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Eschatology, Pre, Post, and A Millennialism

Marauder
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5/6/2013 11:54:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
So I have to study up on Eschatology I have decided. People keep asking me opinion on it and its the one issue I do not have one on. I consider myself to know a little bit in about every one of the main kinds of theories they are out there, but more to do with Pre-millennialism than any of the others. From the books I have gotten a hold of on the topic they typically have been written by authors supporting that view, and it is the most commonly accepted one today I think.

However it does not sit quite right with me as a Methodist to just be for Pre-Millennialism knowing John Wesley was apparently a Post-tribulation Amillennialist.

So I was hoping to here some thoughts of my fellow DDOers on the subject to help me sort out where I myself will choose to stand, what side do you take with post or pre tribulation and post and pre and a-millennialism when it comes to the return of Christ, and more importantly to me, how does your view of eschatology fit with your other theological positions on major issues like Free Will Vs Predestination in particular? Do you consider one them to relate to each other, or do they have so little to do with each other that you believe you could hold any eschatological view and it would be perfectly compatible to the same degree as any of the other views with your beliefs about Free Will or Predestination?
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
annanicole
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5/7/2013 1:45:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
To me, premillennialism is about the most ridiculous system I've ever run across: it makes the coming of Christ a failure, casts doubt upon prophetic veracity, reduces the establishment of the church to a contingency - an afterthought, involves an inexplicable setting-aside of the entire gospel plan of conversion .... and more.

It's interesting ... I'll say that for it. But that's about all I can say. I have never, never understood how a serious Bible student could believe it.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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5/7/2013 7:03:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/6/2013 11:54:25 PM, Marauder wrote:
So I have to study up on Eschatology I have decided. People keep asking me opinion on it and its the one issue I do not have one on. I consider myself to know a little bit in about every one of the main kinds of theories they are out there, but more to do with Pre-millennialism than any of the others. From the books I have gotten a hold of on the topic they typically have been written by authors supporting that view, and it is the most commonly accepted one today I think.

Really? I was under the impression that Eastern Orthodox and Catholics were amillennialists. I know I am, anyway.

However it does not sit quite right with me as a Methodist to just be for Pre-Millennialism knowing John Wesley was apparently a Post-tribulation Amillennialist.

So I was hoping to here some thoughts of my fellow DDOers on the subject to help me sort out where I myself will choose to stand, what side do you take with post or pre tribulation and post and pre and a-millennialism when it comes to the return of Christ, and more importantly to me, how does your view of eschatology fit with your other theological positions on major issues like Free Will Vs Predestination in particular? Do you consider one them to relate to each other, or do they have so little to do with each other that you believe you could hold any eschatological view and it would be perfectly compatible to the same degree as any of the other views with your beliefs about Free Will or Predestination?

I don't know what post or pre tribulation even mean, unfortunately, so no idea where I stand on that. It doesn't really relate to anything else at all as far as I'm aware, and I could probably swap it out without conflict.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Marauder
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5/7/2013 10:05:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 1:45:20 AM, annanicole wrote:
To me, premillennialism is about the most ridiculous system I've ever run across: it makes the coming of Christ a failure,
a failure? how so, they still believe Jesus will reign on earth for 1000 years, with Satan bound up in the pit in a more literal since even than post and amillennialist do
casts doubt upon prophetic veracity,
what do you mean by this?
reduces the establishment of the church to a contingency - an afterthought, involves an inexplicable setting-aside of the entire gospel plan of conversion .... and more.
Its just as important to the pre-millennialist to witness and convert the lost as it is the post millennialist, peoples eternal salvation are no differently at stake with either mindset, only the pre-millennialist do not believe its all going to one day accumulate in an earthly empire before the second coming of Christ.

It's interesting ... I'll say that for it. But that's about all I can say. I have never, never understood how a serious Bible student could believe it.

I am guessing you are post millennial or amillennial, could you describe your own view, where the tribulation fits in with it and the 1000 year reign of Christ and the bounding of Satan mentioned in revelation 20?
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
annanicole
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5/7/2013 10:18:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 10:05:55 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 5/7/2013 1:45:20 AM, annanicole wrote:
To me, premillennialism is about the most ridiculous system I've ever run across: it makes the coming of Christ a failure,
a failure? how so, they still believe Jesus will reign on earth for 1000 years, with Satan bound up in the pit in a more literal since even than post and amillennialist do
casts doubt upon prophetic veracity,
what do you mean by this?
reduces the establishment of the church to a contingency - an afterthought, involves an inexplicable setting-aside of the entire gospel plan of conversion .... and more.
Its just as important to the pre-millennialist to witness and convert the lost as it is the post millennialist, peoples eternal salvation are no differently at stake with either mindset, only the pre-millennialist do not believe its all going to one day accumulate in an earthly empire before the second coming of Christ.

It's interesting ... I'll say that for it. But that's about all I can say. I have never, never understood how a serious Bible student could believe it.

I am guessing you are post millennial or amillennial, could you describe your own view, where the tribulation fits in with it and the 1000 year reign of Christ and the bounding of Satan mentioned in revelation 20?

Yes, a failure ... one big failure. They contend that Jesus really came to set up an earthly kingdom - but flunked at that one. Why? Well, because the Jews killed Him. So since He couldn't do what He really wanted to do, God postponed ... sort-of divinely pigeon-holed ... His plan - and set up the church as a contingent, an interim measure. As far as prophesy, they generally say that Dan 2 was ... postponed. It never occurs to them that a prophesy with a time-element cannot be postponed: it just fails. All the announcements that the kingdom was "at hand" .. "nigh unto you" ... etc.? Never happened. Premilleninalists are experts at explaining away prophetic failures.

As far as the kingdom, why, they just say it was never set up! Paul was in it - but it was never set up. John was in it - but it was never set up. The Colossians were in it - but it was never set up. It was announced ... it was at hand ... it was nigh ... some then living would not die until it came ... Paul was in it ... John was in it ---> BUT it's not HERE YET! That's premillennialism!

As far as the latter part of your post ("where the tribulation fits in with it and the 1000 year reign of Christ and the bounding of Satan mentioned in revelation 20?"), almost all ... 99% ... of John's apocalyptic vision of things which would "shortly come to pass" because the time was "at hand" DID come to pass. They came to pass during the persecutions by the Jews. They came to pass during the Roman persecutions, which occurred in waves. They came to pass in the siege an destruction of Jerusalem.

I may not know what all of the signs and figures and types mean: some are more apparent than others. But look at what premillennialists do! Postpone the kingdom. Postpone prophesy. Speculate ad infinitum.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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5/7/2013 10:19:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 7:03:18 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 5/6/2013 11:54:25 PM, Marauder wrote:
So I have to study up on Eschatology I have decided. People keep asking me opinion on it and its the one issue I do not have one on. I consider myself to know a little bit in about every one of the main kinds of theories they are out there, but more to do with Pre-millennialism than any of the others. From the books I have gotten a hold of on the topic they typically have been written by authors supporting that view, and it is the most commonly accepted one today I think.

Really? I was under the impression that Eastern Orthodox and Catholics were amillennialists. I know I am, anyway.
Well I guess I meant from mainstream protestants. protestants kind of interact with each other a little in bookstores that sell christian books and study matieral and such in my area but they dont share much with Catholics. you couldnt go to the local Lifeway store and buy a Rosery, or a Catholic appologetic book or anything like that.

However it does not sit quite right with me as a Methodist to just be for Pre-Millennialism knowing John Wesley was apparently a Post-tribulation Amillennialist.

So I was hoping to here some thoughts of my fellow DDOers on the subject to help me sort out where I myself will choose to stand, what side do you take with post or pre tribulation and post and pre and a-millennialism when it comes to the return of Christ, and more importantly to me, how does your view of eschatology fit with your other theological positions on major issues like Free Will Vs Predestination in particular? Do you consider one them to relate to each other, or do they have so little to do with each other that you believe you could hold any eschatological view and it would be perfectly compatible to the same degree as any of the other views with your beliefs about Free Will or Predestination?

I don't know what post or pre tribulation even mean, unfortunately, so no idea where I stand on that.
same thing the post and pre mean when talking about post and pre-millennialism. the return of christ is it before or after the 1000 year reign (pre or post milllinalism) and is it before or after the tribulation (post or pre tribulation). basically asking if you are pre-tribulation premillenialist is asking if you believe in Rapture teaching, that there is going to be a secret coming of christ where he sucks people out of there cloths like in the 'left behind' movies and leaves the rest of the world to the anti-christ for 7 years before returning again at the end of that 7 year period to overthrow the anti-christ.

or do you believe in a post tribulation return of christ? that sometime after this 7 year period is the first time christ will return, there is no secret rapture, when Jesus comes back that will be it, he will overthrow the devil right then, and we will not get a post rapture second chance to turn to christ, so if we are not ready to met jesus now we are in trouble.

It doesn't really relate to anything else at all as far as I'm aware, and I could probably swap it out without conflict.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
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5/7/2013 10:34:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 10:18:43 PM, annanicole wrote:

Yes, a failure ... one big failure. They contend that Jesus really came to set up an earthly kingdom - but flunked at that one. Why? Well, because the Jews killed Him. So since He couldn't do what He really wanted to do, God postponed ... sort-of divinely pigeon-holed ... His plan - and set up the church as a contingent, an interim measure.
It wouldnt make jesus a failure if setting up the kingdom was held up in that way, by the free will's of the chosen people originally it was intended for, kind of goes hand in hand with the same biblical defense against the very accusation you make right now in 2 Peter 3:9 'the lord is not slack in his promised returned, but he is longsuffering toward us not wanting any to perish...." (thats a little paraphrased).
As far as prophesy, they generally say that Dan 2 was ... postponed. It never occurs to them that a prophesy with a time-element cannot be postponed: it just fails. All the announcements that the kingdom was "at hand" .. "nigh unto you" ... etc.? Never happened. Premilleninalists are experts at explaining away prophetic failures.

As far as the kingdom, why, they just say it was never set up! Paul was in it - but it was never set up. John was in it - but it was never set up. The Colossians were in it - but it was never set up. It was announced ... it was at hand ... it was nigh ... some then living would not die until it came ... Paul was in it ... John was in it ---> BUT it's not HERE YET! That's premillennialism!

As far as the latter part of your post ("where the tribulation fits in with it and the 1000 year reign of Christ and the bounding of Satan mentioned in revelation 20?"), almost all ... 99% ... of John's apocalyptic vision of things which would "shortly come to pass" because the time was "at hand" DID come to pass. They came to pass during the persecutions by the Jews. They came to pass during the Roman persecutions, which occurred in waves. They came to pass in the siege an destruction of Jerusalem.

I may not know what all of the signs and figures and types mean: some are more apparent than others. But look at what premillennialists do! Postpone the kingdom. Postpone prophesy. Speculate ad infinitum.

Wait!? are you telling me that you believe the 1000 year reign has already occurred? or is that part of the 1% of Revelation you say has not yet occurred. Or are you saying the Kingdom did come, in a spiritual since, and that's all that will ever come from that prophecy?
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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5/7/2013 10:53:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 10:34:37 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 5/7/2013 10:18:43 PM, annanicole wrote:

Yes, a failure ... one big failure. They contend that Jesus really came to set up an earthly kingdom - but flunked at that one. Why? Well, because the Jews killed Him. So since He couldn't do what He really wanted to do, God postponed ... sort-of divinely pigeon-holed ... His plan - and set up the church as a contingent, an interim measure.
It wouldnt make jesus a failure if setting up the kingdom was held up in that way, by the free will's of the chosen people originally it was intended for, kind of goes hand in hand with the same biblical defense against the very accusation you make right now in 2 Peter 3:9 'the lord is not slack in his promised returned, but he is longsuffering toward us not wanting any to perish...." (thats a little paraphrased).
As far as prophesy, they generally say that Dan 2 was ... postponed. It never occurs to them that a prophesy with a time-element cannot be postponed: it just fails. All the announcements that the kingdom was "at hand" .. "nigh unto you" ... etc.? Never happened. Premilleninalists are experts at explaining away prophetic failures.

As far as the kingdom, why, they just say it was never set up! Paul was in it - but it was never set up. John was in it - but it was never set up. The Colossians were in it - but it was never set up. It was announced ... it was at hand ... it was nigh ... some then living would not die until it came ... Paul was in it ... John was in it ---> BUT it's not HERE YET! That's premillennialism!

As far as the latter part of your post ("where the tribulation fits in with it and the 1000 year reign of Christ and the bounding of Satan mentioned in revelation 20?"), almost all ... 99% ... of John's apocalyptic vision of things which would "shortly come to pass" because the time was "at hand" DID come to pass. They came to pass during the persecutions by the Jews. They came to pass during the Roman persecutions, which occurred in waves. They came to pass in the siege an destruction of Jerusalem.

I may not know what all of the signs and figures and types mean: some are more apparent than others. But look at what premillennialists do! Postpone the kingdom. Postpone prophesy. Speculate ad infinitum.

Wait!? are you telling me that you believe the 1000 year reign has already occurred? or is that part of the 1% of Revelation you say has not yet occurred. Or are you saying the Kingdom did come, in a spiritual since, and that's all that will ever come from that prophecy?

Yep, it occurred. All the phrase means is "a long time". That's all the phrase "a thousand" or "one thousand" means in apocalyptic literature. Now I'll see what you are telling me:

In Rev 1, before a sign or figure was ever introduced, John said, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass ... Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand ... I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos."

I would ask, "Have these things which were to shortly come to pass ... never happened?" Was John in the tribulation right then? Was John a citizen of the kingdom of God as was Paul in Col 1: 13? Does the phrase "at hand" mean 2,000 years and counting? If Daniel prophesied that the kingdom of God would be set up during the days of the Roman emperors - and it didn't occur at that time, does not such a lack of fulfillment constitute a prophetic failure? In fact, is there any way to "postpone" a prophesy with a specific time element attached to it?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Sola.Gratia
Posts: 278
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5/8/2013 1:12:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/6/2013 11:54:25 PM, Marauder wrote:
So I have to study up on Eschatology I have decided. People keep asking me opinion on it and its the one issue I do not have one on. I consider myself to know a little bit in about every one of the main kinds of theories they are out there, but more to do with Pre-millennialism than any of the others. From the books I have gotten a hold of on the topic they typically have been written by authors supporting that view, and it is the most commonly accepted one today I think.

However it does not sit quite right with me as a Methodist to just be for Pre-Millennialism knowing John Wesley was apparently a Post-tribulation Amillennialist.

So I was hoping to here some thoughts of my fellow DDOers on the subject to help me sort out where I myself will choose to stand, what side do you take with post or pre tribulation and post and pre and a-millennialism when it comes to the return of Christ, and more importantly to me, how does your view of eschatology fit with your other theological positions on major issues like Free Will Vs Predestination in particular? Do you consider one them to relate to each other, or do they have so little to do with each other that you believe you could hold any eschatological view and it would be perfectly compatible to the same degree as any of the other views with your beliefs about Free Will or Predestination?

I hold to dispensation Pre-millennialism.. Because I believe that Jesus will return and collect His people before all the trials that will happen for the 7 years and that when He comes everyone will see Him for who He is.. It's being raptured into the sky and going with Jesus to Heaven to be with Him.

Now.....

Concerning predestination "free will" there are actually two sides of free will.. One is out of mere desires and the other is choosing.. So depending on which side you hold to of "free will" will determine if you see predestination related to predestination or not.. I believe it relates together because free will of choosing to obey God can only be because God chose us to allow us to choose to obey Him.. Whereas, if you decide they're not the same and don't relate at all you will have the "desire" free will vs. predestination.. Because desires root from our wants and feelings.. do people desire to obey God on they're own? No. So if they don't then its obvious that predestination cannot go hand in hand with this type of free will.. free will is a change of heart to obey God not because you desire to obey God but because God puts that choice for you to decide to obey Him willfully.. Its clear in Scripture that God already knew who was going to be His even before the world was created and before we were even born.. (See Ephesians 1:3-10 & also see Jeremiah 1:). (Even though all of thee men sinned God still chose them). You see in other stories, Noah and is family God chose to save they were His and the rest of the world was destroyed because it was all corrupt and rebellious to God. (Genesis 6:9-14). Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Lot and his daughters and all the prophets that God used to speak the truth.. Those that were changed it was because God permitted their hearts to be changed and to obey Him.. Everyone else that did not listen were left in open sin and destroyed for their willful disobedience to God.. God had no part in commanding them to rebellion against Him.. They chose to disobey God on their own.. They did not have desire for God and so that's why they remained in their sins..

I hope this answers your questions.. and I pray that God shows you what you need to know.. Search the Scriptures and test what I am saying in the Scriptures to see if what I am saying is true or not.. Don't just take what people tell you search yourself.. II. Timothy 2:15 commands us to study.. I. John 4 commands us to test the spirits.. so I encourage you to do just this.. :)
"What is sin? It is the glory of God not honored. Holiness of God not reverenced. Greatness of God not admired. Power of God not praised. Truth of God not sought. Wisdom of God not esteemed. Beauty of God not treasured. Goodness of God not savored. Faithfulness of God not trusted. Commandments of God not obeyed. Justice of God not respected. Wrath of God not feared. Grace of God not cherished. Presence of God not prized. Person of God not loved. That is sin." ~John Piper
Sola.Gratia
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5/8/2013 10:18:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 1:12:27 PM, Sola.Gratia wrote:
At 5/6/2013 11:54:25 PM, Marauder wrote:
So I have to study up on Eschatology I have decided. People keep asking me opinion on it and its the one issue I do not have one on. I consider myself to know a little bit in about every one of the main kinds of theories they are out there, but more to do with Pre-millennialism than any of the others. From the books I have gotten a hold of on the topic they typically have been written by authors supporting that view, and it is the most commonly accepted one today I think.

However it does not sit quite right with me as a Methodist to just be for Pre-Millennialism knowing John Wesley was apparently a Post-tribulation Amillennialist.

So I was hoping to here some thoughts of my fellow DDOers on the subject to help me sort out where I myself will choose to stand, what side do you take with post or pre tribulation and post and pre and a-millennialism when it comes to the return of Christ, and more importantly to me, how does your view of eschatology fit with your other theological positions on major issues like Free Will Vs Predestination in particular? Do you consider one them to relate to each other, or do they have so little to do with each other that you believe you could hold any eschatological view and it would be perfectly compatible to the same degree as any of the other views with your beliefs about Free Will or Predestination?

I hold to dispensation Pre-millennialism.. Because I believe that Jesus will return and collect His people before all the trials that will happen for the 7 years and that when He comes everyone will see Him for who He is.. It's being raptured into the sky and going with Jesus to Heaven to be with Him.

Now.....

Concerning predestination "free will" there are actually two sides of free will.. One is out of mere desires and the other is choosing.. So depending on which side you hold to of "free will" will determine if you see predestination related to predestination or not.. I believe it relates together because free will of choosing to obey God can only be because God chose us to allow us to choose to obey Him.. Whereas, if you decide they're not the same and don't relate at all you will have the "desire" free will vs. predestination.. Because desires root from our wants and feelings.. do people desire to obey God on they're own? No. So if they don't then its obvious that predestination cannot go hand in hand with this type of free will.. free will is a change of heart to obey God not because you desire to obey God but because God puts that choice for you to decide to obey Him willfully.. Its clear in Scripture that God already knew who was going to be His even before the world was created and before we were even born.. (See Ephesians 1:3-10 & also see Jeremiah 1:). (Even though all of thee men sinned God still chose them). You see in other stories, Noah and is family God chose to save they were His and the rest of the world was destroyed because it was all corrupt and rebellious to God. (Genesis 6:9-14). Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Lot and his daughters and all the prophets that God used to speak the truth.. Those that were changed it was because God permitted their hearts to be changed and to obey Him.. Everyone else that did not listen were left in open sin and destroyed for their willful disobedience to God.. God had no part in commanding them to rebellion against Him.. They chose to disobey God on their own.. They did not have desire for God and so that's why they remained in their sins..

I hope this answers your questions.. and I pray that God shows you what you need to know.. Search the Scriptures and test what I am saying in the Scriptures to see if what I am saying is true or not.. Don't just take what people tell you search yourself.. II. Timothy 2:15 commands us to study.. I. John 4 commands us to test the spirits.. so I encourage you to do just this.. :)

I meant just premil itself.. Sorry for the confusion..
"What is sin? It is the glory of God not honored. Holiness of God not reverenced. Greatness of God not admired. Power of God not praised. Truth of God not sought. Wisdom of God not esteemed. Beauty of God not treasured. Goodness of God not savored. Faithfulness of God not trusted. Commandments of God not obeyed. Justice of God not respected. Wrath of God not feared. Grace of God not cherished. Presence of God not prized. Person of God not loved. That is sin." ~John Piper
Marauder
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5/8/2013 10:43:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 10:53:23 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/7/2013 10:34:37 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 5/7/2013 10:18:43 PM, annanicole wrote:

Yes, a failure ... one big failure. They contend that Jesus really came to set up an earthly kingdom - but flunked at that one. Why? Well, because the Jews killed Him. So since He couldn't do what He really wanted to do, God postponed ... sort-of divinely pigeon-holed ... His plan - and set up the church as a contingent, an interim measure.
It wouldnt make jesus a failure if setting up the kingdom was held up in that way, by the free will's of the chosen people originally it was intended for, kind of goes hand in hand with the same biblical defense against the very accusation you make right now in 2 Peter 3:9 'the lord is not slack in his promised returned, but he is longsuffering toward us not wanting any to perish...." (thats a little paraphrased).
As far as prophesy, they generally say that Dan 2 was ... postponed. It never occurs to them that a prophesy with a time-element cannot be postponed: it just fails. All the announcements that the kingdom was "at hand" .. "nigh unto you" ... etc.? Never happened. Premilleninalists are experts at explaining away prophetic failures.

As far as the kingdom, why, they just say it was never set up! Paul was in it - but it was never set up. John was in it - but it was never set up. The Colossians were in it - but it was never set up. It was announced ... it was at hand ... it was nigh ... some then living would not die until it came ... Paul was in it ... John was in it ---> BUT it's not HERE YET! That's premillennialism!

As far as the latter part of your post ("where the tribulation fits in with it and the 1000 year reign of Christ and the bounding of Satan mentioned in revelation 20?"), almost all ... 99% ... of John's apocalyptic vision of things which would "shortly come to pass" because the time was "at hand" DID come to pass. They came to pass during the persecutions by the Jews. They came to pass during the Roman persecutions, which occurred in waves. They came to pass in the siege an destruction of Jerusalem.

I may not know what all of the signs and figures and types mean: some are more apparent than others. But look at what premillennialists do! Postpone the kingdom. Postpone prophesy. Speculate ad infinitum.

Wait!? are you telling me that you believe the 1000 year reign has already occurred? or is that part of the 1% of Revelation you say has not yet occurred. Or are you saying the Kingdom did come, in a spiritual since, and that's all that will ever come from that prophecy?

Yep, it occurred. All the phrase means is "a long time". That's all the phrase "a thousand" or "one thousand" means in apocalyptic literature. Now I'll see what you are telling me:

keep in mind I dont have a side yet, I'm mostly arguing for plausibility of the other side, not my own.
In Rev 1, before a sign or figure was ever introduced, John said, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass ... Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand ... I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos."

I would ask, "Have these things which were to shortly come to pass ... never happened?" Was John in the tribulation right then? Was John a citizen of the kingdom of God as was Paul in Col 1: 13? Does the phrase "at hand" mean 2,000 years and counting? If Daniel prophesied that the kingdom of God would be set up during the days of the Roman emperors - and it didn't occur at that time, does not such a lack of fulfillment constitute a prophetic failure? In fact, is there any way to "postpone" a prophesy with a specific time element attached to it?

as far as Daniel's 70th week is concerned, according to John McArthur in his book 'the second coming' from the billy grahm library "this appears to be another instance the Old Testement prophecy juxtaposes near and far events". I dont consider that unthinkable, and certainly there is much to be fuffiled in that 70th week right? what abomination of desolation was set up yet in the temple? the temple is not even there!

I do believe pre-millinalist do not deny the Kingdom is hear in a sense, but there is still a sense that is yet to come, the more literal earthly kingdom. Even you accept that concept dont you, that the kingdom is hear and yet to come?

My Key problem I would like an answer to though to help me consider your view though in treating the 1,000 years in this particular prophecy is it says Satan is bound in the pit for this 1,000 years. if this age is part of that time how is he bound? hundreds of Christians have been martyred over time and are martyred today. the Pasture Sayeed that is being held captive in a well known Iranian torture prison probably does not think Satan is 'Bound' right now. However long you want to make the 1,000 years out to be, that period of time has to include Satan in the pit.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
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5/8/2013 11:16:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 10:18:59 PM, Sola.Gratia wrote:
At 5/8/2013 1:12:27 PM, Sola.Gratia wrote:


I hold to dispensation Pre-millennialism.. Because I believe that Jesus will return and collect His people before all the trials that will happen for the 7 years and that when He comes everyone will see Him for who He is.. It's being raptured into the sky and going with Jesus to Heaven to be with Him.

who is the tribulation a tribulation for if all the followers of chrsit are taken before it?

Now.....

Concerning predestination "free will" there are actually two sides of free will.. One is out of mere desires and the other is choosing.. So depending on which side you hold to of "free will" will determine if you see predestination related to predestination or not.. I believe it relates together because free will of choosing to obey God can only be because God chose us to allow us to choose to obey Him.. Whereas, if you decide they're not the same and don't relate at all you will have the "desire" free will vs. predestination.. Because desires root from our wants and feelings.. do people desire to obey God on they're own? No. So if they don't then its obvious that predestination cannot go hand in hand with this type of free will.. free will is a change of heart to obey God not because you desire to obey God but because God puts that choice for you to decide to obey Him willfully.. Its clear in Scripture that God already knew who was going to be His even before the world was created and before we were even born.. (See Ephesians 1:3-10 & also see Jeremiah 1:). (Even though all of thee men sinned God still chose them). You see in other stories, Noah and is family God chose to save they were His and the rest of the world was destroyed because it was all corrupt and rebellious to God. (Genesis 6:9-14). Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Lot and his daughters and all the prophets that God used to speak the truth.. Those that were changed it was because God permitted their hearts to be changed and to obey Him.. Everyone else that did not listen were left in open sin and destroyed for their willful disobedience to God.. God had no part in commanding them to rebellion against Him.. They chose to disobey God on their own.. They did not have desire for God and so that's why they remained in their sins..


I meant just premil itself.. Sorry for the confusion..

actually I guess I should be sorry for the confusion I caused. I didnt mean to ask what you view on predestination and free will was specifically, I ment how does you view on those dictate or comply with your view on pre-millinalism? cause depending on what website I have skimmed so far, peoples answer on that changes. I have seen some sites treat pre-millinalism as if it goes with Calvinism and Amillinalism as if it goes with Arminianism and others act as though its vice versa.

I hope this answers your questions.. and I pray that God shows you what you need to know.. Search the Scriptures and test what I am saying in the Scriptures to see if what I am saying is true or not.. Don't just take what people tell you search yourself.. II. Timothy 2:15 commands us to study.. I. John 4 commands us to test the spirits.. so I encourage you to do just this.. :)

Thank you and I will :) but while i'm exploring the topic on my own it helps to see some respected peers of debaters personal perception on the issue.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
annanicole
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5/8/2013 11:22:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"as far as Daniel's 70th week is concerned, according to John McArthur in his book 'the second coming' from the billy grahm library "this appears to be another instance the Old Testement prophecy juxtaposes near and far events". I dont consider that unthinkable, and certainly there is much to be fuffiled in that 70th week right? what abomination of desolation was set up yet in the temple? the temple is not even there!"
The temple was there in AD 70, though - and the Roman soldiers ransacked it and destroyed it. Not only that, but the Jews did some of it themselves, according to Josephus. Premillennialists, I guess, devise some sort of a plan by which the temple will be built AGAIN, just so the abomination of desolation can occur again. Actually, the prophesy in Daniel to which I referred was 2: 44,

"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

"These kings" are generally considered to be the Roman emperors. I've actually had a few millennialists flatly assert that old pagan Rome will have to come back into power, just to satisfy Dan 2: 44. All that trouble and speculation just to cover a 1,000 yr reign.

I do believe pre-millinalist do not deny the Kingdom is hear in a sense, but there is still a sense that is yet to come, the more literal earthly kingdom. Even you accept that concept dont you, that the kingdom is hear and yet to come?

In a sense? I do not know of any "senses" to it. It's either here or not. It either came as prophesied and predicted or it didn't. Biblical prophesy knows nothing about these "senses." I do not accept any concept that the coming of the kingdom is yet future: I do not believe the Bible teaches any distinctions.

My Key problem I would like an answer to though to help me consider your view though in treating the 1,000 years in this particular prophecy is it says Satan is bound in the pit for this 1,000 years. if this age is part of that time how is he bound? hundreds of Christians have been martyred over time and are martyred today. the Pasture Sayeed that is being held captive in a well known Iranian torture prison probably does not think Satan is 'Bound' right now. However long you want to make the 1,000 years out to be, that period of time has to include Satan in the pit.

The binding of Satan refers to Rev 20: 1-2:

I rarely do this prophesy stuff, but I will in this instance:

1. The angel: Christ as the messenger of the gospel
2. Key to the abyss: Signifying Christ's power over death
3. The chain: the design and purpose of the gospel - to prevent Satan from deceiving
4. Bound: Not permitted to deceive, or more specifically the triumph of truth over error
5. 1,000 years: The complete success of the Christian cause in spite of persecutions.

The triumph of Christ had already been set forth in Matt 12: 29 and Luke 11: 21.

There is more, much more to it - but those would be the high points in that verse. Those early verses of Rev 20 concern the complete victory of the church over Jewish and imperial persecutors - not some future schedule knockin' along over thousands of years.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Marauder
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5/9/2013 12:11:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 11:22:22 PM, annanicole wrote:
"as far as Daniel's 70th week is concerned, according to John McArthur in his book 'the second coming' from the billy grahm library "this appears to be another instance the Old Testement prophecy juxtaposes near and far events". I dont consider that unthinkable, and certainly there is much to be fuffiled in that 70th week right? what abomination of desolation was set up yet in the temple? the temple is not even there!"
The temple was there in AD 70, though - and the Roman soldiers ransacked it and destroyed it. Not only that, but the Jews did some of it themselves, according to Josephus. Premillennialists, I guess, devise some sort of a plan by which the temple will be built AGAIN, just so the abomination of desolation can occur again. Actually, the prophesy in Daniel to which I referred was 2: 44,

okay so that is were you place that prophecy being fulfilled.
"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

"These kings" are generally considered to be the Roman emperors. I've actually had a few millennialists flatly assert that old pagan Rome will have to come back into power, just to satisfy Dan 2: 44. All that trouble and speculation just to cover a 1,000 yr reign.

wow, dont see how I could defend the rome coming back thing on there behalf so I'm not going to try cause thats a little out there.
But if I were trying to maintain a literal reading of the 1000 years like the pre-millinalist do, I'd probably read that scripture to mean the spiritual kingdom that is here.

I do believe pre-millinalist do not deny the Kingdom is hear in a sense, but there is still a sense that is yet to come, the more literal earthly kingdom. Even you accept that concept dont you, that the kingdom is hear and yet to come?

In a sense? I do not know of any "senses" to it. It's either here or not. It either came as prophesied and predicted or it didn't. Biblical prophesy knows nothing about these "senses." I do not accept any concept that the coming of the kingdom is yet future: I do not believe the Bible teaches any distinctions.

by sense I mean a spiritual sense as opposed to an earthly sense. obviously the kingdom is here in a spiritual sense. You and I are part of that kingdom that is here right now. but this kingdom is just a religious orginazation, fractured into lots of deninations, thats the kingdom that is here. you indicated earlier you thought the Gospel call to witness to be meaningfull will one day result in its success in taking over the whole world, then our kingdom by your own view will be a literal earthly one that 'is yet to come' right?


My Key problem I would like an answer to though to help me consider your view though in treating the 1,000 years in this particular prophecy is it says Satan is bound in the pit for this 1,000 years. if this age is part of that time how is he bound? hundreds of Christians have been martyred over time and are martyred today. the Pasture Sayeed that is being held captive in a well known Iranian torture prison probably does not think Satan is 'Bound' right now. However long you want to make the 1,000 years out to be, that period of time has to include Satan in the pit.

The binding of Satan refers to Rev 20: 1-2:

I rarely do this prophesy stuff, but I will in this instance:

1. The angel: Christ as the messenger of the gospel
2. Key to the abyss: Signifying Christ's power over death
3. The chain: the design and purpose of the gospel - to prevent Satan from deceiving
4. Bound: Not permitted to deceive, or more specifically the triumph of truth over error

But does he not clearly still succeed a deceiving? Sin abounds, we have a political party controling the nations that promotes Sodomy and child sacrifice to the godess of female choice, pedofiles cannot be legally counciled to reform there behavior, and there are even Christians I see falling for these lies.

I could go on with other observations of some very negative parts of the state of the world but basically it seems Satan still has a foot hold for deception.
5. 1,000 years: The complete success of the Christian cause in spite of persecutions.

The triumph of Christ had already been set forth in Matt 12: 29 and Luke 11: 21.

There is more, much more to it - but those would be the high points in that verse. Those early verses of Rev 20 concern the complete victory of the church over Jewish and imperial persecutors - not some future schedule knockin' along over thousands of years.

So when will 'death itself' be done away with and thrown into the lake of fire? and is the prophecy about Gog and Magog fulfilled already too?
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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5/9/2013 10:20:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 6:41:32 AM, jharry wrote:
Amillennialism

When Jesus comes for His Church it's over, done.

Yep
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."