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islam instructing 2 torture

banker
Posts: 1,370
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11/23/2009 9:10:52 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
The Qur'an:
Torture in this world:

Qur'an (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides..."

Qur'an (8:12) - "Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips off them."

Qur'an (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"

Torture in the next:

Qur'an (22:19-22) - "These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning." The punishment of those who merely disbelieve in Muhammad's claims about himself is described as being horrifically brutal in many other places as well, such as Qur'an 4:56, which says that they will face a continuous cycle of torture in which their skin will be burned off only to be replaced by new skin.

How Allah feels about non-Muslims naturally determines the attitude of devout Muslims. In the Qur'an, Muhammad explicitly uses Allah's hatred of unbelievers to motivate his people to Jihad:

Qur'an (9:73): "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end."

From the Hadith:

Muslim (16:4131) - They were caught and brought to him (the Holy Prophet). He commanded about them, and (thus) their hands and feet were cut off and their eyes were gouged and then they were thrown in the sun, until they died. Muhammad had two killers put to death, not in the way of "an eye-for-an-eye," but in a more agonizing manner.

Muslim (17:4196) - A married man confesses that he has adultery (four times, as required). Muhammad orders him planted in the ground and pelted with stones. According to the passage, the first several stones caused such pain that he tried to escape and was dragged back.

Ibn Ishaq 436 - When Muhammad wished to attack the Meccan army at Badr, his men captured two slaves who were carrying water for the caravans and brought them into his presence. They were interrogated under torture as Muhammad stood praying: "…they brought them along and questioned them while the apostle was standing praying… The people were dismayed at their report…and so they beat them. When they were beaten soundly…"

Ibn Ishaq 734 - When Muhammad's favorite wife Aisha was accused of adultery, he launched an investigation that included the brutal interrogation of a female slave: "So the apostle called Burayra to ask her, and Ali got up and gave her a violent beating, saying "'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"

Ibn Ishaq 764 - After amassing a powerful army, Muhammad sent his forces to take the peaceful farming community of Khaybar by surprise. In the aftermath, he was dissatisfied with the amount of plunder and felt that the town's treasurer, Kinana, might be holding out on him. He had the man brought to him:

When he [Muhammad] asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr bin al-Awwam, "Torture him until you extract what he has." So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad bin Maslama and he struck off his head."

(As a happy side note to the story – Kinana's untimely death left a beautiful young widow named Saffiya, whom Muhammad was then able to "marry").

Additional Notes:

The life of Muhammad teaches that torture is sanctioned in cases of interrogation. The prophet of Islam did not stop his people from beating and abusing individuals in his presence when information was needed, whether it concerned a matter of sexual impropriety or the location of wealth that could be looted. In at least one case of the latter, he is noted to have directly ordered the torture.

Torture is also allowed when putting people to death. Rather than prescribing quick execution of captives, there were times in which Muhammad ordered his men to make a victim's death as slow and agonizing as possible. In one case, Muhammad's men literally pulled apart the body of an elderly woman named Umm Qirfa by tying her limbs to camels then sent in opposite directions (Ibn Ishaq 980).

One of the most influential Shi'a religious leaders in Iran recently extended the validity of torture to the practice of rape of prisoners, as long as it is in defense of Islam. Mesbah-Yazdi said that it was advisable for the rapist to "perform a ritual washing first and say prayers while raping the prisoner."

Mesbah-Yazdi went on to add that "If the judgment for the [female] prisoner is execution, then rape before execution brings the interrogator a spiritual reward equivalent to making the mandated Haj pilgrimage [to Mecca], but if there is no execution decreed, then the reward would be equivalent to making a pilgrimage to [the Shi'ite holy city of] Karbala."

According to the cleric, "If the prisoner is female, it is permissible to rape through the vagina or anus." When asked if the rape of men and young boy was considered sodomy, he said, "No, because it is not consensual."

Muslim apologists often tell a different story in the West, where general phrases are designed to strategically project the impression that they oppose torture in and of itself, thus attracting the support of a broader coalition. (CAIR's short-lived 2006 "Campaign against Torture" is one of the best examples of this). The scope of their efforts, however, rarely extend beyond condemning Western countries in general (and the US in particular). Sympathies are also tellingly limited to the alleged treatment of Muslim terror detainees.

In fact, these organizations have very little to say about ending the less ambiguous and far more brutal human rights violations practiced by Muslim governments, even though the victims there are usually Muslim as well (such as the cleric Mesbah-Yazdi's unfortunate victims of rape). The goal of these "anti-torture" campaigns is not an end to torture, but rather an attempt to capture the moral high ground on a controversial issue by exploiting Western attitudes - with no regard for the victims of true torture.

In summary, Islam is not fundamentally opposed to torture in certain circumstances, as long as it is the Muslim party applying it. This is a good example of the many common double standards within the religion that must be recognized and brought out in the open to facilitate an honest dialogue with Islam.

(Note: There are Muslim individuals who sincerely object to torture on principle. So, it would not be right to make assumptions about anyone's view on this subject (or any other) based on their nominal religious affiliation).
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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11/23/2009 5:16:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Only extremists such as Al-Qaeda and the Taliban support such principles, but they're not in any way real Muslims so you lose. Why don't you just give up? Nobody cares about your copy/paste from obviously biased sources. Oh, and not to mention the Qur'anic verses put completely out of context.
banker
Posts: 1,370
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11/25/2009 1:49:18 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/23/2009 5:16:48 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Only extremists such as Al-Qaeda and the Taliban support such principles, but they're not in any way real Muslims so you lose.
thanks for giving us your view i respect you very much for that.!!

it showes that we have muslims against this,i was sure that this is your believe!!

you are a nice person and your bieng muslim showes that islam is realy not that bad

but we need to hear more from you!! extreamists need to hear you too.!!

Why don't you just give up? Nobody cares about your copy/paste from obviously biased sources.
well the events like teror attacks and jihad acts are creating lots of bias. we cant dismiss news.!!

but i agree using parts of quran is not appropriate..!!

Oh, and not to mention the Qur'anic verses put completely out of context.
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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11/25/2009 1:57:53 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I would say the Qur'an is a reliable source as it is where Muslims get their ideas from or which ideas terrorists are going against in this case...
BellumQuodPacis
Posts: 1,646
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11/25/2009 6:10:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Agreed. Torture in most cases is actually beneficial. as a matter of fact, the US government uses this to obtain information and use this info to protect the general public. So nice job promoting democracy Banker.
leet4A1
Posts: 1,986
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11/25/2009 6:16:03 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/25/2009 6:10:48 PM, BellumQuodPacis wrote:
Agreed. Torture in most cases is actually beneficial. as a matter of fact, the US government uses this to obtain information and use this info to protect the general public. So nice job promoting democracy Banker.

This is your argument in favor of torture? When the US government uses it it's ok?
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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11/25/2009 6:29:17 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/25/2009 6:16:03 PM, leet4A1 wrote:
At 11/25/2009 6:10:48 PM, BellumQuodPacis wrote:
Agreed. Torture in most cases is actually beneficial. as a matter of fact, the US government uses this to obtain information and use this info to protect the general public. So nice job promoting democracy Banker.

This is your argument in favor of torture? When the US government uses it it's ok?

I think that his argument is that torture is used against known terrorists to extract information which will prevent further attacks, thereby preserving national security, and maintaining public safety.
BellumQuodPacis
Posts: 1,646
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11/25/2009 6:33:46 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/25/2009 6:29:17 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 11/25/2009 6:16:03 PM, leet4A1 wrote:
At 11/25/2009 6:10:48 PM, BellumQuodPacis wrote:
Agreed. Torture in most cases is actually beneficial. as a matter of fact, the US government uses this to obtain information and use this info to protect the general public. So nice job promoting democracy Banker.

This is your argument in favor of torture? When the US government uses it it's ok?

I think that his argument is that torture is used against known terrorists to extract information which will prevent further attacks, thereby preserving national security, and maintaining public safety.

Indeed. Thank you Cody
leet4A1
Posts: 1,986
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11/25/2009 6:47:24 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/25/2009 6:33:46 PM, BellumQuodPacis wrote:
At 11/25/2009 6:29:17 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 11/25/2009 6:16:03 PM, leet4A1 wrote:
At 11/25/2009 6:10:48 PM, BellumQuodPacis wrote:
Agreed. Torture in most cases is actually beneficial. as a matter of fact, the US government uses this to obtain information and use this info to protect the general public. So nice job promoting democracy Banker.

This is your argument in favor of torture? When the US government uses it it's ok?

I think that his argument is that torture is used against known terrorists to extract information which will prevent further attacks, thereby preserving national security, and maintaining public safety.

Indeed. Thank you Cody

It is often used against those who aren't known terrorists. It is also quite ineffective at extracting information.

Also, ever heard of the Geneva Conventions? The United States has ratified the UN's Convention Against Torture and the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions. These are basically laws which state that prisoners of war may not be tortured for ANY reason. Donald Rumsfeld "okaying" the torture of prisoners of war classifies him and the torturers as war criminals. They will, of course, never be held to justice because, well, it's America. I feel like reading some Noam Chomsky right now. :D

For more on the basic rights of prisoners of war, read this article, mostly the bottom:

http://en.wikipedia.org...
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
banker
Posts: 1,370
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11/26/2009 5:15:04 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Leet4a1 thanks for your great post

I was wondering how you will reply to them ..
They where very evasive since the quran is talking about infidels..!
Is it realy so sexy to torture one not sharing your believe?
They said that we tortured terorists.!
Is one not sharing their believe a terorist?
Moreover all the talk on how we torture terorists is only accusations and is not true,and we prosecuted our people in abu garib for doing to terorists what allah instructs to do for us..!

That's beyond me..
Why in the world will some glorify torture.?
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable