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Why did God creat evil?

FreeG
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5/5/2013 12:48:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Most of you are probably familiar with the Epicurean Paradox of the existence of evil:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

Epicurus was working on the assumption that 'God' was omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent, as is asserted by Christian tradition.

By 'evil' Epicurus does not mean evil in the sense of sinful, but morally reprehensible. Examples would be the rape and murder of children, painful death, humiliating poverty, injustice and the like.

I have yet to see a satisfactory answer to this dilemma, but that is not the point of my thread. I would like to take it a step further and question why an all-loving god would create the very concepts of murder, rape and disease in the first place.

How does a Christian reconcile the act of creating the urge to rape children with the idea of a good and loving God? Did God not create everything in the universe? If he did why would he create such horrors? If he insists we exercise free will, why is that more important than the hideous suffering that we see around the world? How would free will be at play when a young child dies in agony of a horrible disease or starvation?
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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5/5/2013 1:28:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 12:48:46 PM, FreeG wrote:


Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

You need to know first what the purpose of the creation? the purpose of creating people ? Did he create us to enjoy ourselves ? no it doesn't seem so.In Quran there is a verse that says that God created us to worship him, and worship him means praise him in times of enjoyment and supplicate him in times of hardship.Those who don't know God will never understand and will keep wondering why. But the true believer should know that this is the house of test , whether his life is easy or not he has to worship God until the test is over, and the time of justice has come!
PureX
Posts: 1,522
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5/5/2013 1:30:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This is just me, but I have a hard time conceiving of "God" in such human terms, like that. I know it's natural that we humans tend to anthropomorphize (imagining that our pets think like humans, and that fate is a woman, etc.) but it seem to me that whatever "God" is, it would almost have to be something very different from me, or anything I could comprehend.

So just for myself, I tend not to ask those kinds of questions because they pre-suppose a "God" that I don't think would be very realistic. But of course, I don't know any more or less than anyone else about what God is, or even if God is. You are certainly not alone in asking those questions, as we humans have been asking them for a very long time.
FreeG
Posts: 38
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5/5/2013 1:41:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 1:28:16 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 5/5/2013 12:48:46 PM, FreeG wrote:


Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

You need to know first what the purpose of the creation? the purpose of creating people ? Did he create us to enjoy ourselves ? no it doesn't seem so.In Quran there is a verse that says that God created us to worship him, and worship him means praise him in times of enjoyment and supplicate him in times of hardship.Those who don't know God will never understand and will keep wondering why. But the true believer should know that this is the house of test , whether his life is easy or not he has to worship God until the test is over, and the time of justice has come!

So you simply ignore the immorality of God and worship him because he demands it? We are allowed no free will and to make no moral judgement? This is the answer that I expected...no answer at all. Evasion and 'supplication' to God, not because he is good, but because he is fearful.
FreeG
Posts: 38
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5/5/2013 1:47:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 1:30:46 PM, PureX wrote:
This is just me, but I have a hard time conceiving of "God" in such human terms, like that. I know it's natural that we humans tend to anthropomorphize (imagining that our pets think like humans, and that fate is a woman, etc.) but it seem to me that whatever "God" is, it would almost have to be something very different from me, or anything I could comprehend.

So just for myself, I tend not to ask those kinds of questions because they pre-suppose a "God" that I don't think would be very realistic. But of course, I don't know any more or less than anyone else about what God is, or even if God is. You are certainly not alone in asking those questions, as we humans have been asking them for a very long time.

If he is God and demands worship he should be worthy of worship. I find it morally repugnant that somebody would worship a God that is so immoral. This God allows unspeakable horror to continue unabated. He maintains a colossal torture chamber where he torments billions of souls for all eternity and we are supposed to excuse all of that because we don't 'understand'? To condone these horrors out of fear is the epitome of moral cowardice.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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5/5/2013 1:50:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 1:41:18 PM, FreeG wrote:
At 5/5/2013 1:28:16 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 5/5/2013 12:48:46 PM, FreeG wrote:


Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

You need to know first what the purpose of the creation? the purpose of creating people ? Did he create us to enjoy ourselves ? no it doesn't seem so.In Quran there is a verse that says that God created us to worship him, and worship him means praise him in times of enjoyment and supplicate him in times of hardship.Those who don't know God will never understand and will keep wondering why. But the true believer should know that this is the house of test , whether his life is easy or not he has to worship God until the test is over, and the time of justice has come!

So you simply ignore the immorality of God and worship him because he demands it? We are allowed no free will and to make no moral judgement? This is the answer that I expected...no answer at all. Evasion and 'supplication' to God, not because he is good, but because he is fearful.

No, because it's stupid to ask, He is all wise and all knowledgeable , if he does something and you ignore the wisdom behind it will you not misjudge him ?your judgement can only be based on ignorance. God is the one to set morality for us, He is the one who will question us, not us will question him !!He is not equal to us, He is above us and whatever he does is right .
FreeG
Posts: 38
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5/5/2013 1:54:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 1:50:10 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 5/5/2013 1:41:18 PM, FreeG wrote:
At 5/5/2013 1:28:16 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 5/5/2013 12:48:46 PM, FreeG wrote:


Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

You need to know first what the purpose of the creation? the purpose of creating people ? Did he create us to enjoy ourselves ? no it doesn't seem so.In Quran there is a verse that says that God created us to worship him, and worship him means praise him in times of enjoyment and supplicate him in times of hardship.Those who don't know God will never understand and will keep wondering why. But the true believer should know that this is the house of test , whether his life is easy or not he has to worship God until the test is over, and the time of justice has come!

So you simply ignore the immorality of God and worship him because he demands it? We are allowed no free will and to make no moral judgement? This is the answer that I expected...no answer at all. Evasion and 'supplication' to God, not because he is good, but because he is fearful.

No, because it's stupid to ask, He is all wise and all knowledgeable , if he does something and you ignore the wisdom behind it will you not misjudge him ?your judgement can only be based on ignorance. God is the one to set morality for us, He is the one who will question us, not us will question him !!He is not equal to us, He is above us and whatever he does is right .

And I will answer him that I am morally superior to him, as I have no blood on my hands. I have tortured no-one and I have stood up to tyranny rather than soil my conscience by worshiping a plainly evil 'God' through fear.

I would rather suffer through all eternity than be that weak.
FreeG
Posts: 38
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5/5/2013 2:11:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 1:59:41 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Before that, enjoy the life he gave you.

So you have no response beyond 'you don't understand'? Do you really expect to convert people if you can't adequately defend your God? Are you really simply a sheep who has no choice but to worship? No critical faculties to question? No right to question tyranny? In defence of unspeakable horror you can only be threatening or trite?

You are not much of an example to those you expect to follow you.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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5/5/2013 2:13:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 1:59:41 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Before that, enjoy the life he gave you.

My parents gave me life, so I have to worship them and follow all the rules they set, or risk getting tortured?
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Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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5/5/2013 2:21:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 1:28:16 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 5/5/2013 12:48:46 PM, FreeG wrote:


Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

You need to know first what the purpose of the creation? the purpose of creating people ? Did he create us to enjoy ourselves ? no it doesn't seem so.In Quran there is a verse that says that God created us to worship him, and worship him means praise him in times of enjoyment and supplicate him in times of hardship.Those who don't know God will never understand and will keep wondering why. But the true believer should know that this is the house of test , whether his life is easy or not he has to worship God until the test is over, and the time of justice has come!

What kind of hideous narcissist creates people just to worship him? One part of ethics is not to have pride.
FreeG
Posts: 38
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5/5/2013 2:39:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The only conclusion I can draw from the lack of quality responses is that Christians simply have no answers. Their critical faculties have been left to wither in favour of the desire to conform to the belief system they have inherited. I came here expecting to be challenged intellectually and I have, so far, been disappointed.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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5/5/2013 2:46:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 2:13:56 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 5/5/2013 1:59:41 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Before that, enjoy the life he gave you.

My parents gave me life, so I have to worship them and follow all the rules they set, or risk getting tortured?

Your parents were just the way you came, they did not give you life! but yet the religion teaches you to obey them and be grateful to them.
FreeG
Posts: 38
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5/5/2013 2:46:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 2:43:47 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Dan, those are ethics for people ! not for God .

So you admit that God is unethical. You accept his evil deeds. Why? Through fear?

Surely if he is so arrogant as to call himself God he should be worthy of the term and the worship he demands.
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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5/5/2013 2:50:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 2:43:47 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Dan, those are ethics for people ! not for God .

Creating people just so they will worship you is narcissism. It doesn't matter who is doing it.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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5/5/2013 2:52:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 2:46:33 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 5/5/2013 2:13:56 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 5/5/2013 1:59:41 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Before that, enjoy the life he gave you.

My parents gave me life, so I have to worship them and follow all the rules they set, or risk getting tortured?

Your parents were just the way you came, they did not give you life! but yet the religion teaches you to obey them and be grateful to them.

They gave me life.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
FreeG
Posts: 38
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5/5/2013 2:53:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What kind of lesson is this teaching your children? You have to accept murder, torture and indifference to suffering because he is God. That is morally wrong and dangerous. No wonder tyranny thrives in the most religious countries on earth.
Talib.ul-Ilm
Posts: 203
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5/5/2013 3:01:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You're actually seeing this in a very small-minded way, and you probably did no sincere contemplation on the matter of why there is evil at all.

According to Islam

One, our purpose is to serve and worship God in every matter. The reward is eternity in heaven for those who obey, and eternity in hell for those who don't.

Two, our creation is authentic in every way. Where there is good, there is bad, as well as neutral. If you take away all of the bad, you have no test, because what test can there be without hardship? If you take away the bad, you have no free will, not true free will, because a lot of the "evil" comes from our own selves. If you remove all war, disease, suffering of any sort, what test is there? There can be no test.

Do you see how arrogant this approach of yours is?
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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5/5/2013 3:08:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 3:01:04 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
You're actually seeing this in a very small-minded way, and you probably did no sincere contemplation on the matter of why there is evil at all.

According to Islam

One, our purpose is to serve and worship God in every matter. The reward is eternity in heaven for those who obey, and eternity in hell for those who don't.

Two, our creation is authentic in every way. Where there is good, there is bad, as well as neutral. If you take away all of the bad, you have no test, because what test can there be without hardship? If you take away the bad, you have no free will, not true free will, because a lot of the "evil" comes from our own selves. If you remove all war, disease, suffering of any sort, what test is there? There can be no test.

Do you see how arrogant this approach of yours is?

Your answer makes a lot of sense. I was having a hard time accepting that God made us so he would be worshiped. Making us so we can be tested and rewarded if we do well makes much more sense to me.

So in your opinion, God is omnipotent right? In other words, he can do absolutely anything?
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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5/5/2013 3:11:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 2:46:33 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 5/5/2013 2:13:56 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 5/5/2013 1:59:41 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Before that, enjoy the life he gave you.

My parents gave me life, so I have to worship them and follow all the rules they set, or risk getting tortured?

Your parents were just the way you came, they did not give you life! but yet the religion teaches you to obey them and be grateful to them.

Have you ever seen Star Trek? Do you know the android named Data? What is interesting is according to the show there was this genius scientist who created Data. Now is morally acceptable for Data's creator to demand worship from Data on thread of being injected with a neural torture subroutine?
Talib.ul-Ilm
Posts: 203
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5/5/2013 3:11:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 3:08:22 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:01:04 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
You're actually seeing this in a very small-minded way, and you probably did no sincere contemplation on the matter of why there is evil at all.

According to Islam

One, our purpose is to serve and worship God in every matter. The reward is eternity in heaven for those who obey, and eternity in hell for those who don't.

Two, our creation is authentic in every way. Where there is good, there is bad, as well as neutral. If you take away all of the bad, you have no test, because what test can there be without hardship? If you take away the bad, you have no free will, not true free will, because a lot of the "evil" comes from our own selves. If you remove all war, disease, suffering of any sort, what test is there? There can be no test.

Do you see how arrogant this approach of yours is?

Your answer makes a lot of sense. I was having a hard time accepting that God made us so he would be worshiped. Making us so we can be tested and rewarded if we do well makes much more sense to me.

So in your opinion, God is omnipotent right? In other words, he can do absolutely anything?

Yes, He is. But just because He can do anything, doesn't mean He will.
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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5/5/2013 3:17:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 3:11:26 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:08:22 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:01:04 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
You're actually seeing this in a very small-minded way, and you probably did no sincere contemplation on the matter of why there is evil at all.

According to Islam

One, our purpose is to serve and worship God in every matter. The reward is eternity in heaven for those who obey, and eternity in hell for those who don't.

Two, our creation is authentic in every way. Where there is good, there is bad, as well as neutral. If you take away all of the bad, you have no test, because what test can there be without hardship? If you take away the bad, you have no free will, not true free will, because a lot of the "evil" comes from our own selves. If you remove all war, disease, suffering of any sort, what test is there? There can be no test.

Do you see how arrogant this approach of yours is?

Your answer makes a lot of sense. I was having a hard time accepting that God made us so he would be worshiped. Making us so we can be tested and rewarded if we do well makes much more sense to me.

So in your opinion, God is omnipotent right? In other words, he can do absolutely anything?

Yes, He is. But just because He can do anything, doesn't mean He will.

Cool. I understand. So basically what you are arguing is that an omnipotent being can't take away evil without taking away the test, and taking away free will?
Talib.ul-Ilm
Posts: 203
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5/5/2013 3:21:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 3:17:11 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:11:26 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:08:22 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:01:04 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
You're actually seeing this in a very small-minded way, and you probably did no sincere contemplation on the matter of why there is evil at all.

According to Islam

One, our purpose is to serve and worship God in every matter. The reward is eternity in heaven for those who obey, and eternity in hell for those who don't.

Two, our creation is authentic in every way. Where there is good, there is bad, as well as neutral. If you take away all of the bad, you have no test, because what test can there be without hardship? If you take away the bad, you have no free will, not true free will, because a lot of the "evil" comes from our own selves. If you remove all war, disease, suffering of any sort, what test is there? There can be no test.

Do you see how arrogant this approach of yours is?

Your answer makes a lot of sense. I was having a hard time accepting that God made us so he would be worshiped. Making us so we can be tested and rewarded if we do well makes much more sense to me.

So in your opinion, God is omnipotent right? In other words, he can do absolutely anything?

Yes, He is. But just because He can do anything, doesn't mean He will.

Cool. I understand. So basically what you are arguing is that an omnipotent being can't take away evil without taking away the test, and taking away free will?

Not that He can't, because He will. More that He simply won't until the Hour, for the reasons you just stated. To take away evil is to take away not only true free will, but the very authenticity of our creation.
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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5/5/2013 3:24:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 3:21:02 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:17:11 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:11:26 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:08:22 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:01:04 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
You're actually seeing this in a very small-minded way, and you probably did no sincere contemplation on the matter of why there is evil at all.

According to Islam

One, our purpose is to serve and worship God in every matter. The reward is eternity in heaven for those who obey, and eternity in hell for those who don't.

Two, our creation is authentic in every way. Where there is good, there is bad, as well as neutral. If you take away all of the bad, you have no test, because what test can there be without hardship? If you take away the bad, you have no free will, not true free will, because a lot of the "evil" comes from our own selves. If you remove all war, disease, suffering of any sort, what test is there? There can be no test.

Do you see how arrogant this approach of yours is?

Your answer makes a lot of sense. I was having a hard time accepting that God made us so he would be worshiped. Making us so we can be tested and rewarded if we do well makes much more sense to me.

So in your opinion, God is omnipotent right? In other words, he can do absolutely anything?

Yes, He is. But just because He can do anything, doesn't mean He will.

Cool. I understand. So basically what you are arguing is that an omnipotent being can't take away evil without taking away the test, and taking away free will?

Not that He can't, because He will. More that He simply won't until the Hour, for the reasons you just stated.

I am confused. You see, up here you seem to be implying that God can take away evil without taking away the test and free will...

To take away evil is to take away not only true free will, but the very authenticity of our creation.

...and yet down here you seem to be implying that such a thing cannot be done.
Talib.ul-Ilm
Posts: 203
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5/5/2013 3:29:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 3:24:59 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:21:02 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:17:11 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:11:26 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:08:22 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:01:04 PM, Talib.ul-Ilm wrote:
You're actually seeing this in a very small-minded way, and you probably did no sincere contemplation on the matter of why there is evil at all.

According to Islam

One, our purpose is to serve and worship God in every matter. The reward is eternity in heaven for those who obey, and eternity in hell for those who don't.

Two, our creation is authentic in every way. Where there is good, there is bad, as well as neutral. If you take away all of the bad, you have no test, because what test can there be without hardship? If you take away the bad, you have no free will, not true free will, because a lot of the "evil" comes from our own selves. If you remove all war, disease, suffering of any sort, what test is there? There can be no test.

Do you see how arrogant this approach of yours is?

Your answer makes a lot of sense. I was having a hard time accepting that God made us so he would be worshiped. Making us so we can be tested and rewarded if we do well makes much more sense to me.

So in your opinion, God is omnipotent right? In other words, he can do absolutely anything?

Yes, He is. But just because He can do anything, doesn't mean He will.

Cool. I understand. So basically what you are arguing is that an omnipotent being can't take away evil without taking away the test, and taking away free will?

Not that He can't, because He will. More that He simply won't until the Hour, for the reasons you just stated.

I am confused. You see, up here you seem to be implying that God can take away evil without taking away the test and free will...

To take away evil is to take away not only true free will, but the very authenticity of our creation.

...and yet down here you seem to be implying that such a thing cannot be done.

I said that He can do anything, but He won't, because right now life is a test. It will not be till the Hour that He does. And then I went on to say "why" He won't, because it will take away the test and authenticity of our existence.
Fruitytree
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5/5/2013 3:29:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 2:46:40 PM, FreeG wrote:
At 5/5/2013 2:43:47 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Dan, those are ethics for people ! not for God .

So you admit that God is unethical. You accept his evil deeds. Why? Through fear?

Surely if he is so arrogant as to call himself God he should be worthy of the term and the worship he demands.

No. If God is arrogant it is because he is superior to us, He even is the reason we're here. You go from the idea that God is a man it seems! God is not one of us , He is our creator, His arrogance is just natural. He does not have evil deeds , all his deeds are wise. and he is all just.

Remember I'm not speaking for Christians , Jesus to Islam is a man, he is not God but a messenger of God.
Fruitytree
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5/5/2013 3:31:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 2:52:56 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 5/5/2013 2:46:33 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 5/5/2013 2:13:56 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 5/5/2013 1:59:41 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Before that, enjoy the life he gave you.

My parents gave me life, so I have to worship them and follow all the rules they set, or risk getting tortured?

Your parents were just the way you came, they did not give you life! but yet the religion teaches you to obey them and be grateful to them.

They gave me life.

Sometimes I wish I was a fox. How did they give you life ?!