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God and efficiency

Rational_Thinker9119
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5/9/2013 9:36:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I was just thinking about the theists argument that we should expect God to not be efficient because he has unlimited resources....I think I may disagree. Just because God has unlimited resources, that does not mean we should expect God to be efficient necessarily. A rather stupid being with unlimited resources come up with things that look designed by chance alone, if he was extremely wasteful in the process. Maybe God, even with unlimited resources would demonstrate his actual intelligence and greatness by showing efficiency, even with unlimited resources.
medic0506
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5/9/2013 11:09:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The best way to think about it, I think, is to not have any expectations about what an omniscient being might do. I think we can expect to see some things that make sense, and some things that don't, but no predictable pattern.
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/9/2013 11:18:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 11:09:33 PM, medic0506 wrote:
The best way to think about it, I think, is to not have any expectations about what an omniscient being might do. I think we can expect to see some things that make sense, and some things that don't, but no predictable pattern.

I agree that we cannot tell whether God would be efficient or not if he exists. However, Craig seems to just assume that God would not have a reason to be efficient because he has unlimited resources. I was just trying to put a different perspective on it, and propose that maybe God would have a reason. This reason would be to demonstrate and glorify his great intellect; as even a rather stupid being could produce rather interesting things by chance a lone with unlimited resources. I do not think this an unreasonable possibility.
medic0506
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5/10/2013 12:14:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 11:18:24 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/9/2013 11:09:33 PM, medic0506 wrote:
The best way to think about it, I think, is to not have any expectations about what an omniscient being might do. I think we can expect to see some things that make sense, and some things that don't, but no predictable pattern.

I agree that we cannot tell whether God would be efficient or not if he exists. However, Craig seems to just assume that God would not have a reason to be efficient because he has unlimited resources. I was just trying to put a different perspective on it, and propose that maybe God would have a reason. This reason would be to demonstrate and glorify his great intellect; as even a rather stupid being could produce rather interesting things by chance a lone with unlimited resources. I do not think this an unreasonable possibility.

I think you found an issue that I can't argue with you about, I do see logic in your position.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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5/10/2013 5:20:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
What if God is also All knowledgeable and All wise ? that all depend on the attributes you put, you seem to restrict the attributes of God to imperfect or incomplete to be able to come up with atheistic conclusions, now in Islam God is All knowledgeable, meaning his knowledge is complete he knows everything in everyway, he even knows what would have happened if past was different or a specific being made a different choice.
pozessed
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5/10/2013 5:38:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 5:20:58 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
What if God is also All knowledgeable and All wise ? that all depend on the attributes you put, you seem to restrict the attributes of God to imperfect or incomplete to be able to come up with atheistic conclusions, now in Islam God is All knowledgeable, meaning his knowledge is complete he knows everything in everyway, he even knows what would have happened if past was different or a specific being made a different choice.

I like to believe God is intrigued by his creation and therefore doesn't know everything. People are usually intrigued about things that thy can learn from because they don't understand it as best as they could. Why assume God is any different just because he is our creator.
Sidewalker
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5/10/2013 6:07:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 9:36:34 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I was just thinking about the theists argument that we should expect God to not be efficient because he has unlimited resources....I think I may disagree. Just because God has unlimited resources, that does not mean we should expect God to be efficient necessarily. A rather stupid being with unlimited resources come up with things that look designed by chance alone, if he was extremely wasteful in the process. Maybe God, even with unlimited resources would demonstrate his actual intelligence and greatness by showing efficiency, even with unlimited resources.

Belief in God is essentially belief in a transcendent reality upon which the universe is contingent. The question is, on what basis do you judge efficiency, stupidity, or wastefulness in regards to a transcendent realm?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
medv4380
Posts: 200
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5/10/2013 8:51:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 11:18:24 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
However, Craig seems to just assume that God would not have a reason to be efficient because he has unlimited resources. I was just trying to put a different perspective on it, and propose that maybe God would have a reason.

However the context of that argument is to counter the accusation that evolution and cosmology is inefficient from a design perspective. As a programmer who uses Genetic Algorithms I'd argue that the Universes Current setup would be an optimal configuration for saving God on effort. Why should anyone waist their effort doing something when they have a simple setup that will run itself unsupervised. They just have to check on it every so often to see if it's done. My personal reasons for not wanting to use a Genetic Algorithm is that I'm impatient, and if I can code it faster, so I can have it faster, so be it. But God is supposed to be Timeless so as timeless regardless of the method he chooses does he actually have to wait for it? So if he doesn't have to wait then the only cost he has to consider is how much effort he personally has to put into it.

The entire efficiency of God argument is aimless on both side. It requires knowledge the both sides lack in order to make.
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/10/2013 9:40:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 5:20:58 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
What if God is also All knowledgeable and All wise ? that all depend on the attributes you put, you seem to restrict the attributes of God to imperfect or incomplete to be able to come up with atheistic conclusions, now in Islam God is All knowledgeable, meaning his knowledge is complete he knows everything in everyway, he even knows what would have happened if past was different or a specific being made a different choice.

"What if God is also All knowledgeable and All wise ?"

It would not effect anything I'm saying at all. I do not know why you would mentioned this.
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/10/2013 9:47:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 6:07:59 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 5/9/2013 9:36:34 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I was just thinking about the theists argument that we should expect God to not be efficient because he has unlimited resources....I think I may disagree. Just because God has unlimited resources, that does not mean we should expect God to be efficient necessarily. A rather stupid being with unlimited resources come up with things that look designed by chance alone, if he was extremely wasteful in the process. Maybe God, even with unlimited resources would demonstrate his actual intelligence and greatness by showing efficiency, even with unlimited resources.

Belief in God is essentially belief in a transcendent reality upon which the universe is contingent. The question is, on what basis do you judge efficiency, stupidity, or wastefulness in regards to a transcendent realm?

If you give a stupid being unlimited resources and time, the chances are extremely high that he is going to get things right along the way (like life) even if 99.9999999...% of what he completes is nothing but waste. The universe we live in fits this hypothesis perfectly, as virtually the entire universe (99.9999999...%) is incompatible with life. This is odd. Why would a being with perfect intelligence create a universe that is completely compatible with the idea that a stupid being made it? Think about that....This is analogous to a stick figure picture. Imagine someone came up to you and said it was painted by a perfect painter. This would be extremely unlikely, because why would a perfect painter create something that is compatible with the theory that a 3 year old made it?! A perfect painter who wanted to glorify himself, would create a painting so well done that nobody could claim that the painting was compatible with the theory that a 3 year old made it. If God exists, I see no reason not to expect to find life in a universe so efficiently intelligently made that there is no way it could be compatible with the idea that a stupid being made it. Not because he as to due to limitations with regards to resources, but because he would want to glorify himself. A powerful but stupid being with a lot of time on his hands and unlimited resources fits the universe we see, as he would need a vast and old universe to get anything interesting done he is so stupid. If you would not buy the notion that a random stick figure painting came from a perfect painter because its compatible with the theory a 3 year old made it, why would you buy the notion that this universe came from a perfect intelligence even though its compatible with the idea that a stupid being made it? This universe is compatible with theism, but extremely baffling and surprising given thiesm as it is compatible with a stupid designer.
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/10/2013 9:57:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Efficiency would not be needed, but it would be desired as it demonstrates a clear sign of intelligence (and we are discussing a God who likes to glorify himself)....Basically, even if a being has unlimited resources, this does not mean we should expect to not find efficiency if he really wants to glorify himself.
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/10/2013 10:07:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
If two people have the same amount of plastic and one person creates a phone that is more efficient than the next guy, this shows a clear sign of intelligence even though they had the same amount of resources. This means that efficiency is not necessarily a sign of limitation, its a clear sign of intellectual superiority.
PureX
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5/10/2013 10:22:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 9:36:34 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I was just thinking about the theists argument that we should expect God to not be efficient because he has unlimited resources....I think I may disagree. Just because God has unlimited resources, that does not mean we should expect God to be efficient necessarily. A rather stupid being with unlimited resources come up with things that look designed by chance alone, if he was extremely wasteful in the process. Maybe God, even with unlimited resources would demonstrate his actual intelligence and greatness by showing efficiency, even with unlimited resources.

Perhaps (He's) demonstrating generosity instead, by allowing every possibility to have it's chance at becoming existent. Or perhaps (He's) demonstrating fairness by the same means. Or perhaps (He's) a (She), and we all know how inefficient woman are!
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/10/2013 10:27:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 10:22:39 AM, PureX wrote:
At 5/9/2013 9:36:34 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I was just thinking about the theists argument that we should expect God to not be efficient because he has unlimited resources....I think I may disagree. Just because God has unlimited resources, that does not mean we should expect God to be efficient necessarily. A rather stupid being with unlimited resources come up with things that look designed by chance alone, if he was extremely wasteful in the process. Maybe God, even with unlimited resources would demonstrate his actual intelligence and greatness by showing efficiency, even with unlimited resources.

Perhaps (He's) demonstrating generosity instead, by allowing every possibility to have it's chance at becoming existent. Or perhaps (He's) demonstrating fairness by the same means. Or perhaps (He's) a (She), and we all know how inefficient woman are!

"Perhaps (He's) demonstrating generosity instead, by allowing every possibility to have it's chance at becoming existent"

Its possible. I am just saying that if a being exists who wants to glorify his intelligence, it is weird that he would create a universe that looks exactly as it would have to if a stupid being made it.
v3nesl
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5/10/2013 10:31:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/9/2013 11:18:24 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
...
as even a rather stupid being could produce rather interesting things by chance a lone with unlimited resources. I do not think this an unreasonable possibility.

I'm not sure I see this, can you give an example? I see, for instance, that a tone deaf person is not going to produce good music no matter how big his budget, while a great musician can make most any junk instrument sound ok.
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v3nesl
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5/10/2013 10:36:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 10:27:17 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
...

Its possible. I am just saying that if a being exists who wants to glorify his intelligence, it is weird that he would create a universe that looks exactly as it would have to if a stupid being made it.

Well that's a pretty bizarre thing to say! Even Steven Hawking, no fan of a creator, observes that the constants of physics needed to be as they are down to a gnat's whisker in order for the big bang to work.
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Rational_Thinker9119
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5/10/2013 10:38:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 10:31:41 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 5/9/2013 11:18:24 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
...
as even a rather stupid being could produce rather interesting things by chance a lone with unlimited resources. I do not think this an unreasonable possibility.

I'm not sure I see this, can you give an example? I see, for instance, that a tone deaf person is not going to produce good music no matter how big his budget, while a great musician can make most any junk instrument sound ok.

"I'm not sure I see this, can you give an example? I see, for instance, that a tone deaf person is not going to produce good music no matter how big his budget"

Yes he will. If he has enough of a budget, eventually he will get something right. Simple laws of probability.
Apeiron
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5/10/2013 10:41:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
That's not the claim, rather it's that because God is unlimited, it's meaningless or irrelevant to ask if he's efficient.
PureX
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5/10/2013 10:41:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 10:27:17 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/10/2013 10:22:39 AM, PureX wrote:
At 5/9/2013 9:36:34 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I was just thinking about the theists argument that we should expect God to not be efficient because he has unlimited resources....I think I may disagree. Just because God has unlimited resources, that does not mean we should expect God to be efficient necessarily. A rather stupid being with unlimited resources come up with things that look designed by chance alone, if he was extremely wasteful in the process. Maybe God, even with unlimited resources would demonstrate his actual intelligence and greatness by showing efficiency, even with unlimited resources.

Perhaps (He's) demonstrating generosity instead, by allowing every possibility to have it's chance at becoming existent. Or perhaps (He's) demonstrating fairness by the same means. Or perhaps (He's) a (She), and we all know how inefficient woman are!

"Perhaps (He's) demonstrating generosity instead, by allowing every possibility to have it's chance at becoming existent"

Its possible. I am just saying that if a being exists who wants to glorify his intelligence, it is weird that he would create a universe that looks exactly as it would have to if a stupid being made it.

But that's my point. It doesn't look as if a "stupid being" made it unless you presume that only efficiency connotes intelligence. Which is a silly presumption, I think you'd agree.
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/10/2013 10:41:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 10:36:26 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 5/10/2013 10:27:17 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
...

Its possible. I am just saying that if a being exists who wants to glorify his intelligence, it is weird that he would create a universe that looks exactly as it would have to if a stupid being made it.

Well that's a pretty bizarre thing to say!

No it is not. The universe is completely compatible the the idea of a stupid being. A stupid being would need all this space and time, a smart being would not. Therefore, the size of the universe is better explained by stupid being theory.

Even Steven Hawking, no fan of a creator, observes that the constants of physics needed to be as they are down to a gnat's whisker in order for the big bang to work.

So? The stupid being could have experimented with different universes, and just so happen to get this one right. Also, there is no evidence that any other constant combinations are even possible to begin with.
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/10/2013 10:42:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 10:41:20 AM, PureX wrote:
At 5/10/2013 10:27:17 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/10/2013 10:22:39 AM, PureX wrote:
At 5/9/2013 9:36:34 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I was just thinking about the theists argument that we should expect God to not be efficient because he has unlimited resources....I think I may disagree. Just because God has unlimited resources, that does not mean we should expect God to be efficient necessarily. A rather stupid being with unlimited resources come up with things that look designed by chance alone, if he was extremely wasteful in the process. Maybe God, even with unlimited resources would demonstrate his actual intelligence and greatness by showing efficiency, even with unlimited resources.

Perhaps (He's) demonstrating generosity instead, by allowing every possibility to have it's chance at becoming existent. Or perhaps (He's) demonstrating fairness by the same means. Or perhaps (He's) a (She), and we all know how inefficient woman are!

"Perhaps (He's) demonstrating generosity instead, by allowing every possibility to have it's chance at becoming existent"

Its possible. I am just saying that if a being exists who wants to glorify his intelligence, it is weird that he would create a universe that looks exactly as it would have to if a stupid being made it.

But that's my point. It doesn't look as if a "stupid being" made it unless you presume that only efficiency connotes intelligence. Which is a silly presumption, I think you'd agree.

The point is that the universe is compatible with a stupid being theory. If a God wanted to glorify his intelligence, he would create a universe that is only compatible with intelligent being theory.
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/10/2013 10:47:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 10:41:18 AM, Apeiron wrote:
That's not the claim, rather it's that because God is unlimited, it's meaningless or irrelevant to ask if he's efficient.

It is not meaningless though. A being who wanted to glorify his intelligence, would most likely not create a universe that is compatible with the idea that a stupid being made it. A stupid being would explain the size and age of the universe, because he would need it. God could still want to be efficient to glorify himself, by creating a universe that looked like only intelligence could have created it. A universe with one planet perhaps. Therefore you are confusing needs and wants. God would not need to be efficient, but he would most likely want to be as it is a sign of intelligence. Unlimited resources is not a sign of intelligence. An idiot with unlimited stuff will get some things right.
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/10/2013 10:54:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 10:41:18 AM, Apeiron wrote:
That's not the claim, rather it's that because God is unlimited, it's meaningless or irrelevant to ask if he's efficient.

So even though an unlimited being would not need to be efficient, he may want to be to glorify his intelligence. A universe with just one planet, that had life, would not be compatible with the idea that a stupid being just so happened to get lucky. Our universe is compatible with this though. Why would God want to create a universe that looks exactly as it would have to if a stupid being made it? Therefore, even though God would not need to be efficient, he may still want to to solidify his intelligence. Thus, the efficiency question still has meaning when dealing with the glorification of this intelligence. It has nothing to do with unlimited resources.
v3nesl
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5/10/2013 10:54:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 10:38:54 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/10/2013 10:31:41 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 5/9/2013 11:18:24 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
...
as even a rather stupid being could produce rather interesting things by chance a lone with unlimited resources. I do not think this an unreasonable possibility.

I'm not sure I see this, can you give an example? I see, for instance, that a tone deaf person is not going to produce good music no matter how big his budget, while a great musician can make most any junk instrument sound ok.

"I'm not sure I see this, can you give an example? I see, for instance, that a tone deaf person is not going to produce good music no matter how big his budget"

Yes he will. If he has enough of a budget, eventually he will get something right. Simple laws of probability.

I don't think so. This is like the monkeys typing Shakespeare. You can't actually create a real world scenario where monkeys will type Shakespeare, and you can't make good music just by writing a lot of music. If that were possible somebody would have sunk a few million into the next computer generated grammy winner.

People, especially after Darwin, seem to forget that in the real world, the house always wins. The more you roll the dice, the more certain that you lose.
This space for rent.
Apeiron
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5/10/2013 10:56:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 10:47:27 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/10/2013 10:41:18 AM, Apeiron wrote:
That's not the claim, rather it's that because God is unlimited, it's meaningless or irrelevant to ask if he's efficient.

It is not meaningless though. A being who wanted to glorify his intelligence, would most likely not create a universe that is compatible with the idea that a stupid being made it. A stupid being would explain the size and age of the universe, because he would need it. God could still want to be efficient to glorify himself, by creating a universe that looked like only intelligence could have created it. A universe with one planet perhaps. Therefore you are confusing needs and wants. God would not need to be efficient, but he would most likely want to be as it is a sign of intelligence. Unlimited resources is not a sign of intelligence. An idiot with unlimited stuff will get some things right.

Who said God would want to glorify his intellect? Why think God's like the engineer rather than the artist? It seems to me that this universe is sufficiently constructed so as to allow for great creative potential.
v3nesl
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5/10/2013 10:59:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 10:41:18 AM, Apeiron wrote:
That's not the claim, rather it's that because God is unlimited, it's meaningless or irrelevant to ask if he's efficient.

That was my first reaction, but, in the context of creating a finite thing, efficiency does play into that creation.

So, to follow the music analogy, one could give oneself the challenge of writing a ballad that makes people want to dance, for instance. So it's gotta be a ballad, how do I make it slow but energetic?

We sort of hinted at it the other day, but there's a big philosophical question (in my mind at least) that you might put like this: What does an infinite being do to make it interesting? And the answer certainly must include creating limits, boundaries, as we humans do when we create a game.
This space for rent.
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/10/2013 11:04:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 10:54:52 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 5/10/2013 10:38:54 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/10/2013 10:31:41 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 5/9/2013 11:18:24 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
...
as even a rather stupid being could produce rather interesting things by chance a lone with unlimited resources. I do not think this an unreasonable possibility.

I'm not sure I see this, can you give an example? I see, for instance, that a tone deaf person is not going to produce good music no matter how big his budget, while a great musician can make most any junk instrument sound ok.

"I'm not sure I see this, can you give an example? I see, for instance, that a tone deaf person is not going to produce good music no matter how big his budget"

Yes he will. If he has enough of a budget, eventually he will get something right. Simple laws of probability.

I don't think so. This is like the monkeys typing Shakespeare. You can't actually create a real world scenario where monkeys will type Shakespeare, and you can't make good music just by writing a lot of music. If that were possible somebody would have sunk a few million into the next computer generated grammy winner.

People, especially after Darwin, seem to forget that in the real world, the house always wins. The more you roll the dice, the more certain that you lose.

"I don't think so. This is like the monkeys typing Shakespeare."

If you have enough time, it has to happen. Simple laws of probability.
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/10/2013 11:05:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 10:56:17 AM, Apeiron wrote:
At 5/10/2013 10:47:27 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/10/2013 10:41:18 AM, Apeiron wrote:
That's not the claim, rather it's that because God is unlimited, it's meaningless or irrelevant to ask if he's efficient.

It is not meaningless though. A being who wanted to glorify his intelligence, would most likely not create a universe that is compatible with the idea that a stupid being made it. A stupid being would explain the size and age of the universe, because he would need it. God could still want to be efficient to glorify himself, by creating a universe that looked like only intelligence could have created it. A universe with one planet perhaps. Therefore you are confusing needs and wants. God would not need to be efficient, but he would most likely want to be as it is a sign of intelligence. Unlimited resources is not a sign of intelligence. An idiot with unlimited stuff will get some things right.

Who said God would want to glorify his intellect? Why think God's like the engineer rather than the artist? It seems to me that this universe is sufficiently constructed so as to allow for great creative potential.

Conscious artistry requires intellect. You are acting like the two are mutually exclusive.
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/10/2013 11:06:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/10/2013 10:54:52 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 5/10/2013 10:38:54 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/10/2013 10:31:41 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 5/9/2013 11:18:24 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
...
as even a rather stupid being could produce rather interesting things by chance a lone with unlimited resources. I do not think this an unreasonable possibility.

I'm not sure I see this, can you give an example? I see, for instance, that a tone deaf person is not going to produce good music no matter how big his budget, while a great musician can make most any junk instrument sound ok.

"I'm not sure I see this, can you give an example? I see, for instance, that a tone deaf person is not going to produce good music no matter how big his budget"

Yes he will. If he has enough of a budget, eventually he will get something right. Simple laws of probability.

I don't think so. This is like the monkeys typing Shakespeare. You can't actually create a real world scenario where monkeys will type Shakespeare, and you can't make good music just by writing a lot of music. If that were possible somebody would have sunk a few million into the next computer generated grammy winner.

People, especially after Darwin, seem to forget that in the real world, the house always wins. The more you roll the dice, the more certain that you lose.

Also, look at all the Divinci Code stuff . There are a lot of messages in that due to chance alone!