07 AM, annanicole wrote:
Is he not most likely referring to "any former student" rather than one or two specific students? Is not his statement a generality?

Obviously, in the example I quoted, it was a generalized statement (at the time, John was still a student in Craig's class and had no intentions of debating him). But now, years later, that is still one of the reasons he gives for why he won't debate him. Follow the links... read the links...

I know nothing about either of them - zilch. Never read a word that either of them wrote. But I know this much: unless a disputant is of a low caliber or represents no one (has no following), then a constant refusal can only mean one thing. Lack of interested observers would be another. Obviously that is not the case.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
unitedandy
Posts: 1,174
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 7:48:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 1:57:20 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
It's mentioned here and there, naturally, that Richard Dawkins absolutely refuses to debate William Lane Craig. Whatever his true reasons are, it's usually pointed out that it must be because he's afraid of losing.*

But what do you all think of William Lane Craig's adamant refusal to debate his former student, John W. Loftus?

"When I was a student of his he told his class something I thought was odd at the time. This was back in 1985 at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He said "the person I fear debating the most is a former student of mine." Keep in mind that Dr. Craig had only been teaching a few years before this to actually know of any student who might want to debate him. But that's what he said."

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com...

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com...

*While I'm not sure whether this accusation is accurate or not, I do believe WLC would undoubtedly be the victor of such a debate.

I pretty much share your opinion. Having seen Loftus debate, he's certainly no match for Craig in terms of organisation, speaking or just general debating skill. The chasm in this alone would make me think it would be very one-sided. There's no question in my mind Craig would win.

Having said that, it is surprising that he seems reluctant to debate certain people. Doug Kruguer is another one who has been wanting to debate Craig for years. As you say, this, in the context of the Dawkins situation, seems hypocritical.
DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,517
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 8:13:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 7:48:08 AM, unitedandy wrote:
At 4/24/2013 1:57:20 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
It's mentioned here and there, naturally, that Richard Dawkins absolutely refuses to debate William Lane Craig. Whatever his true reasons are, it's usually pointed out that it must be because he's afraid of losing.*

But what do you all think of William Lane Craig's adamant refusal to debate his former student, John W. Loftus?

"When I was a student of his he told his class something I thought was odd at the time. This was back in 1985 at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He said "the person I fear debating the most is a former student of mine." Keep in mind that Dr. Craig had only been teaching a few years before this to actually know of any student who might want to debate him. But that's what he said."

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com...

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com...

*While I'm not sure whether this accusation is accurate or not, I do believe WLC would undoubtedly be the victor of such a debate.

I pretty much share your opinion. Having seen Loftus debate, he's certainly no match for Craig in terms of organisation, speaking or just general debating skill. The chasm in this alone would make me think it would be very one-sided. There's no question in my mind Craig would win.

I was referring to a debate between WLC and Richard Dawkins when I said WLC would undoubtedly win. I have no opinion on who I think would win, WLC or Loftus.
SovereignDream
Posts: 1,119
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 10:01:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 1:57:20 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
It's mentioned here and there, naturally, that Richard Dawkins absolutely refuses to debate William Lane Craig. Whatever his true reasons are, it's usually pointed out that it must be because he's afraid of losing.*

But what do you all think of William Lane Craig's adamant refusal to debate his former student, John W. Loftus?

"When I was a student of his he told his class something I thought was odd at the time. This was back in 1985 at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He said "the person I fear debating the most is a former student of mine." Keep in mind that Dr. Craig had only been teaching a few years before this to actually know of any student who might want to debate him. But that's what he said."

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com...

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com...

*While I'm not sure whether this accusation is accurate or not, I do believe WLC would undoubtedly be the victor of such a debate.

I think the reason WLC won't debate Loftus is, really, either because of the way Loftus seems to carry himself (i.e. from what I've seen, he doesn't seem like the kindest person you'd like to have a cup of coffee with and discuss philosophical matters), or simply because Craig would see it as a waste of time. Loftus, after all, (from what I understand) didn't apostatize because of any deep-seated, intellectual epiphany but rather for emotional reasons that involve his getting caught with pornographic material and the like.
1Devilsadvocate
Posts: 1,518
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 3:37:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
a) He doesn't have a PhD.

b) For some reason teachers generally don't debate former students. (It's not just WLC)
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
unitedandy
Posts: 1,174
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 4:01:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 8:13:13 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
At 4/24/2013 7:48:08 AM, unitedandy wrote:
At 4/24/2013 1:57:20 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
It's mentioned here and there, naturally, that Richard Dawkins absolutely refuses to debate William Lane Craig. Whatever his true reasons are, it's usually pointed out that it must be because he's afraid of losing.*

But what do you all think of William Lane Craig's adamant refusal to debate his former student, John W. Loftus?

"When I was a student of his he told his class something I thought was odd at the time. This was back in 1985 at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He said "the person I fear debating the most is a former student of mine." Keep in mind that Dr. Craig had only been teaching a few years before this to actually know of any student who might want to debate him. But that's what he said."

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com...

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com...

*While I'm not sure whether this accusation is accurate or not, I do believe WLC would undoubtedly be the victor of such a debate.

I pretty much share your opinion. Having seen Loftus debate, he's certainly no match for Craig in terms of organisation, speaking or just general debating skill. The chasm in this alone would make me think it would be very one-sided. There's no question in my mind Craig would win.

I was referring to a debate between WLC and Richard Dawkins when I said WLC would undoubtedly win. I have no opinion on who I think would win, WLC or Loftus.

My mistake. Just looking at some of JL past debates, he just doesn't seem disciplined enough to stick to immediately relevant points. At least from what I've seen.
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 4:10:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
How does this show that WLC refuses to debate JWL? ... Again, WLC simply accepts invites to debate events if his schedule and health allows. He doesn't set any of them up, campus clubs and fundraisers do. When has there ever been an event to set things up between these guys?
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/25/2013 11:23:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 1:57:20 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
It's mentioned here and there, naturally, that Richard Dawkins absolutely refuses to debate William Lane Craig. Whatever his true reasons are, it's usually pointed out that it must be because he's afraid of losing.*

But what do you all think of William Lane Craig's adamant refusal to debate his former student, John W. Loftus?

"When I was a student of his he told his class something I thought was odd at the time. This was back in 1985 at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He said "the person I fear debating the most is a former student of mine." Keep in mind that Dr. Craig had only been teaching a few years before this to actually know of any student who might want to debate him. But that's what he said."

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com...

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com...

*While I'm not sure whether this accusation is accurate or not, I do believe WLC would undoubtedly be the victor of such a debate.

I am very familiar with John Loftus. William Lane Craig would seriously wipe the floor with him (he's beaten many much more intelligent atheists in debate). Loftus is just an internet atheist who's too big for his britches. It's dubious whether or not Craig ever made that claim (Loftus is certainly no stranger to dishonesty or taking quotes out of context), but even if he did, Loftus certainly wouldn't be the one Craig was referring to.
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/25/2013 11:56:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
You know, I think some of the objections to the KCA on DDO are of superior quality to the ones WLC has dealt with in his debates. While I still think (most) of those objections are flawed, I'd like to see a debate where WLC actually contends with something beyond "herr derr quantum mechanics," and I'm pretty sure a former student will do his research so as to not be embarrassed. Of course, I thought the other debaters would, too.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Magic8000
Posts: 975
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2013 10:18:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
He also wont debate Jeffery Jay Lowder and Matt Dillahunty
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
Magic8000
Posts: 975
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2013 10:21:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 10:01:38 AM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 4/24/2013 1:57:20 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
It's mentioned here and there, naturally, that Richard Dawkins absolutely refuses to debate William Lane Craig. Whatever his true reasons are, it's usually pointed out that it must be because he's afraid of losing.*

But what do you all think of William Lane Craig's adamant refusal to debate his former student, John W. Loftus?

"When I was a student of his he told his class something I thought was odd at the time. This was back in 1985 at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He said "the person I fear debating the most is a former student of mine." Keep in mind that Dr. Craig had only been teaching a few years before this to actually know of any student who might want to debate him. But that's what he said."

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com...

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com...

*While I'm not sure whether this accusation is accurate or not, I do believe WLC would undoubtedly be the victor of such a debate.

I think the reason WLC won't debate Loftus is, really, either because of the way Loftus seems to carry himself (i.e. from what I've seen, he doesn't seem like the kindest person you'd like to have a cup of coffee with and discuss philosophical matters), or simply because Craig would see it as a waste of time. Loftus, after all, (from what I understand) didn't apostatize because of any deep-seated, intellectual epiphany but rather for emotional reasons that involve his getting caught with pornographic material and the like.

Those are basically the same reasons Dawkins gives for refusing to debate WLC.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,075
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2013 10:22:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Big deal, he wouldn't debate me either.

But that's probably for different reasons all together =p
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
Magic8000
Posts: 975
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2013 10:25:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 10:22:03 AM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
Big deal, he wouldn't debate me either.

But that's probably for different reasons all together =p

Every nonbeliever on here should challenge him!
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
SovereignDream
Posts: 1,119
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2013 11:00:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 10:21:37 AM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 4/24/2013 10:01:38 AM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 4/24/2013 1:57:20 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
It's mentioned here and there, naturally, that Richard Dawkins absolutely refuses to debate William Lane Craig. Whatever his true reasons are, it's usually pointed out that it must be because he's afraid of losing.*

But what do you all think of William Lane Craig's adamant refusal to debate his former student, John W. Loftus?

"When I was a student of his he told his class something I thought was odd at the time. This was back in 1985 at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He said "the person I fear debating the most is a former student of mine." Keep in mind that Dr. Craig had only been teaching a few years before this to actually know of any student who might want to debate him. But that's what he said."

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com...

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com...

*While I'm not sure whether this accusation is accurate or not, I do believe WLC would undoubtedly be the victor of such a debate.

I think the reason WLC won't debate Loftus is, really, either because of the way Loftus seems to carry himself (i.e. from what I've seen, he doesn't seem like the kindest person you'd like to have a cup of coffee with and discuss philosophical matters), or simply because Craig would see it as a waste of time. Loftus, after all, (from what I understand) didn't apostatize because of any deep-seated, intellectual epiphany but rather for emotional reasons that involve his getting caught with pornographic material and the like.

Those are basically the same reasons Dawkins gives for refusing to debate WLC.

Then Dawkins is either a fool or a liar (maybe both).
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,803
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2013 11:28:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 11:18:28 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Yeah, and WLC won't debate Matt Dillahunty when he's obviously a formidable opponent and familiar with the arguments.

I don't care if WLC has a 'rule.' It's ultimately his rule, and he is responsible for any stupid decisions derived from said rule.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2013 11:38:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 11:00:27 AM, SovereignDream wrote:


Those are basically the same reasons Dawkins gives for refusing to debate WLC.

Then Dawkins is either a fool or a liar (maybe both).

Fool or liar? Really? Biased much?
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
SovereignDream
Posts: 1,119
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2013 6:44:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 11:18:28 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Yeah, and WLC won't debate Matt Dillahunty when he's obviously a formidable opponent and familiar with the arguments.

Matt Dillahunty? Formidable? Now, now...
SovereignDream
Posts: 1,119
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2013 6:50:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 11:38:02 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 4/26/2013 11:00:27 AM, SovereignDream wrote:


Those are basically the same reasons Dawkins gives for refusing to debate WLC.

Then Dawkins is either a fool or a liar (maybe both).

Fool or liar? Really? Biased much?

I don't see how I'm being "biased":

1.) One is clearly capable of engaging in serious, philosophical conversation with William Lane Craig (e.g. any and all of his debates).

2.) WLC didn't obviously has not (and will not) apostatize, much less because of any emotional, non-intellectual reason (e.g. getting caught with pornographic material while aspiring to be a priest, etc.).

So clearly, if the allegation that Dawkins is giving these two reasons for not debating WLC, then one can deduce either that (a) Dawkins is clueless about WLC and/or being disingenuous about him by making up reasons to not debate him, or (b) these are not at all the same reasons Dawkins gives for refusing to debate WLC.
SovereignDream
Posts: 1,119
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2013 6:51:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 6:50:37 PM, SovereignDream wrote:
2.) WLC obviously has not (and will not) apostatize, much less because of any emotional, non-intellectual reason (e.g. getting caught with pornographic material while aspiring to be a priest, etc.).
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2013 6:57:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 6:50:37 PM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 4/26/2013 11:38:02 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 4/26/2013 11:00:27 AM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 4/24/2013 1:57:20 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
I think the reason WLC won't debate Loftus is, really, either because of the way Loftus seems to carry himself (i.e. from what I've seen, he doesn't seem like the kindest person you'd like to have a cup of coffee with and discuss philosophical matters), or simply because Craig would see it as a waste of time. Loftus, after all, (from what I understand) didn't apostatize because of any deep-seated, intellectual epiphany but rather for emotional reasons that involve his getting caught with pornographic material and the like.

Those are basically the same reasons Dawkins gives for refusing to debate WLC.

Those are basically the same reasons Dawkins gives for refusing to debate WLC.

Then Dawkins is either a fool or a liar (maybe both).

Fool or liar? Really? Biased much?

I don't see how I'm being "biased":

1.) One is clearly capable of engaging in serious, philosophical conversation with William Lane Craig (e.g. any and all of his debates).

2.) WLC didn't obviously has not (and will not) apostatize, much less because of any emotional, non-intellectual reason (e.g. getting caught with pornographic material while aspiring to be a priest, etc.).

So clearly, if the allegation that Dawkins is giving these two reasons for not debating WLC, then one can deduce either that (a) Dawkins is clueless about WLC and/or being disingenuous about him by making up reasons to not debate him, or (b) these are not at all the same reasons Dawkins gives for refusing to debate WLC.

I suppose I will charitably question whether you simply misread the statement before you made your own, as opposed to whether you purposefully misconstrued:

To repeat:

I think the reason WLC won't debate Loftus is, really, either because of the way Loftus seems to carry himself (i.e. from what I've seen, he doesn't seem like the kindest person you'd like to have a cup of coffee with and discuss philosophical matters), or simply because Craig would see it as a waste of time.

The other things listed were reasons WHY Loftus might be a waste of time, but not reasons why WLC wasn't debating him. The reasons here are the given reasons WLC might have for not debating Loftus are the same reasons why Dawkins states he doesn't want to debate WLC (well, similar enough to be called the same).

I don't think anyone believes that WLC apostasized because of pornography, and I think you know that Dawkins never made that claim. So I'm QUITE puzzled how you reached your interpretation.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
philochristos
Posts: 2,670
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2013 7:28:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If Loftus wants to debate Craig, and Craig wants to debate Dawkins, it seems like a deal could be worked out. Maybe Loftus could get Dawkins to agree to debate Craig on the condition that Craig agrees to debate Loftus. If Craig really wants to debate Dawkins, maybe he'd be willing to debate Loftus as a means to that end. The only problem is that I don't see any incentive for Dawkins to agree to debate Craig except as a favor to Loftus. Dawkins wouldn't get much out of it.

Craig, Dawkins, Loftus, and sometimes White http://philochristos.blogspot.com...
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle