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John

AlwaysMoreThanYou
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5/1/2013 2:18:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The Beloved Disciple, the Man Sent From God, the Servant of God, and the Second Moses was truly the greatest of the Apostles. He defended the true Gospel, and as such we can only trust the Gospel of John, Acts of John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelations.

Discuss.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Nur-Ab-Sal
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5/1/2013 2:44:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Obviously, John the Apostle is the most important.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
jharry
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5/1/2013 3:47:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I absolutely love reading John, just in the first chapter alone I find so many truths. In one verse I find the answer to so many questions I've had over the years.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

This Light is the only presenceIthat sustains all things in my opinion. At certain times in my life I have been so so far away from this Light that it was actually painful. The further I ran from the Light brought me closer to the darkness and from that pain and suffering.

As I said, a single verse from St. John can open up a whole new perspective into this thing we call life.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Smithereens
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5/1/2013 4:36:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Yay! It's John!

The book he wrote was interesting. Compared to the other gospels, is was quite different in the sense that the events he covered where different, the things he preferred to talk about were different etc. Other than that I have nothing to contribute to this discussion.

John is interesting though, when he died, his body took 2 years, 4 months, 18 days to decay. The average human takes 2 years, 3 months to decay though. is this evidence of supernatural tampering on his dead body?? Is it symbolic in any way, shape or form??
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Smithereens
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5/1/2013 4:36:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 2:44:54 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
Obviously, John the Apostle is the most important.

one does not exist without the other.
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Smithereens
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5/1/2013 4:44:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 4:43:22 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
I'm not christian, and the gospel of john is my favorite.

If you are not a christian, I would recommend finding a reason to live.
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AlwaysMoreThanYou
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5/1/2013 4:44:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 4:36:14 AM, Smithereens wrote:
Yay! It's John!

Indeed.

The book he wrote was interesting. Compared to the other gospels, is was quite different in the sense that the events he covered where different, the things he preferred to talk about were different etc.

That is why the other gospels are obviously spurious, and only John's is valid. They contradict each other, and are very similar, so they obviously all spawn from the same corrupt source. Who the heck are Matthew, Mark, and Luke anyway? As the Disciple Whom Jesus Loved, John alone is reliable.

Other than that I have nothing to contribute to this discussion.

John is interesting though, when he died, his body took 2 years, 4 months, 18 days to decay. The average human takes 2 years, 3 months to decay though. is this evidence of supernatural tampering on his dead body?? Is it symbolic in any way, shape or form??

Obviously that shows the supremacy of the Apostle John, Servant of God.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
jharry
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5/1/2013 4:46:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 4:43:22 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
I'm not christian, and the gospel of john is my favorite.

Why? Just curious.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
EliAchphet
Posts: 12
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5/1/2013 4:56:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 2:18:31 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
The Beloved Disciple, the Man Sent From God, the Servant of God, and the Second Moses was truly the greatest of the Apostles. He defended the true Gospel, and as such we can only trust the Gospel of John, Acts of John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelations.

Discuss.

Revelations?
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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5/1/2013 4:58:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 4:56:37 AM, EliAchphet wrote:
At 5/1/2013 2:18:31 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
The Beloved Disciple, the Man Sent From God, the Servant of God, and the Second Moses was truly the greatest of the Apostles. He defended the true Gospel, and as such we can only trust the Gospel of John, Acts of John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelations.

Discuss.

Revelations?

That's a typo.

I should have just stuck to Apocalypse.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
EliAchphet
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5/1/2013 4:58:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 2:18:31 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
The Beloved Disciple, the Man Sent From God, the Servant of God, and the Second Moses was truly the greatest of the Apostles. He defended the true Gospel, and as such we can only trust the Gospel of John, Acts of John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelations.

Discuss.

John of Patmos is not John the Baptist.
Fruitytree
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5/1/2013 5:49:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 4:46:43 AM, jharry wrote:
At 5/1/2013 4:43:22 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
I'm not christian, and the gospel of john is my favorite.

Why? Just curious.

Two reasons:

1- It seems to be the gospel that matches truth the most. including Jesus peace be upon him constantly reminding his disciples that the works he did come from the father, or that in order to be loved by God they need to follow his commands, which is coherent with both old testament and Quran.

2- It contains good tidings of the near coming of the next prophet that I believe is Mohamed peace be upon him that did testify the truth about Jesus peace be upon him, and gave more details on things "yet to come".

It is sad though that there is no way to trace back to the authentic gospel. a loss for all humanity.
jharry
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5/1/2013 5:55:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 5:49:44 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 5/1/2013 4:46:43 AM, jharry wrote:
At 5/1/2013 4:43:22 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
I'm not christian, and the gospel of john is my favorite.

Why? Just curious.

Two reasons:

1- It seems to be the gospel that matches truth the most. including Jesus peace be upon him constantly reminding his disciples that the works he did come from the father, or that in order to be loved by God they need to follow his commands, which is coherent with both old testament and Quran.

2- It contains good tidings of the near coming of the next prophet that I believe is Mohamed peace be upon him that did testify the truth about Jesus peace be upon him, and gave more details on things "yet to come".

It is sad though that there is no way to trace back to the authentic gospel. a loss for all humanity.

Hmmm, any objections to St. John 1:1?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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5/1/2013 6:23:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 4:58:21 AM, EliAchphet wrote:
At 5/1/2013 2:18:31 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
The Beloved Disciple, the Man Sent From God, the Servant of God, and the Second Moses was truly the greatest of the Apostles. He defended the true Gospel, and as such we can only trust the Gospel of John, Acts of John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelations.

Discuss.

John of Patmos is not John the Baptist.

This matter has already been addressed by the greatest theologian of our age.

'I'm going to say that John 1:6 refers to the Apostle and everything after refers to the Baptist[.]' - Nur-Ab-Sal
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Fruitytree
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5/1/2013 6:26:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Who is the person speaking here:

"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life,[a] and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.

9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own,[b] and his own people[c] did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, "He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me."") 16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.[d] 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God,[e] who is at the Father's side,[f] he has made him known."

If it's the Gospel writer then it's his own understanding that he has put, and the writer is not John the Baptist himself. I usually ignore the comments, and take the speech alone unfortunately simply because I don't know who wrote them.

The problem with the Bible is we can always give an answer invalidate part of it or all of it all because of that authenticity problem, and believe me it hurts me more than you.
Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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5/1/2013 6:27:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 2:18:31 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
The Beloved Disciple, the Man Sent From God, the Servant of God, and the Second Moses was truly the greatest of the Apostles. He defended the true Gospel, and as such we can only trust the Gospel of John, Acts of John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelations.

Discuss.

Are you saying that John the Baptist(who was beheaded) was John of Patmos?
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AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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5/1/2013 6:28:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 5:49:44 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
2- It contains good tidings of the near coming of the next prophet that I believe is Mohamed peace be upon him that did testify the truth about Jesus peace be upon him, and gave more details on things "yet to come".

I don't recall the Gospel of John ever mentioning another prophet.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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5/1/2013 6:29:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 6:27:55 AM, Pennington wrote:
At 5/1/2013 2:18:31 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
The Beloved Disciple, the Man Sent From God, the Servant of God, and the Second Moses was truly the greatest of the Apostles. He defended the true Gospel, and as such we can only trust the Gospel of John, Acts of John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelations.

Discuss.

Are you saying that John the Baptist(who was beheaded) was John of Patmos?

No.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
jharry
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5/1/2013 8:15:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 6:26:09 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
Who is the person speaking here:

"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life,[a] and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.

9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own,[b] and his own people[c] did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, "He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me."") 16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.[d] 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God,[e] who is at the Father's side,[f] he has made him known."

If it's the Gospel writer then it's his own understanding that he has put, and the writer is not John the Baptist himself. I usually ignore the comments, and take the speech alone unfortunately simply because I don't know who wrote them.

The problem with the Bible is we can always give an answer invalidate part of it or all of it all because of that authenticity problem, and believe me it hurts me more than you.

The Qur'an must be viewed differently the the Bible. Authenticity isn't as big of an issue with Holy Scripture. Canon was established based on Tradition, if the writings lined up with what had been handed down Apostle to Priest/Elder/Bishop then is can be trusted.

See Jesus promised that Hell would never prevail against His Church that He build on St. Peter. After that it comes down to Faith.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
annanicole
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5/1/2013 8:20:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 2:18:31 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
The Beloved Disciple, the Man Sent From God, the Servant of God, and the Second Moses was truly the greatest of the Apostles. He defended the true Gospel, and as such we can only trust the Gospel of John, Acts of John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelations.

Discuss.

I'd have thought you would have a preference for 1st and 2nd Peter. Anyway, all four gospel accounts are to be taken together. John, who presumably wrote much later than the other three, left out much material covered by the others - and filled in the blanks with information left out by the other three. John for instance only gives a tangential (and passing) reference to the Commission; however, by taking all four together, we can get a pretty good idea of what all was involved in the so-called Great Commission.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Pwner
Posts: 92
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5/1/2013 8:24:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 8:15:35 AM, jharry wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:26:09 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
Who is the person speaking here:

"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life,[a] and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.

9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own,[b] and his own people[c] did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, "He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me."") 16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.[d] 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God,[e] who is at the Father's side,[f] he has made him known."

If it's the Gospel writer then it's his own understanding that he has put, and the writer is not John the Baptist himself. I usually ignore the comments, and take the speech alone unfortunately simply because I don't know who wrote them.

The problem with the Bible is we can always give an answer invalidate part of it or all of it all because of that authenticity problem, and believe me it hurts me more than you.

The Qur'an must be viewed differently the the Bible. Authenticity isn't as big of an issue with Holy Scripture. Canon was established based on Tradition, if the writings lined up with what had been handed down Apostle to Priest/Elder/Bishop then is can be trusted.

See Jesus promised that Hell would never prevail against His Church that He build on St. Peter. After that it comes down to Faith.

I don't think a fair application of any reasonable historical method gets us anything close to Jesus establishing a 'Church' on any of his followers.
jharry
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5/1/2013 8:37:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 8:24:27 AM, Pwner wrote:
At 5/1/2013 8:15:35 AM, jharry wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:26:09 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
Who is the person speaking here:

"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life,[a] and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.

9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own,[b] and his own people[c] did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, "He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me."") 16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.[d] 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God,[e] who is at the Father's side,[f] he has made him known."

If it's the Gospel writer then it's his own understanding that he has put, and the writer is not John the Baptist himself. I usually ignore the comments, and take the speech alone unfortunately simply because I don't know who wrote them.

The problem with the Bible is we can always give an answer invalidate part of it or all of it all because of that authenticity problem, and believe me it hurts me more than you.

The Qur'an must be viewed differently the the Bible. Authenticity isn't as big of an issue with Holy Scripture. Canon was established based on Tradition, if the writings lined up with what had been handed down Apostle to Priest/Elder/Bishop then is can be trusted.

See Jesus promised that Hell would never prevail against His Church that He build on St. Peter. After that it comes down to Faith.

I don't think a fair application of any reasonable historical method gets us anything close to Jesus establishing a 'Church' on any of his followers.

I'm not sure what you are saying. Have you ever read anything from Christians after the epistles were written? Clement? Ignatius of Antioch?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Pwner
Posts: 92
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5/1/2013 9:17:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
John: I'm just saying that if we try to figure out whether Jesus really said he'd build his Church on Peter as the Gospel of Matthew suggests, it turns out there's just not enough evidence to say he did.

All we have is Matthew's testimony (later authors like Ignatius of Antioch got it from Matthew), and we don't know where he got his information from. It's actually quite bizarre that he's the only Gospel author that recorded this saying, especially if it was so ecclesiologically important.
jharry
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5/1/2013 9:22:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 9:17:51 AM, Pwner wrote:
John: I'm just saying that if we try to figure out whether Jesus really said he'd build his Church on Peter as the Gospel of Matthew suggests, it turns out there's just not enough evidence to say he did.

All we have is Matthew's testimony (later authors like Ignatius of Antioch got it from Matthew), and we don't know where he got his information from. It's actually quite bizarre that he's the only Gospel author that recorded this saying, especially if it was so ecclesiologically important.

What would you consider to be qualifying evidence?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Nur-Ab-Sal
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5/1/2013 9:42:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 4:36:39 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 5/1/2013 2:44:54 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
Obviously, John the Apostle is the most important.

one does not exist without the other.

He's the most important apostle. He's the prime Apostle. It's obvious throughout the Bible. Why else would the Canon only include books referenced by him or written by him?
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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5/1/2013 10:55:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
jharry

That's what I meant, if you can't know what Jesus exactly said, peace be upon him, and what were exactly his traditions that he did ( not that were innovated after him). How can you defend Christianity. When you do choose to be a catholic and not a protestant it will be based on what ? only on opinions , because no one has the true message it seems and that's the sad part. the only fact that the gospels contradict one another in just one thing is a warning.

In Islam we have authentic Quran and authentic traditions of the prophet and we still struggle with innovations here and there that are due to people opinions and not based on holy scriptures.

Well that was just a point.
Pwner
Posts: 92
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5/1/2013 11:06:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 9:22:53 AM, jharry wrote:
At 5/1/2013 9:17:51 AM, Pwner wrote:
John: I'm just saying that if we try to figure out whether Jesus really said he'd build his Church on Peter as the Gospel of Matthew suggests, it turns out there's just not enough evidence to say he did.

All we have is Matthew's testimony (later authors like Ignatius of Antioch got it from Matthew), and we don't know where he got his information from. It's actually quite bizarre that he's the only Gospel author that recorded this saying, especially if it was so ecclesiologically important.


What would you consider to be qualifying evidence?

Well, historians have devised certain criteria to help us gauge the chances of a historical claim being true: its chances increasing with each criteria it fulfills. By far, the most important criterion is early multiple and independent attestation. Here multiple authors communicating at a date relatively close to the purported event, independently testify to its occurrence. The chances that the event didn't occur, given such attestation are quite low. When we apply these criteria to the claim in question, the results aren't encouraging: the Gospel of Matthew is the only text that mentions it. So, did Jesus say this? I don't know, maybe. But, I doubt it.
johnlubba
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5/1/2013 11:40:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 2:18:31 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
The Beloved Disciple, the Man Sent From God, the Servant of God, and the Second Moses was truly the greatest of the Apostles. He defended the true Gospel, and as such we can only trust the Gospel of John, Acts of John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelations.

Discuss.

The Gospels were not written by the apostles, most scholars in-fact believe all four Gospels were written by the same man. They believe this because of the similarities of the grammar..