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A theist turning deist, God is not personal.

johnlubba
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4/28/2013 4:41:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
A personal God who stands by and watches humanity suffer the most miserable conditions is either perverted or seriously twisted........

God does not deserve respect from anybody, it is all well and good to love God whilst things are going well for me, but A God that allows so much suffering to continue is either powerless to stop it or is a perverted sick twisted being.
Fruitytree
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4/28/2013 8:47:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
God, as I know him, does not need advise from anybody. This world is the world of tests and turmoials for us all , and the ones who succeed are the ones who are steadfast, and don't loose their faith in the first bump.

If you were thinking that God is Love, like I heard some say before, then you had a wrong idea, and this may cause your actual feelings. God is loving, but his love is conditional: to your love, your submission to his commands and your humility.
AlbinoBunny
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4/28/2013 8:58:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 8:47:44 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
God, as I know him, does not need advise from anybody. This world is the world of tests and turmoials for us all , and the ones who succeed are the ones who are steadfast, and don't loose their faith in the first bump.

If you were thinking that God is Love, like I heard some say before, then you had a wrong idea, and this may cause your actual feelings. God is loving, but his love is conditional: to your love, your submission to his commands and your humility.

Just think of "God" like a dictator, then you'll understand.
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Fruitytree
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4/28/2013 9:18:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Yes , a dictator who set his own rules, but a merciful one.

the word "dictator" may look bad these days, but God is not equal to us, he is above us, he created us, made rules, if one does not follow the rules after knwing them , then he desrves whatsoever God promised him.
AlbinoBunny
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4/28/2013 9:19:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 9:18:14 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
Yes , a dictator who set his own rules, but a merciful one.

the word "dictator" may look bad these days, but God is not equal to us, he is above us, he created us, made rules, if one does not follow the rules after knwing them , then he desrves whatsoever God promised him.

Spoken like a true worshipper of a dictator.
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dylancatlow
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4/28/2013 9:21:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 9:19:27 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/28/2013 9:18:14 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
Yes , a dictator who set his own rules, but a merciful one.

the word "dictator" may look bad these days, but God is not equal to us, he is above us, he created us, made rules, if one does not follow the rules after knwing them , then he desrves whatsoever God promised him.

Spoken like a true worshipper of a dictator.

Lol
Rational_Thinker9119
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4/28/2013 10:35:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 4:41:43 AM, johnlubba wrote:
A personal God who stands by and watches humanity suffer the most miserable conditions is either perverted or seriously twisted........



God does not deserve respect from anybody, it is all well and good to love God whilst things are going well for me, but A God that allows so much suffering to continue is either powerless to stop it or is a perverted sick twisted being.

Maybe God has some good reason to allow these horrible things. The logic works. I mean, I'll rape your mom but you can't get angry because I could have a good reason you just don't know about! Move along....
Fruitytree
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4/28/2013 10:40:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
So because God is not like what you imagined or hoped in your inocent dreams , you should not believe in him ?!

Well up to you guys, deception after deception.

Truly He is Who he is, you don't define him with your logic , but only with his revelation.
AlbinoBunny
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4/28/2013 10:45:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 10:40:34 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
So because God is not like what you imagined or hoped in your inocent dreams , you should not believe in him ?!

Well up to you guys, deception after deception.

Truly He is Who he is, you don't define him with your logic , but only with his revelation.

No, I don't have a reason to believe. What I'm saying is, if that is in fact how your "God" is, then I don't want to follow such a "God". Just because you're happy to follow the dictator doesn't mean I am. Just because you think it's the right thing to do doesn't mean I think it is, or that it actually is.

What deception? Yours?
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Fruitytree
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4/28/2013 10:50:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
So if you believed there is a god, you still won't follow him because the injustice on earth ? and what would you expect then ?

I meant deception for disbelievers , the first here and the last in the hereafter.
AlbinoBunny
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4/28/2013 10:53:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 10:50:28 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
So if you believed there is a god, you still won't follow him because the injustice on earth ? and what would you expect then ?

No. A god could be anything. The "God" named in Christianity and Islam seems vicious and immoral, possibly even malevolent. That is why I wouldn't follow them. What would I expect, in what sense?


I meant deception for disbelievers , the first here and the last in the hereafter.

Elaborate.
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PureX
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4/28/2013 10:57:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 4:41:43 AM, johnlubba wrote:
A personal God who stands by and watches humanity suffer the most miserable conditions is either perverted or seriously twisted........



God does not deserve respect from anybody, it is all well and good to love God whilst things are going well for me, but A God that allows so much suffering to continue is either powerless to stop it or is a perverted sick twisted being.

First, I don't think the "personal God" concept should be held to your "generalized god" standard. To do so would be somewhat of an abuse of the idea, don't you think? After all, we're talking about a personal idealization of God, and your trying to hold it to a generalized idealization of God's criteria.

Secondly, there seems to be a presumption in your complaint that our ideas of "God" are static, rather than dynamic. It's kind of like insisting that you opponent's argument stand still, so that you can more easily shoot it down.

Our concepts of "God" are varied and dynamic, and can change relative to the circumstances to which we are applying them. The personal god-concept that you are referring to is a conception of God that theists adopt in relation to intimate personal circumstances. They do not apply it to the world in general, as you have done. To a theist, God is not a static object, God is a dynamic ideal that transcends the parameters of the merely personal, to the general, to the absolute and infinite. God is therefor manifested on many levels, an intimate personal level being only one of these.
AlbinoBunny
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4/28/2013 11:02:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 10:57:01 AM, PureX wrote:
At 4/28/2013 4:41:43 AM, johnlubba wrote:
A personal God who stands by and watches humanity suffer the most miserable conditions is either perverted or seriously twisted........



God does not deserve respect from anybody, it is all well and good to love God whilst things are going well for me, but A God that allows so much suffering to continue is either powerless to stop it or is a perverted sick twisted being.

First, I don't think the "personal God" concept should be held to your "generalized god" standard. To do so would be somewhat of an abuse of the idea, don't you think? After all, we're talking about a personal idealization of God, and your trying to hold it to a generalized idealization of God's criteria.

Secondly, there seems to be a presumption in your complaint that our ideas of "God" are static, rather than dynamic. It's kind of like insisting that you opponent's argument stand still, so that you can more easily shoot it down.

Our concepts of "God" are varied and dynamic, and can change relative to the circumstances to which we are applying them. The personal god-concept that you are referring to is a conception of God that theists adopt in relation to intimate personal circumstances. They do not apply it to the world in general, as you have done. To a theist, God is not a static object, God is a dynamic ideal that transcends the parameters of the merely personal, to the general, to the absolute and infinite. God is therefor manifested on many levels, an intimate personal level being only one of these.

We should also note that there can be many gods.
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Fruitytree
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4/28/2013 11:23:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Bunny , what is moralily ? to me morality is defined by the creator. but for you what is it ? is it the modern laws that you guys have come to ?

I meant that you are judging God, and you relly are not in the position to do so !!what do you then expect huh!

Elaboration, if God exists, then your first deception is that you missed something huge, and the second is the punishment for having missed it.

well I'm not your judge of course, it's in the perspective of your disbelieve after evidence.
PureX
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4/28/2013 11:34:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 11:02:24 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/28/2013 10:57:01 AM, PureX wrote:
At 4/28/2013 4:41:43 AM, johnlubba wrote:
A personal God who stands by and watches humanity suffer the most miserable conditions is either perverted or seriously twisted........



God does not deserve respect from anybody, it is all well and good to love God whilst things are going well for me, but A God that allows so much suffering to continue is either powerless to stop it or is a perverted sick twisted being.

First, I don't think the "personal God" concept should be held to your "generalized god" standard. To do so would be somewhat of an abuse of the idea, don't you think? After all, we're talking about a personal idealization of God, and your trying to hold it to a generalized idealization of God's criteria.

Secondly, there seems to be a presumption in your complaint that our ideas of "God" are static, rather than dynamic. It's kind of like insisting that you opponent's argument stand still, so that you can more easily shoot it down.

Our concepts of "God" are varied and dynamic, and can change relative to the circumstances to which we are applying them. The personal god-concept that you are referring to is a conception of God that theists adopt in relation to intimate personal circumstances. They do not apply it to the world in general, as you have done. To a theist, God is not a static object, God is a dynamic ideal that transcends the parameters of the merely personal, to the general, to the absolute and infinite. God is therefor manifested on many levels, an intimate personal level being only one of these.

We should also note that there can be many gods.

That's true. But in modern times, most religions that employ multiple gods recognize them as conceptual manifestations of one ultimate 'god-ness' of some sort. And the adherent appeals to whichever conceptual demigod best relates to their circumstances at the time.
AlbinoBunny
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4/28/2013 11:39:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 11:23:15 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
Bunny , what is moralily ? to me morality is defined by the creator. but for you what is it ? is it the modern laws that you guys have come to ?

What people think is right and wrong.


I meant that you are judging God, and you relly are not in the position to do so !!what do you then expect huh!

I'll still judge any "god(s)".


Elaboration, if God exists, then your first deception is that you missed something huge, and the second is the punishment for having missed it.

Neither is a deception.


well I'm not your judge of course, it's in the perspective of your disbelieve after evidence.

What? What evidence?
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Fruitytree
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4/28/2013 12:46:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
People don't agree, theists don't agree, atheists don't agree, scientific people don't agree,philosophers don't agree, no morality can make concensus!! and thus you saying that God according to christianty or Islam is immoral doesn't make any sense!!!!

you judging God, in the perspective that you believe, shows lack of wisdom and a touch of foolishness.
AlbinoBunny
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4/28/2013 1:54:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 12:46:29 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
People don't agree, theists don't agree, atheists don't agree, scientific people don't agree,philosophers don't agree, no morality can make concensus!! and thus you saying that God according to christianty or Islam is immoral doesn't make any sense!!!!

you judging God, in the perspective that you believe, shows lack of wisdom and a touch of foolishness.

Immoral to me. Also the way they talk about people going to hell (at least in Islam) I think most people can agree is immoral.
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Fruitytree
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4/28/2013 2:05:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Thank you for your honesty, immoral to you, and to the people who may feel pointed by the verses.
medic0506
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4/28/2013 4:22:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 4:41:43 AM, johnlubba wrote:
A personal God who stands by and watches humanity suffer the most miserable conditions is either perverted or seriously twisted........



God does not deserve respect from anybody, it is all well and good to love God whilst things are going well for me, but A God that allows so much suffering to continue is either powerless to stop it or is a perverted sick twisted being.

Wouldn't a deistic god who creates such an evil place be just as guilty of being powerless, or a sick perverted twisted being??
Fruitytree
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4/28/2013 5:08:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
No, he made this a place of test. and he will rstore justice in the next life.

Would you expect a teacher to give you the right answers during the exams just because you messed up ?!
Magic8000
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4/28/2013 5:15:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 4:22:08 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 4/28/2013 4:41:43 AM, johnlubba wrote:
A personal God who stands by and watches humanity suffer the most miserable conditions is either perverted or seriously twisted........



God does not deserve respect from anybody, it is all well and good to love God whilst things are going well for me, but A God that allows so much suffering to continue is either powerless to stop it or is a perverted sick twisted being.

Wouldn't a deistic god who creates such an evil place be just as guilty of being powerless, or a sick perverted twisted being??

A deistic God doesn't need to be all powerful, good, have free will, or care for that matter. It just needs to be a creator
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

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Nur-Ab-Sal
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4/28/2013 5:31:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 5:15:44 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 4/28/2013 4:22:08 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 4/28/2013 4:41:43 AM, johnlubba wrote:
A personal God who stands by and watches humanity suffer the most miserable conditions is either perverted or seriously twisted........



God does not deserve respect from anybody, it is all well and good to love God whilst things are going well for me, but A God that allows so much suffering to continue is either powerless to stop it or is a perverted sick twisted being.

Wouldn't a deistic god who creates such an evil place be just as guilty of being powerless, or a sick perverted twisted being??

A deistic God doesn't need to be all powerful, good, have free will, or care for that matter. It just needs to be a creator

I dunno why you'd call that God, though. It seems you'd be bastardizing the term.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
StevenDixon
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4/28/2013 5:35:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 8:47:44 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
God, as I know him, does not need advise from anybody. This world is the world of tests and turmoials for us all , and the ones who succeed are the ones who are steadfast, and don't loose their faith in the first bump.

If you were thinking that God is Love, like I heard some say before, then you had a wrong idea, and this may cause your actual feelings. God is loving, but his love is conditional: to your love, your submission to his commands and your humility.

Ah so harlequin ichthyosis is a test. Not helping your case, this makes god a horrible teacher and a being incapable of empathy. Honestly giving someone horrible diseases or cancer as a test is worse than that teacher who fed his sperm to his students. Yet you worship this disgusting concept.

You could say "well god came down as jesus so this makes it ok"...Jesus didn't have family that he had to see watch him deteriorate and suffer over a period of a year.
PureX
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4/29/2013 7:59:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 5:35:29 PM, StevenDixon wrote:
At 4/28/2013 8:47:44 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
God, as I know him, does not need advise from anybody. This world is the world of tests and turmoials for us all , and the ones who succeed are the ones who are steadfast, and don't loose their faith in the first bump.

If you were thinking that God is Love, like I heard some say before, then you had a wrong idea, and this may cause your actual feelings. God is loving, but his love is conditional: to your love, your submission to his commands and your humility.

Ah so harlequin ichthyosis is a test. Not helping your case, this makes god a horrible teacher and a being incapable of empathy. Honestly giving someone horrible diseases or cancer as a test is worse than that teacher who fed his sperm to his students. Yet you worship this disgusting concept.

You could say "well god came down as jesus so this makes it ok"...Jesus didn't have family that he had to see watch him deteriorate and suffer over a period of a year.

All these complaints are based on a 'God as a man' representation. And there is no particular reason why we grown-ups should assume any such characteristics. Also, it's based on the idea that God should be in the service of mankind's needs and desires, and I can see no reason for us to assume that, either, except our own egos.

When God is being presented in that human-like way by some religious texts and tools, it's done so mostly for the benefit of the religious neophytes. It's sort of like using Santa Clause and Christmas so teach children the concept of giving gifts to those we love. But it makes for a very easy target for those who are looking for an excuse to reject the idea of God in all forms.

To me, though, it's a cheap bit of sophistry to use the simplest and most child-like representations of God as justification for the dismissal of all conceptions of God.
AlbinoBunny
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4/29/2013 8:28:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 7:59:27 AM, PureX wrote:
At 4/28/2013 5:35:29 PM, StevenDixon wrote:
At 4/28/2013 8:47:44 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
God, as I know him, does not need advise from anybody. This world is the world of tests and turmoials for us all , and the ones who succeed are the ones who are steadfast, and don't loose their faith in the first bump.

If you were thinking that God is Love, like I heard some say before, then you had a wrong idea, and this may cause your actual feelings. God is loving, but his love is conditional: to your love, your submission to his commands and your humility.

Ah so harlequin ichthyosis is a test. Not helping your case, this makes god a horrible teacher and a being incapable of empathy. Honestly giving someone horrible diseases or cancer as a test is worse than that teacher who fed his sperm to his students. Yet you worship this disgusting concept.

You could say "well god came down as jesus so this makes it ok"...Jesus didn't have family that he had to see watch him deteriorate and suffer over a period of a year.

All these complaints are based on a 'God as a man' representation. And there is no particular reason why we grown-ups should assume any such characteristics. Also, it's based on the idea that God should be in the service of mankind's needs and desires, and I can see no reason for us to assume that, either, except our own egos.

When God is being presented in that human-like way by some religious texts and tools, it's done so mostly for the benefit of the religious neophytes. It's sort of like using Santa Clause and Christmas so teach children the concept of giving gifts to those we love. But it makes for a very easy target for those who are looking for an excuse to reject the idea of God in all forms.

To me, though, it's a cheap bit of sophistry to use the simplest and most child-like representations of God as justification for the dismissal of all conceptions of God.

So, what is "God"? Why does it have to be just one?
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PureX
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4/29/2013 8:45:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 8:28:33 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/29/2013 7:59:27 AM, PureX wrote:
At 4/28/2013 5:35:29 PM, StevenDixon wrote:
At 4/28/2013 8:47:44 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
God, as I know him, does not need advise from anybody. This world is the world of tests and turmoials for us all , and the ones who succeed are the ones who are steadfast, and don't loose their faith in the first bump.

If you were thinking that God is Love, like I heard some say before, then you had a wrong idea, and this may cause your actual feelings. God is loving, but his love is conditional: to your love, your submission to his commands and your humility.

Ah so harlequin ichthyosis is a test. Not helping your case, this makes god a horrible teacher and a being incapable of empathy. Honestly giving someone horrible diseases or cancer as a test is worse than that teacher who fed his sperm to his students. Yet you worship this disgusting concept.

You could say "well god came down as jesus so this makes it ok"...Jesus didn't have family that he had to see watch him deteriorate and suffer over a period of a year.

All these complaints are based on a 'God as a man' representation. And there is no particular reason why we grown-ups should assume any such characteristics. Also, it's based on the idea that God should be in the service of mankind's needs and desires, and I can see no reason for us to assume that, either, except our own egos.

When God is being presented in that human-like way by some religious texts and tools, it's done so mostly for the benefit of the religious neophytes. It's sort of like using Santa Clause and Christmas so teach children the concept of giving gifts to those we love. But it makes for a very easy target for those who are looking for an excuse to reject the idea of God in all forms.

To me, though, it's a cheap bit of sophistry to use the simplest and most child-like representations of God as justification for the dismissal of all conceptions of God.

So, what is "God"? Why does it have to be just one?

For the vast majority of theists, it's both one and many. Because "God" is the Whole, and we can't comprehend the Whole. We can only perceive it in part. So that religions like Hinduism that have multiple manifestations of the Divine Wholeness categorize the "parts" and represent them with various demigods. A demigod of love/procreation, a demigod of warfare, a demigod of change/travel, etc.,.

Or in the case of Christianity, you have "God the father" being manifested in human form by "God the son", and in our us as individuals as God's "Holy Spirit". And we find this singular God with multiple "divine manifestations" throughout theism. And that's because "God" is greater than we can comprehend. And must therefor be experienced to be recognized. This is what atheists can't or won't understand, and so will not accept as valid. Yet it's because they will not accept such a proposal as being valid, in advance of their experience of it, that they render themselves incapable of having such a validating experience.

It's a "Catch-22".

(But I'm getting off topic. Sorry.)
AlbinoBunny
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4/29/2013 9:32:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 8:45:55 AM, PureX wrote:
At 4/29/2013 8:28:33 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:


So, what is "God"? Why does it have to be just one?

For the vast majority of theists, it's both one and many. Because "God" is the Whole, and we can't comprehend the Whole. We can only perceive it in part. So that religions like Hinduism that have multiple manifestations of the Divine Wholeness categorize the "parts" and represent them with various demigods. A demigod of love/procreation, a demigod of warfare, a demigod of change/travel, etc.,.

Or in the case of Christianity, you have "God the father" being manifested in human form by "God the son", and in our us as individuals as God's "Holy Spirit". And we find this singular God with multiple "divine manifestations" throughout theism. And that's because "God" is greater than we can comprehend. And must therefor be experienced to be recognized. This is what atheists can't or won't understand, and so will not accept as valid. Yet it's because they will not accept such a proposal as being valid, in advance of their experience of it, that they render themselves incapable of having such a validating experience.

It's a "Catch-22".

(But I'm getting off topic. Sorry.)

"In the Hindu religion, demigod is used to refer to deities who were once human and later became devas (gods) and are worshiped as such. Worship of the demigods is often different from worship of the regular gods such as Lord Ganesha and Lord Shiva."

http://en.wikipedia.org...

There's no need to twist so many words just to convince people to believe in your "God" you know.
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johnlubba
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4/29/2013 10:54:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 10:57:01 AM, PureX wrote:
At 4/28/2013 4:41:43 AM, johnlubba wrote:
A personal God who stands by and watches humanity suffer the most miserable conditions is either perverted or seriously twisted........



God does not deserve respect from anybody, it is all well and good to love God whilst things are going well for me, but A God that allows so much suffering to continue is either powerless to stop it or is a perverted sick twisted being.

First, I don't think the "personal God" concept should be held to your "generalized god" standard. To do so would be somewhat of an abuse of the idea, don't you think? After all, we're talking about a personal idealization of God, and your trying to hold it to a generalized idealization of God's criteria.

Secondly, there seems to be a presumption in your complaint that our ideas of "God" are static, rather than dynamic. It's kind of like insisting that you opponent's argument stand still, so that you can more easily shoot it down.

Our concepts of "God" are varied and dynamic, and can change relative to the circumstances to which we are applying them. The personal god-concept that you are referring to is a conception of God that theists adopt in relation to intimate personal circumstances. They do not apply it to the world in general, as you have done. To a theist, God is not a static object, God is a dynamic ideal that transcends the parameters of the merely personal, to the general, to the absolute and infinite. God is therefor manifested on many levels, an intimate personal level being only one of these.

Pure cobblers...
johnlubba
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4/29/2013 10:55:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/28/2013 10:35:30 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/28/2013 4:41:43 AM, johnlubba wrote:
A personal God who stands by and watches humanity suffer the most miserable conditions is either perverted or seriously twisted........



God does not deserve respect from anybody, it is all well and good to love God whilst things are going well for me, but A God that allows so much suffering to continue is either powerless to stop it or is a perverted sick twisted being.

Maybe God has some good reason to allow these horrible things. The logic works. I mean, I'll rape your mom but you can't get angry because I could have a good reason you just don't know about! Move along....

What's your point have to do with relation to my topic?