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Argument Against a Perfect Being (AKA God)

Rational_Thinker9119
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5/5/2013 3:09:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Argument Against a Perfect Being (AKA God)

P1: If God exists, he is a perfect being

*"This follows from classical Theism"

P2: If a perfect being exists, his choices are consistent with 100% perfection

*"Anything less than 100% perfection is not perfection at all, but imperfection. Between two hypotethetical beings; the one who has choices consistent with 100% perfection is self-evidently the perfect being, over a being who has choices consistent with imperfection. To state otherwise would seem to be an absurdity."

P3: A being who makes choices consistent with 100% perfection, would not choose to shift reality from:

(i) A reality consisting of 100% perfection

to

(ii) A reality consisting of imperfection

."This seems to follow naturally and is self-evident."

P4: If a perfect being exists, creating the universe would be shifting reality from (i) to (ii)

."Denial of this entails that either the universe and its entities are God, or that the universe is just as perfect as God. This destroys the notion of God. Therefore, the theist would have to concede that the universe and the entities it contains are imperfect. This means that if a perfect being exists; reality consisted of 100% perfection prior to the universe, while reality now consists of imperfection."

P5: A perfect being would not choose to create the universe

."This follows naturally from the preceding premises"

P6: If God exists, a perfect being would choose to create the universe

."This follows from classical Theism"

Conclusion: God does not exist

."This follows naturally from the preceding premises"
annanicole
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5/5/2013 3:53:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 3:50:20 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
please to define perfection and imperfection

Cause all your theory depend on that.

LOL I think he posted that as a joke.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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5/5/2013 4:00:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 3:53:09 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:50:20 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
please to define perfection and imperfection

Cause all your theory depend on that.

LOL I think he posted that as a joke.

The problem is that His goal is to prove perfect god does not exist, and he is obviously biased .
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/5/2013 4:00:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 3:53:09 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:50:20 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
please to define perfection and imperfection

Cause all your theory depend on that.

LOL I think he posted that as a joke.

Actually, the premises are self-evident and the argument follows logically. Therefore, a perfect being does not exist. Denying logic will not save your belief.
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/5/2013 4:01:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 4:00:21 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:53:09 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:50:20 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
please to define perfection and imperfection

Cause all your theory depend on that.

LOL I think he posted that as a joke.

The problem is that His goal is to prove perfect god does not exist, and he is obviously biased .

It does not matter what my goal is. If the premises are true, and the argument is valid; the conclusion follows. I could be the most biased Christmas hating Atheist alive...It wouldn't change the fact that my argument is sound.
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/5/2013 4:02:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 3:50:20 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
please to define perfection and imperfection

Whatever is not God, or just as perfect as God.


Cause all your theory depend on that.
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/5/2013 4:05:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 3:58:35 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Why do you say Universe is imperfect ? there are no flaws ! do you mean the evil ?

There are no flaws? So, it is just as perfect as God then....This means your God is only as perfect as a dead, lifeless radiation filled space-time?
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/5/2013 4:09:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 3:50:20 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
please to define perfection and imperfection

Cause all your theory depend on that.

When a girl gets raped, or a lion kills a deer and eats the bloody flesh..This is just as perfect as if only God existed is what you are implying. If beings he could hypothetically creates with free-will lead to imperfection, then a perfect God does not create these beings with free-will as it would go against his perfect nature. It would be like saying God could create a completely red house with one blue brick if he wanted to. God has choices, but he does not go against his perfect nature. Our existence shows that reality does not consist of 100% perfect. Since a perfect being would make choices consistent with 100% perfection, then if he existed he would not have created the universe. He would have just existed in an equillibrium, choosing to be consistent with 100% perfection, by existing in a reality only consisting of 100% perfection.
Fruitytree
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5/5/2013 4:11:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Are you trying to equal universe to God ?

The Universe is a perfect universe.

and God is The perfect God.

Not sure what the purpose of saying the universe is as perfect as God ?!!!!

It's like Christians said , because Jesus was a perfect man they made him equal to God , yet he is not god but a man he created nothing ? I don't get you please to explain.
Fruitytree
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5/5/2013 4:15:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 4:09:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:50:20 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
please to define perfection and imperfection

Cause all your theory depend on that.

When a girl gets raped, or a lion kills a deer and eats the bloody flesh..This is just as perfect as if only God existed is what you are implying. If beings he could hypothetically creates with free-will lead to imperfection, then a perfect God does not create these beings with free-will as it would go against his perfect nature. It would be like saying God could create a completely red house with one blue brick if he wanted to. God has choices, but he does not go against his perfect nature. Our existence shows that reality does not consist of 100% perfect. Since a perfect being would make choices consistent with 100% perfection, then if he existed he would not have created the universe. He would have just existed in an equillibrium, choosing to be consistent with 100% perfection, by existing in a reality only consisting of 100% perfection.

Ok so evil is your problem, so if God created just good, that would be perfect , but as he created both good and evil this is not perfect ?! excuse me but it's the opposite.
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/5/2013 4:16:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 4:11:10 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Are you trying to equal universe to God ?

No, that is what you are doing when you call the universe perfect. If God is perfect, and the universe is perfect. Then this means they are the same level.


The Universe is a perfect universe.

No it is not. Evil exists. Evil is imperfect. This means, reality is not 100% perfect. God would not create species with free-will knowing they would lead to imperfection if he did, this would go against his perfect nature. Since a perfect God only makes choices consistent with 100% perfection, then our universe with evil is impossible.


and God is The perfect God.

My argument shows this is false.


Not sure what the purpose of saying the universe is as perfect as God ?!!!!

That is what you are saying. If you say the universe is perfect, and God is perfect. Then you are putting the universe on the same level as God. Even if the universe is a perfect universe, it still isn't perfect in general! This means, it still goes against 100% perfection.


It's like Christians said , because Jesus was a perfect man they made him equal to God , yet he is not god but a man he created nothing ? I don't get you please to explain.
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/5/2013 4:18:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 4:15:45 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 5/5/2013 4:09:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:50:20 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
please to define perfection and imperfection

Cause all your theory depend on that.

When a girl gets raped, or a lion kills a deer and eats the bloody flesh..This is just as perfect as if only God existed is what you are implying. If beings he could hypothetically creates with free-will lead to imperfection, then a perfect God does not create these beings with free-will as it would go against his perfect nature. It would be like saying God could create a completely red house with one blue brick if he wanted to. God has choices, but he does not go against his perfect nature. Our existence shows that reality does not consist of 100% perfect. Since a perfect being would make choices consistent with 100% perfection, then if he existed he would not have created the universe. He would have just existed in an equillibrium, choosing to be consistent with 100% perfection, by existing in a reality only consisting of 100% perfection.

Ok so evil is your problem, so if God created just good, that would be perfect , but as he created both good and evil this is not perfect ?! excuse me but it's the opposite.

It doesn't even have to do with evil, but yes. It doesn't have to do with evil because even if the universe may be the most perfect universe, but it isn't perfect in general like God is, then it still HINDERS 100% perfection in general. Which would be impossible is God was actually perfect.
cybertron1998
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5/5/2013 4:21:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 3:58:35 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Why do you say Universe is imperfect ? there are no flaws ! do you mean the evil ?

i smell another contradiction. i heard that god is the only thing perfect but now you tell me that the universe is too. which leads to another contradiction. the universe is our reality and we are part of this reality. if the universe was perfect that would in turn make us perfect.
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/5/2013 4:22:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 4:21:32 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:58:35 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Why do you say Universe is imperfect ? there are no flaws ! do you mean the evil ?

i smell another contradiction. i heard that god is the only thing perfect but now you tell me that the universe is too. which leads to another contradiction. the universe is our reality and we are part of this reality. if the universe was perfect that would in turn make us perfect.

Exactly. He doesn't understand that he has backed himself into a corner with his comments.
cybertron1998
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5/5/2013 4:23:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 4:22:22 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/5/2013 4:21:32 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:58:35 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Why do you say Universe is imperfect ? there are no flaws ! do you mean the evil ?

i smell another contradiction. i heard that god is the only thing perfect but now you tell me that the universe is too. which leads to another contradiction. the universe is our reality and we are part of this reality. if the universe was perfect that would in turn make us perfect.

Exactly. He doesn't understand that he has backed himself into a corner with his comments.

thats a relief i was waiting for someone to affirm what i said before i continued.
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
cybertron1998
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5/5/2013 4:25:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 4:23:58 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 5/5/2013 4:22:22 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/5/2013 4:21:32 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:58:35 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Why do you say Universe is imperfect ? there are no flaws ! do you mean the evil ?

i smell another contradiction. i heard that god is the only thing perfect but now you tell me that the universe is too. which leads to another contradiction. the universe is our reality and we are part of this reality. if the universe was perfect that would in turn make us perfect.

Exactly. He doesn't understand that he has backed himself into a corner with his comments.

thats a relief i was waiting for someone to affirm what i said before i continued.

oh and the he is a she, dude
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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5/5/2013 4:27:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 4:25:59 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 5/5/2013 4:23:58 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 5/5/2013 4:22:22 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/5/2013 4:21:32 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 5/5/2013 3:58:35 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Why do you say Universe is imperfect ? there are no flaws ! do you mean the evil ?

i smell another contradiction. i heard that god is the only thing perfect but now you tell me that the universe is too. which leads to another contradiction. the universe is our reality and we are part of this reality. if the universe was perfect that would in turn make us perfect.

Exactly. He doesn't understand that he has backed himself into a corner with his comments.

thats a relief i was waiting for someone to affirm what i said before i continued.

oh and the he is a she, dude

Oh well...
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
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5/5/2013 4:31:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
speaking metaphysically if a god create a perfect reality that would mean total order. but if there was total order nothing would happen. on the other hand if it was total chaos everything would be destroyed. no matter how much theists deny it chaos and order are both needed for anything to exist and move on.
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/5/2013 4:32:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If reality is just as 100% perfect as it was prior to The Big Bang as it is now, then this means that an asteroid is just a perfect as God. It means that the ant outside in between the cracks in my side walk are just as perfect as God, and that God is no more perfect. This is obviously false as God would be omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent and all that other stuff. Since a perfect being would only make choices consistent with 100% perfection, then the equilibrium would not be disturbed and there would be no Big Bang as it would lead to a reality which was consistent with imperfection (which would be impossible if a perfect being exists). Therefore, a perfect God cannot exist.
AlbinoBunny
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5/5/2013 4:33:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Perfection and imperfection are subjective.
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Rational_Thinker9119
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5/5/2013 4:35:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 4:33:15 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
Perfection and imperfection are subjective.

Then an objectively perfect God cannot exist. Either way, we end up at the same door.
cybertron1998
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5/5/2013 4:36:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
if everything was perfect than perfect wouldn't exist. everything would transcend into a higher plain and we would be right back to where we started
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
Fruitytree
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5/5/2013 4:56:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 4:33:15 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
Perfection and imperfection are subjective.

Sometimes I love you and sometimes I hate youPerfect God has a definition,perfect universe has another definitionnot because universe is perfect ( with it's rules ads laws) , that all creatures need to be perfect !
Fruitytree
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5/5/2013 4:58:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 4:35:47 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/5/2013 4:33:15 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
Perfection and imperfection are subjective.

Then an objectively perfect God cannot exist. Either way, we end up at the same door.

Man your logic is corrupted , I guess because our are biased
cybertron1998
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5/5/2013 5:00:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/5/2013 4:56:53 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 5/5/2013 4:33:15 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
Perfection and imperfection are subjective.

Sometimes I love you and sometimes I hate youPerfect God has a definition,perfect universe has another definitionnot because universe is perfect ( with it's rules ads laws) , that all creatures need to be perfect !

hah! you just disproved a perfect universe. you said that all creatures need to be perfect, and these creatures are a part of the universe. that completely rules out a perfect universe and in turn rules out a perfect god. two birds with one stone
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/5/2013 5:02:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Also in addition to my argument; a person acting out on their free-will means they were dissatisfied with their prior state. If I get a glass of milk, it was because I was not satisfied with no glass of milk. If I get up and dance, it is because I was dissatisfied with not dancing. If I scratch my nose, it is because I was dissatisfied with not scratching my nose. If I go to work, it is because I am dissatisfied with my prior, broke state.

This means, that reality prior to choosing to do something is always imperfect if one acts or else they would have 0 reason to act. However if God existed prior to The Big Bang and was perfect, he would not be dissatisfied with reality or himself, as reality would be 100% perfect, and so would he! He would literally have 0 reason to act. Only imperfect beings act out of being in an imperfect position prior. If we were 100% perfect, we would be 100% satisfied with our perfection. If god creates, this means he was dissatisfied with himself. This would be impossible if he was actually perfect.

"We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium." - Chad Docterman