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Why I became a Methodist (again)

Nidhogg
Posts: 503
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5/1/2013 6:38:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
To be as short as possible, I'm Bisexual and I just so happened to arrive at my local Catholic church as they were passing out pamphlets on the dangers of being LGBT. This, combined with other personal factors, drove me to leave the Catholic Church.

Catholics, how do you respond? Do you think this is unfair and/or misrepresentative of Catholicism? Does anyone else have an experience similar to this?

Note: No, I am not considering becoming an atheist. Please GTFO and leave this to us Christians to dispute. I only want a fair perspective.
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YYW
Posts: 36,282
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5/1/2013 6:44:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 6:38:21 PM, Nidhogg wrote:
To be as short as possible, I'm Bisexual and I just so happened to arrive at my local Catholic church as they were passing out pamphlets on the dangers of being LGBT. This, combined with other personal factors, drove me to leave the Catholic Church.

Catholics, how do you respond? Do you think this is unfair and/or misrepresentative of Catholicism? Does anyone else have an experience similar to this?

Note: No, I am not considering becoming an atheist. Please GTFO and leave this to us Christians to dispute. I only want a fair perspective.

My relationship with the church is precarious; that established though, there are lots of protestant and catholic churches which -even if they doctrinally oppose gay marriage- are welcoming and accepting of those who are something other than hetero.

I think that in the end, the Catholic church will change its stance though. Until (I believe) 1972 the Vatical strongly opposed human rights and religious freedom. That changed, obviously. The Church has changed its positions on lots of things though; sometimes because there was genuine progression to new ideals, sometimes because their doctrinal reform was merely expedient.
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Magic8000
Posts: 975
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5/1/2013 6:54:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Become an atheist.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
annanicole
Posts: 19,784
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5/1/2013 7:04:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Does the New Testament condemn homosexual behavior? If not, the Methodist church is right on that point. If so, the Roman Catholic church is right on that point.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Nidhogg
Posts: 503
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5/1/2013 7:08:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 6:54:46 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
Become an atheist.

-_- Great job
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emospongebob527
Posts: 790
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5/1/2013 7:15:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 6:54:46 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
Become an atheist.
"not to toot my own horn (it aint need no tooin if u know what im saying), but my writings on "viciousness: the one true viture (fancy spelling for virtue)" and my poem "A poem I wrote about DDO" put me in a class of my damn own. im just an UNRECONGIZED geniuse" -bananafana
emospongebob527
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5/1/2013 7:19:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 7:15:38 PM, emospongebob527 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:54:46 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
Become a new atheist. (New Atheism) http://en.wikipedia.org...
"not to toot my own horn (it aint need no tooin if u know what im saying), but my writings on "viciousness: the one true viture (fancy spelling for virtue)" and my poem "A poem I wrote about DDO" put me in a class of my damn own. im just an UNRECONGIZED geniuse" -bananafana
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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5/1/2013 7:22:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
That's interesting; many Catholics I know seem much more open to LGBT people than many Protestants I know. I'm aware that that is anecdotal and probably confined to a "personal" level - whereas the official institution is still opposed to it.

I don't personally have any experience with this because while the church I go to has the official stance of "homosexual behavior as sin" my pastor works pretty heavily in the LGBT community. I haven't noticed anything too overtly hostile although the congregation seems pretty evenly split between "homosexual behavior is not necessarily a sin" and "homosexual behavior is necessarily sin". I've been considering leaving to find a more open LGBT church but I'm still hoping my pastor pulls a Steve Chalke. *

*http://blog.christianitytoday.com...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Nidhogg
Posts: 503
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5/1/2013 7:25:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 7:19:39 PM, emospongebob527 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 7:15:38 PM, emospongebob527 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:54:46 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
Become a new atheist. (New Atheism) http://en.wikipedia.org...

Wow, even worse
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Nidhogg
Posts: 503
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5/1/2013 7:29:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 7:22:12 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
That's interesting; many Catholics I know seem much more open to LGBT people than many Protestants I know. I'm aware that that is anecdotal and probably confined to a "personal" level - whereas the official institution is still opposed to it.

I don't personally have any experience with this because while the church I go to has the official stance of "homosexual behavior as sin" my pastor works pretty heavily in the LGBT community. I haven't noticed anything too overtly hostile although the congregation seems pretty evenly split between "homosexual behavior is not necessarily a sin" and "homosexual behavior is necessarily sin". I've been considering leaving to find a more open LGBT church but I'm still hoping my pastor pulls a Steve Chalke. *

*http://blog.christianitytoday.com...

I've found that my friends are accepting, but until the Church changes its stance I won't rejoin. One of my close Catholic friends who I may or may not be crushing on said he would never support gays. Maybe it's just a community thing, I don't know.
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emospongebob527
Posts: 790
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5/1/2013 7:30:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 7:25:56 PM, Nidhogg wrote:
At 5/1/2013 7:19:39 PM, emospongebob527 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 7:15:38 PM, emospongebob527 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:54:46 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
Become a new atheist. (New Atheism) http://en.wikipedia.org...

Wow, even worse

I still like you. 'Intolerence Used to Combat Ignorance' is my message.
"not to toot my own horn (it aint need no tooin if u know what im saying), but my writings on "viciousness: the one true viture (fancy spelling for virtue)" and my poem "A poem I wrote about DDO" put me in a class of my damn own. im just an UNRECONGIZED geniuse" -bananafana
Dogknox
Posts: 5,051
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5/1/2013 8:42:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Nidhogg You said.. I've found that my friends are accepting, but until the Church changes its stance I won't rejoin. One of my close Catholic friends who I may or may not be crushing on said he would never support gays. Maybe it's just a community thing, I don't know.

Nidhogg I think you must change your stance... Or you will always find excuse for placing blame on anyone but yourself!

Nidhogg You started this thread with this.. arrive at my local Catholic church as they were passing out pamphlets on the dangers of being LGBT.
So because of these Pamphlets you turned your back on Jesus!?? Is this it???
Are you saying the Catholic Church is a kind of CLUB, a fellowship, a social gathering place you can afford to be without?? Is this it!?!?

Nidhogg Are you saying the Pamphlets were not true??
Are you saying there should be no concern for LGBT??
Are you saying the Pamphlets represent your feeling??!
Are you saying LGBT is not a DANGER!??
Are you saying the Catholic Church should NOT be concerned with LGBT!?

Then you ask.. Catholics, how do you respond? Do you think this is unfair and/or misrepresentation of Catholicism? Does anyone else have an experience similar to this?

I point out.. To misrepresent Catholicism you must be a HERETIC!! You MUST be a TEACHER with the AUTHORITY to teach.. Then as you teach, you teach UNSCRIPURAL teaching!

If I put a Pamphlet under your windshield wiper on; "The evils of Abortion" would this be misrepresent Catholicism??! Would the pamphlet be pointing directly at you and say; "Nidhogg You are an "Abortionist"!!?

Clearly you have lumped all of your GUILT onto the Catholic Church for pointing out SINS that separate people from God!

Dogknox
annanicole
Posts: 19,784
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5/1/2013 9:03:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Nidhogg: "but until the Church changes its stance I won't rejoin."

Anna: Just wait around. They will. At one time, they wouldn't allow instrumental music in worship because the New Testament doesn't permit it. Now they do. At one time, the pope was not considered infallible. Now he is. They blushingly claim that they "never change": usually that claim is made about the time they make another change.

By the way, nobody ever "joined" the church that Jesus Christ built. One can't join it. One is added to it or translated into it - always passive - at the instant one is saved. If you are saved, you are a member of the church of Christ. There's no need in joining up with something else.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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5/1/2013 9:14:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 6:38:21 PM, Nidhogg wrote:
To be as short as possible, I'm Bisexual and I just so happened to arrive at my local Catholic church as they were passing out pamphlets on the dangers of being LGBT. This, combined with other personal factors, drove me to leave the Catholic Church.

Catholics, how do you respond? Do you think this is unfair and/or misrepresentative of Catholicism? Does anyone else have an experience similar to this?

Note: No, I am not considering becoming an atheist. Please GTFO and leave this to us Christians to dispute. I only want a fair perspective.

I would say the church cannot look the other way. Not because you should be condemned but because they must be consistent. How can you overcome the language of the Bible that talks about such things? Because people sin does not mean they will go to hell if they repent and see their sin but willingly living in it as if nothing is wrong is another case indeed. Same-sex or Bi-sexual oriented people are not to blame because they have these cravings and give into them. They are to blame by not following the example of the Word and recognizing their sin and repenting for it. They think God wants them and accepts them in being that way, untrue. God considers it unnatural and vile.
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SovereignDream
Posts: 1,119
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5/1/2013 9:56:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 6:44:53 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:38:21 PM, Nidhogg wrote:
To be as short as possible, I'm Bisexual and I just so happened to arrive at my local Catholic church as they were passing out pamphlets on the dangers of being LGBT. This, combined with other personal factors, drove me to leave the Catholic Church.

Catholics, how do you respond? Do you think this is unfair and/or misrepresentative of Catholicism? Does anyone else have an experience similar to this?

Note: No, I am not considering becoming an atheist. Please GTFO and leave this to us Christians to dispute. I only want a fair perspective.

My relationship with the church is precarious; that established though, there are lots of protestant and catholic churches which -even if they doctrinally oppose gay marriage- are welcoming and accepting of those who are something other than hetero.

I think that in the end, the Catholic church will change its stance though. Until (I believe) 1972 the Vatical strongly opposed human rights and religious freedom. That changed, obviously. The Church has changed its positions on lots of things though; sometimes because there was genuine progression to new ideals, sometimes because their doctrinal reform was merely expedient.

People saying or hoping that the Catholic Church will "change its stance" on homosexuality really shows that they are utterly clueless to the philosophical foundations of Catholic thought. As you may or may not be aware, the Catholic Church endorses a Thomistic-Aristotelian Natural Law theory which (among other things) condemns homosexuality as sinful and lays the foundation for the sexual morality paradigm the Church endorses. So to ask that the Catholic Church "change its stance" on the matter of the immorality of homosexual acts and the immorality and metaphysical absurdness of same-sex "marriage" is to do nothing short of asking the Church to abandon the philosophical foundation upon which it was founded.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,051
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5/1/2013 10:34:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 9:56:09 PM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:44:53 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:38:21 PM, Nidhogg wrote:
To be as short as possible, I'm Bisexual and I just so happened to arrive at my local Catholic church as they were passing out pamphlets on the dangers of being LGBT. This, combined with other personal factors, drove me to leave the Catholic Church.

Catholics, how do you respond? Do you think this is unfair and/or misrepresentative of Catholicism? Does anyone else have an experience similar to this?

Note: No, I am not considering becoming an atheist. Please GTFO and leave this to us Christians to dispute. I only want a fair perspective.

My relationship with the church is precarious; that established though, there are lots of protestant and catholic churches which -even if they doctrinally oppose gay marriage- are welcoming and accepting of those who are something other than hetero.

I think that in the end, the Catholic church will change its stance though. Until (I believe) 1972 the Vatical strongly opposed human rights and religious freedom. That changed, obviously. The Church has changed its positions on lots of things though; sometimes because there was genuine progression to new ideals, sometimes because their doctrinal reform was merely expedient.

People saying or hoping that the Catholic Church will "change its stance" on homosexuality really shows that they are utterly clueless to the philosophical foundations of Catholic thought. As you may or may not be aware, the Catholic Church endorses a Thomistic-Aristotelian Natural Law theory which (among other things) condemns homosexuality as sinful and lays the foundation for the sexual morality paradigm the Church endorses. So to ask that the Catholic Church "change its stance" on the matter of the immorality of homosexual acts and the immorality and metaphysical absurdness of same-sex "marriage" is to do nothing short of asking the Church to abandon the philosophical foundation upon which it was founded.

SovereignDream rah rah "Right on"!

1 Timothy 1:9
We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers"and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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5/1/2013 10:35:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 9:56:09 PM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:44:53 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:38:21 PM, Nidhogg wrote:
To be as short as possible, I'm Bisexual and I just so happened to arrive at my local Catholic church as they were passing out pamphlets on the dangers of being LGBT. This, combined with other personal factors, drove me to leave the Catholic Church.

Catholics, how do you respond? Do you think this is unfair and/or misrepresentative of Catholicism? Does anyone else have an experience similar to this?

Note: No, I am not considering becoming an atheist. Please GTFO and leave this to us Christians to dispute. I only want a fair perspective.

My relationship with the church is precarious; that established though, there are lots of protestant and catholic churches which -even if they doctrinally oppose gay marriage- are welcoming and accepting of those who are something other than hetero.

I think that in the end, the Catholic church will change its stance though. Until (I believe) 1972 the Vatical strongly opposed human rights and religious freedom. That changed, obviously. The Church has changed its positions on lots of things though; sometimes because there was genuine progression to new ideals, sometimes because their doctrinal reform was merely expedient.

People saying or hoping that the Catholic Church will "change its stance" on homosexuality really shows that they are utterly clueless to the philosophical foundations of Catholic thought. As you may or may not be aware, the Catholic Church endorses a Thomistic-Aristotelian Natural Law theory which (among other things) condemns homosexuality as sinful and lays the foundation for the sexual morality paradigm the Church endorses. So to ask that the Catholic Church "change its stance" on the matter of the immorality of homosexual acts and the immorality and metaphysical absurdness of same-sex "marriage" is to do nothing short of asking the Church to abandon the philosophical foundation upon which it was founded.

I agree. To go further, why don't we just rewrite the Bible to fit our modern lifestyles? Let's take away all evidence of the scriptures and live anyway we desire.
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annanicole
Posts: 19,784
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5/1/2013 10:57:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Pennington: "I would say the church cannot look the other way. Not because you should be condemned but because they must be consistent. How can you overcome the language of the Bible that talks about such things?"

Anna: Because, as the papists have proven time and time again, the "language of the Bible" is not their primary concern. The Bible condemns drunkenness. Very well. The Catholic Church operates DISTILLERIES! Ain't that sweet? The Bible condemns gambling? Guess who runs the Bingo parlors?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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5/1/2013 11:06:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 9:56:09 PM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:44:53 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:38:21 PM, Nidhogg wrote:
To be as short as possible, I'm Bisexual and I just so happened to arrive at my local Catholic church as they were passing out pamphlets on the dangers of being LGBT. This, combined with other personal factors, drove me to leave the Catholic Church.

Catholics, how do you respond? Do you think this is unfair and/or misrepresentative of Catholicism? Does anyone else have an experience similar to this?

Note: No, I am not considering becoming an atheist. Please GTFO and leave this to us Christians to dispute. I only want a fair perspective.

My relationship with the church is precarious; that established though, there are lots of protestant and catholic churches which -even if they doctrinally oppose gay marriage- are welcoming and accepting of those who are something other than hetero.

I think that in the end, the Catholic church will change its stance though. Until (I believe) 1972 the Vatical strongly opposed human rights and religious freedom. That changed, obviously. The Church has changed its positions on lots of things though; sometimes because there was genuine progression to new ideals, sometimes because their doctrinal reform was merely expedient.

People saying or hoping that the Catholic Church will "change its stance" on homosexuality really shows that they are utterly clueless to the philosophical foundations of Catholic thought. As you may or may not be aware, the Catholic Church endorses a Thomistic-Aristotelian Natural Law theory which (among other things) condemns homosexuality as sinful and lays the foundation for the sexual morality paradigm the Church endorses. So to ask that the Catholic Church "change its stance" on the matter of the immorality of homosexual acts and the immorality and metaphysical absurdness of same-sex "marriage" is to do nothing short of asking the Church to abandon the philosophical foundation upon which it was founded.

You're aware that there were natural law defenses of slavery, yeah?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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5/2/2013 12:50:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 11:06:01 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/1/2013 9:56:09 PM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:44:53 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:38:21 PM, Nidhogg wrote:
To be as short as possible, I'm Bisexual and I just so happened to arrive at my local Catholic church as they were passing out pamphlets on the dangers of being LGBT. This, combined with other personal factors, drove me to leave the Catholic Church.

Catholics, how do you respond? Do you think this is unfair and/or misrepresentative of Catholicism? Does anyone else have an experience similar to this?

Note: No, I am not considering becoming an atheist. Please GTFO and leave this to us Christians to dispute. I only want a fair perspective.

My relationship with the church is precarious; that established though, there are lots of protestant and catholic churches which -even if they doctrinally oppose gay marriage- are welcoming and accepting of those who are something other than hetero.

I think that in the end, the Catholic church will change its stance though. Until (I believe) 1972 the Vatical strongly opposed human rights and religious freedom. That changed, obviously. The Church has changed its positions on lots of things though; sometimes because there was genuine progression to new ideals, sometimes because their doctrinal reform was merely expedient.

People saying or hoping that the Catholic Church will "change its stance" on homosexuality really shows that they are utterly clueless to the philosophical foundations of Catholic thought. As you may or may not be aware, the Catholic Church endorses a Thomistic-Aristotelian Natural Law theory which (among other things) condemns homosexuality as sinful and lays the foundation for the sexual morality paradigm the Church endorses. So to ask that the Catholic Church "change its stance" on the matter of the immorality of homosexual acts and the immorality and metaphysical absurdness of same-sex "marriage" is to do nothing short of asking the Church to abandon the philosophical foundation upon which it was founded.

You're aware that there were natural law defenses of slavery, yeah?

He's obviously not, among so many other things; such is life. The problem with modern conservative christians is that they are taught something as if it is a truth beyond reproach, never realizing that theirs is an inherently fallible source (i.e. while the text may be over and above, the reader of the text is hardly the same). It's nothing short of intellectual jingoism, but that's nothing new. The way we interpret the bible and the theological arguments which rise to any level of considerable prominence both have changed profoundly over time, and whether Pennington or SovereignDream choose to recognize that misses the point. The teachers will change, and the students will too. It will probably take a generation or more -but "a change is gonna' come" one way or another.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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5/2/2013 12:51:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 10:34:20 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 5/1/2013 9:56:09 PM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:44:53 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:38:21 PM, Nidhogg wrote:
To be as short as possible, I'm Bisexual and I just so happened to arrive at my local Catholic church as they were passing out pamphlets on the dangers of being LGBT. This, combined with other personal factors, drove me to leave the Catholic Church.

Catholics, how do you respond? Do you think this is unfair and/or misrepresentative of Catholicism? Does anyone else have an experience similar to this?

Note: No, I am not considering becoming an atheist. Please GTFO and leave this to us Christians to dispute. I only want a fair perspective.

My relationship with the church is precarious; that established though, there are lots of protestant and catholic churches which -even if they doctrinally oppose gay marriage- are welcoming and accepting of those who are something other than hetero.

I think that in the end, the Catholic church will change its stance though. Until (I believe) 1972 the Vatical strongly opposed human rights and religious freedom. That changed, obviously. The Church has changed its positions on lots of things though; sometimes because there was genuine progression to new ideals, sometimes because their doctrinal reform was merely expedient.

People saying or hoping that the Catholic Church will "change its stance" on homosexuality really shows that they are utterly clueless to the philosophical foundations of Catholic thought. As you may or may not be aware, the Catholic Church endorses a Thomistic-Aristotelian Natural Law theory which (among other things) condemns homosexuality as sinful and lays the foundation for the sexual morality paradigm the Church endorses. So to ask that the Catholic Church "change its stance" on the matter of the immorality of homosexual acts and the immorality and metaphysical absurdness of same-sex "marriage" is to do nothing short of asking the Church to abandon the philosophical foundation upon which it was founded.

SovereignDream rah rah "Right on"!

1 Timothy 1:9
We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers"and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men

Judge not lest ye be judged.
Tsar of DDO
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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5/2/2013 1:01:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 6:38:21 PM, Nidhogg wrote:
Catholics, how do you respond? Do you think this is unfair and/or misrepresentative of Catholicism?

Not misrepresentative, the Roman Catholic Church opposes homosexual acts.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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5/2/2013 1:07:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 9:56:09 PM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:44:53 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:38:21 PM, Nidhogg wrote:
To be as short as possible, I'm Bisexual and I just so happened to arrive at my local Catholic church as they were passing out pamphlets on the dangers of being LGBT. This, combined with other personal factors, drove me to leave the Catholic Church.

Catholics, how do you respond? Do you think this is unfair and/or misrepresentative of Catholicism? Does anyone else have an experience similar to this?

Note: No, I am not considering becoming an atheist. Please GTFO and leave this to us Christians to dispute. I only want a fair perspective.

My relationship with the church is precarious; that established though, there are lots of protestant and catholic churches which -even if they doctrinally oppose gay marriage- are welcoming and accepting of those who are something other than hetero.

I think that in the end, the Catholic church will change its stance though. Until (I believe) 1972 the Vatical strongly opposed human rights and religious freedom. That changed, obviously. The Church has changed its positions on lots of things though; sometimes because there was genuine progression to new ideals, sometimes because their doctrinal reform was merely expedient.

People saying or hoping that the Catholic Church will "change its stance" on homosexuality really shows that they are utterly clueless to the philosophical foundations of Catholic thought. As you may or may not be aware, the Catholic Church endorses a Thomistic-Aristotelian Natural Law theory which (among other things) condemns homosexuality as sinful and lays the foundation for the sexual morality paradigm the Church endorses. So to ask that the Catholic Church "change its stance" on the matter of the immorality of homosexual acts and the immorality and metaphysical absurdness of same-sex "marriage" is to do nothing short of asking the Church to abandon the philosophical foundation upon which it was founded.

lol. I mean really... I laughed when I read that, but the only resounding sentiment I can hold after that soap box moment is pity, because firstly you truly believe what you're saying, secondly because of how weak that argument is and thirdly because of how clearly you fail to understand the context of what you claim to believe insomuch as how it has changed over time.

The single greatest threat to the church are dogmatic advocates of a judgmental message because the church now must compete with non-belief. Naturally, there are those -like you- who when faced with the prospect of change, will "dig" their foundational "heels" into the ground in stubborn obstruction because you are afraid that change from anything that you think you know to be true somehow compromises the integrity of your faith.

What's profoundly ironic about this position is that the Catholic church's traditions have evolved substantially (meaning that they have changed over time), its doctrinal positions have transitioned in a gradual ebb and flow, but over the course of more than a millennia have altered even more substantially (meaning that they have changed over time) and even the very nature and composition of the church has changed. The church has adapted and endured, and -even though it has oft been done with reluctance- it has CHANGED. It has changed in the past, it will change again -for good or otherwise.

I don't really care to get into a big discussion about this with you because whether you accept the fact that the church has changed before will not change the fact that it has. Whether you accept or not that the church will eventually change its stance on homosexuality (and I suspect too, even birth control), will not change the fact that it will. I'm sure that makes you very uncomfortable, but it shouldn't.

Peace out.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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5/2/2013 1:09:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 1:01:31 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:38:21 PM, Nidhogg wrote:
Catholics, how do you respond? Do you think this is unfair and/or misrepresentative of Catholicism?

Not misrepresentative, the Roman Catholic Church opposes homosexual acts.

When you say "the church" do you mean its leadership or partitioners? If the leadership, on what level? Obviously the Vatican says one thing, but many others have different interpretations. Is it your claim that one is right, the other is wrong? If so, on what basis (your own powers of theological interpretation, I suspect)? Really? How curious... I'm sure those who disagree with you would say the same thing.
Tsar of DDO
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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5/2/2013 1:28:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 12:50:02 AM, YYW wrote:
At 5/1/2013 11:06:01 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/1/2013 9:56:09 PM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:44:53 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:38:21 PM, Nidhogg wrote:
To be as short as possible, I'm Bisexual and I just so happened to arrive at my local Catholic church as they were passing out pamphlets on the dangers of being LGBT. This, combined with other personal factors, drove me to leave the Catholic Church.

Catholics, how do you respond? Do you think this is unfair and/or misrepresentative of Catholicism? Does anyone else have an experience similar to this?

Note: No, I am not considering becoming an atheist. Please GTFO and leave this to us Christians to dispute. I only want a fair perspective.

My relationship with the church is precarious; that established though, there are lots of protestant and catholic churches which -even if they doctrinally oppose gay marriage- are welcoming and accepting of those who are something other than hetero.

I think that in the end, the Catholic church will change its stance though. Until (I believe) 1972 the Vatical strongly opposed human rights and religious freedom. That changed, obviously. The Church has changed its positions on lots of things though; sometimes because there was genuine progression to new ideals, sometimes because their doctrinal reform was merely expedient.

People saying or hoping that the Catholic Church will "change its stance" on homosexuality really shows that they are utterly clueless to the philosophical foundations of Catholic thought. As you may or may not be aware, the Catholic Church endorses a Thomistic-Aristotelian Natural Law theory which (among other things) condemns homosexuality as sinful and lays the foundation for the sexual morality paradigm the Church endorses. So to ask that the Catholic Church "change its stance" on the matter of the immorality of homosexual acts and the immorality and metaphysical absurdness of same-sex "marriage" is to do nothing short of asking the Church to abandon the philosophical foundation upon which it was founded.

You're aware that there were natural law defenses of slavery, yeah?

He's obviously not, among so many other things; such is life. The problem with modern conservative christians is that they are taught something as if it is a truth beyond reproach, never realizing that theirs is an inherently fallible source (i.e. while the text may be over and above, the reader of the text is hardly the same). It's nothing short of intellectual jingoism, but that's nothing new. The way we interpret the bible and the theological arguments which rise to any level of considerable prominence both have changed profoundly over time, and whether Pennington or SovereignDream choose to recognize that misses the point. The teachers will change, and the students will too. It will probably take a generation or more -but "a change is gonna' come" one way or another.

I LOVE THAT SONG! That is literally one of my favorite songs ever. Sam Cooke FTW!

*high five*
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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5/2/2013 1:31:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 1:28:41 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/2/2013 12:50:02 AM, YYW wrote:
At 5/1/2013 11:06:01 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/1/2013 9:56:09 PM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:44:53 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:38:21 PM, Nidhogg wrote:
To be as short as possible, I'm Bisexual and I just so happened to arrive at my local Catholic church as they were passing out pamphlets on the dangers of being LGBT. This, combined with other personal factors, drove me to leave the Catholic Church.

Catholics, how do you respond? Do you think this is unfair and/or misrepresentative of Catholicism? Does anyone else have an experience similar to this?

Note: No, I am not considering becoming an atheist. Please GTFO and leave this to us Christians to dispute. I only want a fair perspective.

My relationship with the church is precarious; that established though, there are lots of protestant and catholic churches which -even if they doctrinally oppose gay marriage- are welcoming and accepting of those who are something other than hetero.

I think that in the end, the Catholic church will change its stance though. Until (I believe) 1972 the Vatical strongly opposed human rights and religious freedom. That changed, obviously. The Church has changed its positions on lots of things though; sometimes because there was genuine progression to new ideals, sometimes because their doctrinal reform was merely expedient.

People saying or hoping that the Catholic Church will "change its stance" on homosexuality really shows that they are utterly clueless to the philosophical foundations of Catholic thought. As you may or may not be aware, the Catholic Church endorses a Thomistic-Aristotelian Natural Law theory which (among other things) condemns homosexuality as sinful and lays the foundation for the sexual morality paradigm the Church endorses. So to ask that the Catholic Church "change its stance" on the matter of the immorality of homosexual acts and the immorality and metaphysical absurdness of same-sex "marriage" is to do nothing short of asking the Church to abandon the philosophical foundation upon which it was founded.

You're aware that there were natural law defenses of slavery, yeah?

He's obviously not, among so many other things; such is life. The problem with modern conservative christians is that they are taught something as if it is a truth beyond reproach, never realizing that theirs is an inherently fallible source (i.e. while the text may be over and above, the reader of the text is hardly the same). It's nothing short of intellectual jingoism, but that's nothing new. The way we interpret the bible and the theological arguments which rise to any level of considerable prominence both have changed profoundly over time, and whether Pennington or SovereignDream choose to recognize that misses the point. The teachers will change, and the students will too. It will probably take a generation or more -but "a change is gonna' come" one way or another.

I LOVE THAT SONG! That is literally one of my favorite songs ever. Sam Cooke FTW!

*high five*



It is one of mine too. Sam Cooke is amazing... like indescribably amazing.
Tsar of DDO
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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5/2/2013 1:32:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 1:09:53 AM, YYW wrote:
At 5/2/2013 1:01:31 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:38:21 PM, Nidhogg wrote:
Catholics, how do you respond? Do you think this is unfair and/or misrepresentative of Catholicism?

Not misrepresentative, the Roman Catholic Church opposes homosexual acts.

When you say "the church" do you mean its leadership or partitioners?

I said the Roman Catholic Church, and of course I mean the Doctrine.

If the leadership, on what level? Obviously the Vatican says one thing, but many others have different interpretations. Is it your claim that one is right, the other is wrong? If so, on what basis (your own powers of theological interpretation, I suspect)? Really? How curious... I'm sure those who disagree with you would say the same thing.

Not the people, the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You can read it here: http://www.vatican.va...

That's usually where Catholics go to read the Church's Doctrine. Of course, it's where I go.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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5/2/2013 1:37:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 1:32:54 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 5/2/2013 1:09:53 AM, YYW wrote:
At 5/2/2013 1:01:31 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:38:21 PM, Nidhogg wrote:
Catholics, how do you respond? Do you think this is unfair and/or misrepresentative of Catholicism?

Not misrepresentative, the Roman Catholic Church opposes homosexual acts.

When you say "the church" do you mean its leadership or partitioners?

I said the Roman Catholic Church, and of course I mean the Doctrine.

So it is your contention that there is one true doctrine, that humans have figured everything about the bible out that there is to be figured out? All questions are answered? How interesting.... I think I've already dealt with that though. Let's see, shall we?

If the leadership, on what level? Obviously the Vatican says one thing, but many others have different interpretations. Is it your claim that one is right, the other is wrong? If so, on what basis (your own powers of theological interpretation, I suspect)? Really? How curious... I'm sure those who disagree with you would say the same thing.

Not the people, the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You can read it here: http://www.vatican.va...

That's usually where Catholics go to read the Church's Doctrine. Of course, it's where I go.

Here you have given me a little book, which is really no more than an abridged version of the bible with a few annotations. This is it? That is the final word? Humans got it right, invariably?
Tsar of DDO
KingDebater
Posts: 687
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5/2/2013 1:37:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 7:19:39 PM, emospongebob527 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 7:15:38 PM, emospongebob527 wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:54:46 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
Become a new atheist. (New Atheism) http://en.wikipedia.org...
NO.
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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5/2/2013 1:42:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 1:37:11 AM, YYW wrote:
At 5/2/2013 1:32:54 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 5/2/2013 1:09:53 AM, YYW wrote:
At 5/2/2013 1:01:31 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 5/1/2013 6:38:21 PM, Nidhogg wrote:
Catholics, how do you respond? Do you think this is unfair and/or misrepresentative of Catholicism?

Not misrepresentative, the Roman Catholic Church opposes homosexual acts.

When you say "the church" do you mean its leadership or partitioners?

I said the Roman Catholic Church, and of course I mean the Doctrine.

So it is your contention that there is one true doctrine, that humans have figured everything about the bible out that there is to be figured out? All questions are answered? How interesting.... I think I've already dealt with that though. Let's see, shall we?

I don't remember saying humans have figured everything out, and I apologise if you got that impression. Rather, the Church's Doctrine is infallible -- so what's there is right, though there could be more to it.

If the leadership, on what level? Obviously the Vatican says one thing, but many others have different interpretations. Is it your claim that one is right, the other is wrong? If so, on what basis (your own powers of theological interpretation, I suspect)? Really? How curious... I'm sure those who disagree with you would say the same thing.

Not the people, the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You can read it here: http://www.vatican.va...

That's usually where Catholics go to read the Church's Doctrine. Of course, it's where I go.

Here you have given me a little book, which is really no more than an abridged version of the bible with a few annotations. This is it? That is the final word? Humans got it right, invariably?

That's not an abridged version of the Bible. Are you serious?
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.