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Ethics of Eternal Torment in Hell

Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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5/13/2013 11:14:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The bible describes a place where bad people and unbelievers will be tortured for eternity. So I have a few questions. First, is hell really what most people think it is? Second, is is ethical to torture people forever?
AbnerGrimm
Posts: 114
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5/13/2013 11:33:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/13/2013 11:14:15 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
The bible describes a place where bad people and unbelievers will be tortured for eternity. So I have a few questions. First, is hell really what most people think it is? Second, is is ethical to torture people forever?

Hell is more like the place where God is not. The is the reason they are there, because they do not want God. The pain and torture is a reflection from being separated from the source of life.
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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5/13/2013 11:52:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/13/2013 11:33:15 AM, AbnerGrimm wrote:
At 5/13/2013 11:14:15 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
The bible describes a place where bad people and unbelievers will be tortured for eternity. So I have a few questions. First, is hell really what most people think it is? Second, is is ethical to torture people forever?

Hell is more like the place where God is not. The is the reason they are there, because they do not want God. The pain and torture is a reflection from being separated from the source of life.

So what happens if one dies and decides to want God after death?
rjohnson741
Posts: 215
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5/13/2013 12:00:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/13/2013 11:14:15 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
The bible describes a place where bad people and unbelievers will be tortured for eternity. So I have a few questions. First, is hell really what most people think it is? Second, is is ethical to torture people forever?

Eternal torment is not a Biblical doctrine. Read my thread called Christian Universalism.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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5/13/2013 12:12:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/13/2013 11:14:15 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
The bible describes a place where bad people and unbelievers will be tortured for eternity. So I have a few questions. First, is hell really what most people think it is?

I'm not sure, but I don't see how it could be to be honest.

Second, is is ethical to torture people forever?

Well, it sure doesn't seem like it. I guess it becomes even more troubling when you consider that those being tortured forever are the same ones loved by God.
AbnerGrimm
Posts: 114
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5/13/2013 12:28:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/13/2013 11:52:39 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 5/13/2013 11:33:15 AM, AbnerGrimm wrote:
At 5/13/2013 11:14:15 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
The bible describes a place where bad people and unbelievers will be tortured for eternity. So I have a few questions. First, is hell really what most people think it is? Second, is is ethical to torture people forever?

Hell is more like the place where God is not. The is the reason they are there, because they do not want God. The pain and torture is a reflection from being separated from the source of life.

So what happens if one dies and decides to want God after death?

God will never know. I am sure all of them want that.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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5/13/2013 1:22:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/13/2013 12:00:54 PM, rjohnson741 wrote:
At 5/13/2013 11:14:15 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
The bible describes a place where bad people and unbelievers will be tortured for eternity. So I have a few questions. First, is hell really what most people think it is? Second, is is ethical to torture people forever?

Eternal torment is not a Biblical doctrine. Read my thread called Christian Universalism.

Eternal torment is the total absence from God for eternity. As I said in your thread, universalism is heresy and is in no possible way a Biblical doctrine.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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5/13/2013 1:28:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/13/2013 11:14:15 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
The bible describes a place where bad people and unbelievers will be tortured for eternity. So I have a few questions. First, is hell really what most people think it is?

Hell is not the fire and brimstone that many people believe. It is the eternal absence of God.

Second, is is ethical to torture people forever?

Only those who choose not to follow God will be without Him for eternity, so is it ethical to give someone what they freely chose?? Yes.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/13/2013 1:34:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/13/2013 11:33:15 AM, AbnerGrimm wrote:
At 5/13/2013 11:14:15 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
The bible describes a place where bad people and unbelievers will be tortured for eternity. So I have a few questions. First, is hell really what most people think it is? Second, is is ethical to torture people forever?

Hell is more like the place where God is not. The is the reason they are there, because they do not want God. The pain and torture is a reflection from being separated from the source of life.

This is the weakest form of cop-out. Lacking a belief in god or having an affirmative disbelief in god has nothing to do with desire*. I belief I'm not a millionaire. Is that because I want to not be a millionaire? No, it's because of the factual reality of me not being a millionaire! The same thing goes for my atheism. My atheism is because I strive to have my beliefs aligned with reality, for better or for worse. It has nothing to do with whether or not I want there to be a god.

Hell, I'd love for their to be this wish-granting bearded sky-fairy that would let me get away with all sorts of immoral depravity and then grant me with eternal life so long as I believe he exists. Alas, it isn't the case.

* - Yes, there are people that have expressed a happiness at the fact that there is no god and would prefer that to be the case (e.g. Thomas Nagel) but: 1) wanting there to not be a god is not the same thing as wanting to be separated from a god that actually exists; and 2) it is inappropriate to characterize everyone according to this narrow label
AbnerGrimm
Posts: 114
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5/13/2013 1:52:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/13/2013 1:34:54 PM, drafterman wrote:
This is the weakest form of cop-out.:

Weakest? I'd say it is dead accurate.

Lacking a belief in god or having an affirmative disbelief in god has nothing to do with desire*.:

Yes it does. We want to believe as we choose.

I belief I'm not a millionaire. Is that because I want to not be a millionaire? No, it's because of the factual reality of me not being a millionaire!:

Exactly you believe there is no God. You have no convincing evidence He exist. This is opinion.

The same thing goes for my atheism. My atheism is because I strive to have my beliefs aligned with reality, for better or for worse. It has nothing to do with whether or not I want there to be a god.

Don't give me that. You do not believe in God. Therefore, you do not want Him to exist or it would mean bad things. If that is where the evidence leads you that is still what you choose to accept. It could be wrong. I think it is absurd to claim aligning with reality when history will suggest to you that some kind of meta-physical existence exist but you reject such notions.

Hell, I'd love for their to be this wish-granting bearded sky-fairy that would let me get away with all sorts of immoral depravity:

You don't now? You have no clue what or who God is. First learn that before you attempt to speak on such matters.

and then grant me with eternal life so long as I believe he exists. Alas, it isn't the case.

You do not know if it is the case or not.

* - Yes, there are people that have expressed a happiness at the fact that there is no god and would prefer that to be the case (e.g. Thomas Nagel) but: 1) wanting there to not be a god is not the same thing as wanting to be separated from a god that actually exists; and 2) it is inappropriate to characterize everyone according to this narrow label

You are talking about this God, therefore, you know about Him to find Him.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/13/2013 2:04:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/13/2013 1:52:28 PM, AbnerGrimm wrote:
At 5/13/2013 1:34:54 PM, drafterman wrote:
This is the weakest form of cop-out.:

Weakest? I'd say it is dead accurate.

Lacking a belief in god or having an affirmative disbelief in god has nothing to do with desire*.:

Yes it does. We want to believe as we choose.

Wanting to believe in something and believing in something simply because we want it are two different things. The former does not entail the latter.


I belief I'm not a millionaire. Is that because I want to not be a millionaire? No, it's because of the factual reality of me not being a millionaire!:

Exactly you believe there is no God. You have no convincing evidence He exist. This is opinion.

Exactly, it's about being convinced, not about what I want.


The same thing goes for my atheism. My atheism is because I strive to have my beliefs aligned with reality, for better or for worse. It has nothing to do with whether or not I want there to be a god.

Don't give me that. You do not believe in God. Therefore, you do not want Him to exist or it would mean bad things.

But that's not the connection we're talking about here. We are talking about (I don't want God to exist) ergo (I believe God doesn't exist) NOT (I believe God doesn't exist) ergo (I don't want God to exist). Those are two different statements.

If that is where the evidence leads you that is still what you choose to accept. It could be wrong. I think it is absurd to claim aligning with reality when history will suggest to you that some kind of meta-physical existence exist but you reject such notions.


Hell, I'd love for their to be this wish-granting bearded sky-fairy that would let me get away with all sorts of immoral depravity:

You don't now? You have no clue what or who God is. First learn that before you attempt to speak on such matters.

and then grant me with eternal life so long as I believe he exists. Alas, it isn't the case.

You do not know if it is the case or not.

I'm pretty sure it is the case, whether I want it to be or not.


* - Yes, there are people that have expressed a happiness at the fact that there is no god and would prefer that to be the case (e.g. Thomas Nagel) but: 1) wanting there to not be a god is not the same thing as wanting to be separated from a god that actually exists; and 2) it is inappropriate to characterize everyone according to this narrow label

You are talking about this God, therefore, you know about Him to find Him.

Would the same apply if we were talking about Dumbledore?
rjohnson741
Posts: 215
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5/13/2013 2:21:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/13/2013 1:28:06 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/13/2013 11:14:15 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
The bible describes a place where bad people and unbelievers will be tortured for eternity. So I have a few questions. First, is hell really what most people think it is?

Hell is not the fire and brimstone that many people believe. It is the eternal absence of God.

Second, is is ethical to torture people forever?

Only those who choose not to follow God will be without Him for eternity, so is it ethical to give someone what they freely chose?? Yes.

God is never absent from anyone. God's presence is every where. Even if you make your bed in hell God is there(Psalm 139:7-8). You can run but you can't hide from God's love. You can run and run and run and hide from God, but God will seek you until He finds you. When you get weary and tired of running, God will lay you on His shoulders and carry you home(Luke 15:4-5). God's presence is even in the lake of fire---'And he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb' Revelation 14:10. The presence of God's tormenting love is able to melt the hearts of even the most wicked amongst us.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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5/13/2013 7:00:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Who sets ethics ? if you mean your ethics I don't know. but if God ethics then sure.

Eternity in Hell is for infinite sin. Disbelieve and associating partners in worship to God are the infinite sins, that allow one to grill in Hell for good.
Suqua
Posts: 433
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5/13/2013 9:42:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/13/2013 11:14:15 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
The bible describes a place where bad people and unbelievers will be tortured for eternity. So I have a few questions. First, is hell really what most people think it is? Second, is is ethical to torture people forever?

Its not what most, even Christians, believe. No it is not ethical to torture people forever.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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5/14/2013 12:10:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/13/2013 12:28:15 PM, AbnerGrimm wrote:
At 5/13/2013 11:52:39 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 5/13/2013 11:33:15 AM, AbnerGrimm wrote:
At 5/13/2013 11:14:15 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
The bible describes a place where bad people and unbelievers will be tortured for eternity. So I have a few questions. First, is hell really what most people think it is? Second, is is ethical to torture people forever?

Hell is more like the place where God is not. The is the reason they are there, because they do not want God. The pain and torture is a reflection from being separated from the source of life.

So what happens if one dies and decides to want God after death?

God will never know. I am sure all of them want that.

An all knowing being won't know...?
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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5/14/2013 1:41:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/13/2013 4:09:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/13/2013 4:04:13 PM, Anti-atheist wrote:
If god says its ethical then its ethical

No one takes you seriously.

http://thedailyshow.mtvnimages.com...

He happens to make a point. That would be smarter if you could answer statements instead of members.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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5/14/2013 3:13:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/13/2013 12:00:54 PM, rjohnson741 wrote:
At 5/13/2013 11:14:15 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
The bible describes a place where bad people and unbelievers will be tortured for eternity. So I have a few questions. First, is hell really what most people think it is? Second, is is ethical to torture people forever?

Eternal torment is not a Biblical doctrine. Read my thread called Christian Universalism.

At 5/13/2013 1:22:58 PM, medic0506 wrote:
Eternal torment is the total absence from God for eternity.
Your own self-contradicting Story book refutes you, LMAO! -

. . . . whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there]. (Psalm 139:7, 8) KJV Story book

So Story book claims here that Story book god is everywhere and hence isn't absent from those in hell!

As far as your BS regarding ' eternal torment ' again your own Story book refutes that claim -

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. (Rev. 21:4, 5) KJV Story book

" And " he will wipe away every Tear from their EYES ; " and DEATH will be no more, " nor Mourning, nor Crying ; neither will there be any more Pain ; " Because the FORMER things passed away." 5 And " HE who SITS on the THRONE said, " "Behold ! I make All things new." (Rev. 21:4, 5) E. Diaglott Story book

At 5/13/2013 1:22:58 PM, medic0506 wrote:
As I said in your thread, universalism is heresy
Universalism / Universal forgiveness is entirely accurate again according to your own Story book -

Re: Forgiveness: 18:22 Jesus said to him, "Not seven times, I tell you, but seventy-seven times!33 (Matthew 18:22) NET story book

33 tn Or "seventy times seven," i.e., an unlimited number of times. See L&N 60.74 and 60.77 for the two possible translations of the phrase. (Matt. 18:22) NET Story book Footnotes

&

. . . . not willing that any should perish , . . . . (2 Pet. 3: 9) KJV Story book

. . . . because he does not wish24 for any25 to perish . . . . (2 Peet. 3: 9) NET Story book

. . . . not wishing that any one should perish, . . . . (2 Pet. 3: 9) E. Diaglott Story book

At 5/13/2013 1:22:58 PM, medic0506 wrote:
and is in no possible way a Biblical doctrine.
You are clueless and a false preacher and Devil according to your own Story book as shown above!

LMAO@those like YOU!

Your mentor moi!
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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5/14/2013 6:59:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/13/2013 9:42:11 PM, Suqua wrote:
At 5/13/2013 11:14:15 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
The bible describes a place where bad people and unbelievers will be tortured for eternity. So I have a few questions. First, is hell really what most people think it is? Second, is is ethical to torture people forever?

Its not what most, even Christians, believe. No it is not ethical to torture people forever.

You contradict the and old testament , both of which you are supposed to take your doctrine form if you're a Jesus Believer.

Not because you don't like something can you say it's unethical!
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/14/2013 7:06:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2013 1:41:21 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 5/13/2013 4:09:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/13/2013 4:04:13 PM, Anti-atheist wrote:
If god says its ethical then its ethical

No one takes you seriously.

http://thedailyshow.mtvnimages.com...

He happens to make a point. That would be smarter if you could answer statements instead of members.

Actually, he doesn't make a point, he merely invoke a dilemma:

http://en.wikipedia.org...
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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5/14/2013 7:22:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2013 7:06:03 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/14/2013 1:41:21 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 5/13/2013 4:09:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/13/2013 4:04:13 PM, Anti-atheist wrote:
If god says its ethical then its ethical

No one takes you seriously.

http://thedailyshow.mtvnimages.com...

He happens to make a point. That would be smarter if you could answer statements instead of members.

Actually, he doesn't make a point, he merely invoke a dilemma:

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Isn't this making a point?Who is any of us to say what is ethical and what is notAnd if we accept there is a God , who are we to Judge how ethical he is, when we know about him jus a little and he knows about us everything?It is better to say Eternity in Hell is Rude, very rude, extremely rude, than say unethical !
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/14/2013 7:35:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2013 7:22:27 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 5/14/2013 7:06:03 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/14/2013 1:41:21 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 5/13/2013 4:09:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/13/2013 4:04:13 PM, Anti-atheist wrote:
If god says its ethical then its ethical

No one takes you seriously.

http://thedailyshow.mtvnimages.com...

He happens to make a point. That would be smarter if you could answer statements instead of members.

Actually, he doesn't make a point, he merely invoke a dilemma:

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Isn't this making a point?

No, it isn't. You see, AA is a troll. He is only pretending to be this stupid. He is a Poe, meaning nothing he says is his legitimate, actual opinion. And no one takes him seriously.

Who is any of us to say what is ethical and what is not

We are. The people who coined and defined what is and isn't ethic.

And if we accept there is a God , who are we to Judge how ethical he is, when we know about him jus a little and he knows about us everything?

Again, we are. We judge people all the time without having all the information. Our society wouldn't function without it. If God has a defense, then it's to him to provide it.

It is better to say Eternity in Hell is Rude, very rude, extremely rude, than say unethical !

It's the most unethical thing there is.
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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5/14/2013 8:20:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/13/2013 7:00:12 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Who sets ethics ? if you mean your ethics I don't know. but if God ethics then sure.

Eternity in Hell is for infinite sin. Disbelieve and associating partners in worship to God are the infinite sins, that allow one to grill in Hell for good.

Two questions: How is disbelief an infinite sin? How do you tell an infinite sin from a finite sin?
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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5/14/2013 9:06:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2013 8:58:47 AM, Df0512 wrote:
Religion, so convoluted. How can God expect anyone to get it right.

ALL Supernatural god(s) are 100% human fabrication!
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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5/14/2013 9:37:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2013 8:58:47 AM, Df0512 wrote:
Religion, so convoluted. How can God expect anyone to get it right.

I really like this guy. :)
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?