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What if lots of people break a law?

mmhmm72222
Posts: 7
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4/24/2013 8:25:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I have a serious yet complex ethical concern with regards to a particular part of "Catholic Law". However, the concern is one that can be generalized to other faiths and even Criminal Law. What do you do if a law governing a population is being broken by a large percentage of the population? Let me jump right in. Statistical studies claim that many people masturbate, few catholics go to confession, and many catholics go to mass. However, the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" suggests that masturbation is generally a mortal sin and that one should not receive the Eucharist (Christ the bread of life) if they have not yet confessed all of their mortal sins. In other words, if you masturbate, then you have to go to confession before you may receive the Eucharist at mass. When I go to mass, it appears as if just about everyone receives the Eucharist. Either Catholics masturbate a lot less than the general population or catholics at large are breaking the rules. It appears to me that at least 25% of this population is breaking the rule. To me, it's a very serious concern to have a law which is broken regularly by a large percent of the population that it governs. Also, I believe that the rule is not only justifiable, but perhaps it should not be removed or ignored. Now to my questions: What do you do if a law governing a population is being broken by a large percentage of the population? Do you reform the law? Do you confront the population? Do you pretend like it's not happening? Do some people deserve to be exempt?

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Mike

http://www.sharingreligion.com...
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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4/24/2013 8:55:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Yeah, a lot of people do it; it's still not right. I don't mean to throw out a one-liner, but it's really not much more than that.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
medv4380
Posts: 200
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4/24/2013 9:36:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If a lot of people are murdering each other do you get rid of the laws about murdering? Or do you spend the money to put more cops on the street?

I'd say from your line of questioning you're attempting to go down a path to justify removing or modifying a law based on the past Prohibition of alcohol. You'd be misguided if that's the case. That kind of reform of the law is due to being enforceable or unenforceable. It's bad for a government to have unenforceable laws because it puts doubt into all laws. Can anyone say Gods laws are being enforced or unenforced? The enforcement of Gods laws comes after death during the judgment, depending on your faith of course. Even in Karma Reincarnation based religions your judgment for your misdeeds in this life do not happen while this life is still going, with exceptions.
mmhmm72222
Posts: 7
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4/24/2013 10:10:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Interesting. Thank you for your response. Well, I suspect that there is more that the population could do for laws with no enforcement during life. For example, no one is really going out and saying in front of people hey this is a really good law and I like it. Or, are they? Maybe I don't get out much. I think promoting a law is valuable. Maybe there are more things besides promoting that could lead a population to not breaking a law.
medv4380
Posts: 200
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4/24/2013 10:29:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Between the Bible, missionaries, priests, and the entire religious structure isn't all of that covered? For Catholics, in particular, I was under the impression that was what Catholic Guilt was all about. Most people are aware of the Catholic Churches stance on things of a sexual nature, and they disagree, or agree, and that's their free will at work. Proselytizing beyond what is already done would be unnecessary.
Sui_Generis
Posts: 493
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4/25/2013 12:23:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
If the law has an absolute basis (like law set by divine ordinance) then the law does not change.

If it set by divine principle (speed limits) I go by what I once read the libertarian party had to say on illegal immigration: "When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law." If the speed limit on a highway is 45, and everyone is going 65, it's like that the speed limit is too low.
"Mundus vult decipi--the world wants to be deceived. The truth is too complex and frightening; the taste for the truth is an acquired taste that few acquire."
-Martin Buber, I and Thou
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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4/25/2013 2:13:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I just broke a Catholic law a few seconds ago.
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Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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4/25/2013 2:14:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/25/2013 12:23:27 AM, Sui_Generis wrote:
If the law has an absolute basis (like law set by divine ordinance) then the law does not change.

If it set by divine principle (speed limits) I go by what I once read the libertarian party had to say on illegal immigration: "When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law." If the speed limit on a highway is 45, and everyone is going 65, it's like that the speed limit is too low.

I really like that quote.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
medv4380
Posts: 200
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4/25/2013 8:24:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/25/2013 12:23:27 AM, Sui_Generis wrote:
If the speed limit on a highway is 45, and everyone is going 65, it's like that the speed limit is too low.

Maybe it's that I've driven on mountain roads so I know that those speed limits arn't set for no good reason. If you see a sign for a 25mph turn on a road that is otherwise 55mph you better slow down. I don't care that some rally racer can take the turn at 55mph if they drift through the other lane. It's there for safety. Japan didn't say "Hay all these stupid kids who are racing down their mountain passes maybe we should make it legal." No they said these kids are being stupid lets make the road wavy so you can't build up speed at all.
PureX
Posts: 1,519
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4/25/2013 11:03:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 8:25:54 PM, mmhmm72222 wrote:
I have a serious yet complex ethical concern with regards to a particular part of "Catholic Law". However, the concern is one that can be generalized to other faiths and even Criminal Law. What do you do if a law governing a population is being broken by a large percentage of the population? Let me jump right in. Statistical studies claim that many people masturbate, few catholics go to confession, and many catholics go to mass. However, the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" suggests that masturbation is generally a mortal sin and that one should not receive the Eucharist (Christ the bread of life) if they have not yet confessed all of their mortal sins. In other words, if you masturbate, then you have to go to confession before you may receive the Eucharist at mass. When I go to mass, it appears as if just about everyone receives the Eucharist. Either Catholics masturbate a lot less than the general population or catholics at large are breaking the rules. It appears to me that at least 25% of this population is breaking the rule. To me, it's a very serious concern to have a law which is broken regularly by a large percent of the population that it governs. Also, I believe that the rule is not only justifiable, but perhaps it should not be removed or ignored. Now to my questions: What do you do if a law governing a population is being broken by a large percentage of the population? Do you reform the law? Do you confront the population? Do you pretend like it's not happening? Do some people deserve to be exempt?

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Mike

http://www.sharingreligion.com...

Religions that are bound by cultural "laws" are doomed to irrelevance over time.

Existence is expressed through change. Being is an event, not an object. Therefor our philosophies, theologies, and religions must be dynamic, not static, or they cannot reflect the truth of what is.
mmhmm72222
Posts: 7
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4/25/2013 6:57:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Interesting Medv. It sounds like you're saying that their is nothing more that should be done. I guess my complaint was that if we don't do anything then nothing will get better and I'd like for it to get better. But, you never know, maybe what were are doing right now is improving society at a slow rate. Well how about this then, what could be done. Not what should be done, but what are possible things that could be done and what are the possible results of them.
medv4380
Posts: 200
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4/25/2013 8:19:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well...
My personal objection to most things you can find in the Bible as Wrong or Immoral are typically bad documentation just telling you what is wrong or what you're supposed to do. Frequently it assumes the reader understands why you're supposed to do something.

I'll use our legal system laws as an example.

In the example of Murder the why is usually easy for the reader to grasp. No explanation is really needed to explain why we have laws against murder. People who need to be handheld on an explanation might be considered risky individuals. Like serial killers.

Speed limits is another story. Young and inexperienced drivers typically don't understand why a turn has a slower speed limit, or why the speed is slower in town vs on the highway. Sometimes you have to explain why a faster car is more dangerous to pedestrians, and why your car can go over the cliff if they take the turn too fast. Then again, sometimes you don't have to explain that.

In both cases if you understand why something is wrong it becomes easier to get people to follow the rules.

However, in the case of eating pork the Bible isn't exactly clear as to why it's wrong to eat pork. I can assume it became the rule because it was easier in the past to get sick eating it, and, for the most part, that issue has been resolved. But because the bible isn't clear on why eating pork is wrong it makes it more difficult to tell if eating pork is still wrong or not.

So given that, you could consider starting up a debate about why masturbation is wrong, and see if you can construct an argument based on that. Can you take the Golden Rule and apply it logically. If you can't then someone could argue that it might not be wrong anymore since the golden rule is considered by many as the basis for right and wrong without having to consult God directly because of something new the bible didn't address clearly enough, or at all.

If you're successful in constructing such an argument then you might be better off in a priesthood position since that's the position mostly responsible in informing people of right and wrong for god.
mmhmm72222
Posts: 7
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4/25/2013 9:46:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hi Medv,

I liked what you said. In particular, I liked, "If you understand why something is wrong it becomes easier to get people to follow the rules." Now, I have one possible thing to do when there is a law that is being broken by many. Develop an understanding of why the law is there and then explain it? But, who must explain it and where must they explain it? For a religious law it sounds like a priest at mass?
DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,517
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4/25/2013 9:52:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/25/2013 9:28:51 PM, mmhmm72222 wrote:
Hi AlbinoBunny,

I do not appreciate your response. LEAVE.

Thanks,
Mike

You tell him, guy-who-has-no-authority-or-seniority-whatsoever.
mmhmm72222
Posts: 7
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4/25/2013 10:13:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hi DakotaKrafick,

Based on what Medv just taught me, instead I should have said:

Hi AlbinoBunny and DakotaKrafick,

I don't appreciate your responses because I feel that you're mocking our discussion or at the very least, I struggle to converse with others in the present of disrespect. I would very much appreciate it if you respect these words and our discussion by providing words that do contain mockery or disrespect.

I hope that these words find you well.

Thanks,
Mike
medv4380
Posts: 200
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4/26/2013 8:30:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
A priest at mass would have the biggest impact since they hold that kind of responsibility, but there is also Catholic news letters that are easier to put thing in, like sex, that people don't like to vocalize. Parents are also responsible for teaching their moral views to their own children as well, but if you're looking at big impact for Catholics in general it should come from a priest.

But this all assumes that a valid argument for why can be presented. It would be good practice for you to try.