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Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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4/26/2013 3:40:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Is the resolution "Resolved: The Bible endorses slavery" a dishonest resolution for debate?
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royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/26/2013 5:39:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 3:40:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Is the resolution "Resolved: The Bible endorses slavery" a dishonest resolution for debate?

No. How is that dishonest? It might be offensive, but it is not dishonest.

Unless you are using clever wording to give your opponent no ground, resolutions are not dishonest.
Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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4/26/2013 5:44:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 3:40:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Is the resolution "Resolved: The Bible endorses slavery" a dishonest resolution for debate?:

It is dishonest because you invoke your meaning of the word on a culture thousands of years ago and you can not do such.
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royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/26/2013 5:49:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 5:44:54 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/26/2013 3:40:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Is the resolution "Resolved: The Bible endorses slavery" a dishonest resolution for debate?:

It is dishonest because you invoke your meaning of the word on a culture thousands of years ago and you can not do such.

Is that so? Was slavery voluntary thousands of years ago? Was Egyptian slavery different from slavery in the US at the basic level? Sure, there may have been a few differences as to how the slaves were treated, but slavery has always been forced labor.

Do you support the Bible's form of slavery?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/26/2013 5:53:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm going to go ahead and preempt your response because I have to log off in ten minutes.

Judaism's religious texts contain numerous laws governing the ownership and treatment of slaves. Texts that contain such regulations include the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible), the Talmud, the 12th century Mishneh Torah by noted rabbi Maimonides, and the 16th century Shulchan Aruch by rabbi Yosef Karo. The original Israelite slavery laws found in the Hebrew Bible bear some resemblance to the 18th century BCE slavery laws of Hammurabi.[1] The regulations changed over time. Scholars are not certain to what extent the laws were generally followed, and some scholars suggest that some of the laws were aspirational guidelines.[2] The Hebrew Bible contained two sets of laws, one for Canaanite slaves, and a more lenient set of laws for Hebrew slaves. However, unlike other near-eastern faith based laws, non-Jewish slaves were not to do labor on the Sabbath and Festivals.[3] In the modern era, when the abolitionist movement sought to outlaw slavery, supporters of slavery used the laws to provide religious justification for the practice of slavery.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/26/2013 5:53:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
To pre-empt your claims about indentured servitude: The Jewish Bible contains two sets of rules governing slaves: one set for Jewish slaves (Lev 25:39-43) and a second set for Canaanite slaves (Lev 25:45-46).[1][7] The main source of non-Jewish slaves were prisoners of war.[5] Jewish slaves, in contrast to non-Jewish slaves, became slaves either because of extreme poverty (in which case they could sell themselves to a Jewish owner) or because of inability to pay a debt.[4]
Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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4/26/2013 5:54:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 5:49:11 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/26/2013 5:44:54 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/26/2013 3:40:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Is the resolution "Resolved: The Bible endorses slavery" a dishonest resolution for debate?:

It is dishonest because you invoke your meaning of the word on a culture thousands of years ago and you can not do such.

Is that so? Was slavery voluntary thousands of years ago? Was Egyptian slavery different from slavery in the US at the basic level? Sure, there may have been a few differences as to how the slaves were treated, but slavery has always been forced labor.:

Slavery is not always forced labor. Slaves have volunteered to be slaves from protection to debts owed.

Do you support the Bible's form of slavery?

I support the Bible from cover to cover. I do not pretend to have greater moral value then past generations.
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royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/26/2013 5:54:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The laws governing non-Jewish slaves were more harsh than those governing Jewish slaves: non-Jewish slaves could be owned permanently, and bequeathed to the owner's children,[11] whereas Jewish slaves were treated as servants, and were released after 7 years of service.[12] One scholar suggests that the distinction was due to the fact that non-Jewish slaves were subject to the curse of Canaan, whereas God did not want Jews to be slaves because he freed them from Egyptian enslavement.[13]
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/26/2013 5:56:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 5:54:24 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/26/2013 5:49:11 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/26/2013 5:44:54 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/26/2013 3:40:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Is the resolution "Resolved: The Bible endorses slavery" a dishonest resolution for debate?:

It is dishonest because you invoke your meaning of the word on a culture thousands of years ago and you can not do such.

Is that so? Was slavery voluntary thousands of years ago? Was Egyptian slavery different from slavery in the US at the basic level? Sure, there may have been a few differences as to how the slaves were treated, but slavery has always been forced labor.:

Slavery is not always forced labor. Slaves have volunteered to be slaves from protection to debts owed.
That is called indentured servitude, and I preempted this response. Yes, Jews became indentured servants (which I still find incredibly immoral), but non-Jewish prisoners of war were captured and forced to work. Both biblical and historical evidence supports this. The Jews themselves admit this.

Do you support the Bible's form of slavery?

I support the Bible from cover to cover. I do not pretend to have greater moral value then past generations.
Ok, so you endorse slavery then. Good to know.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/26/2013 5:57:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Bible permits fathers to sell female children to be sex slaves:

The biblical ability for fathers to sell their daughters into slavery[31] was restricted by the classical sources, to extend only to pre-pubescent daughters, and only then as a last resort before the father had to sell himself[32][33]

The classical rabbis instructed that masters could never marry female slaves - they would have to be manumitted first;[34] similarly, they ruled that male slaves could not be allowed to marry Jewish women.[35] By contrast, masters were given the right to the services of the wives of any of their slaves, if the enslaved husband had been sold into slavery by a court of law.[36] Unlike the biblical instruction to sell thieves into slavery (if they were caught during daylight, and couldn't repay the theft), the rabbis ordered that female Israelites could never be sold into slavery for this reason.[32]
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/26/2013 5:58:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 5:56:39 AM, Pennington wrote:
@Royal,

Are we going to get a point sometime soon?

I already made my point. Forced bondage is forced bondage. His resolution is not dishonest; you are being dishonest by excluding the non-Jewish slaves. Of course, you probably view them as sub-human just like the Israelites did, so I'm not surprised that you're refusing to take them into account.
Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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4/26/2013 5:59:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 5:56:01 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/26/2013 5:54:24 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/26/2013 5:49:11 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/26/2013 5:44:54 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/26/2013 3:40:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Is the resolution "Resolved: The Bible endorses slavery" a dishonest resolution for debate?:

It is dishonest because you invoke your meaning of the word on a culture thousands of years ago and you can not do such.

Is that so? Was slavery voluntary thousands of years ago? Was Egyptian slavery different from slavery in the US at the basic level? Sure, there may have been a few differences as to how the slaves were treated, but slavery has always been forced labor.:

Slavery is not always forced labor. Slaves have volunteered to be slaves from protection to debts owed.
That is called indentured servitude, and I preempted this response. Yes, Jews became indentured servants (which I still find incredibly immoral), but non-Jewish prisoners of war were captured and forced to work. Both biblical and historical evidence supports this. The Jews themselves admit this. :

Again I do not reject this, Umm..I know my Bible.

Do you support the Bible's form of slavery?

I support the Bible from cover to cover. I do not pretend to have greater moral value then past generations.
Ok, so you endorse slavery then. Good to know.

Ok, It is good to know you endorse that you have right to impose a modern standard on a acient people, good to know.
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Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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4/26/2013 6:00:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 5:58:55 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/26/2013 5:56:39 AM, Pennington wrote:
@Royal,

Are we going to get a point sometime soon?

I already made my point. Forced bondage is forced bondage. His resolution is not dishonest; you are being dishonest by excluding the non-Jewish slaves. Of course, you probably view them as sub-human just like the Israelites did, so I'm not surprised that you're refusing to take them into account.:
You both are dishonest by claiming you have any right to impose what you THINK is right on people three thousand years ago. Laughable.
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royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/26/2013 6:03:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 6:00:32 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/26/2013 5:58:55 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/26/2013 5:56:39 AM, Pennington wrote:
@Royal,

Are we going to get a point sometime soon?

I already made my point. Forced bondage is forced bondage. His resolution is not dishonest; you are being dishonest by excluding the non-Jewish slaves. Of course, you probably view them as sub-human just like the Israelites did, so I'm not surprised that you're refusing to take them into account.:
You both are dishonest by claiming you have any right to impose what you THINK is right on people three thousand years ago. Laughable.

Morality is universal. If you do not believe this, you cannot be a Christian.
Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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4/26/2013 6:03:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The point is, there was no freedom in the time period. You lived in a Patriarchs territory and you were his slave or servant. There was no freedom and human rights then. So, you enforcing those laws and beliefs today on them or a book from then is dishonest.
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royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/26/2013 6:04:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Pennington, how can you judge Bin Laden? If morality is not universal, it is laughable that you think you can judge another human being from another society for attempting to kill you.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/26/2013 6:05:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 6:03:35 AM, Pennington wrote:
The point is, there was no freedom in the time period. You lived in a Patriarchs territory and you were his slave or servant. There was no freedom and human rights then. So, you enforcing those laws and beliefs today on them or a book from then is dishonest.

You're describing a state of affairs, but not what the state of affairs ought to have been like. You cannot derive an "ought" from an "is".
Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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4/26/2013 6:06:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 6:03:04 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/26/2013 6:00:32 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/26/2013 5:58:55 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/26/2013 5:56:39 AM, Pennington wrote:
@Royal,

Are we going to get a point sometime soon?

I already made my point. Forced bondage is forced bondage. His resolution is not dishonest; you are being dishonest by excluding the non-Jewish slaves. Of course, you probably view them as sub-human just like the Israelites did, so I'm not surprised that you're refusing to take them into account.:
You both are dishonest by claiming you have any right to impose what you THINK is right on people three thousand years ago. Laughable.

Morality is universal.:

Really. Would you debate that? There is many who are without our sense of morality.

If you do not believe this, you cannot be a Christian.

No, you are mistaken. Are you Christian and claim what a Christian would believe? Not to say some don't.
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Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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4/26/2013 6:07:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 6:04:07 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Pennington, how can you judge Bin Laden? If morality is not universal, it is laughable that you think you can judge another human being from another society for attempting to kill you.:

I don't judge period. I also have no opinion about Bin Laden, you bought that line.
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Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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4/26/2013 6:08:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 6:05:01 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/26/2013 6:03:35 AM, Pennington wrote:
The point is, there was no freedom in the time period. You lived in a Patriarchs territory and you were his slave or servant. There was no freedom and human rights then. So, you enforcing those laws and beliefs today on them or a book from then is dishonest.

You're describing a state of affairs, but not what the state of affairs ought to have been like. You cannot derive an "ought" from an "is".

Who is to say what ought to be? Who says what ought to have been thousand of years ago?
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Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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4/26/2013 6:27:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 6:06:15 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/26/2013 6:03:04 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/26/2013 6:00:32 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/26/2013 5:58:55 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/26/2013 5:56:39 AM, Pennington wrote:
@Royal,

Are we going to get a point sometime soon?

I already made my point. Forced bondage is forced bondage. His resolution is not dishonest; you are being dishonest by excluding the non-Jewish slaves. Of course, you probably view them as sub-human just like the Israelites did, so I'm not surprised that you're refusing to take them into account.:
You both are dishonest by claiming you have any right to impose what you THINK is right on people three thousand years ago. Laughable.

Morality is universal.:

Really. Would you debate that? There is many who are without our sense of morality.

If you do not believe this, you cannot be a Christian.

No, you are mistaken. Are you Christian and claim what a Christian would believe? Not to say some don't.

I think you guys are talking past each other. When she says morality is universal, Pennington, I'm pretty sure she means that there's an established set of moral facts that are true regardless of who takes them into consideration, leads a 'good' life, etc. I think you're taking the phrase "morality is universal" to mean that everyone has the same kinds of feelings about morality, or maybe that everyone acts similarly morally or something.
Sui_Generis
Posts: 493
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4/26/2013 7:09:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I barely read the other posters, but I support the biblical definition of slavery, and don't think it should be outlawed. Forced labor SHOULD (19th century America) be outlawed. But people routinely sold themselves into slavery to pay for debts. I don't see any reason why that should be illegal.
"Mundus vult decipi--the world wants to be deceived. The truth is too complex and frightening; the taste for the truth is an acquired taste that few acquire."
-Martin Buber, I and Thou
Sui_Generis
Posts: 493
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4/26/2013 7:11:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 6:27:13 AM, Rusty wrote:
At 4/26/2013 6:06:15 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/26/2013 6:03:04 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/26/2013 6:00:32 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/26/2013 5:58:55 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/26/2013 5:56:39 AM, Pennington wrote:
@Royal,

Are we going to get a point sometime soon?

I already made my point. Forced bondage is forced bondage. His resolution is not dishonest; you are being dishonest by excluding the non-Jewish slaves. Of course, you probably view them as sub-human just like the Israelites did, so I'm not surprised that you're refusing to take them into account.:
You both are dishonest by claiming you have any right to impose what you THINK is right on people three thousand years ago. Laughable.

Morality is universal.:

Really. Would you debate that? There is many who are without our sense of morality.

If you do not believe this, you cannot be a Christian.

No, you are mistaken. Are you Christian and claim what a Christian would believe? Not to say some don't.

I think you guys are talking past each other. When she says morality is universal, Pennington, I'm pretty sure she means that there's an established set of moral facts that are true regardless of who takes them into consideration, leads a 'good' life, etc. I think you're taking the phrase "morality is universal" to mean that everyone has the same kinds of feelings about morality, or maybe that everyone acts similarly morally or something.

I hope that's the case.... morality IS universal, and such a position is NECESSARILY HELD by Christians.
"Mundus vult decipi--the world wants to be deceived. The truth is too complex and frightening; the taste for the truth is an acquired taste that few acquire."
-Martin Buber, I and Thou
Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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4/26/2013 7:16:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 7:11:49 AM, Sui_Generis wrote:
At 4/26/2013 6:27:13 AM, Rusty wrote:
At 4/26/2013 6:06:15 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/26/2013 6:03:04 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/26/2013 6:00:32 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/26/2013 5:58:55 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/26/2013 5:56:39 AM, Pennington wrote:
@Royal,

Are we going to get a point sometime soon?

I already made my point. Forced bondage is forced bondage. His resolution is not dishonest; you are being dishonest by excluding the non-Jewish slaves. Of course, you probably view them as sub-human just like the Israelites did, so I'm not surprised that you're refusing to take them into account.:
You both are dishonest by claiming you have any right to impose what you THINK is right on people three thousand years ago. Laughable.

Morality is universal.:

Really. Would you debate that? There is many who are without our sense of morality.

If you do not believe this, you cannot be a Christian.

No, you are mistaken. Are you Christian and claim what a Christian would believe? Not to say some don't.

I think you guys are talking past each other. When she says morality is universal, Pennington, I'm pretty sure she means that there's an established set of moral facts that are true regardless of who takes them into consideration, leads a 'good' life, etc. I think you're taking the phrase "morality is universal" to mean that everyone has the same kinds of feelings about morality, or maybe that everyone acts similarly morally or something.

I hope that's the case.... morality IS universal, and such a position is NECESSARILY HELD by Christians.

It was. She did not say subjective. I took it as we all feel the same morality universally.
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Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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4/26/2013 8:06:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 5:44:54 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/26/2013 3:40:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Is the resolution "Resolved: The Bible endorses slavery" a dishonest resolution for debate?:

It is dishonest because you invoke your meaning of the word on a culture thousands of years ago and you can not do such.

So God's morality conforms to culture? I thought it was supposed to be the other way around? If Slavery is bad, God should have made that clear instead of just giving humans rules to govern it.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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4/26/2013 8:11:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 8:07:54 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
No. But insinuating that Christians condone slavery because of it is.

However, this discrepancy can and should be laughed at.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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4/26/2013 10:07:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 5:57:35 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Bible permits fathers to sell female children to be sex slaves:

The biblical ability for fathers to sell their daughters into slavery[31] was restricted by the classical sources, to extend only to pre-pubescent daughters, and only then as a last resort before the father had to sell himself[32][33]

The classical rabbis instructed that masters could never marry female slaves - they would have to be manumitted first;[34] similarly, they ruled that male slaves could not be allowed to marry Jewish women.[35] By contrast, masters were given the right to the services of the wives of any of their slaves, if the enslaved husband had been sold into slavery by a court of law.[36] Unlike the biblical instruction to sell thieves into slavery (if they were caught during daylight, and couldn't repay the theft), the rabbis ordered that female Israelites could never be sold into slavery for this reason.[32]

Selling daughters into slavery or prostitution during ancient was extremely common during the ancient era as it was (obviously) preferable to having the family starve. Jewish law adapted itself, just like every other religious code or ethical system. Not sure what the point is, other than painting Jews as especially evil.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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4/26/2013 10:09:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 5:53:11 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
I'm going to go ahead and preempt your response because I have to log off in ten minutes.

Judaism's religious texts contain numerous laws governing the ownership and treatment of slaves. Texts that contain such regulations include the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible), the Talmud, the 12th century Mishneh Torah by noted rabbi Maimonides, and the 16th century Shulchan Aruch by rabbi Yosef Karo. The original Israelite slavery laws found in the Hebrew Bible bear some resemblance to the 18th century BCE slavery laws of Hammurabi.[1] The regulations changed over time. Scholars are not certain to what extent the laws were generally followed, and some scholars suggest that some of the laws were aspirational guidelines.[2] The Hebrew Bible contained two sets of laws, one for Canaanite slaves, and a more lenient set of laws for Hebrew slaves. However, unlike other near-eastern faith based laws, non-Jewish slaves were not to do labor on the Sabbath and Festivals.[3] In the modern era, when the abolitionist movement sought to outlaw slavery, supporters of slavery used the laws to provide religious justification for the practice of slavery.

And? During antiquity ethnicity was the sole defining characteristic of different people. Pretty much all cultures systematically took other peoples as slaves. Again, zero point other than the usual anti-Semitic whitewashing.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."