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Christian Universalism

rjohnson741
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5/7/2013 2:06:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Christian Universalism should be an acceptable view in the church. Christian Universalism is the belief that all mankind will be saved through Jesus Christ. Christian Universalists base their beliefs on these two Biblical statements: Statement 1---God has agape love for all mankind and desires their salvation(1Timothy 2:4 Arminian Theology). Statement 2---God is sovereign and all powerful, therefore God will accomplish all of His desires(55:11 Calvinist Theology). If God desires the salvation of all mankind(Statement 1), and He has the power through love to accomplish that desire(Statement 2), then it stands to reason God will save everyone. Furthermore, if Statement 1 is a true Biblical statement, and Statement 2 is a true Biblical statement, why is it considered heretical for the Universalist to believe in both of these true Biblical statements? This is one of the many reasos I believe in Christian Universalism or the salvation of everyone through Jesus Christ. Also, if Statements 1 and 2 are both Biblical statements, then as a matter of logic, there must be scriptures to support the conjunction of these two Biblical statements. Here is a list of some of those scriptures: Psalm 22:27-28, Psalm 66:3-4, Psalm 145:8-10, Isaiah 25:6-8, Isaiah 45:22-24, John 12:32, Romans 5:18-19, Romans 14:11, 1John 2:2, 1John 4:14, Colossians 1:16-20, 1Timothy 4:9-11, Revelation 5:13, and the Consummation---This is when Jesus Christ abolishes death by vivifying everyone(make alive), puts down His enemies and destroys them by making them His friends(reconciliation), then subjects Himself and everything to God. With death abolished and everyone subjected to God, there is no longer any separation between God and man. God can now become All in all(1Corinthians 15:22-28). There are many more scriptures to support the salvation of everyone, but read these scriptures first, and I will add more later.
rjohnson741
Posts: 215
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5/8/2013 8:35:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 3:13:56 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
Why send prophets then ?!

Because Jesus Christ commands us as christians to preach the gospel.
annanicole
Posts: 19,793
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5/8/2013 9:35:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
You might read the Campbell-Skinner Debate on the subject. I haven't read it in years, and I do not remember the major arguments. I do recall that Mr. Campbell seemed to be the intellectual superior of Mr. Skinner, but that's about it.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
v3nesl
Posts: 4,505
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5/8/2013 9:38:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I wish I could remember who, but one of the 20th century great Christian thinkers said (as I recall it) - "if free will is really free, universalism must remain a hope and not a doctrine"
This space for rent.
rjohnson741
Posts: 215
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5/8/2013 11:30:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 9:38:03 AM, v3nesl wrote:
I wish I could remember who, but one of the 20th century great Christian thinkers said (as I recall it) - "if free will is really free, universalism must remain a hope and not a doctrine"

As long as humans can make a choice or decision, Christian Universalism is a logical and Biblical doctrine.
annanicole
Posts: 19,793
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5/8/2013 12:44:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It seems that the Universalist has a tough time with the rich man and Lazarus of Luke 16:

"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

What does a Universalist teach? That folks like the rich man go to a place of torment for awhile - then are let out?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
v3nesl
Posts: 4,505
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5/8/2013 1:08:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 11:30:14 AM, rjohnson741 wrote:
At 5/8/2013 9:38:03 AM, v3nesl wrote:
I wish I could remember who, but one of the 20th century great Christian thinkers said (as I recall it) - "if free will is really free, universalism must remain a hope and not a doctrine"

As long as humans can make a choice or decision, Christian Universalism is a logical and Biblical doctrine.

It also says (Jesus said!) - "These shall go away to everlasting punishment"

I can't go along with getting so doctrinal that you forget this is real stuff we're talking about. We'd all like to hope God fixes everything by the time it's all done, and there are major hints of that, but not enough to get all up in anybody's face with.
This space for rent.
rjohnson741
Posts: 215
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5/8/2013 1:51:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 12:44:25 PM, annanicole wrote:
It seems that the Universalist has a tough time with the rich man and Lazarus of Luke 16:

"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

What does a Universalist teach? That folks like the rich man go to a place of torment for awhile - then are let out?

Why should Universalists or anyone else have a tough time with the rich man and Lazarus of Luke 16? Where does this parable say anything about the rich man being eternally tormented? This parable is not talking about the eternal destinies of the rich man and lazarus or anyone else for that matter. Besides, the rich man is still called a Son by Abraham(Luke 16:25). It doesn't seem logical that God would eternally torment one of His own Sons.
rjohnson741
Posts: 215
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5/8/2013 2:08:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 1:08:59 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 5/8/2013 11:30:14 AM, rjohnson741 wrote:
At 5/8/2013 9:38:03 AM, v3nesl wrote:
I wish I could remember who, but one of the 20th century great Christian thinkers said (as I recall it) - "if free will is really free, universalism must remain a hope and not a doctrine"

As long as humans can make a choice or decision, Christian Universalism is a logical and Biblical doctrine.

It also says (Jesus said!) - "These shall go away to everlasting punishment"

I can't go along with getting so doctrinal that you forget this is real stuff we're talking about. We'd all like to hope God fixes everything by the time it's all done, and there are major hints of that, but not enough to get all up in anybody's face with.

A literal translation reads 'And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian' Matthew 25:46 Concordant Literal New Testament. The english word eternal is traced back to Latin. The english word eon can be traced back to the Greek word aion which means age. Check a good dictionary to confirm this. The Bible of course was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, not Latin. The punishment is not forever.
v3nesl
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5/8/2013 2:32:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 2:08:33 PM, rjohnson741 wrote:
At 5/8/2013 1:08:59 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 5/8/2013 11:30:14 AM, rjohnson741 wrote:
At 5/8/2013 9:38:03 AM, v3nesl wrote:
I wish I could remember who, but one of the 20th century great Christian thinkers said (as I recall it) - "if free will is really free, universalism must remain a hope and not a doctrine"

As long as humans can make a choice or decision, Christian Universalism is a logical and Biblical doctrine.

It also says (Jesus said!) - "These shall go away to everlasting punishment"

I can't go along with getting so doctrinal that you forget this is real stuff we're talking about. We'd all like to hope God fixes everything by the time it's all done, and there are major hints of that, but not enough to get all up in anybody's face with.

A literal translation reads 'And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian' Matthew 25:46 Concordant Literal New Testament. The english word eternal is traced back to Latin. The english word eon can be traced back to the Greek word aion which means age. Check a good dictionary to confirm this. The Bible of course was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, not Latin. The punishment is not forever.

And Jesus didn't say it in greek, so there's not really much proof in esoteric word studies. The problem is that if the punishment is not forever, neither is the life, the intended symmetry is clear.
This space for rent.
rjohnson741
Posts: 215
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5/8/2013 3:26:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 2:32:23 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 5/8/2013 2:08:33 PM, rjohnson741 wrote:
At 5/8/2013 1:08:59 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 5/8/2013 11:30:14 AM, rjohnson741 wrote:
At 5/8/2013 9:38:03 AM, v3nesl wrote:
I wish I could remember who, but one of the 20th century great Christian thinkers said (as I recall it) - "if free will is really free, universalism must remain a hope and not a doctrine"

As long as humans can make a choice or decision, Christian Universalism is a logical and Biblical doctrine.

It also says (Jesus said!) - "These shall go away to everlasting punishment"

I can't go along with getting so doctrinal that you forget this is real stuff we're talking about. We'd all like to hope God fixes everything by the time it's all done, and there are major hints of that, but not enough to get all up in anybody's face with.

A literal translation reads 'And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian' Matthew 25:46 Concordant Literal New Testament. The english word eternal is traced back to Latin. The english word eon can be traced back to the Greek word aion which means age. Check a good dictionary to confirm this. The Bible of course was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, not Latin. The punishment is not forever.

And Jesus didn't say it in greek, so there's not really much proof in esoteric word studies. The problem is that if the punishment is not forever, neither is the life, the intended symmetry is clear.

Your logic is if the eternal/eonian punishment of the goats(unbelievers) comes to an end, then by definition the eternal/eonian life of the sheep(believers) must come to an end as well. Your logic is in fact correct. The eternal/eonian life of the believer mentioned in Matthew 25:46 and John 3:16 does in fact come to an end. That's because believers living forever is not contingent on eternal/eonian life. Believers and everyone else will live forever when they are made alive[G2227-Zoopoieo] and put on immortality[G110-Athanasia] at The Consummation(1Corinthians 15:22-23, 1Corinthians 15:53-55). Besides, if receiving eternal life means living forever as english speaking understand eternal, why do believers still die? Eternal/eonian life is the special life that God gives believers to enjoy now---'And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent' John 17:3. Believers get to enjoy a life of spiritual blessings and a personal relationship with God now and in the ages or eons to come.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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5/8/2013 11:26:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 11:30:14 AM, rjohnson741 wrote:
At 5/8/2013 9:38:03 AM, v3nesl wrote:
I wish I could remember who, but one of the 20th century great Christian thinkers said (as I recall it) - "if free will is really free, universalism must remain a hope and not a doctrine"

As long as humans can make a choice or decision, Christian Universalism is a logical and Biblical doctrine.

could you explain this further? How? if Universalism is that all will be saved without fail eventually no matter what, then humans being able to make choices has nothing to do with it being logical and is even the single most abrasive thing to the doctrine if those choices and decisions are really there own. For if humans can potentially freely choose away from God, then they are free to not be included in those who are universally saved.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
rjohnson741
Posts: 215
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5/9/2013 12:22:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 11:26:10 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 5/8/2013 11:30:14 AM, rjohnson741 wrote:
At 5/8/2013 9:38:03 AM, v3nesl wrote:
I wish I could remember who, but one of the 20th century great Christian thinkers said (as I recall it) - "if free will is really free, universalism must remain a hope and not a doctrine"

As long as humans can make a choice or decision, Christian Universalism is a logical and Biblical doctrine.

could you explain this further? How? if Universalism is that all will be saved without fail eventually no matter what, then humans being able to make choices has nothing to do with it being logical and is even the single most abrasive thing to the doctrine if those choices and decisions are really there own. For if humans can potentially freely choose away from God, then they are free to not be included in those who are universally saved.

Before you became a christan, you rejected God. Yet God drew Himself to you(John 12:32). Through God's goodness, you voluntary chose to repent and accept Christ. Did God violate your will when you repented and accepted Christ? Of course not. But it was God's goodness that influenced your choice or decision to repenrt(Romans 2:4). As long as man has the ability to choose, he can make the choice or decision to repent and come to Christ. But according to the church, man can't use that ability to choose to repent after he dies, because his fate is sealed upon death. But where are the scriptures that say there is no hope of repentance after death? I can find no such scriptures. This is why the gates of New Jerusalem are always open(Revelation 21:25), just as the doors of the church are always open for sinners today. And the invitation to come to Christ continues in the ages or eons to come(Revelation 22:17). There is no expiration date on this invitation, because as stated earlier, the gates of New Jerusalem are always open(Revelation 21:25). Are you saying those on the outside of the church(unbelievers) will reject this invitation forever? Are you saying the self will of man can resist and reject for all eternity, the love of an All Powerful, and All Loving God who can demonstrate that love to them in an endless array of ways? If God can draw Saul of Tarsus, who called himself the chief of sinners(1Timothy 1:15), and you and me to Himself, why do you believe God can't draw all men to Himself? The Bible says that's exactly what He will do---'And I if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me' John 12:32. Did God force you or me to come to Him? Of course not. Yet God still drew us to Himself and we willingly came to Him. Why do you believe God can't do that for everyone? You are underestimating the power of the blood of Christ. God will draw all mankind to Himself through His love and grace expressed in the power of the cross, just as He did for you and me and other believers. Blessings to you.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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5/9/2013 11:27:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 12:22:38 AM, rjohnson741 wrote:

Before you became a christan, you rejected God. Yet God drew Himself to you(John 12:32). Through God's goodness, you voluntary chose to repent and accept Christ. Did God violate your will when you repented and accepted Christ? Of course not. But it was God's goodness that influenced your choice or decision to repenrt(Romans 2:4).

Yeah but Prevenint Grace though it is something that influences us toward God, it does not pull us in such a way it completely dictates the outcome of our choice, it is an influence of our choice, it is not the soul deciding factor to our choice. Responsibility for our choices ultimately are left to lie with us.

As long as man has the ability to choose, he can make the choice or decision to repent and come to Christ. But according to the church, man can't use that ability to choose to repent after he dies, because his fate is sealed upon death. But where are the scriptures that say there is no hope of repentance after death? I can find no such scriptures. This is why the gates of New Jerusalem are always open(Revelation 21:25), just as the doors of the church are always open for sinners today. And the invitation to come to Christ continues in the ages or eons to come(Revelation 22:17). There is no expiration date on this invitation, because as stated earlier, the gates of New Jerusalem are always open(Revelation 21:25). Are you saying those on the outside of the church(unbelievers) will reject this invitation forever? Are you saying the self will of man can resist and reject for all eternity, the love of an All Powerful, and All Loving God who can demonstrate that love to them in an endless array of ways?

To be honest I am very open minded to the principle that perhaps after death there will still be some means of salvation for the lost like you say, however whatever means that is it is like that other guy said, salvation for all those after death can only be a hope for the future, not a determined eventual future.

I think its part of the nature of Sin and how lost people get into it that some could potentially choose to reject God forever even if God offer"s them grace forever, and the only place they will ever want to be is in Hell far away from the God they want no part of. That is hard to fathom for people like us who have already accepted God"s grace, and cant imagine not wanting to be with God. God is the only thing that we have discovered truly can fulfill our needs and thirst, so we ask how could those who do not believe in God, not want to turn back toward him once there in Hell suffering, and know they were wrong when they were alive.

C.S. Lewis put it though in his book "the Great Divorce" that those in Hell have pretty much lost all there humanity, and that if they have a spark of that humanity left than the Angels could blow on that ember until they could "turn solid" and back toward God, but if there are no embers left then there is no good blowing on the ashes. And so the people in Hell are simply not going to want to come to Heaven. A person can become so lost that all they are capable of is misery and Hell is the only place they will ever find that they can call home, because in Heaven is a place of only Joy, void of misery.

If God can draw Saul of Tarsus, who called himself the chief of sinners(1Timothy 1:15), and you and me to Himself, why do you believe God can't draw all men to Himself? The Bible says that's exactly what He will do---'And I if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me' John 12:32. Did God force you or me to come to Him? Of course not. Yet God still drew us to Himself and we willingly came to Him. Why do you believe God can't do that for everyone? You are underestimating the power of the blood of Christ. God will draw all mankind to Himself through His love and grace expressed in the power of the cross, just as He did for you and me and other believers. Blessings to you.

Concerning John 12:32, I think that is an very forced used of that passage to try and make it apply to this. This amounts to saying what we already agree on, that we are all "influenced" by God through Previenent Grace. Non-universalist-non-Calvinist accept that God pulls all toward himself. What we claim however is that influence does not control our actions, it simply makes the choice available.
You are undermining God"s love by trying to define it through God"s Sovereignty, when you ought to define his Sovereignty through his love. Yes Jesus could have everyone just bow to him at the snap of a finger, but what would be the point. Because God is the God of the greatest love there can be imagined, he would leave us free to choose to turn to his influence or to turn away, for God would have not created anything that is really loving him and worshiping him back when it moves purely by his own puppet strings and not of its own accord.
When you were a child and played with your toys in your room, you could make them say anything and do whatever you wanted them too, and as much life as your imagination could give them though, you could never say it was the same as having friends. Real human friends care for you on there own accord, not because you willed them to care for you, and so they are better to hang out with than your collection of action figures.
God is powerfull enough and loving enough to not have to be content with playing with "toys". God created beings like us, who are far more than Toys, but sentient beings that can enter into a real relationship with him.
Your question is loaded when you ask "why do you not believe in a God that can do that for everyone?" and does not actually address the issue at hand. Sure I believe God can give donuts to everyone in a classroom full of students, but just because he has the power to provide it for all does not mean all will accept and eat the donut.
You have repeatedly said you believe you and I were not forced into loving God. If that is so then you must admit we could have chosen otherwise, we could have rejected God to this day. To claim otherwise would by definition mean we were forced.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
rjohnson741
Posts: 215
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5/10/2013 12:47:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 11:27:43 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 5/9/2013 12:22:38 AM, rjohnson741 wrote:

Before you became a christan, you rejected God. Yet God drew Himself to you(John 12:32). Through God's goodness, you voluntary chose to repent and accept Christ. Did God violate your will when you repented and accepted Christ? Of course not. But it was God's goodness that influenced your choice or decision to repenrt(Romans 2:4).

Yeah but Prevenint Grace though it is something that influences us toward God, it does not pull us in such a way it completely dictates the outcome of our choice, it is an influence of our choice, it is not the soul deciding factor to our choice. Responsibility for our choices ultimately are left to lie with us.

As long as man has the ability to choose, he can make the choice or decision to repent and come to Christ. But according to the church, man can't use that ability to choose to repent after he dies, because his fate is sealed upon death. But where are the scriptures that say there is no hope of repentance after death? I can find no such scriptures. This is why the gates of New Jerusalem are always open(Revelation 21:25), just as the doors of the church are always open for sinners today. And the invitation to come to Christ continues in the ages or eons to come(Revelation 22:17). There is no expiration date on this invitation, because as stated earlier, the gates of New Jerusalem are always open(Revelation 21:25). Are you saying those on the outside of the church(unbelievers) will reject this invitation forever? Are you saying the self will of man can resist and reject for all eternity, the love of an All Powerful, and All Loving God who can demonstrate that love to them in an endless array of ways?

To be honest I am very open minded to the principle that perhaps after death there will still be some means of salvation for the lost like you say, however whatever means that is it is like that other guy said, salvation for all those after death can only be a hope for the future, not a determined eventual future.

I think its part of the nature of Sin and how lost people get into it that some could potentially choose to reject God forever even if God offer"s them grace forever, and the only place they will ever want to be is in Hell far away from the God they want no part of. That is hard to fathom for people like us who have already accepted God"s grace, and cant imagine not wanting to be with God. God is the only thing that we have discovered truly can fulfill our needs and thirst, so we ask how could those who do not believe in God, not want to turn back toward him once there in Hell suffering, and know they were wrong when they were alive.

C.S. Lewis put it though in his book "the Great Divorce" that those in Hell have pretty much lost all there humanity, and that if they have a spark of that humanity left than the Angels could blow on that ember until they could "turn solid" and back toward God, but if there are no embers left then there is no good blowing on the ashes. And so the people in Hell are simply not going to want to come to Heaven. A person can become so lost that all they are capable of is misery and Hell is the only place they will ever find that they can call home, because in Heaven is a place of only Joy, void of misery.


If God can draw Saul of Tarsus, who called himself the chief of sinners(1Timothy 1:15), and you and me to Himself, why do you believe God can't draw all men to Himself? The Bible says that's exactly what He will do---'And I if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me' John 12:32. Did God force you or me to come to Him? Of course not. Yet God still drew us to Himself and we willingly came to Him. Why do you believe God can't do that for everyone? You are underestimating the power of the blood of Christ. God will draw all mankind to Himself through His love and grace expressed in the power of the cross, just as He did for you and me and other believers. Blessings to you.

Concerning John 12:32, I think that is an very forced used of that passage to try and make it apply to this. This amounts to saying what we already agree on, that we are all "influenced" by God through Previenent Grace. Non-universalist-non-Calvinist accept that God pulls all toward himself. What we claim however is that influence does not control our actions, it simply makes the choice available.
You are undermining God"s love by trying to define it through God"s Sovereignty, when you ought to define his Sovereignty through his love. Yes Jesus could have everyone just bow to him at the snap of a finger, but what would be the point. Because God is the God of the greatest love there can be imagined, he would leave us free to choose to turn to his influence or to turn away, for God would have not created anything that is really loving him and worshiping him back when it moves purely by his own puppet strings and not of its own accord.
When you were a child and played with your toys in your room, you could make them say anything and do whatever you wanted them too, and as much life as your imagination could give them though, you could never say it was the same as having friends. Real human friends care for you on there own accord, not because you willed them to care for you, and so they are better to hang out with than your collection of action figures.
God is powerfull enough and loving enough to not have to be content with playing with "toys". God created beings like us, who are far more than Toys, but sentient beings that can enter into a real relationship with him.
Your question is loaded when you ask "why do you not believe in a God that can do that for everyone?" and does not actually address the issue at hand. Sure I believe God can give donuts to everyone in a classroom full of students, but just because he has the power to provide it for all does not mean all will accept and eat the donut.
You have repeatedly said you believe you and I were not forced into loving God. If that is so then you must admit we could have chosen otherwise, we could have rejected God to this day. To claim otherwise would by definition mean we were forced.

Thanks for your thought provoking reply. You seem to be saying that once a person is in hell or the lake of fire they will choose to remain there and choose to reject God for all eternity because any vestige of their humanity is lost. But that surely is speculation on your part. C.S Lewis also said the gates of hell are locked from the inside. If that is true and those in hell still have free will, how do you know they won't choose to leave in eternity future. This is why I believe the gates of New Jerusalem which is the church are always open(Revelation 21:25). Notice the invitation of Revelation 22:17--'And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely'. The water of life is inside the city of New Jerusalem(Revelation 22:1-2). Who is this invitation for? This invitation isn't for the church or believers, because the Spirit which is Jesus Christ and the bride which is the church are proclaiming this invitation together. This invitation is for those on the outside of the city. And whose on the outside?---'Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying' Revelation 22:15 NASB. These are the people who are in the lake of fire(Revelation 21:8). This is who the invitation of Revelation 22:17 is for. Yes, those in the lake of fire have rejected God. But if you believe in free will, how can you possibly say they will always reject God? After all before we became believers, we rejected God. And I will say this again, there are no scriptures that say a person can't repent after death and come
rjohnson741
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5/10/2013 1:09:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 1:00:31 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Christian Universalists are the only Christians I take seriously.

Thanks!! I just believe the salvation of everyone is the logical and Biblical outcome of God's love for all(Arminianism) and God's sovereignty over all(Calvinism). Blessings to you.
annanicole
Posts: 19,793
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5/10/2013 1:09:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 1:00:31 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Christian Universalists are the only Christians I take seriously.

I'm sure that gives them a warm feeling of validation.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Composer
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5/10/2013 1:33:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
No disbeliever need concern themselves for any reason according to numerous Story book promises e.g. -

The Lord of the PROMISE is not slow, as some regard Slowness, but " is patient towards us, not wishing that any one should perish, " but that all should come to Reformation. (2 Pet. 3: 9) E. Diaglott by B. Wilson

cf.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pet. 3:9) ASV Story book

So IF Story book gods wishes can come true it isn't willing that ANY should perish!

Combine that wish with the Story book command to give ' unlimited forgiveness ' we again can rest assured we don't have to do a damn thing! LOL!

33tn Or "seventy times seven," i.e., an unlimited number of times. See L&N 60.74 and 60.77 for the two possible translations of the phrase. (Re: Forgiveness - Matt. 18:22) NET Story book

Your vindicated mentor moi!
annanicole
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5/10/2013 1:50:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Anna: At 5/8/2013 12:44:25 PM, annanicole wrote:
It seems that the Universalist has a tough time with the rich man and Lazarus of Luke 16:

"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

What does a Universalist teach? That folks like the rich man go to a place of torment for awhile - then are let out?

RJohnson: Why should Universalists or anyone else have a tough time with the rich man and Lazarus of Luke 16?

Anna: Well, for one thing, they have a tough time dealing with the "great gulf".

RJohnson: Where does this parable say anything about the rich man being eternally tormented?

Anna: It doesn't. It simply relates that upon death, the rich man immediately when to a place where he was tormented.

RJohnson: This parable is not talking about the eternal destinies of the rich man and lazarus or anyone else for that matter.

Anna: Who said it is a parable? It certain doesn't bear the usual characteristics of a parable.

RJohnson: Besides, the rich man is still called a Son by Abraham(Luke 16:25). It doesn't seem logical that God would eternally torment one of His own Sons.

Anna: "Son" and "brethren" were terms variously used in acknowledgement of Jewish relations - and also to denote a superior or inferior position. Peter addressed lost Jews as "brethren" ... yeah, brethren in Judaism. Saul called Jesus "Lord" before he was saved. And the rich man was called "Son" by Abraham. The use of these terms means nothing - and in Luke 16, the use of "Son" certainly does not mean that a child of God is sitting in torment after death.

I repeat the question, since it was never answered: "What does a Universalist teach? That folks like the rich man go to a place of torment for awhile - then are let out?"
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Composer
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5/10/2013 3:00:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Combine that wish with the Story book command to give ' unlimited forgiveness ' we again can rest assured we don't have to do a damn thing! LOL!

33tn Or "seventy times seven," i.e., an unlimited number of times. See L&N 60.74 and 60.77 for the two possible translations of the phrase. (Re: Forgiveness - Matt. 18:22) NET Story book

The Story book rich-man didn't need to worry a damn either IF the command of Unlimited forgiveness (Matt. 18:22) NET Footnotes alternative Translation is genuine in Story book Land?

Your vindicated mentor moi!
annanicole
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5/10/2013 4:08:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Aren't you the same one who exposed yourself by flippantly claiming that the Westcott-Hort Greek text was somehow a Bible translation - and then went off on a Dogknox-style rant based upon your own ignorance of the subject? FYI, the Textus Receptus, the Westcott-Hort Greek text, Nestles Greek text, and all the rest are not translations of anything. They can't contain mistranslations because they aren't translations.

I said the Emphatic Lie-a-lot is a poor translation. Indeed it is! Whether it or any other translation is based upon Westcott-Hort is irrelevant. You said that I was inconsistent because my preference, the American Standard, is also based upon the Westcott-Hort translation. That was your reasoning - and you don't know a Greek text from an English translation. No way you can get out of it - or explain it. I'm sure you'd rather forget it. No wonder you are the king of copy and pastes: you don't know enough to type out your own sentences. Poor old Dogknox types his own answers and thus exposes his ignorance. You copy and paste to hide yours.

Anybody who can't do any better than that doesn't warrant an answer until they have done some studying.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Composer
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5/10/2013 6:17:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 4:08:09 AM, annanicole wrote:
Aren't you the same one who exposed yourself by flippantly claiming that the Westcott-Hort Greek text was somehow a Bible translation - and then went off on a Dogknox-style rant based upon your own ignorance of the subject? FYI, the Textus Receptus, the Westcott-Hort Greek text, Nestles Greek text, and all the rest are not translations of anything. They can't contain mistranslations because they aren't translations.

Story book Jebus didn't speak Greek, but being an eternal jew boy spoke Hebrew & Aramaic; so anything written relating to him in Greek of what it supposedly said, is a Translation FROM Hebrew & Aramaic Translated to Greek!

Westcott & Hort are merely playing with a Translation and a Translation based upon illegitimate hearsay!

At 5/10/2013 4:08:09 AM, annanicole wrote:
I said the Emphatic Lie-a-lot is a poor translation. Indeed it is!
Unfortunately for you again, your legitimate supportive evidence again remains a constant zero!

You can't even speak Greek but try to tell others that do, don't translate it according to your inept wishes, LOL, LMAO at YOU!

At 5/10/2013 4:08:09 AM, annanicole wrote:
Whether it or any other translation is based upon Westcott-Hort is irrelevant. You said that I was inconsistent because my preference, the American Standard, is also based upon the Westcott-Hort translation. That was your reasoning - and you don't know a Greek text from an English translation. No way you can get out of it - or explain it. I'm sure you'd rather forget it. No wonder you are the king of copy and pastes: you don't know enough to type out your own sentences. Poor old Dogknox types his own answers and thus exposes his ignorance. You copy and paste to hide yours.

Nothing to forget on my part & that's YOUR ongoing problem you inept dimwit & another Story book jebus the eternal jew boy reject!

YOU provide your empty opinions; whilst conversely I provide the legitimate evidence, always fatal to your Johnny Come Lately trinitarian cause!

At 5/10/2013 4:08:09 AM, annanicole wrote:
Anybody who can't do any better than that doesn't warrant an answer until they have done some studying.
I only answer you because your opinions are fundamentally B_shi_t and spurious and my benevolence as a 51 year successful Cult buster causes me to often shed pity on dupes & intellectual midgets like you!

IF you actually ever did any honest study; you would immediately recognise your ideology is a Johnny Come lately one, rejected by the Earliest & Original believers.

"The propositions constitutive of the dogma of the Trinity were not drawn from the New Testament and could not be expressed in New Testament terms. They were the products of reason speculating on a revelation to faith. . . they were only formed through centuries of effort, only elaborated by the aid of the conceptions and formulated in the terms of Greek and Roman metaphysics." (Source: Encyclopedia Britannica) I

"At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian"It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the New Testament and other early Christian writings" (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, ed. James Hastings, 1922, Vol. 12, p. 461). / #msg623399 (Fatal to trinitarians)

The Trinity "is not directly and immediately the Word of God" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIV, p. 304).

Hence you are pandering to the words of men!

You also refuse to debate me against my 2 analogies (Father Xmas & Pure Orange Juice) because again your ideology is decimated by them and you have nothing of value to ever come close to legitimately denying them as being entirely fatal to your Cult cause.

Your entirely vindicated and benevolent mentor moi!
v3nesl
Posts: 4,505
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5/10/2013 7:44:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 3:00:40 AM, Composer wrote:
Combine that wish with the Story book command to give ' unlimited forgiveness ' we again can rest assured we don't have to do a damn thing! LOL!


Well, a version of universalism that I find very appealing is that of George MacDonald. His idea is simply that God never ever gives up, on anybody, not even the devil. So there's a hell, and there's punishment, but it's all for a purpose and God will ultimately outlast our rebellion.

As C.S. Lewis points out, an authority perfect in love is more terrifying than an evil person. The enemy will have his price, some way you can get him to leave you alone, even if it's by death. But the God who loves you - there's no escaping him, he will never compromise until you are where you need to be. In the end you will be glad, but it may be hell getting there.
This space for rent.
annanicole
Posts: 19,793
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5/10/2013 11:50:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
LMAO @ Composer, the atheist version of Dogknox, STILL CLINGING to his mistake that Westcott/Hort is a translation - in a vain attempt to save face.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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5/10/2013 11:51:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 12:47:18 AM, rjohnson741 wrote:

Thanks for your thought provoking reply. You seem to be saying that once a person is in hell or the lake of fire they will choose to remain there and choose to reject God for all eternity because any vestige of their humanity is lost. But that surely is speculation on your part. C.S Lewis also said the gates of hell are locked from the inside. If that is true and those in hell still have free will, how do you know they won't choose to leave in eternity future. This is why I believe the gates of New Jerusalem which is the church are always open(Revelation 21:25). Notice the invitation of Revelation 22:17--'And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely'. The water of life is inside the city of New Jerusalem(Revelation 22:1-2). Who is this invitation for? This invitation isn't for the church or believers, because the Spirit which is Jesus Christ and the bride which is the church are proclaiming this invitation together. This invitation is for those on the outside of the city. And whose on the outside?---'Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying' Revelation 22:15 NASB. These are the people who are in the lake of fire(Revelation 21:8). This is who the invitation of Revelation 22:17 is for. Yes, those in the lake of fire have rejected God. But if you believe in free will, how can you possibly say they will always reject God? After all before we became believers, we rejected God.

It's worth bringing up in the conversation the fact that the same word for the eternity spoken of for Hell in the bible is the same term spoken of for our stay in Heaven. Aion.

by that same extension consider this, your being just as speculative as you claim I am being when you claim they eventually will choose to come to God. the best your arguments can make from the scriptures you quote is that the invitation will always remain there. It does not logically follow from that the invitation will ever be taken. Your thinking like an atheist does when you think just because there is an infinite amount of time, all possibilities must come to fruition within it. but the choice to come to God is not something inevitable like that, even given infinite time, and and infinite invitation. I would argue that because you and I once in Heaven are never going to reject the God we accept now ever again, we will be with him forever, then you have to say those in Hell will be equally capable of rejecting him forever as we are capable of choosing him forever.

Cause after all if just because enough million years go by a damned soul in Hell is bound to change his mind about God, and be allowed in Heaven, then I in Heaven would be said to inevitably end up rejecting God though I came to Heaven loving him because after all, if enough million years passed I'm bound to eventually change my perspective. and if this is the case then Heaven is just as flawed as earth for it is not free of people capable of being wicked such as me.

But we will not be capable of changing our minds about God ONCE we are in Heaven. If we have not died to ourselves then we would not have given eternal life to exist in Heaven John 12: 24-25. So Heaven will be completely free of Hate, Death, Jealousy, Pride, and sin of any sort. if it was not free from those things it would not be Heaven. So if we will clearly only worship God forever once in Heaven, is it not as a natural consequence of that mean those in Hell will only ever run away from God, lose that spark of humanity and become only ashes?
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.