Total Posts:30|Showing Posts:1-30
Jump to topic:

Eternal Life

slo1
Posts: 4,308
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/7/2013 3:54:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
One universal aspect of all the major religions is the concept that there is something after death of ourselves in our current state.

Buhdists believe you are reincarnated and come until you reach enlightenment and spend eternity in bliss.

Hindu you just keep coming back to earth, each time in a better or worse position depending upon how you acted in the previous life, karma.

The three oldest Abrahamic religions Jewish, Christianity, & Islam and the various offshoots all have a version of heaven and hell.

The nature of "afterlife" is extremely different between the religions, but they all have it. Do they all have it as a belief because there is some sort of universal truth there or is it just a fear of death and the possibility once your dead your consciousness and you are dead?

I have to imagine I'm in the minority, while I don't want to die, it seems very peaceful to have one shot at life/consciousness and then recycle my elements back to the universe and be done with it versus having to live forever in some sort of fashion. Eternity seems very dreary to me.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/7/2013 4:01:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 3:54:02 PM, slo1 wrote:
One universal aspect of all the major religions is the concept that there is something after death of ourselves in our current state.

Buhdists believe you are reincarnated and come until you reach enlightenment and spend eternity in bliss.

Hindu you just keep coming back to earth, each time in a better or worse position depending upon how you acted in the previous life, karma.

The three oldest Abrahamic religions Jewish, Christianity, & Islam and the various offshoots all have a version of heaven and hell.

The nature of "afterlife" is extremely different between the religions, but they all have it. Do they all have it as a belief because there is some sort of universal truth there or is it just a fear of death and the possibility once your dead your consciousness and you are dead?

I have to imagine I'm in the minority, while I don't want to die, it seems very peaceful to have one shot at life/consciousness and then recycle my elements back to the universe and be done with it versus having to live forever in some sort of fashion. Eternity seems very dreary to me.

"is it just a fear of death and the possibility once your dead your consciousness and you are dead?"

This, most likely. An animal in the woods is not smart enough to know that it does not matter what it does, it is doomed to death. For this reason, it has a reason to keep wanting to survive because it is not smart enough to know its true nature. Humans may be like a freak of nature. Its almost as if we were not "supposed" to find out that biological beings die. Because we figured it out, we have no reason to live. Our bodies will not allow this, as its function is to survive. It forces conscious beings to believe in an afterlife, so they have a reason to keep going. The biology must continue.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/7/2013 4:27:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Eternity seems very dreary to me."

I think you are probably in the minority on that one.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Hvaniratha
Posts: 37
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/7/2013 4:38:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
" [...] and the creatures of Ahriman will perish at the time when the future existence occurs, and that also is eternity. "
-- Bundahishn

Eternity is for all of Ohrmazd's creations humans. If Ohrmazd wants all humans to be eternal, then it must be a good thing, otherwise Ohrmazd would not subject us to it.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/7/2013 7:51:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 3:54:02 PM, slo1 wrote:
Do they all have it as a belief because there is some sort of universal truth there or is it just a fear of death and the possibility once your dead your consciousness and you are dead?

I think they all have it because there wouldn't be much point in bothering with religion unless there were an after life of some sort. After all, apart from an after life, we're all basically in the same boat.

I don't think Judaism has always had a robust belief in an afterlife, though. Their hope wasn't in individual salvation (or whatever you want to call it), but in the collective well-being of their race and their offspring. All the promises God made to them early on had to do with the prosperity of their nation as a whole. That's what they pinned their hopes on. I don't think it was until around the time of the Babylonian exile that they developed a belief in a resurrection. But that's speculative.

Some version of Buddhism don't worry about reincarnation or nirvana, either. Buddhism, in its essential form, is just the four nobel truths, which are meant to make a person's life better in the here and now.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/7/2013 8:48:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 8:04:05 PM, FREEDO wrote:
There's no moment-to-moment life in the first place.

Damn, that's the first time in awhile I forgot to notice I reached a milestone. 19,000.

Not a bad one though.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
slo1
Posts: 4,308
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/8/2013 7:57:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 4:27:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
"Eternity seems very dreary to me."

I think you are probably in the minority on that one.

I am, but think of this for a moment. What could possibly happen for eternity that would continue to be meaningful for eternity? When one is offered love for eternity doesn't it diminish the meaning of love? If all the mysteries are unveiled for eternity, does that not diminish curiosity? Is it just possible that eternal life becomes dreary?
slo1
Posts: 4,308
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/8/2013 7:59:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 4:38:45 PM, Hvaniratha wrote:
" [...] and the creatures of Ahriman will perish at the time when the future existence occurs, and that also is eternity. "
-- Bundahishn

Eternity is for all of Ohrmazd's creations humans. If Ohrmazd wants all humans to be eternal, then it must be a good thing, otherwise Ohrmazd would not subject us to it.

That is why faith is necessary to remain devout, but can you really say for certain until you experience it?
slo1
Posts: 4,308
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/8/2013 8:05:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 7:51:00 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 5/7/2013 3:54:02 PM, slo1 wrote:
Do they all have it as a belief because there is some sort of universal truth there or is it just a fear of death and the possibility once your dead your consciousness and you are dead?

I think they all have it because there wouldn't be much point in bothering with religion unless there were an after life of some sort. After all, apart from an after life, we're all basically in the same boat.

I don't think Judaism has always had a robust belief in an afterlife, though. Their hope wasn't in individual salvation (or whatever you want to call it), but in the collective well-being of their race and their offspring. All the promises God made to them early on had to do with the prosperity of their nation as a whole. That's what they pinned their hopes on. I don't think it was until around the time of the Babylonian exile that they developed a belief in a resurrection. But that's speculative.

Some version of Buddhism don't worry about reincarnation or nirvana, either. Buddhism, in its essential form, is just the four nobel truths, which are meant to make a person's life better in the here and now.

If there would not be much point of religion without it, then how did Buddhism or Judaism which the afterlife is not a critical tenant become so successful?

The other issue in Christianity (this maybe because I don't know my scriptures well enough) the nature of the afterlife is not very specific when it comes to heaven. Nobody really knows what "parts of you" the soul contains. It could be possible that consciousness is not part of that. Is it possible to have eternal bliss without consciousness? Maybe that is what eternal bliss is an absence of consciousness and hell is having consciousness for eternity?
v3nesl
Posts: 4,456
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/8/2013 9:44:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 3:54:02 PM, slo1 wrote:
One universal aspect of all the major religions is the concept that there is something after death of ourselves in our current state.
...:
I have to imagine I'm in the minority, while I don't want to die, it seems very peaceful to have one shot at life/consciousness and then recycle my elements back to the universe and be done with it versus having to live forever in some sort of fashion. Eternity seems very dreary to me.

In the words of one of the all time great movies (Princess Bride) - "Life is pain, Princess. Anyone who says differently is selling something"

Seriously, I think we have to think bigger. Just extrapolating this life forever, even without pain, that would become a nightmare eventually. Only an infinite God can provide a life that is infinite in both interest and duration.
This space for rent.
v3nesl
Posts: 4,456
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/8/2013 9:47:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 7:57:58 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/7/2013 4:27:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
"Eternity seems very dreary to me."

I think you are probably in the minority on that one.

I am, but think of this for a moment. What could possibly happen for eternity that would continue to be meaningful for eternity? ...

Yeah, I didn't read this first. So yeah, only unending change will do. There must be infinite entropy in the afterlife. "Behold, I make all things new" Forever new.
This space for rent.
PureX
Posts: 1,514
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/8/2013 5:34:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't see how what we call consciousness could survive after the death of the brain. So the idea of an afterlife for us as we now think of ourselves is very unlikely, I think. But it's not entirely unreasonable to assume that forms of energy exist that we are currently quite unaware of, and that some energy form that inhabits us while we live continues on after our body dies.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/8/2013 6:02:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 5:34:38 PM, PureX wrote:
I don't see how what we call consciousness could survive after the death of the brain. So the idea of an afterlife for us as we now think of ourselves is very unlikely, I think. But it's not entirely unreasonable to assume that forms of energy exist that we are currently quite unaware of, and that some energy form that inhabits us while we live continues on after our body dies.



Maybe the few seconds or minutes before your brain completely shuts down, feels like thousands of years due to the ability to properly perceive time being damaged. It could feel like you were stuck in some world you created for yourself like Inception lol
DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,517
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/8/2013 6:31:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I once thought to myself (and posited to others), "If there was an afterlife, perhaps one like this one (or better) and it would last forever unless I pushed this button that, when pushed, would terminate my existence, would I ever want to push that button?"

I can't see myself ever getting to a point of wanting to push that button.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/8/2013 7:11:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 8:05:31 AM, slo1 wrote:
If there would not be much point of religion without it, then how did Buddhism or Judaism which the afterlife is not a critical tenant become so successful?

That's a great question.

The other issue in Christianity (this maybe because I don't know my scriptures well enough) the nature of the afterlife is not very specific when it comes to heaven. Nobody really knows what "parts of you" the soul contains. It could be possible that consciousness is not part of that. Is it possible to have eternal bliss without consciousness? Maybe that is what eternal bliss is an absence of consciousness and hell is having consciousness for eternity?

The Bible is quite clear that the ultimate hope of Christians is a resurrection to eternal life. Although I believe there's an intermediate period between death and resurrection in which we exist as disembodied spirits, I admit that the Bible is not quite as clear about that. In fact, Christians sometimes differ with each other over whether that intermediate stage even exists, and among those who think it exists, it's not clear what we do during that time or what "life" is like. Some think we exist, but we're sort of in a coma and have no consciousness.

I do not think bliss is possible without consciousness since a state of bliss is a conscious state.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/8/2013 7:14:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 3:54:02 PM, slo1 wrote:
One universal aspect of all the major religions is the concept that there is something after death of ourselves in our current state.

Buhdists believe you are reincarnated and come until you reach enlightenment and spend eternity in bliss.

Hindu you just keep coming back to earth, each time in a better or worse position depending upon how you acted in the previous life, karma.

The three oldest Abrahamic religions Jewish, Christianity, & Islam and the various offshoots all have a version of heaven and hell.

The nature of "afterlife" is extremely different between the religions, but they all have it. Do they all have it as a belief because there is some sort of universal truth there or is it just a fear of death and the possibility once your dead your consciousness and you are dead?

I have to imagine I'm in the minority, while I don't want to die, it seems very peaceful to have one shot at life/consciousness and then recycle my elements back to the universe and be done with it versus having to live forever in some sort of fashion. Eternity seems very dreary to me.

All religions are related. There is a prehistoric religion that all religions derive from. All Eurasian religions derive from the Proto-Indo-European religion. Native American religions also show a prehistoric connection to the Proto-Indo-European religion.

For example; in the Egyptian creation myth, when the waters of nun receded a lotus sprouted from the primordial mound. The from the lotus came a scarab named Khepri, representing the the morning sun. Khepri was an aspect of ra the midday sun. The lotus was named Nefertum, and when matured he became Atum, the evening sun. One story says Nefertum wept because he was alone, and his tears became the first men. Another story says Atum's children were lost and when he found them he wept tears of joy, and it was those tears that became the first men. Atum-Ra was the father of Shu, the air, and Tefnut, the moisture. Shu and Tefnut bore Geb the earth and Nut the sky.

This creation story is similar to both the Hindu and Navajo creation myths. In the Hindu creation myth a giant cobra floated in the primordial waters, and within the cobra's coils laid Lord Vishnu. From Lord Vishnu's naval sprouted a lotus, and in the lotus sat Brahma. Brahma divided the lotus into the earth, the air, and the sky. The Hindus believe that similar the the cycle of reincarnation, Lord Shiva will eventually destroy the the universe, and the process of creation will begin again.

In the Navajo tradition, there were 4 worlds. The 1st world was the black world, the 2nd world was the blue world, the 3rd world was the yellow world, and the 4th world is the white world. The first man and first woman were born in the first world, and were known as the Air-spirit people. The Air-spirit people climbed a reed into the 2nd world. The bird people of the second world banished them, so they climbed the reed again into the 3rd world. There was a flood in the 3rd world, and so the Air-spirit people climbed the reed once more into the 4th world.

Some regions are actually a hybrid of various religions that branch from a common religion.

The Egyptian Religion is a combination of the Upper Egyptian and Southern Egyptian Religions. Set was the chief god of Upper Egypt, and was influenced by Enlil of Sumeria. Ptah was the chief god Lower Egypt, and was influenced by Enki of Sumeria. Alternatively Ptah's son, Atum was the chief god of Lower Egypt, depending on the region. Atum was the equivalent of Enki/EA's son Marduk in the Babylonian pantheon; Marduk means the solar calf. Khnum was the Upper Egyptian equivalent to Enki; like Ptah of lower Egypt, Khnum was a creator God. When the Lower Egyptian and Upper Egyptian pantheons merged, so did the myths of Khnum and Ptah. Ptah was a sculptor and Khnum was a potter; according to the new myth Khnum spun man on a pottery wheel as Ptah sculpted their image.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/8/2013 7:14:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 6:31:59 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
I once thought to myself (and posited to others), "If there was an afterlife, perhaps one like this one (or better) and it would last forever unless I pushed this button that, when pushed, would terminate my existence, would I ever want to push that button?"

I can't see myself ever getting to a point of wanting to push that button.

I would find it very comforting if I had a button like that. It would be like being a spy with a suicide pill, only better. That way, if you ever got into trouble, and you were about to be tortured, you could end your existence.

But if I were not in any immediate danger, and I had a cease to exist button, I would always think of one more thing I want to do before pressing the button, and I'd probably never press it. That is until I'm on my death bed or have some terminal illness that involves a lot of pain and suffering. Then I might push it.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/8/2013 7:18:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 3:54:02 PM, slo1 wrote:
One universal aspect of all the major religions is the concept that there is something after death of ourselves in our current state.

Buhdists believe you are reincarnated and come until you reach enlightenment and spend eternity in bliss.

Hindu you just keep coming back to earth, each time in a better or worse position depending upon how you acted in the previous life, karma.

The three oldest Abrahamic religions Jewish, Christianity, & Islam and the various offshoots all have a version of heaven and hell.

The nature of "afterlife" is extremely different between the religions, but they all have it. Do they all have it as a belief because there is some sort of universal truth there or is it just a fear of death and the possibility once your dead your consciousness and you are dead?

I have to imagine I'm in the minority, while I don't want to die, it seems very peaceful to have one shot at life/consciousness and then recycle my elements back to the universe and be done with it versus having to live forever in some sort of fashion. Eternity seems very dreary to me.

The ancient Hebrews believed in no afterlife at all. Then came along the resurrection of the dead, and then the survival of the soul.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/8/2013 7:20:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 6:31:59 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
I once thought to myself (and posited to others), "If there was an afterlife, perhaps one like this one (or better) and it would last forever unless I pushed this button that, when pushed, would terminate my existence, would I ever want to push that button?"

I could see it.


I can't see myself ever getting to a point of wanting to push that button.

This is because you are still under one type of thinking. You know you are going to die no matter what. We always want what we cannot have (in this case, a longer life). If we ever got the chance to live forever, pushing the button would not seem so crazy under that light. Watch the movie Time. The man in the movie lives for hundreds of years and does not want to live anymore and says "My body may not age, by my mind does". We want what we cannot have; and we know we cannot have life forever. If we ever got it, we would probably have no problem throwing it away like everything else in life. I wanted to date one of the hottest girls in high school back in grade 10 because before that I could not have her, then I finally ended up going out with her and it was awesome at first, but obviously it got boring over time and it did not feel the same as when I could not have it. If you keep this in mind, pressing the button seems more likely.
DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,517
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/8/2013 7:44:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 7:20:50 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/8/2013 6:31:59 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
I once thought to myself (and posited to others), "If there was an afterlife, perhaps one like this one (or better) and it would last forever unless I pushed this button that, when pushed, would terminate my existence, would I ever want to push that button?"

I could see it.


I can't see myself ever getting to a point of wanting to push that button.

This is because you are still under one type of thinking. You know you are going to die no matter what. We always want what we cannot have (in this case, a longer life). If we ever got the chance to live forever, pushing the button would not seem so crazy under that light. Watch the movie Time. The man in the movie lives for hundreds of years and does not want to live anymore and says "My body may not age, by my mind does". We want what we cannot have; and we know we cannot have life forever. If we ever got it, we would probably have no problem throwing it away like everything else in life. I wanted to date one of the hottest girls in high school back in grade 10 because before that I could not have her, then I finally ended up going out with her and it was awesome at first, but obviously it got boring over time and it did not feel the same as when I could not have it. If you keep this in mind, pressing the button seems more likely.

While I won't deny that possibility, I still strongly believe there'd always be at least one more thing I'd prioritize over my demise. Learning something new, getting stronger in Go, having sex, writing something, whatever.
Radar
Posts: 424
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/8/2013 7:51:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Never gave it much thought, myself. For if the soul is eternal, why worry? If not, why fret about the inevitable?
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/8/2013 8:24:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 7:51:06 PM, Radar wrote:
Never gave it much thought, myself. For if the soul is eternal, why worry? If not, why fret about the inevitable?

"Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another." ~ Albert Einstein
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
v3nesl
Posts: 4,456
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/9/2013 8:44:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 7:18:24 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
...
The ancient Hebrews believed in no afterlife at all. Then came along the resurrection of the dead, and then the survival of the soul.

Jesus brilliantly debunked this idea in his day when he quoted Genesis: "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" and followed with "God is not the god of the dead, but of the living"

And what on earth would "I will give this land to you ... forever" mean to Abraham without resurrection, when he only owned one cemetery plot at the time of his death? And why did he trust God enough to kill his own son when God had promised he would have innumerable descendants through that son?
This space for rent.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/9/2013 10:17:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 7:44:33 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
At 5/8/2013 7:20:50 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/8/2013 6:31:59 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
I once thought to myself (and posited to others), "If there was an afterlife, perhaps one like this one (or better) and it would last forever unless I pushed this button that, when pushed, would terminate my existence, would I ever want to push that button?"

I could see it.


I can't see myself ever getting to a point of wanting to push that button.

This is because you are still under one type of thinking. You know you are going to die no matter what. We always want what we cannot have (in this case, a longer life). If we ever got the chance to live forever, pushing the button would not seem so crazy under that light. Watch the movie Time. The man in the movie lives for hundreds of years and does not want to live anymore and says "My body may not age, by my mind does". We want what we cannot have; and we know we cannot have life forever. If we ever got it, we would probably have no problem throwing it away like everything else in life. I wanted to date one of the hottest girls in high school back in grade 10 because before that I could not have her, then I finally ended up going out with her and it was awesome at first, but obviously it got boring over time and it did not feel the same as when I could not have it. If you keep this in mind, pressing the button seems more likely.

While I won't deny that possibility, I still strongly believe there'd always be at least one more thing I'd prioritize over my demise. Learning something new, getting stronger in Go, having sex, writing something, whatever.

Not me. After like 400-500 years I'd probably press the button.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/9/2013 10:17:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/8/2013 7:44:33 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
At 5/8/2013 7:20:50 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/8/2013 6:31:59 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
I once thought to myself (and posited to others), "If there was an afterlife, perhaps one like this one (or better) and it would last forever unless I pushed this button that, when pushed, would terminate my existence, would I ever want to push that button?"

I could see it.


I can't see myself ever getting to a point of wanting to push that button.

This is because you are still under one type of thinking. You know you are going to die no matter what. We always want what we cannot have (in this case, a longer life). If we ever got the chance to live forever, pushing the button would not seem so crazy under that light. Watch the movie Time. The man in the movie lives for hundreds of years and does not want to live anymore and says "My body may not age, by my mind does". We want what we cannot have; and we know we cannot have life forever. If we ever got it, we would probably have no problem throwing it away like everything else in life. I wanted to date one of the hottest girls in high school back in grade 10 because before that I could not have her, then I finally ended up going out with her and it was awesome at first, but obviously it got boring over time and it did not feel the same as when I could not have it. If you keep this in mind, pressing the button seems more likely.

While I won't deny that possibility, I still strongly believe there'd always be at least one more thing I'd prioritize over my demise. Learning something new, getting stronger in Go, having sex, writing something, whatever.

I am just thinking realistically. I still believe you are applying your mindset now to how it would be if you actually had this option.