Total Posts:393|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

The Purpose of "God" ...

PureX
Posts: 1,525
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 9:54:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think that perhaps 'atheists' don't understand the purpose of belief in the "God ideal" in the lives of theists. And the reason I think so is that they keep asking theists the wrong questions regarding why they choose to believe in "God".

It seems to me that nearly every atheist who 'debates' the idea of God does so on the basis of said "God" being "real" or not, as the atheist's themselves understand reality (which they refer to as 'objective' reality). While this question of God's objective realism isn't much of an issue for most theists, because the external reality of the god-ideal isn't why theists choose to believe in God. The reason they choose to believe in the god-ideal is because of it their God's 'internal reality'. It's because of the way that belief functions and effects them internally, as human beings living and experiencing their lives.

Atheists don't consider this aspect of theism, much, because they can't experience it for themselves. So naturally, they tend to see theism as being only a belief in an idea that has little or no objective (external) verification or merit. And because they have no subjective experience of theism's internal voracity and value, they can't understand why theists bother to believe at all. And when they ask theists for their reasons, they expect "real objective" reasons, not personal subjective experiences that they can't appreciate because they don't experience for themselves.

It's sort of like a peach asking an apple to justify it's peach-ness. It can't really do so because it's not a peach.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 10:13:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Makes a sense to me, and makes a sense with the fact that God guides whom he wills to his path or that god doesn't guide the arogants..
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 10:37:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 9:54:37 AM, PureX wrote:
I think that perhaps 'atheists' don't understand the purpose of belief in the "God ideal" in the lives of theists. And the reason I think so is that they keep asking theists the wrong questions regarding why they choose to believe in "God".

It seems to me that nearly every atheist who 'debates' the idea of God does so on the basis of said "God" being "real" or not, as the atheist's themselves understand reality (which they refer to as 'objective' reality). While this question of God's objective realism isn't much of an issue for most theists, because the external reality of the god-ideal isn't why theists choose to believe in God. The reason they choose to believe in the god-ideal is because of it their God's 'internal reality'. It's because of the way that belief functions and effects them internally, as human beings living and experiencing their lives.

Atheists don't consider this aspect of theism, much, because they can't experience it for themselves. So naturally, they tend to see theism as being only a belief in an idea that has little or no objective (external) verification or merit. And because they have no subjective experience of theism's internal voracity and value, they can't understand why theists bother to believe at all. And when they ask theists for their reasons, they expect "real objective" reasons, not personal subjective experiences that they can't appreciate because they don't experience for themselves.

It's sort of like a peach asking an apple to justify it's peach-ness. It can't really do so because it's not a peach.

Nice. But it's complete and utter bullsh1t. If all that matters is how god affects theist internally, then we wouldn't have backward-thinking, ignorant bigots trying to push laws, shape the government, and oppress people based upon what they believe gets God's panties in a twist (when it is really just a cover for their own prejudices).

We don't care about internal, subjective components to theism because, well, frankly, we're ok with that. If you get off on believing a bearded sky fairy is silently observing everyone, everywhere, at all times, waiting to judge you the second you die for the presence or absence of a trivial belief, then go ahead. That isn't the problem.

The problem is when these take those nonsensical notions and try and force them on other people and try and shape the world and its inhabitants to conform to a specific way of thinking through any means necessary.

The proof of this is evident in the religions atheists choose to combat. If atheists can't tolerate even the most basic god-concept, the you would see arguments across the board in equal numbers. Or, at least, in equal proportion to their adherents world-wide. You don't.

What you see is atheists combating religion that is in a position to negatively affect them, which is usually the religion that is most prominent where they live. Given that most members here live in "Western" countries and cultures where Christianity is predominant, you see mostly anti-Christian arguments.

Now, some may call this selfish but, in the end, we don't give a flying fvck what you choose to believe, if you also choose to keep it to yourself. But you have to be blind to history if you think that's what theists have been doing for thousands of years or even today.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 11:26:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 9:54:37 AM, PureX wrote:
I think that perhaps 'atheists' don't understand the purpose of belief in the "God ideal" in the lives of theists. And the reason I think so is that they keep asking theists the wrong questions regarding why they choose to believe in "God".

It seems to me that nearly every atheist who 'debates' the idea of God does so on the basis of said "God" being "real" or not, as the atheist's themselves understand reality (which they refer to as 'objective' reality). While this question of God's objective realism isn't much of an issue for most theists, because the external reality of the god-ideal isn't why theists choose to believe in God. The reason they choose to believe in the god-ideal is because of it their God's 'internal reality'. It's because of the way that belief functions and effects them internally, as human beings living and experiencing their lives.

Atheists don't consider this aspect of theism, much, because they can't experience it for themselves. So naturally, they tend to see theism as being only a belief in an idea that has little or no objective (external) verification or merit. And because they have no subjective experience of theism's internal voracity and value, they can't understand why theists bother to believe at all. And when they ask theists for their reasons, they expect "real objective" reasons, not personal subjective experiences that they can't appreciate because they don't experience for themselves.

It's sort of like a peach asking an apple to justify it's peach-ness. It can't really do so because it's not a peach.

There are people who "experience" alien abduction. Unless your experience is the result of an objective external reality, then what you experience doesn't mean anything possible pertaining to God's existence, because you cannot show it is a genuine experience.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 11:33:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 11:30:51 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
we're not talking of a random psychological sickness, but most humans beliefs!

Who says they are different?
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 11:34:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 11:30:51 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
we're not talking of a random psychological sickness, but most humans beliefs!

And besides a fallacious appeal to popularity, what's the inherent difference?
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
PureX
Posts: 1,525
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 11:57:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 10:37:48 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 4/24/2013 9:54:37 AM, PureX wrote:

It's sort of like a peach asking an apple to justify it's peach-ness. It can't really do so because it's not a peach.

Nice. But it's complete and utter bullsh1t. If all that matters is how god affects theist internally, then we wouldn't have backward-thinking, ignorant bigots trying to push laws, shape the government, and oppress people based upon what they believe gets God's panties in a twist (when it is really just a cover for their own prejudices).

We don't care about internal, subjective components to theism because, well, frankly, we're ok with that. If you get off on believing a bearded sky fairy is silently observing everyone, everywhere, at all times, waiting to judge you the second you die for the presence or absence of a trivial belief, then go ahead. That isn't the problem.

The problem is when these take those nonsensical notions and try and force them on other people and try and shape the world and its inhabitants to conform to a specific way of thinking through any means necessary.

This is a great example of how non-theists completely misunderstand the internal dynamics of theism; as the assumption, here, is that how this 'horrible religious oppressor' conceives of and experiences "God" in his life has no bearing on the way he behaves toward others. When in fact, how the theist chooses to conceptualize his "God" has everything to do with how he behaves toward others ...and LIKEWISE. Just as the non-theist's own conceptualizations of meaning and existence effect how he views and behaves toward others.

The subjective experience of BOTH theism and atheism effect the way their respective adherents behave. This is because our conception of an experience and the experience itself are basically the same phenomena.

Now, some may call this selfish but, in the end, we don't give a flying fvck what you choose to believe, if you also choose to keep it to yourself. But you have to be blind to history if you think that's what theists have been doing for thousands of years or even today.

And that's why you're bound to be hopelessly ineffective at countering the negative effects of theism that you so strongly want to counter.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 12:03:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 11:57:07 AM, PureX wrote:
At 4/24/2013 10:37:48 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 4/24/2013 9:54:37 AM, PureX wrote:

It's sort of like a peach asking an apple to justify it's peach-ness. It can't really do so because it's not a peach.

Nice. But it's complete and utter bullsh1t. If all that matters is how god affects theist internally, then we wouldn't have backward-thinking, ignorant bigots trying to push laws, shape the government, and oppress people based upon what they believe gets God's panties in a twist (when it is really just a cover for their own prejudices).

We don't care about internal, subjective components to theism because, well, frankly, we're ok with that. If you get off on believing a bearded sky fairy is silently observing everyone, everywhere, at all times, waiting to judge you the second you die for the presence or absence of a trivial belief, then go ahead. That isn't the problem.

The problem is when these take those nonsensical notions and try and force them on other people and try and shape the world and its inhabitants to conform to a specific way of thinking through any means necessary.

This is a great example of how non-theists completely misunderstand the internal dynamics of theism; as the assumption, here, is that how this 'horrible religious oppressor' conceives of and experiences "God" in his life has no bearing on the way he behaves toward others. When in fact, how the theist chooses to conceptualize his "God" has everything to do with how he behaves toward others ...and LIKEWISE. Just as the non-theist's own conceptualizations of meaning and existence effect how he views and behaves toward others.

I make no assumption as to how the theist internally conceives of and experiences "God" and I don't care what part of that influences (or not) the way he behaves toward others. All that matters to me is how he or she actually behaves towards others. Since the theist has chosen to root his or her decision in her theism, then I am going to attack that root.

This is not my decision. I not making assumptions here, I'm simply taking theists at their word regarding their own motivations. At no point have I contradicted or argued against what you said here. I'm simply noting it as irrelevant to the issues that matter to atheists, which you've wholly ignored.


The subjective experience of BOTH theism and atheism effect the way their respective adherents behave. This is because our conception of an experience and the experience itself are basically the same phenomena.

Ok. So? I'm not arguing this.


Now, some may call this selfish but, in the end, we don't give a flying fvck what you choose to believe, if you also choose to keep it to yourself. But you have to be blind to history if you think that's what theists have been doing for thousands of years or even today.

And that's why you're bound to be hopelessly ineffective at countering the negative effects of theism that you so strongly want to counter.

The shifting world-wide demographics would seem to be in my favor.
Radar
Posts: 424
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 12:16:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Interesting, and of course I agree with every word. If you ever write a book please let me know.

Even draftrman was kind enough to (inadvertently, I'm sure) provide strong evidence that what you said is true. Since atheists "don't care about internal, subjective components to theism," how can they not ask the wrong questions? How can they argue in a way that is meaningful to a theist?

Theists use ideas to interpret, describe and assign cause to a subjective inner experience that is, to them, of supreme value to himself and for all mankind. Atheists/agnostics (I put them together because they are functionally identical) give little attention to their inner experience because to them everything that is real, everything that really matters, is "out there" in the so-called objective world. But if objective reality were the the only reality that really mattered to them, wouldn't there be more agreement, more uniformity of thought, between atheists themselves?
Radar
Posts: 424
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 12:20:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 12:03:51 PM, drafterman wrote:

The shifting world-wide demographics would seem to be in my favor.

Well, if you think what's happening in the world is a shift in your favor, I don't know what to say.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 12:20:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 9:54:37 AM, PureX wrote:
I think that perhaps 'atheists' don't understand the purpose of belief in the "God ideal" in the lives of theists. And the reason I think so is that they keep asking theists the wrong questions regarding why they choose to believe in "God".

It seems to me that nearly every atheist who 'debates' the idea of God does so on the basis of said "God" being "real" or not, as the atheist's themselves understand reality (which they refer to as 'objective' reality). While this question of God's objective realism isn't much of an issue for most theists, because the external reality of the god-ideal isn't why theists choose to believe in God. The reason they choose to believe in the god-ideal is because of it their God's 'internal reality'. It's because of the way that belief functions and effects them internally, as human beings living and experiencing their lives.

Then they should keep it an internal reality instead of making actions based on it in the external reality.


Atheists don't consider this aspect of theism, much, because they can't experience it for themselves. So naturally, they tend to see theism as being only a belief in an idea that has little or no objective (external) verification or merit. And because they have no subjective experience of theism's internal voracity and value, they can't understand why theists bother to believe at all. And when they ask theists for their reasons, they expect "real objective" reasons, not personal subjective experiences that they can't appreciate because they don't experience for themselves.

I think I know quite a few reasons why people believe.


It's sort of like a peach asking an apple to justify it's peach-ness. It can't really do so because it's not a peach.

Is that really what it's like?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 12:23:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 12:16:04 PM, Radar wrote:
Interesting, and of course I agree with every word. If you ever write a book please let me know.

Even draftrman was kind enough to (inadvertently, I'm sure) provide strong evidence that what you said is true. Since atheists "don't care about internal, subjective components to theism," how can they not ask the wrong questions? How can they argue in a way that is meaningful to a theist?

Theists use ideas to interpret, describe and assign cause to a subjective inner experience that is, to them, of supreme value to himself and for all mankind. Atheists/agnostics (I put them together because they are functionally identical) give little attention to their inner experience because to them everything that is real, everything that really matters, is "out there" in the so-called objective world. But if objective reality were the the only reality that really mattered to them, wouldn't there be more agreement, more uniformity of thought, between atheists themselves?

Obviously how we interpret things matters. We are a part of reality, though.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 12:24:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 12:20:38 PM, Radar wrote:
At 4/24/2013 12:03:51 PM, drafterman wrote:

The shifting world-wide demographics would seem to be in my favor.

Well, if you think what's happening in the world is a shift in your favor, I don't know what to say.

Because he's right?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
Radar
Posts: 424
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 12:32:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 11:26:00 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

There are people who "experience" alien abduction. Unless your experience is the result of an objective external reality, then what you experience doesn't mean anything possible pertaining to God's existence, because you cannot show it is a genuine experience.

Prove to us that you you're not the one who's delusional. Maybe it happens to you all the time, but the memory-wipes are more effective on you. "It is no argument to say that most men see the world in much the same way, and that this "way" is the true standard of reality: though for practical purposes we have agreed that sanity consists in sharing the hallucinations of our neighbours." (E. Underhill)
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 12:35:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 12:32:35 PM, Radar wrote:
At 4/24/2013 11:26:00 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

There are people who "experience" alien abduction. Unless your experience is the result of an objective external reality, then what you experience doesn't mean anything possible pertaining to God's existence, because you cannot show it is a genuine experience.

Prove to us that you you're not the one who's delusional. Maybe it happens to you all the time, but the memory-wipes are more effective on you. "It is no argument to say that most men see the world in much the same way, and that this "way" is the true standard of reality: though for practical purposes we have agreed that sanity consists in sharing the hallucinations of our neighbours." (E. Underhill)

It's more probable that aliens don't abduct people than they do. The huge cover-up which would be necessary, and all the assumptions along with it make it the less likely path. Provide evidence for it and then you can converse.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
Radar
Posts: 424
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 12:38:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 12:23:46 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:

Obviously how we interpret things matters. We are a part of reality, though.

And where you focus your attention doesn't matter? Doesn't affect your interpretation?
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 12:39:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 12:20:38 PM, Radar wrote:
At 4/24/2013 12:03:51 PM, drafterman wrote:

The shifting world-wide demographics would seem to be in my favor.

Well, if you think what's happening in the world is a shift in your favor, I don't know what to say.

Yes, when confronted with a position they disagree with, but have no refutation, people often don't know what to say.
Radar
Posts: 424
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 12:39:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 12:35:54 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/24/2013 12:32:35 PM, Radar wrote:
At 4/24/2013 11:26:00 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

There are people who "experience" alien abduction. Unless your experience is the result of an objective external reality, then what you experience doesn't mean anything possible pertaining to God's existence, because you cannot show it is a genuine experience.

Prove to us that you you're not the one who's delusional. Maybe it happens to you all the time, but the memory-wipes are more effective on you. "It is no argument to say that most men see the world in much the same way, and that this "way" is the true standard of reality: though for practical purposes we have agreed that sanity consists in sharing the hallucinations of our neighbours." (E. Underhill)

It's more probable that aliens don't abduct people than they do. The huge cover-up which would be necessary, and all the assumptions along with it make it the less likely path. Provide evidence for it and then you can converse.

Bandwagon fallacy.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 12:42:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 12:16:04 PM, Radar wrote:
Interesting, and of course I agree with every word. If you ever write a book please let me know.

Even draftrman was kind enough to (inadvertently, I'm sure) provide strong evidence that what you said is true. Since atheists "don't care about internal, subjective components to theism," how can they not ask the wrong questions? How can they argue in a way that is meaningful to a theist?

Theists use ideas to interpret, describe and assign cause to a subjective inner experience that is, to them, of supreme value to himself and for all mankind. Atheists/agnostics (I put them together because they are functionally identical) give little attention to their inner experience because to them everything that is real, everything that really matters, is "out there" in the so-called objective world. But if objective reality were the the only reality that really mattered to them, wouldn't there be more agreement, more uniformity of thought, between atheists themselves?

Uh... what? Nothing about atheism entails rejecting subjective components to reality. All I've noted is, whatever part of theism is internal and subjective to the theism, this doesn't stop them from trying to enforce that on others, thereby trying to make it "out there" and "objective." I put these words in quotes because of the way they are being abused in this faux philosophical context.

That you claim it is internal doesn't put it out of bounds of scrutiny when you try and use it to oppress other people. It's as simple as that.
Radar
Posts: 424
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 12:46:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Ever notice that when the topic of discussion is about the reality and affect of subjective experience atheists/agnostics try to make it about the objective world? Is their inner life so meaningless to them that they can't bear talking about it?
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 12:48:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 12:46:55 PM, Radar wrote:
Ever notice that when the topic of discussion is about the reality and affect of subjective experience atheists/agnostics try to make it about the objective world? Is their inner life so meaningless to them that they can't bear talking about it?

No, it's because subjective experience proves nothing. Or, I guess, to you, can prove literally anything.

Unicorns don't exist "Out there", but I subjectively experience them, therefore you're wrong to say they don't exist! GOSH.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 12:49:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 12:39:26 PM, Radar wrote:
At 4/24/2013 12:35:54 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/24/2013 12:32:35 PM, Radar wrote:
At 4/24/2013 11:26:00 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

There are people who "experience" alien abduction. Unless your experience is the result of an objective external reality, then what you experience doesn't mean anything possible pertaining to God's existence, because you cannot show it is a genuine experience.

Prove to us that you you're not the one who's delusional. Maybe it happens to you all the time, but the memory-wipes are more effective on you. "It is no argument to say that most men see the world in much the same way, and that this "way" is the true standard of reality: though for practical purposes we have agreed that sanity consists in sharing the hallucinations of our neighbours." (E. Underhill)

It's more probable that aliens don't abduct people than they do. The huge cover-up which would be necessary, and all the assumptions along with it make it the less likely path. Provide evidence for it and then you can converse.

Bandwagon fallacy.

I'm not saying more people believe it's stupid therefore it's incorrect. I'm saying the difficultly of the whole situation to orchestrate means that it would be less likely to be true that just the situation not happening at all. There is very little evidence for it, and all the circumstances it creates makes it less and less likely to be happening. Since it is unlikely, it is fair to assume it is untrue until new evidence comes to light.

Are you going to provide this evidence?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 12:50:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 12:46:55 PM, Radar wrote:
Ever notice that when the topic of discussion is about the reality and affect of subjective experience atheists/agnostics try to make it about the objective world? Is their inner life so meaningless to them that they can't bear talking about it?

My inner life is extremely meaningful to me. This is why I don't want it corrupted by the outside (from my POV) influence of theism. If you theists would actually take your own "subjective" claptrap seriously and actually keep your theism to yourself, the world (objective or otherwise) would be a better place.

Neither you nor the OP has yet to address this contradiction. If what matters is subjective and internal, then why do you theists keep putting it out there?
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 12:50:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 12:46:55 PM, Radar wrote:
Ever notice that when the topic of discussion is about the reality and affect of subjective experience atheists/agnostics try to make it about the objective world? Is their inner life so meaningless to them that they can't bear talking about it?

Don't discuss the subjective world like you would the objective world then.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 12:53:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 12:46:55 PM, Radar wrote:
Ever notice that when the topic of discussion is about the reality and affect of subjective experience atheists/agnostics try to make it about the objective world? Is their inner life so meaningless to them that they can't bear talking about it?

The inner life has no bearing on whether a God actually exists. Either he exists externally and objectively, or he doesn't exist at all. Like Christopher Hitchens said, I have no doubt a God exists to theists. I believe he is absolutely real to the people who believe in him, just like alien abductions are absolutely real to the people who believe in them. Atheists/ agnostics already concede that a God is real subjectively to people, and that people genuinely believe he is actually there. This doesn't mean he is actually there, anymore than the fact that I concede alien abductions are real to the people who think they have gone through that, means that alien abductions actually happen.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 12:56:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 12:39:26 PM, Radar wrote:

Bandwagon fallacy.

First: No, that isn't the Bandwagon Fallacy.

Second: You're engaging in what I like to call the Solipsist's Fallacy, in that you're questioning ad absurdam everything presented to you, to then make a claim that, because all evidence must depend on some kind of assumption, "therefore X (a proposition which all the evidence is against) is true". A special class of the " argumentum ad ignorantiam" .

Are you really claiming it isn't more probable than not that people are not being abducted by aliens?
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
Radar
Posts: 424
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 1:05:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 12:50:38 PM, drafterman wrote:

My inner life is extremely meaningful to me. This is why I don't want it corrupted by the outside (from my POV) influence of theism. If you theists would actually take your own "subjective" claptrap seriously and actually keep your theism to yourself, the world (objective or otherwise) would be a better place.

Neither you nor the OP has yet to address this contradiction. If what matters is subjective and internal, then why do you theists keep putting it out there?

Its been addressed. You just haven't been paying attention.

If you inner life so meaningful to you, then feel free to interpret, describe and assign a cause to that inner experience. Tell us in terms of "as if" if you have to.
Radar
Posts: 424
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 1:09:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 12:53:33 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

The inner life has no bearing on whether a God actually exists. Either he exists externally and objectively, or he doesn't exist at all.

I'm beginning to wonder if atheists/agnostics have an attention deficit disorder. Did you even read the OP?
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/24/2013 1:15:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 1:09:43 PM, Radar wrote:
At 4/24/2013 12:53:33 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

The inner life has no bearing on whether a God actually exists. Either he exists externally and objectively, or he doesn't exist at all.

I'm beginning to wonder if atheists/agnostics have an attention deficit disorder. Did you even read the OP?

The meaningless tripe attempting to equate subjectivity with actual reality via a nonsense analogy? Yeah, we all read it.

Peaches exist, though. And a thing can be shown to be a peach through a fairly simple process.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!